Received this email to pass on to anyone who may be interested....have not sorted out my thoughts on Jane Fonda, but she has may no public statements to the fact that she was horribly wrong about Vietnam. ************************ Many of us over 50 remember that during the Viet Nam war Jane Fonda opposed the war, as many others, but she went to Viet Nam and embarrassed the U.S. Government and the prisoners of war by her actions. Many of these actions are spelled out below. It is appalling that her actions have been forgotten and that she may be honored as one of the "100 Women of the Century." The text that follows was sent to me, and I believe it needs disbursing. Subject: HANOI JANE Looks like Hanoi Jane may be honored as one of the "100 Women of the Century". JANE FONDA remembered? Unfortunately many have forgotten and still countless others have never known how Ms. Fonda betrayed not only the idea of our "country" but the men who served and sacrificed during Vietnam. There are few things I have strong visceral reactions to, but Jane Fonda's participation in what I believe to be blatant treason, is one of them. Part of my conviction comes from exposure to those who suffered her attentions. The first part of this is from an F-4E pilot. The pilot's name is Jerry Driscoll, a River Rat. In 1978, the Commandant of the USAF Survival School was a former POW in Ho Lo Prison-the "Hanoi Hilton". Dragged from a stinking cesspit of a cell, cleaned, fed, and dressed in clean PJs, he was ordered to describe for a visiting American "Peace Activist" the "lenient and humane treatment" he'd received. He spat at Ms. Fonda,was clubbed, and dragged away. During the subsequent beating, He fell forward upon the camp Commandant's feet, accidentally pulling the man's shoe off-which sent that officer berserk. In '78, the AF Col. still suffered from double vision (which permanently ended his flying days) from the Vietnamese Col.'s frenzied application of wooden baton. From 1983-85, Col. Larry Carrigan was the 47FW/DO (F-4Es). He spent years in the "Hilton"-the first three of which he was "missing in action". His wife lived on faith that he was still alive. His group, too, got the cleaned/fed/clothed routine in preparation for a "peace delegation visit. They, however, had time and devised a plan to get word to the world that they still survived. Each man secreted a tiny piece of paper, with his SSN on it, in the palm of his hand. When paraded before Ms. Fonda and a cameraman, she walked the line, shaking each man's hand and asking little encouraging snippets like: "Aren't you sorry you bombed babies?" and "Are you grateful for the humane treatment from your benevolent captors?" Believing this HAD to be an act, they each palmed her their sliver of paper. She took them all without missing a beat. At the end of the line and once the camera stopped rolling, to the shocked disbelief of the POWs, she turned to the officer in charge... and handed him the little pile. Three men died from the subsequent beatings. Col. Carrigan was almost number four. To whom it may concern: I was a civilian economic development advisor in Viet Nam, and was captured by the North Vietnamese communists in South Viet Nam in 1968, and held for over 5 years. I spent 27 months in solitary confinement, one year in a cage in Cambodia, and one year in a "black box" in Hanoi. My North Vietnamese captors deliberately poisoned and murdered a female missionary, a nurse in a leprosarium in Ban me Thuot, South Vietnam, whom I buried in the jungle near the Cambodian border. At one time, I was weighing approximately 90 lbs. (My normal weight is 170 lbs.) We were Jane Fonda's "war criminals." When Jane Fonda was in Hanoi, I was asked by the camp communist political officer if I would be willing to meet with Jane Fonda. I said yes, for I would like to tell her about the real treatment we POWs were receiving, which was far different from the treatment purported by the North Vietnamese, and parroted by Jane Fonda, as "humane and lenient." Because of this, I spent three days on a rocky floor on my knees with outstretched arms with a piece of steel placed on my hands, and beaten with a bamboo cane every time my arms dipped. I had the opportunity to meet with Jane Fonda or a couple of hours after I was released. I asked her if she would be willing to debate me on TV. She did not answer me, her former husband, Tom Hayden, answered for her. This does not exemplify someone who should be honored as "100 Years of Great Women." Please take the time to read and forward to as many people as you possibly can. It will eventually end up on her computer and she needs to know that "we will never forget". Lest we forget..."100 years of great women"

-- Laurane (familyties@rttinc.com), January 15, 2000

Answers

Sorry for the scrambled text - it looked OK when I pasted it in.

-- Laurane (familyties@rttinc.com), January 15, 2000.

Not only that but she can't act either!!

-- porky (Porky@in.cellblockD), January 15, 2000.

Thanks Laurane for the post. Sometimes things are worth repeating because they are worth remembering.

-- PA Engineer (PA Engineer@longtimelurker.com), January 15, 2000.

Few things in life, make me want to hold a grudge. My DH was in the this war. I will NEVER forget what this bitch did! NEVER!

JOY

-- JOY (Tryon1ja@cmich.edu), January 15, 2000.

She was right to oppose your government in this unjust, Dow chemicals profit-seeking war as many other Americans did . . . but she was crossed the line when she became a traitor against hard-working, patriotic, innocent American soldiers. Completely unforgivable! (It has even tainted my admiration for Hank (who really was a great actor!)).

-- Think It (Through@Pollies.Duh), January 15, 2000.

The ultimate whore. (A little on the pricey side, maybe, but still a whore.)

-- Me (me@me.me), January 15, 2000.

I'm glad she was brave enough to stand up for what she believed and protest the war. I think she helped other women believe in themselves enough to speak up, instead of continuing to play the role of submissive slaves in a male-dominated war machine society. Things have really changed a lot since then, and she was one of the most influential women responsible for making it happen. I also liked her in "Barbarella." :-) Keep up the good work Jane!

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), January 15, 2000.

You know Hawk, a, or whatever you call yourself now, your about the most worthless piece of shit that infects this board. After having the displeasure of reading your simplistic, childish posts on this board for sometime now, I think you are the epitomy of a troll. Your a cocky, under 30, uneducated, foul mouthed, smelly little fuck. I sure wish we could meet in person so I could kick you little punk ass then urinate on you while your laying on the ground bleeding and crying.........punk

-- Jeff (123@4.com), January 15, 2000.

a person who didn't at least LOOK at those tiny bits of paper before turning them over to the captors should never be honored in any way

shows that she had a VERY CLOSED mind, and apparently thought it was ok for SOME people to treat others badly (hmmmmm.....thought that's what she was supposed to be over there protesting)

feel sorry for her? yes....i do

i understand she had a rough life growing up.......but that shouldn't make you inhuman

if that excuse is to be allowed......we should close down the court system and open the cell doors

hawk......i have never gotten personal on this board before, but i feel sorry for you if you admire such a total waste of skin

___________

think it........

henry fonda may have been a good actor, but did you know that he still "appeared on stage" on the night of the day that his wife (jane's mother) committed suicide? i know "the show must go on"......but that's carrying it a bit too far

guess the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree

-- mebs (andrea@mebs.lurking), January 15, 2000.

Lol Jeff! Have a few beers this eve and feeling brave are we? Read what you just typed... I think you must have been looking in the mirror when you typed it, because you are describing yourself!

I'd be happy to meet you in person so that you can suck my dick, which is undoubtedly what you do best! :-)

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), January 15, 2000.

i assume this discussion has come up because of jane's recent conversion?

i agree her act was terrible. but also feel it was a ridiculous war that should never have been fought. old men sending young men to war to benefit their own politics or economics. our poor boys were fighting a war they didn't want to fight but did it courageously to NO THANKS from our country when they returned. makes me cry just to think about it because they were only a little older than my boys.

yet, i know what hideous mistakes i have done in my past and how awful i felt about them after i realized how wrong i was--yet i couldn't always go back to my victims and tell them how sorry i was. yet, it didn't mean i wasn't grieved about it. give jane time. if her conversion is sincere, she will come back and ask for forgiveness in one way or another. sometimes it takes a long time before our eyes are opened and then before we have courage to face those we wronged. god help us all if we are held up to the same scrutiny as "famous people" where the entire country remembers our wrongs. i just hope those soldiers who suffered from jane's visit have healed emotionally (if they are still alive) because hanging onto anger and bitterness is pure poison.

-- tt (cuddluppy@aol.com), January 15, 2000.

Jeff:

Our job is to stand pickett around Hawk's soapbox.

There is a path of accountability, and he has begun the journey. Many are in his company. They will share his reward. Give thanks to God that among all our errors, his is one we have not chosen to share.

Regards,

-- Tom Beckner (tbeckner@xout.erols.com), January 15, 2000.

Protesting the war is American. Sitting on the anti-aircraft gun, surrounded by smiling commies, and having a look on your face like someone is diddling you is too much for this vet.

-- JB (noway@jose.com), January 15, 2000.

Thanks Laurane for trolling for the nazis.
It's always enlightening to see how many
there are.

-- spider (spider0@usa.net), January 15, 2000.

I was on a mining detail in Haiphong Harbor, N. Vietnam. I was on the last American ship to leave those waters. I know how we all felt about Hanoi Jane. I understand the vets who won't forgive her. I won't or can't defend her actions. We all did a lot of bad things in the sixties. War is messy. However,...

I became a Christian a couple of years after I was discharged. I know the power of the forgiveness of God for my sins. I thank God she now knows that cleansing and freedom from sin and death. I forgive her because God asks me to forgive those who trespass against me. I see her as a new creature in Christ. Her past is under the blood. Praise God! Welcome to the family of forgiven sinners Jane.

-- BB (peace2u@bellatlantic.net), January 15, 2000.

BB - I'm with you. Praise God as another sinner comes home. Shows the truly awsome power of God. Never, ever, ever, give up Hope. Now - let's hope the Spirit is working on Ted, through Jane. Wouldn't that be a topper!

-- metoo ('@'.COM), January 15, 2000.

I spent 4 years in uniform from Nov. 1965 through Oct. 1969. I got my draft notice when I was 19. ( I enlisted) All I knew was, I didn't want to go some place I'd never heard of and die. But my name wasn't William Jefferson Clinton and my daddy wasn't rich so I left my teenage life to become a trained killer. What a shock. What a screw job. The government betrayed us and you betrayed us and now people want to make excuses for the likes of Hanoi Jane. Most of you don't deserve to breath the same air as those who had their lives totally screwed by a country who didn't give one whit about them. If you didn't serve during Viet Nam, you aren't even entitled to an opinion. How could you know?

-- UR2Blame (upower@jnb.com), January 15, 2000.

--check your facts laurane... the refence dates in the post are inconsistant with the historical event. the date "1978" and and "1983-85" are post veitnam. i did 2 tours as a helicopter pilot 1968-70. it is not hard to hate jane for what she did. but as for me and my family the war has been over for a very long time. those of you that are still living it are either liars living in the past or heroes now forgotten.

-- jda (1whohasbeen@vn.com), January 15, 2000.

Good morning.

What difference is there between Hanoi Jane's actions during the Vietnam war and those of the various Nazi sympathizers who were punished after WWII? Other than the fact that WWII was fought against nazi bastards rather than communist bastards and the fact that we didn't fold our tent and go home in WWII, there is no difference.

Which communist leader called the left "useful idiots?

Which "useful idiot" is now commander in chief?

In what way does being a celebrity infer that you have any idea of what the hell you are talking about?

Jane Fonda is a traitor and her recent conversion will never change that fact.

Michael, Airborne all the way, Rangers lead the way.

-- michael frazier (mfrazier@pacific.net), January 15, 2000.

Thanks Michael, aptly put!!

Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), January 15, 2000.

http://urbanlegends.about.com/culture/urbanlegends/library/weekly/aa11 0399.htm

-- Vietnam Vet (vietnamvet@hotmail.com), January 15, 2000.

Check your facts? - this was sent to me and I am just passing it on - it does sound like the dates are incorrect, but these things happened as testified by others and I have no way of checking out the facts - maybe mistyped a decade date?. Others with access to records may be able to but not I. And as a Canadian, I probably would be called a Liberal not a Nazi if anything by people who stereotype.

But I am someone who had friends who went into this War from growing up in Australia, kids I went to school with, (bet you forgot about all the other countries involved) and I see it from the point that Jane Fonda is self-absorbed and overcome with her own importance. Maybe she truly believed in what she was doing, and maybe she truly believes what she has converted to. But the point is that to become a true Christian you have to repent and admit past errors - have to take some responsibility for your action, and then try to make restitution for those errors. That will be the hard job! And so far it isn't happening.

If I were Jane, first off I would publicly beg forgiveness and then it is up to the wronged people to choose whether to accept or not, and then spend the rest of my life working to undo the mess I had caused. I would probably realise that not many would want to have anything to do with me and that would be part of the suffering I would have to undergo, part of what I would have to live with. But I expect we will not see that and this private conversion will be chalked up to the Grace of God and not something she has had to agonise over and work at. But maybe it is premature and I have slandered her.

-- laurane (familyties@rttinc.com), January 15, 2000.

It's a hoax, Laurane. What Fonda did was bad enough without lying about it.There's no disputing that Jane Fonda toured North Vietnam, propagandized on behalf of the communists, and participated in an orchestrated "press conference" with American POWs in 1972. There's no denying that she defamed POWs by whitewashing the Viet Cong's treatment of them and later calling them liars when they spoke out. But how true are the further allegations in the current email rumors? Let's examine their veracity point by point, beginning with the most serious:

Claim: Fonda betrayed POWs by turning over slips of paper they gave her to their captors. POWs were beaten and died as a result.

Status: FALSE. "It's a figment of somebody's imagination," says Ret. Col. Larry Carrigan, who was shot down over North Vietnam in 1967. He has no idea why the story was attributed to him. "I never met Jane Fonda," he told me. It goes without saying he never handed her a secret message.

He confessed that he did see Fonda once while he was a POW  on film.

He recalled the night when he and the rest of the 80 or so men he was interned with were called out into the prison courtyard, "the first time we'd been outside under the stars in 5 or 6 years." As they all stood there wondering what was in store for them, a projector started whirring in the background. Their captors proceeded to show them footage of Jane Fonda's visit to Hanoi.

Claim: A POW spit at Fonda, for which he was brutally beaten.

Status: FALSE. About.com Poll Does Jane Fonda deserve to be honored as a Great Woman of the Century?

Yes No Not sure

Current Results This story is attributed in the email to former Air Force pilot Jerry Driscoll, who says it's false and did not originate from him. I wasn't able to speak with Driscoll directly, but Mike McGrath and Paul Galanti, fellow officers of the Nam-POWs organization to which Driscoll belongs, told me he unequivocally disavows the story.

[Update: after this commentary was written I received personal confirmation from Jerry Driscoll that the story is bogus  as he put it, "the product of a very vivid imagination."]

Mike McGrath, currently serving as the president of Nam-POWs, has been trying for more than a month to help Driscoll and Carrigan squelch the false rumors circulating under their names.

"They would like to get their names removed but the story seems to have a life of its own," he told me. "There are a lot of folks out there who would love to have a story like that to hang their hat and their hate on."

Claim: POWs were beaten for refusing to cooperate or meet with Fonda during her visit.

Status: TRUE. The final anecdote in the "Hanoi Jane" message recounts the experience of a POW who agreed to meet with Fonda but announced to his captors that he planned on telling her how horrid conditions in North Vietnamese prison camps really were.

"Because of this," the narrative continues, "I spent three days on a rocky floor on my knees with outstretched arms with a piece of steel placed on my hands, and beaten with a bamboo cane every time my arms dipped."

Those words were written by Michael Benge, a civilian advisor captured by the Viet Cong in 1968 and held as a POW for 5 years. When I contacted him, he confirmed that the story was indeed his, and true.

Benge's original statement, entitled "Shame on Jane," was published in April by the Advocacy and Intelligence Network for POWs and MIAs. The nameless, faceless author of the "Hanoi Jane" message evidently picked it up from a Web page or a newsgroup and combined it with fabricated stories to create the forwarded text. Some versions now circulate with Benge's name appended, others quote his statement anonymously.

"None of us are members of the Jane Fonda Fan Club"

A good cause is never well-served by lies, and that's how all of the ex-POWs I spoke to or corresponded with about the falsehoods in this message felt. Paul Galanti said: "None of us are members of the Jane Fonda Fan Club, but these fabrications are something she just did not do."

No one had an answer to the question "Who made up these stories and why?" but both Carrigan and McGrath expressed doubt that it was a POW.

"She did enough to place her name in the trash bin of history," McGrath explained. "None of us need to make up stories on her."

Jane Fonda could not be reached for comment.

-- Vietnam Vet (vietnamvet@hotmail.com), January 15, 2000.

"i assume this discussion has come up because of jane's recent conversion?"

That's exactly right tt.

It seems that since she discovered Christianity there are a lot of people who seek to destroy her credibility and limit her power of influence within religious communities. Her media tycoon husband Ted Turner is undoubtedly part of the source of this propaganda campaign, as he uses his power in the media to villify her, so that any information about his own evil doings will be ignored. Even more shocking is the fact that I see other Christians apparently jumping on the bandwagon, ready to attack an innocent women based on nothing but false propaganda. What a shame that such hatred is being wrought in the name of Christianity.

e-mail propaganda being spread by anonymous person

Tom Beckner,

"Give thanks to God that among all our errors, his is one we have not chosen to share."

What a load of self-righteous crap. If you think God is going to reward you for defending war, you've got another thing coming my friend.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), January 15, 2000.

The e-mail was written by WorldNet News Daily. Ted Turner had nothing to do with it, he's too smart for that.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), January 15, 2000.

I HEREBY APOLOGISE FOR SPREADING RUMORS WHICH HAVE BEEN DEBUNKED IN THE ABOVE SITE BY "VET"....I "ALSO" AM GUILTY OF SPREADING PROPAGANDA.

It would be a good idea to check this site each time an emotional issue comes up, and this one is emotional judging by the responses.

Sysop - please delete if you see fit.

-- Laurane (familyties@rttinc.com), January 15, 2000.

Thank you Laurane. Yes, from now on it would only be fair to at least have a name for the source of this type of potentially dangerous propaganda, as it is even less likely to be true than what we get from the media. As witnessed in this thread, there are many angry self-righteous right-wing militant individuals who immediately pounce on any opportunity to villify more liberal viewpoints in order to make themselves appear to be saints.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), January 15, 2000.

This thread demonstrates the integrity and the utility of this forum. Virtually instant corrective feedback, juvenile drivel intervening notwithstanding. Much thanks to Vietnam Vet (vietnamvet@hotmail.com) for clarifying this.

-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), January 15, 2000.

FWIW...my opinion. As a Christian I would like to make several comments.

1. The Scriptures are clear that there must be confession on the part of the sinner before there is any forgiveness of sin. Even God restrains himself in this matter.

2. Since Fonda's actions took place in the public arena...a public confession is required.

3. The law of the land REQUIRES that crime be punished (the Scriptures are also very clear on this issue). What Fonda did was equivalent to "Treason"; a death penalty crime that went unpunished at the time. Being a Christian is irrelevant. Being forgiven by God or man is irrelevant. If she were to be charged and convicted of the crime of Treason, only a Presidential pardon would keep her out of the gas chamber.

-- TM (mercier7@pdnt.com), January 15, 2000.

TM,

Give me a break! Sin? Treason??

Get real man, we still live in a free society, and it isn't a sin or treason to protest a war. At least it isn't yet, but I suppose if people like you have your way it will be a sin just to be alive. If anything it should be the other way around, the killing of innocent people is a sin, and that is what she was protesting.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), January 15, 2000.

Hawk, you are truly deluded.

Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), January 15, 2000.

Oh, ok Ray, whatever you say. :-)

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), January 15, 2000.

Thank you, dear veterans!

May God bless you!

-- dinosaur (dinosaur@williams-net.com), January 15, 2000.

Jane always did blow whichever way the wind blew. Sexy babe, anti-war, aerobics, now Christian. Never did feel there was a real deep core there.

Don't worry, give it a decade and she'll be into something else again. I'll just keep praying she doesn't convert to my religion as a backlash at somepoint, we'd never live it down...

-- Firemouse (firemouse@fcmail.com), January 15, 2000.

Laurane; You are a fine person. Thank you for providing a point of discussion and acknowledging an error. It takes a very real person to do that. You have courage and integrity.

Jeff; Your language is too strong for this forum. Don't mess with da' Hawk.

BB; In the true limey tradition, here! here!, mate.

UR2Blame; Felling sorry for self? Try blaming self -- after a while reality sets in.

TM; Try to find a little of that forgiveness you got for free and give it to someone else. How hard is that?

Never liked her much, now she is my sister! Hmmm, sure works in mysterious ways. Now, what can we do to get Cat Stevens to come on into the fold? -m-

-- Michael Erskine (Osiris@urbanna.net), January 16, 2000.