Tourney 3 - Time for the debate, and we'll do it with these games...

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You can debate as many times as you wish until the January 15th, 2359 GMT deadline. Other rules are placed at the proposed debate rules thread.

Randomized games are as follows - along with my initial debate - if any:

1. Gauntlet II - adventure?

2. Amidar - Collect em' up

3. Zero Zone - puzzle - this involves nudity... and I'm quite afraid of the young kids that could be involved... but that's up to the debaters :)

4. Burning Rubber - driving

5. Lady Bug - Collect Em Up

6. Xenophobe - what type is this?

7. Marble Madness - maze

8. Turtles - Collect em' up - out due to two games of same type rule according to me. :)

9. 10 yard fight - football

10. Ghouls N' Ghosts - Platform

11. Tron - uh... adventure I would guess

12. Devil Fish... maze I would guess

13. Ninja Kid II(set 2) - platform I guess

14. Tempest - shooting?

15. City Connection - driving

16. Magic Sword - platform - out due to two game rule

17. Outzone - ??????

18. The main event - wrestling

19. Sega Ninja - ??????

20. Kangaroo - platform - out due to two game rule

21. Do Run Run - uh... collect em' up? and therefore out

22. Snow Bros. - platform - out

23. Green Beret - platform - out

24. Mappy - oh... plaform - out

All that are claimed out are NOT out officially, that's just my opinion.

I'm interested to see what you think in debate. If you say all are good, then you should say so on the message board.

Thanks :)

oh btw... in case you're wondering... none of my games got in :(

-- Gameboy9 (goldengameboy@yahoo.com), January 10, 2000

Answers

Looks like we are in for a long debate. ;)

-- Dave Kaupp (info@kaupp.cx), January 10, 2000.

Ooops, ignore me. I read 2359 as year instead of time. (I really should get more sleep on a monday).

-- Dave Kaupp (info@kaupp.cx), January 10, 2000.

In a bit of a rush, I'll get to the rest of the debate later. A couple quick things though:

OutZone and Sega Ninja are both vertically-scrolling "human shooters", a la Ikari Warriors or Time Soldiers. So only one can be included, and I vote for Sega Ninja :)

secondly, what was the number ordering for the games? Gameboy, did you just number them in the order you'd like to see them in? As an example, Ghouls 'n Ghosts is a platformer and that was the first one listed, all the others were marked out. Is this how we're supposed to post, post the one in the genre we'd like to see most?

just wonderin how the rest of us should post in this thread

-- BBH (lordbbh@aol.com), January 10, 2000.


The games that were posted are in the EXACT order the randomizer gave me. The higher it is, the more likely that it's in the tournament. So if every game was accepted, the top ten on that list is what would be in the tournament. Again, if I said something was out, it is NOT out - it's just my opinion - that's all. If more than two games of the same type are in the randomizer, the one with the LOWER level is out. Course my opinion of types could be much different from anyone elses...

-- Gameboy9 (goldengameboy@yahoo.com), January 11, 2000.

1. Gauntlet II - adventure?

I'd describe gauntlet as "shoot everything that moves". It's a lot closer to a game like Robotron 2084 than Tron. I don't think there's really anything on the list close to it.

2. Amidar - Collect em' up 5. Lady Bug - Collect Em Up 8. Turtles - Collect em' up - out due to two games of same type rule according to me. :) 12. Devil Fish... maze I would guess

These are all maze games where you walk around more or less trying to walk over every pathway in the maze. However - none of these 4 games have similar rules, so I think we could get away with allowing two of them. The objection I have to Amidar is that the existing scores make it look marathonable, but that may not be an acceptable basis for removal seeing as past tournaments have tried to beat the serial number on Galaga & Gyruss.

3. Zero Zone - puzzle - this involves nudity... and I'm quite afraid of the young kids that could be involved... but that's up to the debaters :)

Is there a puzzle game similar enough to use instead? Not like it matters to me, with my performance on puzzle games so far the machine'll be adding my clothes to its collection :(

4. Burning Rubber - driving 7. Marble Madness - maze

Marble Madness is a racing game. It either goes with other racing games (like Super Sprint), or in a class by itself. Not all games with cars are racing games... anyone got a better description of Burning Rubber?

6. Xenophobe - what type is this?

Games that su-su-su {WHAP} suck! There's a good reason there aren't any other games like Xenophobe.

9. 10 yard fight - football

Yep ... football.

10. Ghouls N' Ghosts - Platform 13. Ninja Kid II(set 2) - platform I guess 16. Magic Sword - platform - out due to two game rule 23. Green Beret - platform - out

Yes, these are pretty much in the same class of game. Ghouls N' Ghosts and Magic Sword are CPS1 games and probably need a decently powered computer to play in MAME. Either possible set of 2, Ghouls N' Ghosts & Ninja Kid II, or Ninja Kid II & Green Beret (if we toss cpu hogs) would be different enough to be ok.

11. Tron - uh... adventure I would guess 17. Outzone - ?????? 19. Sega Ninja - ??????

Tron either goes here (Due to Grid Bugs & MCP Cone) or by itself. I don't know anything about Outzone or Sega Ninja, just taking BBH at face value.

14. Tempest - shooting?

I'd group it with Galaga & Gyruss "walk around the bottom & shoot up" games, but there don't seem to be any others on the list.

15. City Connection - driving 20. Kangaroo - platform - out due to two game rule 22. Snow Bros. - platform - out 24. Mappy - oh... plaform - out

These are not "platform" games in the same sense the "run & jump to the right while you slash/shoot" set is. And, once again, not all games with cars are driving games! Same "marathon" objection to City Connection as to Amidar, and same "pick two" comment as on the maze & side scrollers.

18. The main event - wrestling

Well, if 10 Yard Fight counts as football this would have to count as wrestling.

21. Do Run Run - uh... collect em' up? and therefore out

Dig Dug man, Dig Dug yo!

Game list based on my classifications without removing any games except by rule of 2:

1. Gauntlet II 2. Amidar 3. Zero Zone 4. Burning Rubber 5. Lady Bug 6. Xenophobe 7. Marble Madness 9. 10 Yard Fight 10. Ghouls N' Ghosts 11. Tron

Which, despite disagreement over what games belong together, is the same list of 10 games Gameboy came up with. If marathons are bad we'd switch in Turtles(8) for Amidar, and if the speed on Ghouls N' Ghosts is a problem switch in Ninja Kid II(13). Marble Madness runs on similar hardware to Crystal Castles & Super Sprint from T2, so if it goes for speed reasons the replacement would probably be Tempest (14).

The randomizer doesn't seem to have done too badly... should be fun. Aqua

-- Aquatarkus (aquatarkus@digicron.com), January 11, 2000.



To see how fast the top ten games run, i just try out on a P200 MMX with no sound & it seems to me that Gauntlet II, Marble Madness & Ghouls N' Ghosts are a bit slow.

-- Blost (blost@flashmail.com), January 11, 2000.

Xenophobe does not suck. =) How come they ported it to so many systems? It must be popular since they did. =P I can't endorse it though...it's MY own game. LOL

-- Sports Dude (shyboy820@aol.com), January 11, 2000.

I will endorse Burning Rubber though, the Bump 'n' Jump style game. (since it IS the original version of it. =P) I'd vote for Mad Gear if it worked in MAME .35, but since it doesn't work...I'll endorse Burning Rubber instead. =)

-- Sports Dude (shyboy820@aol.com), January 11, 2000.

Ok, admittedly my reaction to Xenophobe is based on the NES cart, which I maxed out the score on quickly enough (with a standard NES gamepad - no autofire or slow motion) the afternoon I rented it to take it back the same night.

I haven't played any version since ... perhaps the arcade isn't the cakewalk the home cartridge was. From the few times I actually paid attention to the arcade version beforehand it looked like a pretty good conversion though.

Aqua

-- Aquatarkus (aquatarkus@digicron.com), January 11, 2000.


As blost stated some of the games run a bit sluggish on a P200. Do we know what CPU speed is required for these games to not run sluggish?

As I asked awhile back, whats the target CPU speed for the tournament games?

BTQ: Is TGmame required for T3? I thought I read that it was. If so, is it a MSDOS compiled binary only?

/me is still lacking sleep. :)

-- Dave Kaupp (info@kaupp.cx), January 11, 2000.



These are only my opinions...

1. Gauntlet II Number one choice - no problems here.

2. Amidar Pacman style game - too easy to marathon - see MARP records.

3. Zero Zone Nudity should not allow this game in T3.

4. Burning Rubber - driving Agreed

5. Lady Bug - Collect Em Up Pacman style game

6. Xenophobe - what type is this? No idea

7. Marble Madness - race against the clock.

8. Turtles Pacman Style - see 2. and 5.

9. 10 yard fight - football Agreed

10. Ghouls N' Ghosts - Platform Hi-spec PC required - unfair to slower PC owners.

11. Tron In a class of it's own, although scores of 1,000,000 are possible, as patterns exist. See MARP.

12. Devil Fish... maze I would guess yup - but not Pacman style.

13. Ninja Kid II(set 2) - platform I guess no idea.

14. Tempest - shooting? Yup, classed as per Galaga and Gyruss

15. City Connection Pacman style game

16. Magic Sword - platform - out due to two game rule yup

17. Outzone - ?????? no idea

18. The main event - wrestling yup

19. Sega Ninja - ?????? no idea

20. Kangaroo Multi-stage repeating - eg Donkey Kong.

21. Do Run Run Mr Do! + Dig Dug style. Own class.

22. Snow Bros. - platform - out yup

23. Green Beret - platform - out yup

24. Mappy - oh... plaform - out yup

I'd therefore say the choices could be: 1) Gauntlet II 4) Burning Rubber 5) Ladybug 6) Xenophobe 7) Marble Madness 9) 10 Yard Fight 11) Tron 12) Devil Fish 13) Ninja Kid II (set2) 14) Tempest

Now that looks like a good mix to me - none of these are anything like the other.

I've only ever played 5 of them.

Crash.

-- Dean Ryan (crash@tcp.co.uk), January 11, 2000.


As usual, I am not familiar with most of the games. Most of these, I have never played or even seen before, so I can't say very much about them. I do want to bring the subject of "marathon games" into the discussion, though. I personally do not like marathon games, because after some practice, it is no longer really a matter of skill, but pure stamina. So it's no longer a question of who's best at the game, but who cares to play it the longest.

And for those who like marathon games, please remember that we are using m35tg3, which means that there is no Pause key. Please don't let T3 become like Deca2000, where somebody has already submitted a 14.5 hour game, and where the majority of games are marathonable. Is that what people want? Well, I don't. Like I said, it is more a matter of stamina than skill. And even if I did, there is no way I can leave my dogs unattended for that long.

If it turns out that the majority of people is against marathon games, then maybe we should start taking a look at the MARP recordings to see how long each of these games here can take.

There's one game in the first 10 that I should like to see removed: Lady Bug. After Jr. Pacman in T2 and with Ms. Pac-Man in Deca2000, please don't torture me with yet another one of those. :-)

Cheers, Ben Jos.

-- Ben Jos Walbeehm (walbeehm@walbeehm.com), January 11, 2000.


1. Gauntlet II - 2. Amidar - Collect em' up . I agree with Ben Jos, we should avoid all "marathon" games. 3. Zero Zone - puzzle - Personnally, I have no problem with nudity ... This game is anyway available to everyone, in the t3 or not. So we can keep it. 4. Burning Rubber - driving 5. Lady Bug - Collect Em Up I disagree with Ben Jos here : it's sure a pacman style game, but a lot more interesting and tactical. 6. Xenophobe - what type is this? stupid style. I don't want it... but I know... that's not a good reason. 7. Marble Madness - maze 8. Turtles - No : 2 collect em up already. 9. 10 yard fight - football I'm against this game : this is a football game ( american football ) and some non american players don't know rules of this game ( like me ). 10. Ghouls N' Ghosts - Platform No. ninja kid is funnier. 11. Tron - uh... adventure I would guess 12. Devil Fish... maze I would guess 13. Ninja Kid II(set 2) - platform I guess 14. Tempest - shooting? 15. City Connection - driving

So, in conclusion, my ten games pick : 1. Gauntlet II 2. Zero Zone 3. Burning Rubber 4. Lady Bug 5. Marble Madness 6. Tron 7. Devil Fish 8. Ninja Kid II(set 2) 9. Tempest 15. City Connection Laurent.

-- lagavulin (darre@club-internet.fr), January 11, 2000.


1. Gauntlet II
Good choice.

2. Amidar
As noted, it seems that one can marathon this game if they know what they're doing. Either don't include it or force harder settings.

3. Zero Zone
I don't have a problem with the nudity, I just have a problem with how boring the game is. The nudity will certainly offend someone, so I dunno if this should get in...

4. Burning Rubber
I don't care for it, but ok.

5. Lady Bug
arrrgh, another maze game...

6. Xenophobe
Strange game, would seem weird to play in a tourney. Biggest problem with this is finding a button configuration that feels natural.

7. Marble Madness
Not a maze game, more like racing. Another game where people with trackballs have a nice advantage over the mouse users.

8. Turtles
noo, no more...

9. 10-Yard Fight
Not that familiar with it, but ok?

10. Ghouls n Ghosts
May run slow on some computers. (certainly didn't stop Neo-Geo games from getting accepted in past tourneys though)

11. Tron
No. Very pattern-based, as shown on MARP someone can get huge scores just by memorizing what to do. Do we REALLY want that?

12. Devil Fish
blah.

13. Ninja Kid II
don't foresee any big problems with this.

14. Tempest
Seems acceptable.

15. City Connection
It's a platformer, not a racer! And NotMan has already demonstrated that after 900,000 points, the game awards an infinite amount of lives for some reason. This could prove to be a big problem.

16. Magic Sword
again, could be slow...

17. OutZone
Overhead human shooter, seems fine with me. ;)

18. The Main Event
Seems like a quarter-eater, would this be good for tourney play?

19. Sega Ninja
damn... guess OutZone outranks it

20. Kangaroo
looks like it's out...

21. Mr. Do! Run Run
This game would be great, it's mostly a "collect-em-up" but you don't have to win the level that way.

looks like the last three are out too -BBH

-- BBH (lordbbh@aol.com), January 11, 2000.


Gauntlet II-Human shooter.Long, tedious, yet playable. In.

Amidar-Death-by-boredom-variant.If we're going to play this, we might as well stick DDay and Crush Roller in the tourney. Out.

Zero Zone-Tetris variant.Who the hell voted this game in? It's repetitive, extremely slowly-paced, unoriginal, and the nudity sin't even fresh. Out.

Burning Rubber-Driving. Whatever. In.

Lady Bug-Pac-Man variant. Don't know why there's so many enthusisasts for this game, but since it doesn't have Pac in the title, I'll play. In.

Xenophobe-FPS Maze. At least its different. In.

Marble Madness-Rollerball/Dexterity game. In, BUT ONLY IF SLOW COMPUTERS ARE PROHIBITED!!!

Turtles-Pac-Man Variant. Out by 2x rule.

10 Yard Fight-Sports game. OK. In.

Ghouls and Ghosts-Platform. Unsure-I'll vote In if leeching can be controlled or kept to a minimum.

Tron-Multiple games. Aside from the fact that Tommi is going to wipe us out faster than a bunch of Windows programs on lightbikes, I can't find any good reason to keep this game out. If anyone can think of one, please e-mail me, and I'll support your cause. In.

Devil Fish-Pac-Man Variant. Even though its better than LadyBug, Out by 2x rule.

Ninja Kid 2-Platform. Out by 2x rule.

Tempest-Spinner/Dexterity, Inverted Shooter. An excellent game, and probably the only classic on the list. In.

City Connection-Side-Shot Maze. Out due to scoring issues (unlimited lives at high scores)

Magic Sword-Side Scrolling Platform. Out due to 2x rule. In if leeching problems determined to be too sever in GnG.

Out Zone-Human Shooter. Essentially, these games are the same as Gauntlet, just not as pretty. Out by 2x rule.

The Main Event-Sports. Out by 2x rule, and becuase they're really just acting.

Sega Ninja-Human Shooter. Out by 2x rule.

Kangaroo-Single screen platform. Not a 2x problem, but for leeching issues, let's can this one quickly.

Do! Run Run-Pac-Man variant. Too bad, since its even better than the other two (Devil Fish and Lady Bug) Out by 2x rule.

Snow Bros-Single screen platform. The game is a good challenge, and probably has the most balanced play of all the games on the list (speed, dexterity, planning, and timing are all required) In.

A few quick points, like it or not, Gauntlet, Sega Ninja, and Out Zone are variants of the same genre, one which Gauntlet helped to pioneer. I'd rather play the original than anything else, but II will do nicely.

Amidar, City Connection, GnG, Kangaroo, and Green Beret are all games where leeching will be a problem, as well as lending themselves to vry high scores. I vote to eliminate these games from consideration.

Despite what Gameboy says, comparing GnG to Snow Bros is VERY naive. Snow Bros is a Bubble Bobble type game, whereas GnG is a traditional platform side-scroller. These are two VERY different games.

And that's all I have to say about that. I'd like to start hearing some debate on other people's thoughts about the games.

-- Quinn A.C. Nicholson (qan@home.com), January 11, 2000.



There might be some misunderstanding as to the purpose of this discussion... when I said I didn't want Lady Bug in, I used a smiley, because I knew that disliking a game is not good enough reason to discard it. This discussion is not some kind of second round of voting on the games that were selected. Basically, the first 10 games of the list WILL be selected for T3, UNLESS enough people come up with a VALID reason (disliking a game does not count as that) not to include it...

Cheers, Ben Jos.

-- Ben Jos Walbeehm (walbeehm@walbeehm.com), January 11, 2000.


May I just say that in Europe, we actually don't play or look or think of sport games as Football (we have what you call soccer) or Wrestling . Thus it will take us a very long time to learn the rules of these sports games ! Is it really fair ?

-- Olivier Millardet (olivier.millardet@wanadoo.fr), January 12, 2000.

You don't need to learn the rules of U.S. football to play 10 Yard Fight (this is a game I'm not even going to endorse, I seriously do not like this game!), or learn pro wrestling "rules" to play Main Event. (this is just way too hard to be in the tournament...also not going to be endorsed) 10 Yard Fight is simple, just get to the scoring area, the "end zone", passing is allowed. Main Event is simple, it's just a game that uses one button and you basically try to weaken your opponent and "pin" him. It's a lousy game IMO, Wrestle War would've been better.

-- Sports Dude (shyboy820@aol.com), January 12, 2000.

My opinions: 1. Gauntlet II (Acceptable, not fond of the genre but...hell...this IS a classic after all. =)

2. Amidar (Boring game IMO, no thanks)

3. Zero Zone (Joy Joy Kid is a better puzzle game. This is emulated fast, but it's a slow game. And marathon games aren't good for my vision, I nearly was blinded marathoning Palamedes...and I've had this happen for other games too. At least there are breaks in Joy Joy Kid)

4. Burning Rubber (a favorite of mine, should DEFINITELY make it)

5. Lady Bug (I don't know if Lady Bugs are enemies in this or the character you control, but I have a large phobia of bugs. Therefore, I'd prefer to avoid this)

6. Xenophobe (change of pace game, may not yield high scores, but it's unique. I think this should be given a shot)

7. Marble Madness (my new computer will run this efficiently, and I'm getting it before the tourney. I'm poor at this game, but...hell, I'll take it.

8. Turtles (unfamiliar with the game, but it doesn't sound fun)

9. 10 yard fight (it IS sports, but it bores the hell out of me. Might be a little too frustrating to add.)

10. Ghouls N' Ghosts (CPS1 games were acceptably fast on my machine in MAME .35 with frameskip and no sound. But even that won't get me to add this, not a fan of THIS genre)

11. Tron (I like this game, but I was frustrated enough dealing with Tron's discs. Still, I may give it a shot.)

12. Devil Fish (Doesn't sound like something I'd enjoy)

13. Ninja Kid II(set 2) (This looks like an SMB platform game. However...I'm very unfamiliar with it. No opinion.)

14. Tempest (This I absolutely WILL NOT play. I nearly had a seizure playing this in MSArcade once...and I haven't even wanted to play this since. It also features the "electrocution" style of death, and that is disturbing to watch, especially in an arcade game.)

15. City Connection (Unless this game has a little bug in it that welcomes cheating, I'll play this)

16. Magic Sword (An alright game, but not worth tourney status)

17. Outzone (Not familiar with this except in screenshots, and it doesn't seem like something I'd play)

18. The main event (It's a sports game, but I find this game WAY too hard. It's also boring.)

19. Sega Ninja (Doesn't look exciting, or something I'd play in the tourney)

20. Kangaroo (Repetitive games don't get my vote unless they have something special about them...)

21. Do Run Run (...like this one does. It's not a Pac Man style game, that's the original, this one is...well...quite unique. Should definitely make the tourney)

22. Snow Bros. (No way you should throw this out. The best game of the group, like Bubble Bobble but a lot more fun. As mentioned, has everything a good tourney game should have. And, this doesn't freak me out like Taito/Toaplan games usually do. DEFINITELY in by my account.)

23. Green Beret (Sort of repetitive, but it's a game I will definitely accept. It's quite fun, however, I'm not sure if you'll have many people with high scores. Do accept this though.)

24. Mappy (This game is too cute to be in the tournament. =) I have never liked Mappy games at all, they seem like Mr. Do! ripoffs. I think we should take the original and get rid of Mappy)

So, accepted for me is:

Gauntlet II

Burnin' Rubber

Xenophobe

Marble Madness

Tron

City Connection

Do Run Run

Snow Bros. (favored BIG time)

Green Beret

I might as well add Magic Sword to make 10 games.

I hate the gratuituous "enter" hitting. LOL

-- Sports Dude (shyboy820@aol.com), January 12, 2000.


OK... I'm going to give the opinion of this...

2. Amidar - out for marathons (this is now 6 - 2 in full votes for throwing it out)

3. Zero Zone - out for nudity (3 1/2 - 4 1/2, I'm counting BBH as 1/2... for now)

8. Turtles - out for triple type *** (6 - 2... but... see below)

10. Ghouls n' ghosts - I don't know about slowness here... so no opinion yet (3 - 5 - still in for now...)

This opinion can change...

*** = NOTE TO ALL: If Amidar is thrown out for the marathoning, which I think is a good reason - then turtles WOULD be back in because it would be down to two collect em' ups.

-- Gameboy9 (goldengameboy@yahoo.com), January 12, 2000.


well..........I have tried a few games of the list....... how boring with lady bug, xenophobe, turtles,...zero zone.... I would propose more challenging games : Gauntlet II - burning rubber - green beret.

-- Olivier Millardet (olivier.millardet@wanadoo.fr), January 12, 2000.

Ok to throw AMIDAR. I would agree to throw GHOULS'N GHOSTS, much too slow... What about DEVIL FISH? It seems quite crap to me. What's the goal of this game anyway?

About 10 YARD FIGHT, i must agree with Olivier to say that, i don't understand a damn thing about what you call football, but at least it seems much enjoyable than Wrestling :)

-- Blost (blost@flashmail.com), January 12, 2000.


Ok, further adding to clarify and confuse a few games descriptions:

Ladybug: Pick up all the objects. You control the monsters path with revolving doors. You can move the doors, the monsters can't. Kill monsters by making them run into skulls. No energizer or other direct weapon.

Turtles: Pick up baby turtles and take them to the safe house one at a time. Stun the monsters by dropping a bomb in their path. Earn more bombs by picking up the bomb item in the center of the maze.

Turtles is much less like Pac-Man than it looks from a screenshot. The monsters will not move through each other, which defeats the standard grouping tactics used for Pac, Burgertime, Lock n' Chase, etc. If I remember correctly this is true of Ladybug as well.

Devil Fish: Pick up all the dots. Use energizers. At least that's what i remember. Any one who's played it more recently want to give a more detailed explanation?

Now, as for 10 Yard Fight. It's an extremely simplified form of American Football. All offense. No play calling. What I'm trying to say is you don't have to understand the sport to learn this game. Considering the performances I saw by members of the football team at my old high school, I dare say that knowing real football is a serious disadvantage. Nonetheless, if it makes it in I'll post a primer on the forum. I'd already sent medium to advanced assistance to RCATT ages ago. http://www.classicgaming.com/rcatt

With wrestling games - especially tag team wrestling like The Main Event - non fans are at a serious disadvantage.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

Iran number one! Russia number one! France HAK-PTOOOIE

Aqua

-- Aquatarkus (aquatarkus@digicron.com), January 12, 2000.


Devil Fish:

Drop fish to fatten up the monsters: they then get trapped in the doorways and you can kill them. Then they release a piece of the puzzle in the centre of the maze. Collect all 9 pieces of the puzzle to clear the level.

There are no dots to collect: only extra fish for your ammo collection, and there are no powerpills. Nothing like Pacman :) I don't believe there are patterns for this game, same as Ladybug (which is much more Pacman like, but with revolving doors).

Crash.

-- Dean Ryan (crash@tcp.co.uk), January 12, 2000.


Thanks Crash. Sounds like I've got Devil Fish confused with something else.

Aqua

-- Aquatarkus (aquatarkus@digicron.com), January 12, 2000.


On Mark Longridge's high score page(the official MAME TG page in case nobody knows), there's an entry for Amidar(Tournament) - my guess is that that's playing five lives, with no extras, regardless of what the settings say. I've asked Mark Longridge about this - if we set the settings on Amidar to 5 lives and no extras, would that be acceptable to everyone? It WOULD neutralize the marathon situation. If so, Turtles would probably be out for triple types. If not, Amidar would probably be out for marathons and turtles would be in.

Thanks for reading :)

-- Gameboy9 (goldengameboy@yahoo.com), January 12, 2000.


There is also another simple solution to prevent marathon games for Amidar: take one of the clone games. The hardest one is Amidar (Olympia). To my opinion Amidar (with harder settings, see message of Gameboy) or one of it's clones (gameplay is identical but harder) should be in the tournament.

-- MvdV (cypr135@knoware.nl), January 12, 2000.

I'd prefer 5 lives only.

Aqua

-- Aquatarkus (aquatarkus@digicron.com), January 12, 2000.


Whooaahhhh! I see a new tread about T3 voting games! I'm not quite sure if I ever will return to play on this tourney nor MARP, again!

I see that BBH has mention me about city connection! Yep! This game should banned due point-leeching and after 900k points infinity cars bug which Mamedev hasn't fixed the bug, unless some of you want this game back on tourney! Use 5 cars and no bonus car! I guess that will work unless the point-leeching goes!!!

Amidar! Wow! I wonder if Angry ever return to answer this question! Well! I prefer Tg setting or 5 lives only on Stern version (cause Konami version is way too easy) or Amidaro (which is the hardest of all Amidar clones)

Kangaroo and Zerozone should be banned for future tourney!

Turtles and DevilFish should be really boring game! (Just my opinion!)

All the rest of the games should be okay for tourney and Good Luck! Hopefully I may be back or not! Gotta go now!

-- NotMan (notman99@yahoo.com), January 12, 2000.


Ok, here goes "nothing"...

1) Gauntlet II - It'll almost seem unusual (to me) to play this game solo, but otherwise, ok.

2) Amidar-I've concerns about "marathon" games too, especially since the tournaments have resulted in many new 1st place scores in games selected. I've really only played this on Atari 2600, so if other settings and/or clones are acceptable to the community, fine by me, otherwise I'd leave it out.

3) Zero Zone-Seems to be at least "based on" Columns, which unfortunately can't serve as a substitute. Personally, I could take it or (if others are especially worried about the nudity) leave it.

4) Burning Rubber-Bump (cars into the sides) and Jump (to avoid obstacles) type of game :)! No problems here.

5) Lady Bug-Eat "dots", avoid monsters. I gues we'll have (at least) one of these types of games every tournament, so this one will do.

6) Xenophobe-Side scroller, with each button serving several "tasks" (mainly shooting, jumping, etc.)Different enough to make it.

7) Marble Madness; 10) Ghouls N' Ghosts; 16) Magic Sword. These are the only games I (and probably most people) might not be able to keep above a speed of 90%, as the rules demand. I'll keep trying, but I think this is definitely a good enough reason to not include them.

8) Turtles -Might be in, if Amidar's out. I'd prefer 12) Devil Fish, which (IMHO)is the same type, but I suppose that's a different story.

11) Tron-Multi-game, in sort of the Combat School and/or Track and Field category. Which somehow doesn't discourage me from saying "In".

13) Ninja Kid II -Platform. Haven't played it enough to see anything "special", but appears acceptable.

14) Tempest-360 shooter, much like Gyruss. Ok.

15) City Connection -Hmm, maybe "maze"? The objective at least is more similar to Crush Roller than Burning Rubber, Super Sprint, Pole Position, etc. But if its bugged and/or a candidate for points leeching, as others have suggested, I say get rid of it.

17) Outzone; 19) Sega Ninja. I'd say they're closer to Ikari Warriors than Gauntlet. I'm not sure either will make it, but one or the other would be fine.

18) The Main Event-Ugh! There's better wrestling games than this (some of which I don't have scores for :)!), which is the only "fighting" type of game I can think of where a) you lose energy just for standing around, and b) there's only 1 "attack" button. Hopefully, this doesn't make the "cut".

20) Kangaroo - Possible point leeching. If the selection process actually gets down this far, feel free to pass this one by, too.

The "bottom" four I'd accept, but it doesn't look any of them will make it, however they are classified.

You'll notice I left (purposely) left out one: 9) 10 Yard Fight. Since I nominated it (call it whimsy, if you must), I'll let others judge whether it's "worthy". I WILL say that I think that this wouldn't be a difficult game for people (American or not) to learn, probably less than several other games in this list, and certain less complex than 2020 Baseball from T1. I'd also be willing to help out anyone who can't "grasp" the rules. I might even volunteer to judge it if it makes it so that any questions eventually pass my way, but that's another subject/thread...

-- Sandman (msander@journey.com), January 13, 2000.


I personally don't know most of the selected games, and actually I don't have the time, nor the mood, to go and play them a little to make myself an opinion of them (many wise points of view have been exposed yet)....as in T1 and T2, I keep myself out of the games decisions, and I'll play both good and boring games you all will choose. I just wish to tell a word on Amidar, a game I like and I know pretty well...I agree it could be a "marathon" game (even if only two players actually "broke" it), but please consider that those records have been achieved with def. settings (3 lives, extra at 30k and every 50k), while TG foresees 3 lives but extras at 50k and every 80k. If we want to avoid any risk of "marathoning", let's pick up Amidaro, as MVdV suggested (BTW, MVdV, I'm very pleased to see you back here for T3.....that means no anger from you for what happened in T2, and I appreciate this very much!)

Cicca

-- Cicca (cicca@writeme.com), January 13, 2000.


About "slowness": I had a P90 and I could play Marble Madness without sound with good enough speed. I also used an option -noscanlines(or was it nosync)which helped tremendously. For those of you who have slow computers, try no sound, noscanlines, and ofcourse with really slow ones change frameskip(games are still very playable with frameskip of 30/60,). Now I have amdk6-2 300 and it plays perfectly with full sound on. Another issue is that soundtrack in MM absolutely awesome!!(by Hal Canon,paperboy,peter packrat,720?...Atari(long live!)games)

For comparison, a friend of mine has P60 with slow graphic card and he can't even play joust or T&F without slowing down with sound.

I don't think a game can be left out because some have only P9,99 or so. Sure if a majority of competitors can't play a game, it should be banned though.

Not more than two same kind of games

Nudity yes, although if that game sucks then no

Ignore following comment: (No football games, I don't know the rules and I expect it to suck deeply.)

No marathon games. But what is the limit of marathon? A friend told me he should play easily 500 000 at Gauntlet 2, which would take some time. But he's best G2 player I know, he used to take my coins and play me few thousand "health units" before I started to play...

PS. I voted for Marble and Tron, so lady fortune has been favourable for me... :)

-- Tommi (tiihoto@hotmail.com), January 13, 2000.


I went to go find both versions of Xenophobe this morning and see if the arcade version is better. The problem with the conversion became very obvious looking at them within a few minutes of each other. Arcade - tons of creatures in a room, NES - 2 creatures in a room. Not only can anyone beat NES Xenophobe, anyone can do a better job making a Xenophobe clone.

Not sure if I like the arcade game yet, but my earlier comment on it was unfair.

Aqua

-- Aquatarkus (aquatarkus@digicron.com), January 13, 2000.


After a " Nuke France " delicately posted in a previous thread , Aquatarkus now gives us a splendid "France HAK - PTOOOIE" ( I guess he means he spits to France in his own language ) , symbol , once again, of his intelligence and his tendency to racism. Poor guy ...

-- lagavulin (darre@club-internet.fr), January 13, 2000.

You are right.He is probably upset because of his performance at T2. It seems that at least one french player ranked better than him.

-- Olivier Millardet (olivier.millardet@wanadoo.fr), January 14, 2000.

In perhaps a refreshing change from the last two contributions (which are at least off the subject at hand), I'd like to extend my thanks to Tommi for his comments about how I (and others) might improve their speed.

Like I said, I kept experimenting, and I believe I can now achieve the minimum speed for Marble Madness, Ghouls N' Ghosts and Magic Sword by changing enough options. So I personally no longer have a problem allowing these games in, although I'll listen to others' concerns about speed and, in GnG's case, point leeching.

-- Sandman (msander@journey.com), January 14, 2000.


Sandman: Can you please give me the specs on your computer please? I'm trying to figure out if I should throw out any games for slowness or not.

One more thing - it's GHOSTS N' Goblins where there's all the points leeching, not GHOULS N' Ghosts. I guess it's still possible however... I don't know how though... but we'll catch it :)

Finally... I haven't gotten a reply for that 5 lives / no extras in Amidar from Mark Longridge... but to my knowledge that's usually Twin Galaxies' tournament settings when a marathon comes about like Amidar as two people have demonstrated. The actual machine record is 2 1/4 million... although this was made in 1985, it's quite possible to do here in 2000.

In addition, extra lives of 50K and 80K thereafter are impossible to set in MAME - we'd have to do 50K and 50K thereafter, which is not TG compliant - I'm game to do 5 lives and no extras which would avoid any sense of marathons.

I'm thinking of extending the deadline of this debate by two days because it's been quite heated :) Any objections?

-- Gameboy9 (goldengameboy@yahoo.com), January 14, 2000.


Extending the deadline might be usefull but i dunno if there's much else to be said after what's all been said :)

It is certainly possible to points leech in Ghouls but i don't think it can be as extravigant as gng, they are two different versions on the same theme. You should set up a standard for points leeching just in case. I.e. if you die in a level where points leeching was involved then the rec should be disqualified, or no points leeching for more than 10 seconds of game time....

That's really cool that you can play Ghouls sandman, it's a very fun game to play and to WATCH, i hope it's not disqualified just because people couldn't figure out how to use the -sound 0 and -frameskip auto parameters of mame.

-- Chad (churritz@cts.com), January 14, 2000.


ok ! seems that things are clear now for the tournament !! could you just give us a link for downloading the modified mame version that we will have to use ? thanks !

.......and good luck everybody !!

-- Olivier Millardet (olivier.millardet@wanadoo.fr), January 17, 2000.


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