And the price gouging continues, Richardson's lip service notwithstanding. It's not Y2K which wasn't even a bitr, it's worse, we need a congressional investigation of this racket.

Distillate Watch

-- FactFinder (FactFinder@bzn.com), February 11, 2000

Answers

Factfinder

Could you give us documentation saying why this is not Y2K related? This is something I believe we will never really know untill the issue is looked at in the future.

-- Brian (imager@home.com), February 11, 2000.

Brian, before the rollover I would probably have pointed you to some of my older links, now that its past with fewer problems than even us polys expected, I prefer to let you guys provide those of us who called it right with credible evidence(industry, reputable news media, etc)of y2k bug induced oil problems.

-- FactFinder (FactFinder@bzn.com), February 11, 2000.

I prefer to let you guys provide those of us who called it right...

Um, I think we "doomers" called it right on the oil supply chain. At least, that's the way it looks right now. Coincidence? Maybe, but I think that's up to the pollys to demonstrate, because we were right about the oil situation.

-- Steve Heller (stheller@koyote.com), February 12, 2000.

Steve, I choose to like you, but I gotta say "nonsense", you called y2k problems oil (and in power, and in banking, and in...airplanes, lol). And today, doomers and Paula Gordon are claiming y2k date/stamp problems in TCP/IP packet wrappers, roflmao.

There were no significant problems that disrupted power, oil, or banking. For you to have the gaul to say "doomers had it right" is absolutely hilarious, I horse laugh in your face, lol. Post your credible proof of y2k bugs causing severe oil problems here in this thread. I will check in tommorow.

-- FactFinder (FactFinder@bzn.com), February 12, 2000.

Seems to be a lotta planes falling from the sky lately.

-- Porky (Porky@in.cellblockD), February 12, 2000.

FF,

It was your choice to come here and piss in our coffee cup... so....

Please tell us why you think a warmer than usual winter in the NE, and then a three day storm would cause shortages in the oil industry.... love to hear that one :-)

Oops !!!... there goes another refinery

-- Casper (c@no.yr), February 12, 2000.

one more clue.. "scram"

-- Casper (c@no.yr), February 12, 2000.

And of course..... the NG problems have nothing to do with.. dare I say it?.. the price at the pump :-)

-- Casper (c@no.yr), February 12, 2000.

FactFinder, it's not even about shortages. It's about how the shortages are playing out.

Why does Azerbaijan, an oil rich country, literally swimming in oil, have to now import oil?

Why does the midwest and Texas have to limp by on far less propane production than normal? Brine builds up when you pump too hard. Funny that metering problems were cited in their list of problems contributing to the lack of output.

Why did Mobil declare Forece Majeure in Singapore?

Why did Saudi Arabia announce (today - Friday) that they will cut back 25% output in March? Don't they want to make money in an overheated market with the best spot prices since the war? Do they want to start WWIII?

Why did Russia, Ukraine, Zimbabwe, Azerbijan and Nigeria all declare national level fuel and power emergencies during the first 30 days after the rollover? And not one before the rollover - not one that I can remember, anyway.

I think there is a valid reason to question the highly dubious reasons why all of the above (and much more) have happened right after rollover. I'm not of the opinion that it's all due to 00. I just think that a portion of the lost production is due to 00 (portion size unknown) and that it needs to be acknowledged as a possibility.

People over at csy2k cannot deal with even the **posssibility** that 00 has merely contributed a portion of the production problems. They simply don't believe that date problems exist in emebeddeds. I can't understand the position. It seems closed minded and begging a lot of the facts staring us in the face:

There is no cold snap to blame in Zimbabwe.

There is no OPEC to blame in Azerbaijan.

There is no brine to blame if flow metering is working.

There is no **anything** to blame but technical issues when Clark Oil can't stay up and running.

-- paul leblanc (bronyaur@gis.net), February 12, 2000.

Post your credible proof of y2k bugs causing severe oil problems here in this thread.

Sorry, that's not necessary. I, and many others, predicted that there would be supply chain problems with refined fuels due to Y2K issues. We are now seeing problems in this area just like the ones we predicted. Therefore, it's up to you to show that these problems aren't caused by Y2K issues.

-- Steve Heller (stheller@koyote.com), February 12, 2000.

"I, and many others, predicted that there would be supply chain problems with refined fuels due to Y2K issues."

I haven't seen the "due to" evidence yet Steve, you'll be needing the proof of that to lay claim that your predictions were correct.

-- FactFinder (FactFinder@bzn.com), February 12, 2000.

The proof is in the pudding.....

It's easier to believe in technical problems than some type of instant distillate cartel in one region....

-- Will (righthere@home.now), February 12, 2000.

Paul, I haven't seen the reports of all the problems you cite, but for the ones I have seen the causes were never once due to y2k. As far as embedded systems failing due to y2k, it just was never that big a threat - thats what we found, thats what the world found. Still waiting on links to credible sources.

Next?

-- FactFinder (Factfinder@bzn.com), February 12, 2000.

Might I please butt in. Caled an ole time friend, their speciality said might be a problem on aircraft landing gear, and infrareds. Then stuck their I.T brains, back in the sands. Me be-thinks.

-- Does Anyone Really Know (wh@ttime it is.com), February 12, 2000.

"I, and many others, predicted that there would be supply chain problems with refined fuels due to Y2K issues."

I haven't seen the "due to" evidence yet Steve, you'll be needing the proof of that to lay claim that your predictions were correct.

-- FactFinder (FactFinder@bzn.com), February 12, 2000.

FF,

You aren't looking at the whole picture of "fuel".. More Nukes than "normal" are down, Refined oil is short, same for NG.... What do you think the "make up power" is being produced by?.... ya, that's right :-)

#2 diesel and "heating oil"

Does anyone here have info on whether the coal plants are being resupplied.. or just running on "stash" :-)

-- Casper (c@no.yr), February 12, 2000.

"It's easier to believe in technical problems than some type of instant distillate cartel in one region.... " -- Will (righthere@home.now), February 12, 2000.

Well, there appears to be a lot of "official" concern about instant price rises in the NE from the President to Richardson:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/press/press149.html

ENERGY INFORMATION ADMINISTRATION

EIA Reports

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY WASHINGTON DC 20585

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE January 28, 2000

EIA To Begin Weekly Monitoring of Heating Fuels Prices

As a result of recent price spikes and supply problems for heating fuels in the Northeast, the Energy Information Administration (EIA) will begin weekly collection of residential heating oil and propane prices. Energy Secretary Bill Richardson recently stated that "the administration is concerned about high oil prices and, in particular, home heating oil prices in the Northeast and New England." He stated, "the increased reporting will help make certain that Gulf Coast and European oil product suppliers can move heating oil to those who need it most."

Residential heating oil and propane prices are normally collected on a semimonthly basis from October through March through the State Heating Oil and Propane Program (SHOPP), a cooperative agreement between EIA and State Energy Offices located in the Northeast, mid- Atlantic and Midwest. The weekly survey will start with the January 24 collection cycle. The January 24 data will be published on Monday, January 31. EIA will publish the January 31 data on Friday, February 4, and on every Friday thereafter, until the situation abates.

Residential and wholesale heating oil and propane data are published on EIA's Internet Web Site at http://www.eia.doe.gov and selecting "Petroleum, Data Publications, Winter Fuels Reports, Tables C3 - C6" from the menu.

Data are also published in Appendix C of the Weekly Petroleum Status Report available through EIA's National Energy Information Center at 202/586-8800.

-EIA-

EIA Program Contact: Alice Lippert, 202/586-9600 EIA Press Contact: National Energy Information Center, 202/586-8800

EIA--2000-03

File Last Modified: January 28, 2000

Contact: National Energy Information Center Infoctr@eia.doe.gov Phone:(202) 586-8800 FAX:(202) 586-0727

-----------

Ok ladies and gents. Your turn. Post your credible evidence of "Serious Oil Problems Caused by Y2K Bugs" NOW. Right HERE. :)

-- FactFinder (FactFinder@bzn.com), February 12, 2000.

Casper, I work in the nuclear industry, and no shutdowns (or any significant problems that could have caused a shutdown) were due to y2k bugs. Sir, I assure you that a nuke could never hide a y2k bug that caused a shutdown, the NRC would have known it, the world would have known it. Basically, nothing was found that even could have caused such a thing, y2k the "doomsday" event was always a joke to those of us who tested these systems and found ....minor bugs, most not even in the plant equipment, and NOTHING that could have directly caused a US plant shutdown.

-- Fact (FactFinder@bzn.com), February 12, 2000.

Last week, the combination of low stocks, forecasts for colder than normal weather through early February, some barges being delayed due to storms, and unexpected refinery problems set off a price spike in the New York Harbor spot markets

What colder than normal weather?.... what unexpected refinery problems?

Do they mean the higher than average fires and shut downs?. even running into last year?

Damn... there goes another pipeline :-( it's just a statistical Fluke :-)

-- Casper (c@no.yr), February 12, 2000.

Again proof in the pudding... the distilllate price rise speaks for itself. Take a look at catalyst metal prices lately? You cannot see that as a clue? do you know how a cat cracker works? how it's controlled? I do ... and your assertion that control systems are not playing a role in this shortage appears wishful.

Your last post states "unexpected refinery problems" now do you have proof of what type of problems these are?

-- Will (righther@home.now), February 12, 2000.

Casper, I work in the nuclear industry, and no shutdowns (or any significant problems that could have caused a shutdown) were due to y2k bugs. Sir, I assure you that a nuke could never hide a y2k bug that caused a shutdown, the NRC would have known it, the world would have known it. Basically, nothing was found that even could have caused such a thing, y2k the "doomsday" event was always a joke to those of us who tested these systems and found ....minor bugs, most not even in the plant equipment, and NOTHING that could have directly caused a US plant shutdown.

-- Fact (FactFinder@bzn.com), February 12, 2000.

FF,

That wasn't my point... there are more nukes down than normal.. there have been more refinery problems than normal..... more pipeline problems than normal... more NG problems than normal.... and we have a heating crisses in the NE !

There are high prices in the NE, all blamed on a 3 day storm in a fairly mild winter and something that OPEC supposedly did last year..

Bet CPR will wish he'd bought a big GENSET and a stash of diesel this next summer :-)

-- Casper (c@no.yr), February 12, 2000.

1) Casper- coal trains are moving at about the normal rate here in Cleve, for Centerior gen station down town.

2) Interesting that they slipped in the fact that refineries are in the market in order to fulfill contracts. wonder why they couldn't fulfill contracts, unless this is the kind of practice that happens all the time.

3) the cold is actually right on the historical average, though it IS cooler than the last couple of mild years.

chuck

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), February 12, 2000.

Besides which, this is the HOME of the Tinfoil Hat Conspiracy Club. Gee HOW DID WE EVER MISS the colusion among the distributors, and their STUPENDOUS ability to keep their tanks EMPTY when EVERYONE is willing to pay HUGE prices.

Chuck

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), February 12, 2000.

Thanx Chuck,

I wish more would chime in with local stuff, like RR info, and shipping stuff...

I really do think there is a link between all the shut downs of the "power plants" (nukes/fires/expolsions) and " the price of gas"... and I don't think it a "stat fluke"

Tell Mom she never calls.....

-- Casper (c@no.yr), February 12, 2000.

WTF is wrong with this picture? It IS the year 2000 according to the gregorian calender is it not? Things are not looking good fot TWAWKI are they? when this board is no longer accessible and noone can afford to fill their tanks to get to their jobs and noone can get money out of their stock portfolios or bank accounts will be the day that all the "show me the proof" idiots will even start to acknoweledge that there is a fu#*ing problem. the "proof" foolish humans will be in your demise! dont come a knocking on my door because I only have enough for my family and a very few beloved neighbors. I really cannot believe you fools, If death were knocking on your door you would ask for a friggin ID badge just before your soul was sucked out of your body wouldnt you. Jeez, what a bunch of maroons!!!

-- does it matter???? (I_am_me@home.calm), February 12, 2000.

FF

I wasn't into giving you grief over my question but wondering about your take on the subject.

And when I mention Y2K problems, it doesn't only mean North America (I have heard of no oil shortages in Canada) but elsewhere. It just seems odd that oil would be such a problem in the middle of winter.

Not only is a Y2K failure due to systems in a plant but also in the longer range of economics and supply and demand.

The question has to be asked Why Now??

PS I openly stated my confidence in power production pre rollover and even got called an idiot on the top of the forum for my convictions so settle down eh??

-- Brian (imager@home.com), February 12, 2000.

I love the folks who pick handles like "Fact Finder" and then begin to spout off without a SINGLE fact.

You rarely see them comment on posts about a county payroll system or a city DMV problem, but when the biggies like oil and airlines pop up they are like flies on you know what.

Now this NITWIT is going to find someone or something to blame other than possible y2k failures.

Notice one thing here folks, "Fact Finder" will NEVER admit that anything to do with oil industry problems may be y2k related.

Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), February 12, 2000.

I don't think we will ever hear anyone claim any problem was Y2K ... especially the oil & gas crowd. If they did, they would be faced with lawsuits all over the place for negligence for not having fixed a problem they knew about! The biggest FACT on Y2K oil/energy problems will be seen in the price as the stockpiles continue to draw down. When Saudi says they will cut production by 25% ... that sounds more like motivation from production/flow problems than wanting to get the whole world mad at you when faced with $60 oil.

-- FF2 (FF2@aol.com), February 12, 2000.

Wow, this post by FF was a classic example of smoke screen. Let's see, he blames it onprocessing companies and speculators.

But, FF, where's the proof. Your claims are that it wasn't Y2k related, then you proceed to smear the people who are busting their butts trying to keep their neighbors warm. Some of these companies that have been caught between the NY waterfront and the fuel oil tanks will go out of business -- but you would attack them and demand a congressional investigation.

Have no no shame at all?

Would you do anything to engage in a debate, including smear innocent people......all the while dodging the real issues?

Yes, of course you would. You're that kind of guy.

-- (4@5.6), February 12, 2000.

Brian, No problem, we all throw in our two cents here for free, right? Ray, well, I was ridiculed a bit back in '99 when I stated that there would be no significant problems in the electric power industry and posted many industry links stating that embedded systems were not a significant threat. Was I right, was the industry right? Absolutely. There nature of control systems and the incidental use (in most cases) of date functions means that there never was the potential for widespread significant problems in power, oil, or general industry. DIdn't happen sir, and I'm still looking for the credible sources....

-- FactFinder (david@bzn.com), February 12, 2000.

4@5.6, I didn't originate the price gouging theory (and hey, if its not price gouging, then why are NE prices ovr 50% higher than the west coast and SE ?).Try this:

Tuesday January 25, 11:06 pm Eastern Time

Consumers Affected by Fuel Costs By DENISE LAVOIE AP Business Writer

"While some people accepted the supply-and-demand theory, others suggested there is some price-gouging going on. As a result, officials in several states are investigating the higher prices."

``We have clear indications that there are surcharges on bills, nondelivery of product, possible anti-competitive actions and lack of required notices of shortages -- all of which may show violations of law,'' said Connecticut Attorney General Richard Blumenthal.

Thomas Prescott, of Johnny Prescott and Son Oil Co. in Concord, N.H., said any so-called shortage is one created to make money.

``There is no war in the Mideast, no refineries are down, there is no major explosion in the market,'' he said. ``It is a normal winter in terms of degree days, and a cold snap of six to eight days should not force prices up one nickel.''

Your turn. Post the y2k bug evidence here. :)

-- FactFinder (david@bzn.com), February 12, 2000.

Ray, I myself have tested and found y2k problems, so it's silly to say I won't "admit" them. The problem is, almost all were minor and none would have come close to causing a plant problem.

Now, if you were to find a couple of credible sources indicating that there are indeed y2k bugs that have shut down oil refineries, crippled tankers, etc., then I will be more than happy to admit that there are serious y2k bug problems in the oil industry. I just won't admit such a thing because they exist.....in someones fantasies....

Still waiting on the links to credible evidence of said fantasized y2k bugs. :)

-- FactFinder (FactFinder@bzn.com), February 12, 2000.

gas prices have actually gone down at a station near my house.

-- castor (c@n.w), February 12, 2000.

FF:

This is a beaut:

"``There is no war in the Mideast, no refineries are down, there is no major explosion in the market,'' he said. "

end quote.

No refineries down? You need a better source, FF.

API reports confirm dimenished output, lowest since 1993. Refineries and pipelines down with mechanical failures cannot meet the opportunity of higher bids.

Price gouging? The oil market is an open auction. Ship pulls into NYH, highest bidder gets the cargo. This is not rocket science.

-- Tom Beckner (tbeckner@xout.erols.com), February 12, 2000.

My dear fact

Sir, i do not really feel like being on the key board over much this morning. But I will (for you). If you do not think that the refineries and pipe lines are not having problems...Pick up your tool box, meters etc. And hasten thy self down towards the Gulf Coast. Contact DD1 ( she is buried up to her neck in it). She'll put you to work on some FOF jobs. The boys have all been going at it since the first, and they can use the help.

Otherwise you are just farting in the wind, and are not much more than a whore house commando. The illusion that the embeddd chips would all fail with-in a few hours time either side of the roll over hour, was at that time, and is now. A fairy tail.

And yes. Fact "o" Finder! I could quote you some places and companies hiring..But with what has transpired with RC and the kid who published his father's delimma ( a nuke problem) on this forum..And a consequent reply from a nuke plant person (published on this forum by that offical) for the kid to tell his father to call into work! I will not do so, because I do not want such calls to me. "Fact" old buddy, I do believe you are a shill.

"As for me...I shall finish the Game"!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Shakey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

-- Shakey (in_a_bunker@forty.feet), February 12, 2000.

Chuck, Maybe you don't see the doubling (and higher) of heating oil in some parts of the NE as evidence of price gouging and an inept national policy on energy, but those who live there do.

I thought that this issue was worthy of discussion, but it appears that many can't see beyond the "y2k bug" issue. Some companies are reporting significant increases in profits due to the distillate market (and overall oil market) price increases.

Read this:

Company Press Release SOURCE: HEAT USA

HEAT USA Sends White House 20,000 Petitions from Heating Oil Consumers Demanding Release of the Strategic Petroleum Reserve NEW YORK, Jan. 25 /PRNewswire/ -- More than 20,000 petitions from homeowners in the Northeast urging the Clinton-Gore administration to take immediate action to help relieve the heating oil energy crisis will be delivered to the White House on Wednesday (January 26) by HEAT USA, the country's largest fuel-buying cooperative. The petitions request that the President release at least 5% of the country's Strategic Petroleum Reserves (SPR). Doing so would counter the dire economic consequences of OPEC's reduced production levels, major oil refiners' shortsighted ``just-in-time'' inventory systems and the natural gas utilities forcing their commercial ``interruptible'' customers to switch from natural gas to heating oil because of natural gas shortages.

Consumers are feeling the effects of a 90% increase in wholesale oil prices over the past week and a more than 200% increase from a year ago. HEAT USA spearheaded the petition drive to emphasize to the Clinton-Gore administration that the price increase is devastating to working families, the poor and seniors on fixed incomes.

``The President must act now to send a strong message that he will not allow OPEC and the multi-national oil refiners to profiteer at the expense of American consumers,'' states Tim Irving, Executive Director of HEAT USA. ``Cutbacks in crude oil production and in refinery capacity have placed consumers in a very vulnerable position. Without immediate action by the President, our only hope of relief is a spell of warm weather, which is a lot to hope for in January.''

Since HEAT USA was founded in 1985, it has grown to represent 25,000 homeowners and small businesses. The cooperative is committed to providing its members with low prices on heating oil and free service contracts, as well as being an advocate for heating oil consumers. HEAT serves homeowners in New York, New Jersey, Rhode Island and Connecticut.

SOURCE: HEAT USA

-----

-- FactFinder (david@bzn.com), February 12, 2000.

Shakey, So far I've been called a nitwit and a shill. If this is the best you can do for "credible evidence", I'll pass ;)

-- FactFinder (david@bzn.com), February 12, 2000.

Another point Chuck, I never claimed a conspiracy, thats the doomer style, not mine. I believe that its more a case of oportunistic price gouging in a tight market.

Haven't seen a single credible post of y2k bugs shutting down oil yet, maybe you could post one chuck? And then again, maybe not...

-- FactFinder (david@bzn.com), February 12, 2000.

Factfinder wrote: In particular, refinery distillate production was less than demand this fall as margins were squeezed by high crude oil prices. The higher demand was met with stocks, causing inventories to fall to their now low levels.

My response: I believe that the crisis was probably precipitated by a combination of refining problems, JIT inventories and an unexpected cold snap. There were several refinery problems in the Northeast just prior to the cold wave's arrival (which was unexpected after 3 mild winters in a row). The timing of these events could not have been more conducive to supply problems.

The combination of prolonged refinery problems with bad weather all but gaurantees a supply crunch. When the weather is that bad, an area like NY Harbor can experience problems with it's offshore loading locations. I believe most of the east coast refineries have locations off NJ and DE where they conduct lightering ops and while the weather may be fine in the harbor, it can be quite gnarly 10-20 nm offshore.

Now, as to whether the refining problems were a result of Y2K problems? Who knows. I know for certain that the public will never know one way or another. We should all stop for a moment and thank God the problem was not as bad as anticipated/predicted (don't think we're entirely out of the woods regarding dirty power this summer) because I maintain that there were signifigant portions of my industry which did VERY little if anything real to remediate the problem.

In any event, Factfinder maybe you can explain to our readers here why the Saud's would risk cutting their term contracts to Europe and the US by a rather signifigant amount at a politically sensitive time?

-- Gordon (g_gecko_69@hotmail.com), February 12, 2000.

Well "Fact" old buddy...I figured that that would be your respondse. Incidently, a refinery friend of mine says the the Stretgic (sp) reserve, which is in salt does. Is hard for them to crack (they used some of the feed stocks from it during DS)..Any way, they don't not want to have to reconfigure their plant(s) to process it.

Noticed you did not deny the W.H.C. title though...Just like a REM LOL

"As for me...I shall finish the Game"!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Shakey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

-- Shakey (in_a_buker@forty.feet), February 12, 2000.

FactFinder,

So what you're saying is that the whole, worldwide establishment and PTB "fantasized" a one trillion dollar problem ($1,000,000,000,000) This includes the active and conspicuous participation of the UN, the World Bank, the IMF, the White House, the DoD, the US Senate, etc. I have serious problems accepting that.

As far as the "credible evidence", how about legal consequences? Who would in his right mind accept it's Y2K? It would be outright negligence you know. Would we agree at least on that Fact Finder?

Let's be civilized about this, O.Kay?

I'm saying that Y2K exists, so do you. But for some unknown reason you can't accept Y2K can get to be important, although the theory is there to support the possibility of impact. Oil production and distribution problems have taken place, as predicted. Refineries are not doing well, your posted report says so in very clear terms. Then may I ask, what is YOUR explanation for this? Should we call them "Incredibly High Statistical Incidence Of Accidents And Failures Of Unknown Origin Some Months Before And After The Century Date Change Absolutely Unrelated To Y2K" ??

Fine with me BUT... beware that denying the etiology and epidemiology of the problem (Y2K) will only make things far worse. Possibly unmanageably worse.

-- George (jvilches@sminter.com.ar), February 12, 2000.

Fact F

If I remember correctly DD1 stated before the roll over that gasoline would go up (she has been correct) she also stated that we'd be lucky if we just lost 30% of production (we're getting close right now). And that we could loose up to 70% of production by mid or last part of April (How much is 25%, in BBl per day, from the Saudis out put to us?).

The Vens have as much as told us to go wistle in the wind. The oil companies still remember what happened to them after the oil crises of the 70's. And to a company, they are shaking in their collective boots, knowing that pin heads 'Like you?" Are going to schream that they are price fixing again!

There have been so many "over pressure" accidents, which have caused ruptures in pipe lines that I have lost count. (All of them, near, either just before or after a digitially controled valve).

But what the hay...My question to you...No matter the cause! At what point to we go "infomagic"? When gas goes to three dollars a gallon? five dollars? When...Not if, but when! Do we go to war; Before we go out? Because no matter what the initial cause my friend. The end result will be the same.

"As for me...I shall finish the Game"!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Shakey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

-- Shakey (in_a_bunker@forty.feet), February 12, 2000.

FactFinder, you couldn't find your anus with a full length mirror and a searchlight. Have you not seen the hundreds of y2k related disruptions amassing that have been documented on this forum? Do you not think that their combined effect will be a detriment to the world economy?

Sure, you pollys were right about an Infomagic scenario, which only 1 in 100 of the posters here expected anyhow. Now lets see how well you assholes fare when we are plunged into a depression, which if you remember FactFinder, was what the majority of forum participants predicted a year ago.

-- LessonLearner (@ .), February 12, 2000.

Lesson Learner, you ain't exactly the fastest car in the garage are 'ya? Please don't try to bring this forum down to your level. There are many other places to blab off at the mouth so why not go there instead?

-- Lerner's Shoe Wearer (++@##.$$), February 12, 2000.

ShoeWearer, why don't you give the keyboard a rest and take your dickbeaters back outside to the monkey bars.

-- Lesson Learner (@ .), February 12, 2000.

Shakey,

Finish the Game? OK, I'll PLAY the Game. Can you tell me exactly what a "digitially controled valve" is? I've worked with solenoid valves, manual valves, air operated valves, motor operated valves and such but never heard of one of these. How exactly do they work? Why would they require a date imput? How do they respond if they misinterpret a 00 date? Do they open? Close? Go back and forth? Please enlighten us with your wisdom.

-- Lucy (juicylucy2@usa.net), February 12, 2000.

I continue to be amazed that people such as factfinder who are convinced that Y2K was not a problem continue to visit this forum. If one wants to protest against the oil companies, why select this forum? Oil companies remember what happened in the 70's and they don't want this attention. The problem is not an attempt from the oil companies to make a quick profit at the expense of their long term reputation. They are not that stupid.

-- Dave (dannco@hotmail.com), February 12, 2000.

FF

"I didn't originate the price gouging theory."

That, Fact Finder is what is known as a cop out. You make the statement accusing people of price gouging, then weasel out with, "but I didn't originate that theory." BS -- you're spreading this stuff around. You're the one making the statements to this effect. Take responsibility for your actions.

The reason so many people resort to calling you names is that you're not here to discuss things -- in spite of your lies to the contrary. Yes, FF, lies.

You come here to slam others, and when you get called, you try to crawl out. You are a very sad person.

-- (4@5.6), February 12, 2000.

We are all sad people. That is why we spend so much time here.

-- Sad PeRsOn (sad@at.news), February 12, 2000.

Some interesting and often amusing responses....how dare I ask for credible sources of those y2k bugs causing y2k oil problems, lol.

Gordon Gecko, you have credibility with me regarding your knowledge of the oil industry, so if you find good evidence of a y2k bug having caused a refinery shutdown, I would consider it worthy of further investigation. And I don't know the answer to your question, I would defer to you in such questions, I only follow the y2k aspects in embedded systems. FYI, the quote you attribute to me was actually the EIA slide 11, I just added the bold.

George, theres a bit of a disupte as to the dollars spend, but I think the 200 billion figure (100 billion US, 100 billion rest of world) is the most likely. This is PART of the reason there WERENT significant problems sir. The other part is that the nature of y2k bugs in embedded systems wasn't as a big a threat as first speculated- speculations were wrong, basically.

"Lessons", the biggest lesson I learned is that fluff postings such as yours are not credible sources - hundreds of "disruptions"? Well now, that sound REAL bad....until you look at exactly what has been reported. See any "distruptions" in power in the US sir? Nope. Any evidence of disruptions due to Y2K bugs at refineries? Nope, no evidence presented. Most bug reports have been minor, some more serious but no major "disruptions" of ANY entire plants or infrastructure. Fluff ball...out of here!

Sorry gents, DD1light wont do for credible references, her 40-60 percent failure of refineries DUE TO Y2K etc. never happened, her technical "descripitions" were always amusing but were silly to those of us who work with control systems, and a handful of shutdowns of various causes NOT of a Y2K related nature is hardly "evidence"

Dave, I saw at least half a dozen reports of significant profit increases by petrolium product companies. Heres one:

Tuesday January 25, 12:30 pm Eastern Time

Valero Q4 income up sharply on better margins, lower cost NEW YORK, Jan 25 (Reuters) - Valero Energy Corp.(NYSE:VLO - news) said on Tuesday its fourth quarter 1999 earnings rose sharply, due to improved profit margins from the sale of refined oil products and lower operating costs.

San Antonio, Texas-based Valero, the third largest independent U.S. oil refiner, reported net income of $16.5 million or $0.29 per share compared to a net loss of $85.7 million or $1.53 per share in the fourth quarter of 1998.

The results were linked to a pre-tax inventory write-down to market value of $133.2 million, Valero said.

Reported earnings by far exceeded the mean of Wall Street analysts' forecasts at $0.09 per share, according to First Call/Thomson Financial.

Operating income was $33.9 million for the fourth quarter of 1999, compared to operating income of $6.4 million for the same period last year, before the inventory write-down. For 1999, operating income was $69.1 million, compared to operating income of $119.7 million for 1998.

Valero said the increase in operating income for the quarter was primarily due to increased crude oil throughput volumes at its five refineries, lower cash operating costs and improved margins from the sale of refined petroleum products.

``Our successful efforts to reduce costs and improve operations helped to offset the earnings impact from high crude oil prices during the quarter,'' said Chairman and Chief Executive Officer Bill Greehey.

``Cash operating costs for the quarter were down over $7 million compared to last year's fourth quarter, and throughput volumes were up 6 percent. For the year, cash operating costs at our Gulf Coast refineries were down over $40 million,'' he said.

He said refining fundamentals were currently very encouraging as crude oil and product inventories in the U.S. have fallen dramatically year-on-year. This is largely due to global output cuts by key producers to boost crude prices, which have more than doubled since early last year.

``As market conditions and refining margins strengthen, we will be in a solid position to aggressively pursue major growth opportunities and add significant value for our shareholders,'' Greehey added.

For the whole of 1999, Valero reported net income of $14.3 million, or $.25 per share, compared to a 1998 net loss of $47.3 million, or $.84 per share, after pre-tax inventory write-downs of $170.9 million.

Valero owns and operates five refineries in Texas, Louisiana and New Jersey with a combined capacity of about 785,000 barrels per day.

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So after a day or so, I return to look at the links to credible sources indicating y2k bugs shutting down refineries. As usual, lots of fluff, stuff, and puff, but no facts.

Time to take off the tin foil hats gentlemen. Games over, pollies were right. Your momma's should wash Y2K Pro's socks, lol.

-- FactFinder (FactFinder@bzn.com), February 13, 2000.

FF said "Sorry gents, DD1light wont do for credible references, her 40-60 percent failure of refineries DUE TO Y2K etc. never happened"

We are, last time I saw, at 84.5% of refinery capacity... IN THE FIRST MONTH AND A HALF IN THE YEAR 2000 !!!!!! I hope DD1light is wrong with her figure of 40-60%, but we're well on our way.

FF also said "So after a day or so, I return to look at the links to credible sources indicating y2k bugs shutting down refineries. As usual, lots of fluff, stuff, and puff, but no facts.

Time to take off the tin foil hats gentlemen. Games over, pollies were right. Your momma's should wash Y2K Pro's socks, lol."

Well let me zip right out and get that press release that it was a Y2k problem and therefor the insurance company isn't going to cover our losses and the cost from the lawsuits.... be right back :-)

Perhaps you'll enlighten us as too why the Saudi's cut our oil 25% for next month and Europe's by, what was it, I forgot, 40%?

Why would they do that when oil is hovering almost at $30 a barrel and expected to go higher next week?... could it be (whisper it... production problems?)

-- Casper (c@no.yr), February 13, 2000.

As you wish Casper/Netghost/whoever: http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl? msg_id=002Z3q

-- FactFinder (FactFinder@bzn.com), February 14, 2000.

FactFinder, how can you be so sure of yourself ????

-- George (jvilches@sminter.com.ar), February 15, 2000.