I'm a little "disgruntled" at the some the foreigner posts earlier indicating that we pay way too little for gasoline - and that we'll survive (like they do). Have these "blokes" ever been to the "States"? Do they have any conception at all that our ENTIRE society is built around "the motor car??" In Detroit, there are more Hummers tooling around than there are public busses! "Stateside" there is practically no mass transit outside of New York, Frisco, and Chicago. Even - and especially LA - is TOAST. Especially if you DON'T live within five miles of a 7-11! (When it comes to getting around that is - not that you'd want to with $6.00 gas). Somebody once pointed out, that you could feed very small amounts of certain poisons to a person over time with no ill effects whatsoever - but give it all at once and BOOM - cardiac arrest and DEATH. If we got $6.00 gas in a matter of weeks, it wouldn't be "just deserts" - it'd LIGHTS OUT. It'd be martial law for sure. And if "the biggest market in the world" goes down - it's going to profoundly affect all these naive foreigners as well. Heck, has anyone even asked outside of this country why we're still using the internal combustion engine? (I think some folks in Brussels and London might have a clue).

-- Phil Erup (Give_it_to@me.slowly), January 19, 2000

Answers

I read somewhere a few years back that the price for gas was about the same here and in Europe. The difference at the pump was in the government taxes per amount of gas. Can anybody confirm this?

-- Just passin through (nobody@nowhere.com), January 19, 2000.

I recall that Ross Perot thought it would be good for the country to have more expensive gasoline, and suggested raising taxes on it to bring it more in line with what other people were paying.

You are right, I believe, that most of the cost in other countries is for taxes. Since most of us pay half of our income in taxes right now, I really don't see the need for more. Perhaps the gov might consider cutting some of its spending for a change. LOL

gene

-- gene (ekbaker@essex1.com), January 19, 2000.

Most of the difference is taxes. Most Europeans would rather pay $5.00 and upwards for gas and get government health insurance, 6 weeks paid vacation, 35 hour work weeks, and a host of government benefits. On the other hand, most Americans would rather pay $1.25 for gas and keep the rest to do as he pleases. I realize that this is a generalization, but I think you will get the point.

-- New Guy (Newguy@Newbie.com), January 19, 2000.

Vote for Alan Keyes. He wants to eliminate income taxes in favor of tarifs and sales taxes. Even Orin Hatch agreed in the Iowa debate that taking the purse strings away might be the only long term solution to the IRS and the convoluted tax code. If fuel prices go up much, the price of everything else follows. It all has to get to the stores someway. BTW has anybody else noticed a spike in prices for some things since jan 1? Catching up with no increases in the last quarter maybe?

-- Just passin through (nobody@nowhere.com), January 19, 2000.

Phil,

I think there is a general consensus that energy costs are lower in the US than they are anywhere else, and the inevitable wastage is a cause of concern for many environmentalists.

Of course increasing the cost of gasoline (petrol) would cripple the US economy, which is why the US is the often the first country to oppose any international energy conservation or emissions reductions agreements. No-one is suggesting that the situation has to change over-night, but it has to change at some point. That said, if the US market for petroleum is viable at such relatively low price levels then there is no reason why they should change them (you have a huge gas pump in your own back yard). I don't see how anyone is going to persuade the US to raise sales tax (the real variable) on gasoline anyway.

I've never known what to make of TIAVAATTICEBTABATPCTT, but I'm not convinced.

TIAVAATTICEBTABATPCTT = There Is A Viable Alternative To The Internal Combustion Engine But The Arabs Bought All The Patents Covering The Technology.

The Commercial Aviation industry only accounts for a fraction of worldwide oil production (1% or something). I know cars account for a much higher proportion than that (I'd _guess_ 15-20%), but electricity producers, manufacturing industry, and the chemical industry account for the majority of it. There will always be a massive demand for oil regardless of whether we use it for transport or not.

There are lots of potential alternatives - electricity, liquid nitrogen, hydrogen etc., but these are all aimed at reducing the _local_ pollution caused by cars. The energy to make to these 'clean' fuels is still produced in the old-fashioned dirty way.

The only solution is some compact fusion device, a la Back to The Future, but I don't think anyone has invented one of those yet. (although some on here will probably tell me that such things have existed for decades).

Foreigners who tell you that you don't know what expensive gasoline means are correct, but they are kind of missing the point. As you imply, you have simply got way too used to cheap gas, and have built your entire economy around it.

Cheap energy has its disadvantages too - excess of any sort can lead to laziness, complacency, and inefficiency. I can think of a couple of American industries that have suffered because cheap energy has allowed to designers choose the least efficient (and less technically challenging) solution whilst other countries have been forced to innovate.

-- Matthew (mdpope@hotmail.com), January 19, 2000.

The cost of the gasoline at the pumps here in Alberta where much of our oil is produced is 80 cents for gal....the rest is taxes/royalties. The majority of Canadians who keep voting for the same entrenched social "safety net" (medicare, pension etc) obviously seem to want these programs funded by the taxes they pay. I don't and am working to see that our gov. changes at the next election.

But people always find a way to come up with the dollars to run their vehicles. I live in the country and choose to drive many miles and pay the cost - but that is a lifestyle choice. Getting to work will be hard for some if gas double in price, but they will work around that either by going without something else, or carpooling, using only one vehicle per family. Maybe it is not a love affair with an automobile, but the amount of time we spend in them sure makes it seem like supporting a mistress/master.

-- Laurane (familyties@rttinc.com), January 19, 2000.

Matt - Good post! I don't think it was the "Arabs" who bought the patents. Anyway, I did a paper in law school years ago where I came accross an academic paper that said that when solar reached 36% conversion efficiency, it could then squarely compete with oil. "Greater" gains would actually give it an ecomomic ADVANTAGE. In 1992, I then came accross an article (I think in Discover magazine) that said solar technology at broken through the 40% rate!!! A solar chip - boiled down - is sand, copper and glue! We could carpet every roof in this country with them if we wanted to - the globe in fact. Farms of panels in the southwest could create all the hydrogen we could ever use - CHEAPER THAN OIL!! Estimated initial cost? ABOUT ONE YEAR'S DEFENSE BUDGET!! Sooooooo, WHERE IS THIS ENERGY REVOLUTION???? Tanked!!! Killed - put out of commission. Too democratic and "uncontrollable". Why else?

-- Phil Erup (iam@who.iam), January 19, 2000.

In Germany they have a very high tax on gas.

They just sold gas as a stunt where the taxes where paid by one of the political parties to protest yet another 5 Cent hike.

The average gas sold was around 59 pfennigs a liter ( about 28 Cent a liter or about $1 a gallon.

The taxes on gasoline directly effects the road maintenance and part of the wellfare benefits.

They do NOT effect the 35hr week and other so called benefits that are there.

The free( kinda free) healthcare and other benefits are payed for by the rest of the outrages taxes.

As an example: if you are not married, have no children you are screwed with a taxrate of in exess of 55%.

How is that for working your but of for nothing?

Ahh and before I forget, there is also the church tax.

Should you belong to any of the regigniced (sp) churches you have to pay a tax that is proportional to your income ( I recall a number of about 7% in the late 70 ). This is also directly substracted from your paycheck.

Then there is a Fire Tax that pay's for the fire department and is charged I believe once or twice a year and the only people not to pay this are the valunteers of the fire department.

This goes on and on.. so you guy's in the US don't need to complain about any taxes you are paying even the ridiculus low taxes on gasoline.

-- RickJohn (rickjohn1@yahoo.com), January 19, 2000.

Everybody is so concerned about pollution but most people don't realize that we have made great strides in lowering pollution. The biggest prob is government. Some facts that might not be known by everone here include a new study that indicates that catalytic converters contribute greatly to the greenhouse gas problem, and that the top 10 best selling vehicals of 1965 got better combined gas mileage than the top 10 best selling vehicals of 1998. Mandating fuel mileage has forsed automakers to build smaller cars and driven people to trucks and vans and suvs to give them the room and comfort they want and need. I feel that the market forses would have brought about a better solution to the problems we face. As for taxes, they arn't ment to bring about social change, but to raise revenue to pay for a goal or the cost of regulating the industry or product being taxed.

-- Just passin through (nobody@nowhere.com), January 19, 2000.

Matthew makes a very good point.

What powers electric generation stations?
Hydro -- minor across most of the county
Nuclear -- under attack by environmentalists
Coal -- also an environmental problem, requires use of petroleum to bring to power generation location
Petroleum -- oil/kerosene/jet fuel

We'll need to reduce our expediture of electricity that has required a petrolem input before we can reduce our consumption of petroleum significantly.

Question: Between the money spent for Y2K remediation, and the cost of petroleum products to sustain generation of elelctricity, what do you believe will be the effect on your electric bill as oil prices increase?

Question #2: What will it take to institute a national policy of attention to renewable energy sources (solar, wind) and generation of hydrogen based fuels?

-- rocky (rknolls@no.spam), January 19, 2000.

RickJohn

Do you pay a sales tax? Just curious. We pay a 6% tax (depending on the state) on practically everything we buy except food.

I don't like the sound of a 55% income tax if you're single. That's pretty nasty.

One thing we have to hope for around is "don't get sick" and if you do, you better have good insurance. I have money taken out of my check twice a month for health insurance. I'm in a group plan so I pay around $130 a month. I have to hope we keep our insurance going. We're constantly changing plans. Also, car insurance is very expensive here. You have to have it or else you're in big trouble if something happens.

I was wondering about car insurance. Do you have it?

After everything is said and done, I would have to say that I'm probably in a 50%+ tax bracket for a single person.

-- Larry (cobol.programmer@usa.net), January 19, 2000.

Here's some original research I contributed too recently... http://www.kshitij.com/research/petrol.shtml

-- Cage Rattler (cage@rattler.com), January 19, 2000.

Catalytic converters are only aimed at reducing local pollution.

They convert (or remove) pollutants that are harmful to human health (benzine, nitrous oxides, carbon monoxide etc.) into to harmless carbon dioxide and water. However, carbon dioxide is the major greenhouse gas. This is better than choking cities to death, but it is not the ideal solution.

Small cars can be very fun, and very comfortable; I just don't think Americans have got used to the concept yet!

-- Matthew (mdpope@hotmail.com), January 19, 2000.

I've made this point before but I think its worthy of repetition:

US gasoline and oil prices are heavily gov subsidized figuring the $50-$100 billion we spend annually policing Mideast oil flows. If some want gas hogs, have them pay the true price. The % of crude we get from the Mideast is climbing and will continue to climb.

Failure to account for the cost of our military's defense of Mideast oil results in a failure to consider safer, cleaner, more cost effective technologies as well as the loss of private jobs that alternative energy businesses would spawn.

Further there was a quid pro quo between Reagan and Bush and King Fahd to veto any US gasoline taxes in return for US weapons purchases and friendly politically motivated oil price policies in Saudi Arabia. The last time we had a US gasoline tax increase was early in Bill Clinton's term. Before that it was Carter-no coincidence.

-- Downstreamer (downstream@bigfoot.com), January 19, 2000.

"Of course increasing the cost of gasoline (petrol) would cripple the US economy"

Of course?

Increasing it QUICKLY might very well do so. Increasing it SLOWLY might on the other hand finally hammer it through your heads that you have 5% of the population but use 25% of the resources. OK, most of those are consumed by Oprah viewers and Disneyland patrons, but you're letting them do it. ;p

It's well past time for us to break our reliance on fossil fuels. Let's leave some for the rats to build their civilisation on, huh? ;)

-- Servant (public_service@yahoo.com), January 19, 2000.

---servant, mostly agree with you. Thing is, any realistically practical alternate energy car or truck is very expensive for the average person to get. I'd love to have a hybrid or electric vehicle, etc, but no way could pay the price right now. Probably the only way for most folks is to do a propane conversion. I know for awhile that Atlanta Gaslight was offering a deal where they would adapt your vehicle to run on cng, and add a "pump" at your house, but it was about 3500$, also a ridiculous figure, plus no corporate financing on your city gas bill, which would have worked, my opinion.

As an aside, we do have a solar panel here, and will be adding more as money permits, and we are really trying to not drive to town and to combine trips, etc, in effort to reduce gasoline usage. Alcohol (ethanol) is only practical because of using fossil fuels for corn production, again not a good idea.

Most likely, wave of the future will be fuel cells, and gas turbine/ electric generator hybrid drivetrains. I agree on the reciprocating piston engine, time to move on in technology there, it's highly inefficient.

-- zog (zzoggy@yahoo.com), January 19, 2000.

'Zactly my point Zog...If we Americans paid the true price for oil and gasoline that includes our Mideast military expenditures, nat gas, propane, electric, hybirds, solar would be more economical. And I'm also noticing all the above mentioned technologies are cleaner and don't put out the CO2 (greenhouse gasses) or other gunk.

-- Downstreamer (downstream@bigfoot.com), January 19, 2000.

Great thread; makes me feel like a minnow in an ocean of turbulence. You people just about covered the lot.

From an outsider looking at the USA I'd say you've got it made, but obviously things are not as they appear at first glimpse.

In Australia over 50% of the bowser cost of petrol is Federal tax. This was attained by creepage and stealth over many years ostensibly to build Australian road infrastructure. With the closure of rural railroads the road transport companies mushroomed pitching huge rigs at roads contructed for lighter vehicles. Needless to say the petrol tax is siphoned off to general revenue to sustain political pet projects other than roads that are falling into corrigation and potholes. Bridges build for light loads are simply dissembling by themselves as they cannot take the punishment anymore. These issues are front page rural reportage in the past month.

Higher fuel costs in Australia is here as we are on world parity pricing. Inflation is noticed but the government spins it rosy.

I recall the innovation of the 1970 forced by higher fuel costs and a reaching out for alternatives to petrol. Locally a wind farm is planned following exhaustive studies. It'll hook into the national power grid. This innovation is privately funded.

Since the late 1980s farm viability has been affected by increasing costs - fuel costs. From approximately 225,000 farms in Australia then only about 100,000 remain today.

The farms that remain in business are recording an average income of $10,000 per year. Their fuel is subsidised but lower commodity prices and drought strain them constantly. We are also getting strange weather patterns.

It's going to get very interesting from now on.

Regards from Down Under where we envy Americans' cheap juice, but do realise so many factors change the equation.

-- Pieter (zaadz@icisp.net.au), January 19, 2000.

To the person askng additional questions.

Yes there is a tax on everything you buy. 17% vat. Everything you import has a minimum of 14% tax. Cars are taxed by the volume of the cylinder bore. I cant speak for current taxes but as I left Germany In 87 I payed DM 2600 a year for my 2 litre car.

It is mandetory to go to drivers school to get your license, in 72 when I made my license it was 33 marks an hr with a mandetory 30 hrs plus a extra testing fee for the gov tester.

Now, at that time the exchange rate was about 1.6 marks to a dollar.

Wanna be even more astounished? Everyone living and working in the old west germany has to pay a variable tax to subidice the old east. that can go up to an additional 8% for non married singles.

Even tho my wife would love to move to Germany I AM NOT. NO WAY. I HAD IT WITH CORRUPION AND POLICE STAAT BEHAVIOR. VAMPIRES ARE MORE MERCIFULL AT LEAST THEY GIVE VICTIMS A CHANCE :-)

I moved into the US and I am amazed over and over for what pettifull little things people here get bend out of shape.

Have a nice day.

-- Rickjohn (rickjohn1@yahoo.com), January 19, 2000.