My mother is on oxygen. What is the realistic probability of danger if we use a kerosene heater or fireplace in one large room if she stays about fifteen feet away?

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My mom desperately needs to use the oxygen nearly constantly.

The only other alternative during a prolonged power outage would be to take her to the school gym shelter or the hospital.

She has (maybe foolishly) cooked over an open flame at the stove while attached to her tubing, without problems.

The tubing is the type which goes directly into your nostrils, through two small tubes attached to a longer one, which is leading from the tank (or electric diffuser during normal use when the power is on).

My question is:

Does anyone know of the realistic probability of fire hazard if the equipment is kept far from the heat source?

It seems to me that this could be reasonably done.

-- mabel (mabel_louise@yahoo.com), December 28, 1999

Answers

Mabel, as you know Oxygen is extremely combustible.
I knew an old man that had to carry his oxygen
bottles wherever he went. He was also a chain
smoker. He would take a hit of Oxygen then take
a puff on his cigarette. I thought that was pretty
dangerous but he never had a problem. Other than
his habit that is.

-- spider (spider0@usa.net), December 28, 1999.

I don't know about the safety aspect, but I do know that you need to use clear k-1 not the kerosene with red dye. The red dye gives you splitting headaches (at least in most cases). just thought I would add that in case you are new to kerosene heaters.

-- Bob Grove (mediatrix@mediatrixtours.com), December 28, 1999.

Is it actually a tank or a "concentrator"???

How much is it set for? (under 3 lpm, or more than that)

does it run continuously?

If she stays AWAY from the heater, even AFTER she takes it off I would SUSPECT that you SHOULD be OK. (hope there are enough weasel words in that ;-)).

REMEMBER that what the canula does is to fill the air in FRONT of the face with additional oxygen, as well as the pharynx (nose, back of throat etc). this will tend to drift down and the clothing will tend to have an elevated concentration of Oxygen in the air around the fibers on the front of her clothing.

IOW: BE Careful, be prudent and stay on the other side of the room......

The O2 doesn't burn it makes everything ELSE burn SO much easier

Chuck

whose Paramedic instructor demonstrated the difference with a cigarette once by blowing out without O2 and then by blowing out WITH O2. Left a white flame 12 inches long and cigarette gone in under 1 sec.........HIGHLY impressive and cautionary.

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), December 28, 1999.


Wow.

Thanks, Chuck.

She has it set for 2 lpm.

She obtained extra tanks for a potential power outage, but if the electricity is on she can use the concentrator. (I mistakenly called it a diffuser above.)

-- mabel (mabel_louise@yahoo.com), December 28, 1999.


Oxygen is nonflammable, but if the cannister is allowed to vent into a small space, such as a closet, the risk of combustion of the materials in the space is increased. For normal use with assisted breathing in a larger room, this should not pose a problem.

http://www.qrc.com/hhmi/science/labsafe/lcss/lcss65.htm

-- a (a@a.a), December 28, 1999.



Mabel,

Oxygen is not a flammable gas. It makes up a significant portion of the air we breath. Also, oxygen at the ususally encountered concentrations around a medical device should not lower the temperature at which otherwise flammable objects ignite.

However, once ignition occurs, higher concentrations of oxygen will cause proportionately (?) faster burn rates. This means that in the presence of elevated concentrations of oxygen, a spark which might otherwise go unnoticed might quickly grow to a conflagration.

Now, I beleive that the gasses your mom exhales are not high enough in O2 concentration to cause a noticeable affect on burn rates. I do think it advisable for all concerned to keep a save distance from any open space heater, but should not think your mom needs to take any unusual precautions. Please note that people under O2 therapy should be monitored while very near an open flame to ensure they remain alert and do not 'lose' their 'connection'.

This seems to me to be common sense, but if anyone more learned disagrees, I would appreciate an update.

-- Undergraduate (Not@chemist.com), December 28, 1999.


I'm not reading your question right I know .... but this is my take. Presumably your Mom is on O2 becuase she needs it. BOth a wood fire and a kerosene heater will release particulates into your room air, no matter how deftly you handle them. Some people with asthma , bronchitis or senstivie respairatory systems find their condition aggravated by kero-smudge, and others by wood smoke. Personally, I find the kero-smudge by far the worse of the two. It makes me hack and hack somehting awful. You should consider a "smokeless" heat source, like the new BLACKCAT Coleman propane heaters: little portablel propane heaters that twist onto a 16 oz canister of propane. These are safe and rated for indoor use, and wil have little to no particulate residue that might aggravate your mom's condition. If you go with kerosene, get methanol (methyl alcohol) at the hardware of pharmacy and add it to kerosene (K-1 only) at the rate of 1 oz to 5 gals, to promote cleaner burning and elminmate soot. I would not be wooried about o2 in a room with kerosene or a live flame, as long as the O2 source was kept from close prozimity with the flame.

>"<

-- SH (squirrel@huntr.com), December 28, 1999.


Mabel Most people requiring Oxygen do so because of some type of respiratory illness or lung decease . Even clean burning kerosene heaters emit by-products that can cause stress to the respiratory system. I think this is as much a concern as a flash hazzard problem. I have asthma and can not tolerate long exposures to a kerosene heater. If your mother doesn't mind the kerosene fumes I think you can be relatively safe with normal precautions.

-- SHOCKWAVE (VISSION441@AOL.COM), December 28, 1999.

My mother is on O2 as well, using the cannula in the nose as you describe. Check with the company that supplies oxygen regarding distance from flame.

Our pulmonologist said that cooking at the stove is not a problem as long as she doesn't put her nose down by the flame.

I would store the oxygen very far from the kerosun heater, but I dont see how it would be a danger to her if she was sitting 15 feet away, and the only 02 source was that coming out of the cannula.

BTW, we had a lighted aladdin lamp on our Christmas dinner table, at which she sat with her 02, and it wasn't a problem for her. As far as a fireplace goes, with the big open flame, you should ask the medical supply co.

How many bottles of O2 do you have on hand? We have three tall bottles, which will each provide about 56 hrs of gas at 2 liters/minute. Since she uses 1 1/2 liter/minute, we expect we will get more out of them, maybe three days worth apiece, for 9 days of emergency 02 in the event of an outage. (She is normally on an oxygen concentrator, not tanks.) We changed supply companies two weeks ago because the previous one could not give us the emergency backup we required. They would only provide four or five 6 hr. bottles at a time, and said they'd make deliveries daily if needed. Yeah, right. And where would they get all the extra bottles they'd need for all the pts. on concentrators. Their response to us was basically: don't worry, nothing's going to happen.

When we went to the new hospital supply company, the manager said she had not thought about the possibility of power outages and how it would affect their customers. "Gee, I'll bet other people are going to be calling about this," she said. By the way, if your mom is on a concentrator, both the Invacare and Puritan brands say on their websites that their products are compliant and/or have no Y2k issues.

Avoid taking your mom to a shelter if you can find a safe way around it. If her lungs are compromised, the last thing she needs is being exposed to a lot of kids with colds and viruses. (Disclaimer: I'm not a medical person - just my opinion.)

Take care - hope you and she get through safely.

-- 5R2K (fiver2000@yahoo.com), December 28, 1999.


Just a note for those using oxygen concentrators -- they make a room warm, and they make noise. When using one, try to completely air entire house out once a day. We choose peak warmth, @ 2:30 in afternoon, and open all doors and windows fully for about 4 minutes. Makes a huge difference.

We do this for all our patients, to keep fresh oxygenated air circulating and to flush out stale odors. Starting at one end of house, open everything, go back to starting point, pause one minute, then start closing everything -- works well. Gotta breathe!

Do your best to keep a respectful distance between oxygen < -- > flames, and maintain watchfulness while oxygen is in use. Those spare tall cannisters of oxygen could become high-blast rockets under the confluence of ignition circumstances. Our medical equipment provider has a story about one shooting up thru 11 floors of concrete in a hospital ...

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), December 28, 1999.



Thank you to everyone... (Hi, A & L.)

This is excellent and relevant information.

Off in search of a Blackcat...

-- mabel (mabel_louise@yahoo.com), December 28, 1999.


What did people do before there were oxygen tanks?

Presumably, that's what they'll be doing in the future.

-- hello (to@the.past), December 28, 1999.


Good luck, Mabel!

Chuck said just what I was going to, and likely more legibly. Just want to confirm what he said. BTW, my background is Respiratory Therapy and I worked for a home care company so I do know whereof I speak. Make sure the tanks are well secured; the rocket effect that A&L mentioned most often occurs when the neck of the tank is broken by it falling over.

-- Tricia the Canuck (jayles@telusplanet.net), December 28, 1999.


Wish I could give some re-assuring, feel-good advice here - ain't possible.

Any time gaseous O2 and open flames mix - there is a greatly increased chance of extremely rapid combustion of anything flamable: bedding, clothes, the mattress, etc all won't "explode" but rather just burn very rapidly. Obviously, potentially deadly. "Warm" heat - no flames is much safer - but would require electrical heat - even a "shielded" flame such as a kerosene heater (rather than a fireplace or coleman lantern or open stove or candle) is much more dangerous than electric heat.

Also, it is an unavoidable potential if only one room in the house can be heated, or if electricity is out so an alternative heater can be used.

---..---...

Unfortunately, I can't figure out any way of "testing" the safety of the O2 system in the bed prior to the incident - at best all you'd be able to say is that "When the heater was 8 feet away, the bed didn't burn up - this time."

Next time - when stray air currents distribute the O2 differently, or when O2 flow is slightly higher, or whenroom temperature is higher/lower - flames "may" start.

Even if "tested" - WHAT IF YOU WERE TOO CLOSE, AND THE TEST FAILS? All in a sudden you have a living room full of flames, an unsecured O2 system feeding the flames, and smoke everywhere.

Call your local fire marshall - ask for some specific guidelines, see if you can get priority on heat/power services - if they are lost, when they recover, at least you'll get them back first. Obviusly, he wants to prevent accidents, rather than fight fires - so he will be more "conservative" than any of our observations.

Remember too that we are only assuming that some services willl be lost - they might not be. But in this case, lives are at stake, at risk is a potentially very painful death, and very dangerous fire to everyone else close by.

-- Robert A Cook, PE (Marietta, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), December 28, 1999.


My God... ANY OIL PRODUCT grease, kero, gas, vasoline... will spontaneously combust in the presence of 100% O2. It seems to me the kids at the colleges are about half right. Oxygen is not combustible but that is because combustion is defined as the combination of a combustible/flameable material and oxygen in a chemical reaction. God... send them to school, they eat the books.

-- (...@.......), December 28, 1999.


Mabel, I am an R.N. and at my homecare jobs many of the patients that use a concentrator keep it outside the room (due to the noise and excessively heating up the room) and use longer tubing (you can order longer tubing from your homecare supply company. Of course that added heat might be useful. Hope this helps.

-- Debi (LongTimeLurker@shy.com), December 28, 1999.

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