All right, I just have to address this. Everyone here is so wrapped up in this big ego battle over whether this or that problem is or is not y2k-related. Does it really matter? What if there are millions of problems that are really NOT y2k-related? Does that mean they do not affect our lives? Frankly, I no longer care if the problems are y2k-related or not - I just want to know about them so I can try to determine if there is a trend. Then I can adjust my life accordingly.

If there is an oil pipeline closed by restless natives (Nigeria), and it is "not y2k-related", I still want to know about it.

If a bunch of airports are closed due to generator problems (Chicago), or newly installed computers (New Hampshire), or for a radar problem (Palm Springs), but they're "not y2k-related", I still want to know about it.

If there is a false warning of a chemical leak (Umatilla, OR) due to human error, but its "not y2k-related", I still want to know about it.

If there are train crashes in Canada and Norway, but they're not "y2k-related", I still want to know about them.

Frankly, I do not believe the media "no problems" reports. These reports are an extremely broad sound-bite generalization and blatantly ignore the real problems that have occurred - sometimes even reported by the very same news organization.

So just tell me what problems have occurred. I will determine for myself if I think it is a trend worth worrying about. You need not worry yourself about whether I think it is y2k-related or not.

-- Bruce (Bruce.dague@excite.com), January 04, 2000

Answers

More than fair, but if you really want to determine a trend, you'll want to research all the crashes, glitches, etc. before the rollover as well as after. So have fun researching, but it might get a bit tiring. ;-)

-- Ned Raggett (ned@kuci.org), January 04, 2000.

Finally, one of the most intelligent posts I've read today !!!

on de rock

-- Walter (on de rock@northrock.bm), January 04, 2000.

Exactly, Bruce! If by May gasoline is $3 a gal and they say it is caused by something else, or if in June I try to buy something that isn't available anymore and the reason is not y2k - it still impacts me, does it not? Well, actually, no it doesn't -because I am prepared..lalala.

-- April (Alwzapril@home.com), January 04, 2000.

Yes I agree, I have never posted on here before, but I consider this forum my primary source of reliable news. And yes, sometimes, its not very reliable to some but yet better than the newspapers here locally. I am very interested in happenings around the world, of any kind. I have read these pages for some time and see so much anamosity towards one another. Just post what you believe to be true and let us the readers do the rest. A link would be appreaciated. So with this I close, keep the postings coming and thank you.

-- clyde king (cjk@kiva.net), January 04, 2000.

We report, you decide? This is a discussion forum. Without the discussion, somebody is going to miss something that another hadn't seen, get it?

The peanut gallery is giving off 'vibes' again...........

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), January 04, 2000.

I use timebomb and free republic as my primary sources of news.thank you all.

-- eric micael....allen (bizerr4@hotmail.com), January 04, 2000.

The main issue is an utter lack of context for "glitches" relative to pre-rollover times.

What we've got in this group is a dozen or so people obviously spending an exceedingly large amount of time scanning the major wires/sites PLUS foreign newspapers, obscure wires, and specialized business news wires and reposting every conceivable negative story they can find.....Y2K related or not Y2K related (and if there isn't the slightest hint of Y2K in the article, they'll either 1) Helpfully add a twisted/exagerrated headline to the post to make it seem either worse or Y2K-related, or 2) After their cut-and-paste put a snickering sentence or two about "yeah, right, car hitting telephone pole" and then expound on the dastardy world-wide media conspiracy.

And the crucial issue is that people were doing NONE of this at all PRIOR to the rollover. Any given day, how many refineries worldwide are at reduced capacity? How many nuke plants are shut down? How many electrical fires are there in Third World Nations?

I wish I was still in school with free LEXIS/NEXIS; I'd be pick a three day period, say Jan.1-3 in 1995, and sit here and flood the board with cut-and-pasted news articles about power outages, nuke plant problems, electrical fires in the Third World, etc.

And of course, there is the additional factor that the same problem occuring prior to rollover is FAR more likely to be reported now; especially by a major news service.

If a large Korean Apartment Complex lost heat for a few hours in November, do you think it would appear in front-page articles on CNN.com and ABC.com, as it did a couple days ago? I think not. Would a medium-sized companies' billing problem make a wire ANYWHERE at all, except for the past three days? No.

And I know I've had goofed up bills, etc. many times in my life. None in the past three days, plenty pre-rollover :-)

-- John H Kremasky (johnk@dmv.com), January 04, 2000.

John, did you just find your way here?

Why do you think attitudes are currently the way they are here?

You wrote, And the crucial issue is that people were doing NONE of this at all PRIOR to the rollover. Any given day, how many refineries worldwide are at reduced capacity? How many nuke plants are shut down? How many electrical fires are there in Third World Nations?

You ARE obviously a newbie.

We, the regulars here, have been tracking these kinds of problems for over two years. Take a look into the archives. Where were you?

THAT is why many here can SEE what MAY be trends and spikes.

Mike

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-- Mike Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), January 04, 2000.

Mike,

Quickly glancing through the archives all I can find are things like arguments over whether ALL power in the US goes out on 1/1/2000, or only most of it. (Making the "We never said anything would happen on the rollover" backtracking even more hilarious)

The contention that people here were spending exactly as much time scanning newswires for problems occuring in July this year as they are now is laughable.

Now, I'm sure they were scanning for the scariest PREDICTIONS, no doubt, and the archives sure contain a lot of articles pulled off wires that are those.

In a previous thread I found that there were over 500 electrical fires in Delhi India this July. If I took several hours of my time to plow through the archives of this place, will I find ANY of those mentioned here?

And what about my noting that the same problem that occured, say, last July is far more likely to make the news now?

Do you recall apartment houses in Korea making front pages in the US previous to the last three days? Give examples.

-- John H Krempasky (johnk@dmv.com), January 04, 2000.

Sure John, I'll give you two quick examples from last year.

Number 1. LA County Y2k Test

While doing a Y2k test in Los Angeles, where I reside, a failure kept a gate from closing which resulted in the spill of over 3 million gallons of raw sewage into the Sepulveda basin. This caused so much fear in the City government that the Mayor decided to cancel further testing of the facilities. You suggest that Y2k is a non-event yet this failure was widely reported. Do you think that we've been merely lucky that further spills have NOT occured. Oh, but wait... news from today in Orange County. A spill has occured there causing the release of raw sewage which has resulted in another beach closing. This is the second time in only mere months that this has occured. Last year, during the height of the tourist season, a spill caused the closure of Huntington Beach for MONTHS. The problem and the solution were never made public to the best of my knowledge.

Number 2. Washington State.

A computer and sensor neglected to inform workers that a gasoline leak was dumping gallons of the flamable liquid into a small stream. Three boys were killed when the stream literally exploded around them. One boy while being comforted by his father, burned naked and still hot from the burns on his body, said, "I don't want mom to be mad." He died in his father's arms. I believe he and his friend were both 9. His house was only a short walk from the stream.

These incidents are both the result of faulty computer systems which did not report data correctly. One was a certain Y2k failure, the other may still be under investigation. I've never seen additional reports but an embedded failure was suspected.

If you think that Y2k has NOT cause any problems then you are totally deluded. Y2k test failures resulted in a number or problems and in all honesty it is my belief that we are currently in the kind of situation that the companies said they would be in. We're in contingency land. That is, we are in a "workaround world." We've gone "manual" which is EXACTLY what was the plan if things became a problem.

As for the archives, I suggest you dig a little deeper before you try to condecend to those who have been following these issues here for a great while longer than you have.

Or, do you think that that spill in L.A. was just a complete and utter anomoly? Either way, I really don't care what you think.

Why are you here John?

Mike

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-- Mike Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), January 04, 2000.

Mike,

Oh, personal amusement. I used to compete in and coach collegiate debate, and I sort of miss the arguing. :-) Nothing was more fun than simply going in and crushing someone badly who really didn't know what they were doing(known as "clubbing baby seals")in a round.

Been out of it for a while, it's just a hobby of mine debating people around the net....I do a lot of arguing with pseudoscience nutjobs and such on some of the science newsgroups, weather chat rooms....

On a more serious note, it bothers me that rational thinking and logic seems to be on its way out in the US...our educational system certainly could care less about it and one of the few places you'll still get any exposure to it is academic debate...however, it's hard for me to really do anything about it, so I try to wander around to demonstrate it places like here where it's virtually non-existent :-)

Wish I'd found this place earlier....what a hoot. Thanks for pointing me to the archives, I got a lot more laughs out of that than from the current postings..not merely because of all the hilariously failed predictions, but the obviously faulty logic in them....

Nice job of using the standard debate technique of "rewriting the resolution." Now, all Doomers were completely right if they can successfully find ANY actual Y2K problems ANYWHERE in the world.

I humbly admit that there have been Y2K problems in the world. And there will be more. Happy?

The issue is whether these disruptions are anything statistically significant beyond the glitches/disruptions of normal operations.

And Mike, still waiting for you to find me a front page article about a Korean apartment complex loosing heat for a few hours in a major US publication.......

-- John H Krempasky (johnk@dmv.com), January 04, 2000.

To John-the-debater, "...our educational system could care less about..." No, Not quite. Our educational system couldn't care less about... I thought debaters spoke precisely. Glad we give you a chuckle here at TB 2000. You certainly gave me a similar one.

-- Pamela (jpjgood@penn.com), January 04, 2000.

I just decided that every time they say something is "not Y2K related" I'm going to say that it is. Since they never offer any proof of what the real cause is, I figure I have as much right to say that it is, as they do to say that it isn't. That way at least one of us will be right.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), January 04, 2000.

I humbly admit that there have been Y2K problems in the world. And there will be more. Happy?

Yes.

Regarding Korea which I never even eluded to... I hope you're holding your breath.

Mike

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-- Mike Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), January 04, 2000.

Wow, Pam, I think you shut him up!

-- Kyle (midtnbuddy@aol.com), January 04, 2000.

And BTW, I am a newbie, also. The main reason I got back on line was Y2K related. I was tired of what the major 'newless' media were offering on this subject and knew I would find it from you guys and other folks on various other boards. I first heard of the bug from an unsolicited subcription offer by mail from Gary North. I did not subscribe and am NOT an admirer or follower of his. Anyway, guys thanks for all the information. I for one appreciate it.

-- Kyle (midtnbuddy@aol.com), January 04, 2000.

I also meant to say that was in early 97. OOPs 1997

-- Kyle (midtnbuddy@aol.com), January 04, 2000.