After reading all the vitriol on this thread for the past few weeks, I have to make a comment here that will most certainly rattle some cages, but I'm going to say it anyway.

Everybody is so concerned about being "right" that we are becoming divided as a people, and stand to have all our rights taken away. Abraham Lincoln once said, "A nation divided against itself cannot stand." Few people realize he was quoting Scripture.

I see in this thread proof positive of how much our nation has divided against itself. While we are busy pointing fingers of blame at each other, our government is occupying themselves in plotting new ways to take our freedoms away, bit by bit, while we are busy arguing, and thus occupied.

We should all step back a bit and look things over with the eye of wisdom, not emotion. Look at what is happening. Some of the worst offenders here are the ones who are determined to be "right" at any cost. Unfortunately, they are also the ones who look the most ignorant as well.

I am going to explain here a key point about Pollys in general. They are like children in their innocence. Educated children, but children, nonetheless. A lot of this mind-set is not their fault. Since FDR, our country has evolved from one which stands for personal freedom into one who is thinking, no, expecting that "the government will take care of me." This common thinking runs through all the Polly dissertations I have been reading on this post.

This pervasive mind-set has been put forth slowly over the past 50 years. Somehow, the Pollys think, when something bad happens, the government will take care of it. I don't have to. I paid into the system. I expect it. All thoughts of personal freedom, responsibility and taking care of oneself don't enter their minds. They won't allow it. It is the unthinkable. They feel safe in that knowledge, that Big Brother will come along and save them.

And why not? Has not government promised us, again and again, if we are good little girls and boys and pay our taxes, THEY will take care of US? I ask, have we lost our Freedom? Have you, personally, lost your knowledge of what Freedom is? Do you have any idea? This is the beginning of Socialism. Pollys, whether they realize it or not, are defending the government's position: Socialism, oppression of free-thinking.

Does anybody remember the quote "the dirty little secret about freedom means, you are on your own" ?? (--Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas) That is, NO government help to you whatsoever.

Yes, maybe the Doomers are onto this better than anyone else, but they are making the big mistake of blaming the Pollys for their naivete. We cannot blame anybody but this delusive system we have allowed and encouraged to take over our lives. After all, we paid into the system, so we expect our entitlements, right? Society now expects Social Security, Medicare, etc. to come through for them and so they don't have to make any long-term plans. Admit it, even you Doomers out there expect the government to pay you back.

Those who do prepare for the worst, and they are the minority, are labeled, lambasted, called all sorts of radical names, right-wing Christian, etc. because there is a real fear of the people's independence in our government today. Our government has somehow become afraid of its own people. They want to disarm us, so this oppression will become final. Tyrannies past have started with this first step.

Not only that, we have paid for the privilege of oppressing ourselves. Nowadays, we can't even put a fishhook into the water without some government (local, state, federal) knowing about it. You have to get a fishing license. Little stuff like that adds up to a great deal of not being able to move your ass left or right without the government knowing all about it. And watching you.

In summary, people, wake up. We have to unite ourselves against this game and not fall into senseless arguments of who is right and who is wrong. While we still have our freedoms, we should use them positively, not to tear each other down. We are still freer than most of the parts of the world, some are still in real slavery. China and Africa are a good examples.

Freedom is not something to take for granted. We should go after our Congressmen and start making them accountable for the unconstitutional, freedom-robbing laws they pass on us, yet still exempt themselves from. They take our tax money and give themselves million-dollar pensions and raises, (for a part-time job!) while we chumps keep arguing and don't notice.

We should demand a decent character of our President and not put up with anyone who lies to us, now and in the future. We should be aware of oppression even in its lowest forms and non-violently disobey. We can do what Gandhi did -- nonviolent, passive resistance to all forms of evil. I don't advocate open, violent war against our government. I am totally against that. I love my country. I don't want to have a hand in destroying it. But if all this arguing keeps up, we will all have a hand in destroying ourselves and our country with it.

I think everyone should get ahold of a copy of the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and READ WHAT IT SAYS. Exercise your rights while you still have them. "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." Get out your history books and find out who said that.

-- Marie (readthis@think.com), January 28, 2000

Answers

I am going to explain here a key point about Pollys in general. They are like children in their innocence. Educated children, but children, nonetheless.

Good point. They are certainly like children in the way they behave. All they need is some re-education.

-- (Steve887@cirstin.org), January 28, 2000.

Made my day Marie, many thanks, it's a keeper!!

Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), January 28, 2000.

Great post!

Just so you don't have to take *all* the flames, I'll add my 2 cents worth.

I have always believed that although it can not be said that all liberals are pollys, I think that most pollys are liberals. They exhibit all the same behavior of wanting to suppress free speech, let the government take care of them, admonish those who try to become self-sufficient, etc. Also, like you said, they are the most childish emotionally. They take pleasure in insulting and berating people just like an elementary school child on the playground. Their "god" is usually government.

As far as preparedness, I saw a great cartoon a while back and if my scanner was working I would post it. Suffice it to say that it consisted of 3 frames. The first showed a pilgrim-era man stockpiling supplies in a cabinet in his home and there was a smile on his face. The next showed a WW2-era man doing the same thing, again with the same smile. The third frame showed a modern-era man doing the exact same thing, except this time he looked worried and the banner across the frame yelled "EXTREMIST!!"

I thought that cartoon said a lot. All through history, the government has encouraged private citizens to prepare for hard times so that they *didn't* have to rely on government. Only in the last 30 or so years has that gone to the opposite end of the scale - ever since liberalism gained a foothold in modern society. Now, if you prepare you are a radical and somehow dangerous. Sad times indeed.


-- Steve Baxter (chicoqh@home.com), January 28, 2000.

Thank you, for your wonderful comments. I saw that cartoon on the old Y2KNewswire.com site. It was wonderful. I think I downloaded it, if you like, I will try to send it to you.

-- Marie (readthis@think.com), January 28, 2000.

So true Marie....Government has tiny bite by tiny bite taken freedom away from us and made us think it's as it should be. Government is supposed to be a servant to the people. I'm all for giving power back to the state and local governments.

The only thing Government should be involved in is defence of our country, a few limited social programs including social security, common sense environmental issues, and certain judicial duties. Federal government should not be( and was never meant to be ) something that entered into the everyday lives of it's citizens.

-- citizen (lost@sea.com), January 28, 2000.

Absolutely right Marie.

Well stated and well said.

Unfortunately, this prescription you give is too-little too late. These idiots WANT Socialism. They "feel" the need to assuage their guilt for our prosperity by supporting programs that rob hard working people of their money to throw at "disadvantaged groups" through programs designed to fail and keep politicians in power.

It's an evil machine that churns it's way towards total tyranny by exterminating individualism in favor of collectivism. Anyone outside the expected behaviors (read; "acting responsibly") set forth by TPTB, is referred to as an "extremist, right-wing intolerant, racist, nutcase that is a danger to himself and society.

This is 35+ years of demonic brainwashing we are witnessing here. We have been duped by the so-called Elites into surrendering our freedoms and rewriting our history so we will be more comfortable with government running our entire lives.

It's too late to turn the tables now. I've never seen so many, so ignorant of our history, so callous of our heritage and so cold to the sacrifices paid to ensure their current prosperity, that they willingly don the shackles of slavery in order to pursue the greed of wealth and personal security on the backs of their countrymen.

That's because they wrongfully assume that the shackles will NEVER be placed on them, just those that have an "unfair advantage."

We are already divided Marie. The Media and Intelligencia Elites have made sure of that over the last three decades.

Give this nation a REAL crisis that produces an national suffering (ala: the '73 gas crisis) and you will see the fissures between us bust wide open.

All we can do now is pray. Pray for mercy and repentance, because one of these days there is going to be a rude awakening for the nation.

-- Just Sharing (notth@titmatt.ers), January 28, 2000.

I understand your point but you also have to realize not everyone shares the same ideals. A pesimistic personality is likely to see doom lurking around every corner and will interpret most of lifes events in this way.

It strikes me as odd that those who do not see a government conspiracy linked to every little trifle in life and don't believe 'Y2K' is anywhere near close to the downfall of society usually receive angry and hostile posts(not to mentio profane) from those who are more pessimistic.

Isn't it a little far fetched for someone who doesnt believe everyone in the government is running this covert secret conspiracy to enslave America to be branded a 'Fascist Swine'?

In general people don't like being around those who are always negative(except other negative people that is).

Birds of a feather flock together-the moral of this message board .

-- Joe (TheRebel12@aol.com), January 28, 2000.

Joe the Rebel-you're right

I think it absolutely sucked when I lost my job three weeks before my wedding in 1998 and the government gave me unemployement check-I wish they had not done that. It really sucks that we have the lowest unemployment rate in 30 years and, I am making more money than I ever have because I work hard, I think it really sucks that women and minorities can now vote, that the government makes loans available to start businesses, attend college, buy a first home-THose conspiratorial bastards!

I think we should go back to those days when we had no net for falling on hard times-after all, the schmucks who lose their jobs- it's their fault-Do we really think that the government is 100% pure evil?? I am a libertarian if anything, and I know the evils of government-I am not pro-government by any means-BUT if you think that the conservative agenda is going to lower crime, continue our prosperity, etc etc than surely God bless you if it is implemented- Cause the underpriviledged are going to lead the revolution.

-- futureshock (gray@matter.com), January 28, 2000.

"After reading all the vitriol on this thread for the past few weeks, I have to make a comment here ..."

WHAT thread?

"I see in this thread proof positive of how much our nation has divided against itself..."

WHAT thread?

"I am going to explain here a key point about Pollys in general. They are like children in their innocence. Educated children, but children, nonetheless. A lot of this mind-set is not their fault. Since FDR, our country has evolved from one which stands for personal freedom into one who is thinking, no, expecting that "the government will take care of me." This common thinking runs through all the Polly dissertations I have been reading on this post. "

WHAT post?

"Somehow, the Pollys think, when something bad happens, the government will take care of it. I don't have to. I paid into the system. I expect it."

From where did you surmise this? I HAVE been [and STILL am] optimistic regarding the unfolding of Y2k. I've been unemployed now for a year due to Y2k freezes and haven't asked the government for one dime. Preparedness is NOT always looking for ONE thing to collapse your world, but looking at the ODDS of something happening, and [in MY case, as a computer contractor], the odds are always in favor of layoffs.

Marie, it seems that you can't differentiate between forum/thread/post. It seems that YOU want to lash out at someone and choose POLLIES as your target. It seems that several others agree with you. Did the definition of a Polly change while I slept, or is it still someone who sees Y2k unfolding optimistically?

-- Anita (notgiving@anymore.com), January 28, 2000.

Well, I'm a polly, I think, and I'm VERY conservative. The government annoys me too, but overall I don't see us suffering as a people--indeed, we are the richest, most free society in history. Most of the 100k or so I pay in taxes this year will never come back to me, but so what? I have been lucky enough to get a good job,have had the opportunity to work hard, and was blessed with enough brains to sort through drivel about how badly off we are without letting it panic me.

If you don't like what's happening "out there"--go vote. Go get involved. Go try to persuade people like me, who think our overall system is the best that ever was, to change our mind. Get out YOUR history book and name a people this heterogenous who have EVER had it better in the history of civilization. THERE'S a little challenge for you pessimistic whiners. The government is US, no matter what you paranoids think. "We should" isn't worth a flying rat's butt. "I DO" is a better philosophy, methinks.

-- Imso (lame@prepped.com), January 28, 2000.

Citizen, I basically agree with your post with the caveat that (to be moral) SS participation should be completely voluntary.

www.y2ksafeminnesota.com

-- MinnesotaSmith (y2ksafeminnesoa@hotmail.com), January 28, 2000.

Q: How many pols running for office say they will INCREASE taxes? A: Very, very few that I am aware of. Q: How many say they will increase regulation etc.? A: Same as above. Q: If the above answers are true over the last fifty years, why are taxes so much higher than fifty years ago and there are so many more regulations etc.? A: Because we vote these people into office.

The history of the last fifty years shows us that who we vote for is immaterial. Taxes will go up. The constitution will be shredded and ignored because it happens slowly and we do not have an effective remedy to stop it.

History shows us that there will always be pollies/liberals. One of my sisters was a liberal. Duing the time our father was putting her through college and she was receiving welfare she vehemently defended liberal causes and high taxes. Then she graduated and our dad died. She was on her own and had to work. In a short period of time she changed her attitude. Looking at a pay check that shows how much tax is taken out changed her viewpoint.

Ayne Rand, in her book "Atlas Shrugged", may have had one possible solution. When the workers, producers, innovators and true thinking people stop supporting the drones and .gov parasites, then freedom may return.

-- Mr. Pinochle (pinochledd@aol.com), January 28, 2000.

Bless you, Marie! Well said! You've made my day, also. The arguments you got in return proved some of your points. I've been around too long, and have experienced too much, to see the world through the eyes and mind of a "polly". From where I sit, the so-called "pollies" have no historical perspective. I suspect they are all too young. If not young, they are truly ignorant (from the root word ignore) They have no clue as to real history. I doubt their historical perspective goes further back than 1970. I doubt if they have any experience or memory of a war or it's effects. I doubt that they have ever experienced a financial "crash". I doubt if they've ever studied any real history in depth. I am certain that they have no idea of the intention of our Founding Fathers. I'm certain that they couldn't name even five of their inalienable rights if they were threatened with death if they couldn't. I'm certain that they don't know the difference between an inalienable right and a government privilege. I'm certain they have been too unaware to notice a government gradually encroach on them or their business. I doubt if they could recite five of the Ten Commandments. Most kids and teenagers are "pollies"? It's a naive, inexperienced view of the world. It would nice if they could maintain that perspective for the rest of their lives. But eventually, they'll get mugged by "reality". Then they, too, will look at the "pollies" around them with disbelief. How many Jews in Nazi Germany refused to believe what was right before their eyes? How many Jews walked into the gas chambers fully expecting a nice warm shower? We Americans, particularly the young ones, are so naive as a people, and so ignorant. And, yes, one can drive a BMW, sit in a cubicle and manipulate digits on a PC, ride Bubble.Com and still be incredibly ignorant. Not necessarily stupid, but ignorant for sure! God help us all and may we get our country back! Glen

-- Glen Curtis (catherine@ipa.net), January 28, 2000.

An honest question here: Among those who consider themselves doomers, do you feel that your pre-existing views on the U.S. government affected your outlook towards Y2K? From your perspective, was Y2K closer to a technological issue or a societal one?

-- Bemused (and_amazed@you.people), January 28, 2000.

interesting posts. Classifications are hard, but because I read up on the Y2K issues, watched CSPAN and made some home preparations, I could be classified as a doomer. Ok fine.

I approached Y2K from a technical perspective and had some concern about an overwhelmed government being able to act if we had a worst case situation. Like most people, I have mixed feelings about the government we have, but the umbrella of benefits have given a lot of people a chance for a better life. It's not perfect, but I would prefer to live in this country.

When people choose not to get involved or choose not to vote, they get what they deserve.

-- nancy (wellsnl@hotmail.com), January 28, 2000.

For those of you moaning about this country, and for those of you who think pollies are too naive or too young to understand how bad it is or how bad it is going to get...

WHICH COUNTRY ARE YOU PLANNING TO BAIL TO THAT HAS DONE IT SO MUCH BETTER??

I thought so.

-- ImSo (lame@prepped.com), January 28, 2000.

He who would give up a little freedom for security deserve neither liberty or security.

-- Marie (readthis@think.com), January 28, 2000.

<>

I would like to add this, though: those of us who do vote should not accept what is tossed to us deemed a "choice" i.e. Candidate Scoundrel No. 1 or No. 2, liars all. I believe that was stated in the original post, to not accept lying by a President or anyone else. They work for US. We deserve a whole lot better than we're getting, and we should accept nothing less. Why is honesty such a problem?

The federal government was never designed to become the monster it is. There is still time to put it in its place. We have to start with ourselves, with eliminating this mindset that somehow government owes us a living and does things for the good for the children. Wasn't it none other than John F. Kennedy that said "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country"??

Also, how do you know that with enough campaign money spent, our votes aren't rigged/stolen? There is a book out, called "VoteScam" that is very interesting. If our votes are indeed rigged, then our Republic means nothing.

Hey, I give enough money in taxes busting my butt to supposedly solve all these social problems we have, and the experiment has proved to be a total failure. We may have it good, but we pay, pay and pay even more for it. Maybe some of you would like to throw more money at our nation's problems, but with 5 trillion in debts and counting, I for sure have had enough.

-- Robert (bdazzleddesigns@juno.com), January 28, 2000.

Yes, I agree that our country is already divided. But as long as we are still alive and thinking, we can still change things. Don't be too quick to give up, otherwise delusion will win.

I remember I met a man on a flight who was a classic case of someone who had "given up." He told me that if the government wanted me dead, they could just drop a bomb on my house. "Maybe so," I responded, "but they're not going to get me without a fight." He sat and thought about that for a long time.

I do not take freedom for granted. I am a naturalized citizen. My family came from China. I had to be fingerprinted, photographed, put under a light and asked 20 questions about the history of our country. After all that, do you think I don't vote? It pains me to see Americans not voting, because they prove they don't care one way or the other, or there is nobody worth voting for. So they stay home.

It is only too late once you're dead. Through hard work, effort, getting the word out about Truth, and I mean real truth, not what Clinton or the media says it is, will the people see what is happening, and hopefully, take steps to change. A divided people can still find a common thread, and we start with the most basic: Freedom and its principles, and with voting.

Those who want Socialism here should first visit a Socialist country and see how things are done there. They'll be coming back, screaming the people have no rights, their phones are bugged, police are everywhere, they can't assemble peacefully, etc. You look at a cop over there cross-eyed and you'll get beaten up, and you can't sue him either for damages. Such is life in a Socialist country. And might I add, if you are vocally critical of the political establishment, you may find yourself taken away in the middle of the night never to be seen again.

There is an answer to those who have raised the point at how wonderful our country is doing economically, while our freedoms are infringed upon. Yes, it appears that things are good, but we as a country still owe big money ($5 trillion) so, I ask you, how long will these good times last before we are asked to pay it all back? And, make no mistake, we WILL be asked to pay it all back. Does anyone here have $80,000 to give away, no matter how rich you say you are now? I am simply stating fact, not attacking anyone. We owe big money, as all our 'prosperity' has been bought on credit.

What is the alternative? Bankruptcy? These comments remind me of the rich man in the Bible saying to himself, "I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing" but he doesn't know that he is wretched, and poor, and blind, and naked (spiritually, that is). The Bible speaks of this as a man, but it could just as easily be a country and its deluded people in it.

In summary, even a divided people can come together if enough peacemakers point out where everyone has been misled. Yes, I am trying to do this, and getting attacked as a result, but so what. We can go from the "Socialists vs. Patriots" to "We the People" again. Yes, we can pray for guidance and help, but we can also write opinions in our local paper. We can keep a close watch on our Congressman and President and protest when they pass other laws or Executive Orders that infringe on our freedoms. We can vote for honest men and women, not Tweedledum or Tweedledee. In fact, here's a tip: the man or woman the media either hates or ignores is the one to vote for. The one they love, steer clear.

Are YOU going to let the media tell you who to vote for? Buck the system. Become an activist. Your influence counts. Use it. Freedom must be exercised.

"You have a Republic -- if you can keep it." -- Benjamin Franklin

-- Marie (readthis@think.com), January 29, 2000.