With all the speculation as to which way the markets would go I thought I'd check out what the planets had to say. They've always been reliable indicators as to human affairs and I thought I'd apply it to the topic at hand. (And no, I'm not about to debate the merits/validity of astrology. Much like Y2k you either GI or you don't!)

It took a little bit of digging but I found the origination date of the NASDAQ (February 8, 1971) and cast a chart. Now the first thing that jumped out at me is what's called the Saturn Return. My initial reaction was "This puppy's goin' DOWN!" Now let me explain why...

Saturn is a planet known for loss, limitation, hardship and difficulty. Every 29 years or so it completes its cycle and ends up where it started and a new cycle begins. In human situations this generally creates a *drastic* change of events. If you look back, sometime between the ages of 28 - 30 something happened to you to knock you off course and send you in an entirely new direction, dratically changing the status quo and your worldview in the process. Perhaps it was a marriage, the start of a new business, a move to a new city, a new job, an accident or illness...whatever it was, it was BIG (and not necessarily an easy transition. Saturn has a way of knocking you up-side the head if you're not paying attention and it can be kick-ass when it needs to be.)

Now these same principles can be applied to the NASDAQ as well, which is why I said this critter is going to fall off its pedestal and take a nosedive. It can't be helped. There will undoubtedly be a drastic change in its direction, especially since Saturn is considered one of the key players in financial astrology.

This Saturn Return (difficult change in direction)is occuring in the chart's 1st house, representative of "image", and in the sign of Taurus, whose keyword is "productivity". If you connect the dots you can get a picture portraying "a difficult change of direction affecting productivity and creating a negative image." Can you say "crash"?

"WHEN?" you might ask. Well, Saturn will complete its cycle during the first two weeks of April. The effects are in play right now and the influence will continue to be felt for months afterwards. The "trigger", however, will be Mars (energy, action, aggression) when it joins up with the natal Saturn on Friday April 14th. Kapow!

But the real kicker is Uranus (unpredictable, explosive, change) triggering the Sun (focus) in the 11th house of "the public", giving Joe Sixpack a rude awakening, as it completely takes him by surprise.

So according to the signs in the heavens there is no doubt (in MY mind anyway) that Bubble.com is going to burst in the months to come. But we already knew that, didn't we? ;-)

-- LunaC (LunaC@LunaC.com), January 31, 2000

Answers

Fabulous post, Luna; it sounds like you're going to be loaded shorting the market at the right time. Sorry to hear about the unpredictable, explosive change Uranus is going to trigger in the public's house. Try pepto bismol and Depends, I guess.

-- Imso (lame@prepped.com), January 31, 2000.

As you should know, no transit is inherently good or bad; Some have reputations, but no one, no person, no country, no corporate entity is a slave or victim to either its natal chart or transits. Transits represent the cycles of life, and talk to tendencies, but in all my experience I have not seen anyone categorically respond in predictable fashion to a transit.

A Saturn transit of the first house does not necessarily mean bad things-Saturn the Malefic, in my opinion, is shedding its reputation. I have seen it act in many charts as a bringer of good news, such as people realizing they were in the wrong job or wrong relationship, since it has the tendency to make us see what really matters here on earth, and acts as a counter-balance to Jupiterian and neptunian energy, which has a tendency to delude us.

There may be a correction in store; Saturn does allow us to re- evaluate things in our life from a purely practical standpoint. It is possible that IPO's that come out around the time of the return do not skyrocket, and those that have gone up in the last year from point of offering may make a strident correction. All in all, I just feel it is inaccurate to state things the way you have, BUT we are all entitled to an opinion. Have a good day.

-- futureshock (gray@matter.com), January 31, 2000.

Does Nancy Reagan concur? What about Shirley McLaine?

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), January 31, 2000.

Futureshock, what happened during *your* Saturn Return? Are you going to tell me you sailed right through without some type of change occuring? I'd find that highly improbable! The point of my post is that Saturn is going to bring change. A *dramatic* change however it decides to manifest. What circumstances occur and how it truly plays out is anybody's guess but the end result is undeniable. How that change is interpreted depends upon one's vantage point to begin with. The folks heavily invested in the market will be crushed by a big loss while those who are looking for some reality and stability (a Saturn trait) will be relieved by the outcome. It's all relative. But that there will be a surprising change (the Uranian influence) is a certainty IMO.

In financial astrology, which is essentially mundane astrology, Saturn still holds its place among the malefics and traditionally brings the markets down. I didn't write the rules, I just call 'em as I see 'em. I think you're trying to compare apples and oranges by applying the rules of financial/mundane astrology to that of human/interpersonal astrology. But we can continue this discussion after April 14th if you like.

-- LunaC (LunaC@LunaC.com), January 31, 2000.

Sail through?? not quite. The major change was I reversed years of drug abuse when I had my saturn return. It helped me overcome my natal Neptune-Sun conjunction. I would love to continue a dialouge after 4/14; yes the "rules" are the "rules", and you are right that I do not have as much experience in mundane astrology-BUT my gut, which I rely a lot upon in doing readings, tells me the changes that will occur will not be as dramatic as you say-Even with the Uranian influence-Again, Uranus brings sudden change most of the time, but it is certainly not always bad. It's good to see another astrologer here- Maybe we will both get flamed and called heretics by the right wing on this board!! Peace.

-- futureshock (gray@matter.com), January 31, 2000.

LunaC,

I know just enough about Astrology to be considered "dangerous." However, I find your assumptions to be well founded. A Saturn return is a Saturn return and there's going to be change, like it or not. Using your date of 2/8/1971, by the Numbers, this is a year that is out of joint for NASDAQ. If there are problems it may be in the area of housing, construction, health care, government, and so on. There would also be problems in communications.

Also, by the Numbers, I would put my money on the months of March/April for problems to occur.

Interesting post, LunaC. Hope we don't get burned too badly. This is all FWIW.

-- Richard (Astral-Acres@webtv.net), January 31, 2000.

---using the ver simple glitch chart, and projecting into the very near future, around the middle of march is when we go over the 50 % range, where everyone will be experiencing y2k-like 'glitches" in their daily lives at a 50% rate. it gets much worse after that, the curve will go up. So, this mundane, simple statistic look ahead concurs with this astrology deal. This is also the time frame that the programmer doomers have predicted for the data corruption to be at critical mass, too. It all comes together during that time frame. who knows, but it looks like it's coming. time for more preps, and l0ong range economic survival planning as well. good time to get out of debt, looks to me, lot of unemployment and lost retirement "schemes" based on electronic future promises of money. Someone needs to do the actual work, to produce a real good or a real service, for any of these stock retirement schemes to work. The numbers aren't there at all, that's easy to see. We can't have 75% of the population living on welfare, entitlements, employed in any governmental service, or retired and living on electronic promises of future money, it just won't work. That is real tinfoil fantasy land.

-- zog (zzoggy@yahoo.com), January 31, 2000.

Luna,

Isn't the 2nd Saturn return different from the first? Also, the upcoming heavy conjunctions of major planets in the sign of Taurus IMO are a positive influence. It will be interesting to see how it plays out. Lots of earth elements might bring reality to the surface. But, I don't have any earth or Saturn aspects in my natal chart, so who am I to say. LOL

Thanks for your input. =)

~Dee

-- Dee (T1Colt556@aol.com), January 31, 2000.

Well, folks, I'm sorry, but I just don't believe in Astrology.

But then again, I'm a Virgo, and Virgos don't believe in Astrology.

So there.

-- eve (123@4567.com), January 31, 2000.

Sheeeesh...this stuff makes Elliot Wave Theory sound sensible!

Kook

-- Y2Kook (Y2Kook@usa.net), January 31, 2000.

Luna, Futureshock, Richard, thanks for your valuable astrological input. I wish we have more articles on this topic. Do you know, is there a discussion group devoted to financial astrology online? Keep posting!

-- (Kassandra@dreamland.com), January 31, 2000.

A few comments for this,"fun" topic:

Saturn represents contraction, as opposed to expansion (Jupiter). This narrows down the focus, the choices, and is not experienced as a pleasant experience if you are only desiring expansion. At best it's a time to learn a lesson you are trying to ignore. Traders have the wrong approach to contraction in general. Their whole MO is to deny and block contraction wherever possible. This makes me think the lesson they have to learn will not be well received, which is one way of exacerbating a contraction.

In general, denial does not function well when Saturn comes a callin'. For one thing, Saturn contacts cause responsibility to become the focus. It's not a fun or effervecsent experience. It's one where you need to take care of what you normally deny or ignore. The whole profile of a typical 2000 trader is to ignore the bear or the contraction and pretend that manipulating the market can cause constant expansion. That is a volatile mixture when you add a Saturn Return, if you ask me.

The exact date of a trigger is a science that I never could grasp, but it's accepted that Mars is often that trigger. I don't have an ephemeris handy but even if I did I would hesitate to state an exact date. April 14 may look juicy for a Mars trigger, but there could be other factors. Eclipses can also trigger or set up triggers.

Whatever, a Saturn Return is only a relatively easy experience if you are willing to transition to another paradigm (if the current one will no longer function). It still takes a lot of work and willingness to change to do that. What is much worse is fighting it and refusing to change. I think the bubble's existence tells me that NASDAQ is still invested in the old paradigm, and I see no reason why it/they would intentionally transition to something more sensible and sustainable. They are not about sustainability - they are about quick riches. That means it could get quite ugly because there are forces much bigger than human denial based manipulation.

-- PaulL (bronyaur@gis .net), January 31, 2000.

Paul-

Thanks for your post. I've had Saturn in the 12th, soon to leave in June. My wife has had Saturn in the 8th-she was a terror when it reached the mid-point but she has calmed down(it is leaving in May). You have simplified the saturnian energy, and I have found a way to work with it for change. It doesn't make a surprise call anymore. I agree with your assessment of it's affect on traders; I would like to have verified the exact date and TIME and place(NY?) of the incorporation of NASDAQ. I thank LunaC for bringing up the topic- Could she provide a link for the information??

I did not think there would be even 5 of us here, and am surprised we are not under more fire!! Peace.

-- futureshock (gray@matter.com), January 31, 2000.

Kassandra,

Thanks for the kind words, but I am not an astrologer, do use Numbers, and I posted simply to add another discipline to the topic. Odd, that the Astrology and the Numbers seem to be in agreement. But, then maybe not odd at all.

-- Richard (Astral-Acres@webtv.net), January 31, 2000.

Futureshock - we seem to have a Sun/Neptune conjunction in common (45 *seconds* apart in my case.) As for the NASDAQ chart, alas I didn't save the link but I set up the chart for 2/8/71 using New York, New York as the location (73W57, 40N45) and 9:00 am as the time since this is when it first traded and was "born" so to speak.

Dee - This is the first Saturn return for the NASDAQ (1971 + 29 =2000) which is why it's an important shift for this market. The second return it experiences should be a bit softer landing but only because it will have years of experiences and "maturity" behind it to weather the turbulence. As for Taurus, it's considered a money planet (being the natural ruler of the 2nd house) which makes Saturn's position there even more of a portent of things to come, especially with Saturn sitting on the *cusp* of the 2nd house. Also, in matters of money, I've found Taurus to be a bit - ahem - crabbier and stingier than Venus's other child, Libra, which is sometimes too generous for her own good. lol

Richard - numerology and astrology have gone hand-in-hand through the centuries so having them both point to the same conclusion isn't a surpise to me. Every planet has a corresponding number, color and tone, so you can see how the disciplines can be interchangeable.

Just out of curiosity, I also dug up the "birth" data for the DJIA and - you're not going to believe this - but it's got a Saturn OPPOSITION Saturn coming up towards the end of March (4th/10th house axis)with Pluto Opposition Pluto (5th/11th house axis) joining the party. I'll write more about this in detail later for the non-astrologers when I have time but from the looks of it - with all these hard Saturn angles - the markets are in for some very rough sailing in the upcoming months. argh

And many thanks to the rest of the forum participants for allowing this discussion without our asbestos suits on!

-- LunaC (LunaC@LunaC.com), January 31, 2000.

Oops - almost forgot...

Kassandra - The few financial astrology discussion groups I stumbled upon were all "pay us to play" situations but I didn't spend a lot of time searching out other possibilities, which I'm sure exist somewhere in cyberspace. DejaNews may be an area you might want to explore further for discussion groups, or perhaps OneList.

Paul - I agree that exact timing can be tricky but from what I've read regarding financial astrology, Mars is a good timing indicator. Although I must admit, for the past several years when reading personal charts, I've noticed a two month "slippage of time" - things happened at a slightly delayed pace. I've even noticed this with the weather. For example, the East Coast traditionally starts its snowy season in November but here we have the first big storms occuring in January. So the Mars date may - in fact - be THE date for a big tumble, or it may just indicate the "beginning of the end". We'll just have to wait and see. But anticipation is half the fun of getting there, isn't it? ;-)

Many thanks to all of you! I've immensely enjoyed the discussion.

-- LunaC (LunaC@LunaC.com), January 31, 2000.

LunaC,

Time Has Told, and you are vindicated!
Today biggest losses in history all over.
For a while, DOW -700+, N -400+, still ended the worst so far.

Markets Snapshot
DOW -617.78 10305.77 -5.66%
NASDAQ -355.49 3321.29 -9.67%
S&P 500 -83.20 1357.31 -5.78%
BOND 1/16 106 1/2 5.78%
Friday's market close

[Economy/StockMarket] Vindication?

*sigh* we really miss this board!

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), April 14, 2000.

LunaC:

While I do not condone astrology, I do perceive that certain spiritual entities can control the actions of global financial markets.

When I read your post last year, I was immediately struck by the notation of a significant life altering event due to occur between the age of 28 and 30. When I was 28, I had some profound spiritual attacks from demons upon my spirit, and I endured heinous spiritual turmoil until I was delivered from them by Jesus Christ on 9AUG87. I'll never forget those months... ever...

What has happened this Friday is worth bookmarking for future study.

Come Monday 17APR00, there will be massive financial carnage on Wall Street. There will be global ramifications which will reverberate for a long time. Our nation will never be the same.

America is ripe for a great fall.

Prepare for the coming Great Global Depression!

-- dinosaur (dinosaur@williams-net.com), April 14, 2000.

I sure do miss this board too!!!

When I worked for (designing supercomputers) what is now Unisys at the Great Valley facility in Pennsylvania, on the upper right hand corner of EVERY blackboard in the software section was mene, mene, tekel upharson!!! Do Not Erase!!

When the project went under, the gallows humor was that we HAD seen "the handwriting on the wall!!

-- K. Stevens (kstevens@ It ALL went away in January.com), April 14, 2000.

This thread el morte?

-- Philip (lip411@yahoo.com), May 22, 2000.