pulling well pump

greenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) Preparation Forum : One Thread

I know it's late in the game, very late, but can anyone give me advice on how to pull a submersible well pump that is hung up? The particulars are: well casing is 6 inches, pump is hung on 4 feet of galvanized then plastic, pump will come up about 2-3 feet and then meets resistance. The well & pump guy was out two weeks ago to pull the old and install a new hand pump. When he ran into trouble, he said, "keep constant upward pressure on it, and it will usually come. Call me when it's out." Then he left. Two weeks later, it still isn't coming out. Any advice? We have water stored up, but I would feel MUCH better if the well were operational. Oh, one last thing. The submersible pump has been unused for the last 15 years. Old owners switched to rural water, and never bothered to do anything more with the old well. Thanks for any potential solutions. J

-- J (Y2J@home.com), December 27, 1999

Answers

--J; Looks like you have a problem, it also sounds like the pump is swelled in the well caseing. That's normal if not used. Probably rusted to the side of the well. I have to say you have tried a comalong type device? Or if that doesn't work find a guy with a boom/wrecker and try pulling it up that way??? But I think you have a swelled pump. Or it's lodged with sand between the wall of the caseing and the pump itself. Have you tried pouring water down the well caseing to wash it clear?? I'll give you and idea what I had many years ago, The well caseing was drilled 328' and welded every 20', when the caseing hit water the caseing cracked and we lost the 4" pump and well too. had to redrill the well 50 ft from the original location. Explain more of what you have so others can decide what to do .

-- Furie (furieart@dnet.net), December 27, 1999.

Furie, Thanks for the info. I have not tried a come along yet for fear of tearing the pump off the pipe. That is why the well & pump guy didn't try and horse it out. But it is getting down to crunch time, and I figure if it tears off as we try and pull it out, we really aren't in much worse shape than we are now. Is it still possible to put a hand pump down the well if the old submersible pump is stuck down in the casing somewhere? J

-- J (Y2J@home.com), December 28, 1999.

J, I've installed and removed a lot of sub pumps over the years. It is, fortunately, very uncommon to have this problem. I haven't personally seen it. However, I know that if the well wasn't properly constructed, it can cave in on your pump. You don't say how deep the pump is installe, nor why the former owners decided to switch to "rural" water. Do you mean "city" water?

It's strange that the pump will come up two or three feet before meeting resistance. Is it hard to tell how much it will come up? This is a serious question. Like, are you stretching the pipe?

I'd go to your local watermaster's office, or whatever equivalent office you may have, and find out who the driller was, and if he is obligated to repair the situation.

Also, ask the driller if he can come out with a puller. They often have a variety of trick tools in their inventory which are designed for just this type of situation.

If all else fails, you can just pull it out, with a come along or other winch (or wench, if you have a good stout one), and hope that the thing either comes out or that the pipe breaks off down at the pump and not up near the ground, as the latter would cause a bit of a problem installing another one. If the pipe (and wire, and pull rope, if there is one) come out, it's no big deal to put another pump right above the old one. But, realize you may have the well cave again, if it's not constructed right.

If you can find a well log at the watermaster's office, you should at least be able to find out how deep the well is, how deep the six inch casing is, etc. If the hole is cased all the way down, there's probably a broken or bent casing. Unusual, but it happens. If it's only cased part way down, the pump may be installed lower than the casing. Sometimes this is ok, sometimes not. Depends.

Good luck

ALK

-- Al K. Lloyd (all@ready.now), December 28, 1999.


Al, The pump is somewhere around 40 feet down. The casing is 100 feet down to bedrock, then the bore hole through the bedrock went another 80 feet to hit the water, or so I have been told. If this is the case, then the pump can't be below the casing. A bent casing would explain it, though. It may very well be the pipe stretching for that first couple of feet that the pump will move freely, I don't know. Rural water is like normal city water, it is just municipal water out in the sticks. The rural water districts in this part of the state stretch out all over the place. The old owners said the only thing wrong with the well water when they quit using it 15 years ago was that it was hard. The testing we had done on the well confirmed that it is good water as far as no nitrates/bacteria, if we could just get the old pump out/new pump in. Thanks for the info, I was thinking the same thing, in that, if it breaks off far enough down the hole, it won't be a problem. Have you ever heard of keeping continuous upward pressure over a period of days working? Thanks again, J

-- J (Y2J@home.com), December 28, 1999.

J, that is a rather unusual setting for the pump. If the water was found at 180 feet, with the casing down to 100 feet, one would normally set the pump either at about 170 feet (if the driller is good enough to know that the bedrock won't collapse--all bedrock is not created equal) or otherwise at 100 feet. If your pump were set at either 100 feet, or especially at forty feet, it would indicate that you have an very, very strong well with a very, very high amount of artesian pressure. It just doesn't sound right. You say "or so I have been told" Does this mean that you're not sure of the pump setting, or just that you're not sure of the depth of the well and casing?

If what you have told me is really true, the two or three feet of lift you can do on the pump can't be the drop pipe stretching. It just won't stretch that much over 36 feet (assuming it's not hanging on some very weird, flexible pipe, which I seriously doubt.

So, if we assume that the pump is actually loose enough in the casing to be able to rise, perhaps it is just that you have a very tight torque arrester. This is a rubber do-hickey which is desinged to help prevent the pump from spinning when it starts up. They can be kind of tight. If this is the case, perhaps a continuous upward pressure could move it up.

If you simply cannot get it UP, maybe you could add more pipe, and drop it DOWN. If your pump is installed the way we do it here in Oregon (when we are hanging a pump on poly pipe), there will be spacers every ten feet or so. These would prevent you from dropping another pump alongside the drop pipe on your existing pump. But if you could drop the pump without adding more spacers on the added pipe, you could easily drop another pump alongside the pipe.

I'd be interested in learning where your well is located, and what type of formation you are in. It is a strange situation all around, in my experience. But I have no experience in areas other than the Pacific Northwest, so I am ready to be surprised by the geology in another area.

I do still recommend that you seek the well log from your watermaster; you could find out more than hearsay information if you are able to locate it.

ALK Al, The pump is somewhere around 40 feet down. The casing is 100 feet down to bedrock, then the bore hole through the bedrock went another 80 feet to hit the water, or so I have been told. If this is the case, then the pump can't be below the casing. A bent casing would explain it, though. It may very well be the pipe stretching for that first couple of feet that the pump will move freely, I don't know. Rural water is like normal city water, it is just municipal water out in the sticks. The rural water districts in this part of the state stretch out all over the place. The old owners said the only thing wrong with the well water when they quit using it 15 years ago was that it was hard. The testing we had done on the well confirmed that it is good water as far as no nitrates/ bacteria, if we could just get the old pump out/new pump in. Thanks for the info, I was thinking the same thing, in that, if it breaks off far enough down the hole, it won't be a problem. Have you ever heard of keeping continuous upward pressure over a period of days working? Thanks again, J

-- J (Y2J@home.com), December 28, 1999.

-- Al K. Lloyd (all@ready.now), December 28, 1999.



Al, Again thanks for the info. We are in the midwest. The casing/bore info is from the last owner of the farm. He lived here for 50 years, and I am confident that is right. The pump only being 40 feet down is the guesstimate from the well & pump guy when he was out here helping me get a sample before I proceeded any further in trying to reactivate the well. That info may be very wrong. I spoke with the well & pump guy today, and he is giving me a 25% chance of success when he pulls it (from his professional experience in these matters). He said that if the pump doesn't come, it will eventually clog the casing, (as it rusts, I guess) and then I'll be back to no well. I don't feel that I have much more choice than to hope & pray that he can get it out. I am going to try and locate the well info at the courthouse or wherever they keep it. Thanks for that insight, it may provide a clue as to what is going on down there. Thanks again. J

-- J (Y2J@home.com), December 28, 1999.

J, a good reason not to use PVC pipe but stainless steel instead. You can ram it around a bit more. Because the pipe is most likely in 10 ft segments I would consider hooking something a little bit stiffer and sturdier, ie metal pipe, to the upper end and see if you cannot push the pump back down and out of the way. Use well pipe that can be screwed on and in 20 lengths. You only need to get it about 15 feet below your water table if you are going to use a hand pump with a lift cylinder. Your cylinder needs to be 10 ft below the ater table. Do I make sense? Quit trying to come up and instead push it back down losing as little pipe as you can at the upper end. Then when you put in your new hand pump, do it right with stainless steel pipe and rods. Our well for our handpump is 150 ft and our water level is 40 ft and our lift cylinder is at 60 ft.

Taz

-- Taz (Tassi123@aol.com), December 28, 1999.


J, Use a weight (large nut or similar object) on a string and check the actual depth to water in your well. This will give you some factual information to work with. Personally, I don't like the idea of plastic pipe for a submersible pump. Ours is on 1" galvanized, 21 foot long sections, and it is more work to pull it, but I also am more confident that it will safely support the weight and movement of the pump. It is possible that you could just abandon the old pump and pipe and install a new one along side it. Our well (with 6" casing) has a 4" diameter submersible pump down about 140 feet, and water is at about 110 feet. We are able to have a hand pump on the same well, with the pipe and cylinder down alongside the submersible pump pipe, with no problem. Something similar might work for you if you can't remove the old pump and pipe- there may still be room along side the old stuff, depending on the water levels, etc.

Jim

-- Jim (jiminwis@yahoo.com), December 28, 1999.


Taz, are you really meaning stainless steel pipe, and not galvanized pipe? Nothing surprises me too much any more, but I can't imagine that, having never seen it here in Oregon. How much does it cost?

Jim, it's pretty standard procedure, when using poly pipe at least, to put spacers every ten feet. Unfortunately, this makes it impractical to test the water level in the way you suggest, as you will likely get your weight and string stuck. On my well, I put a second piece of pipe (one inch schedule 40 PVC) down the well before installing the pump. Perforated the pipe with several 1/8" holes. Now I can drop a 1/2" galvanized male adaptor (for poly pipe) down the one inch pipe on a piece of wire. The one inch pvc pipe extends up through the sanitary well seal through a second hole (I use a seal which is supposed to be used for a jet pump--it has two holes instead of one.

I personally will never use anything but deep well poly pipe or schedule 40, or preferably schedule 80, PVC pipe to hang a sub pump. I used to install and repair pumps for a living. Typically the galvanized was gone off the drop pipes when I pulled a pump to repair it. It looked very gross, and I decided I don't like the idea of all those poisonous metals in my water supply.

Another obvious advantage is the money you save by installing/removing the pump yourself, if you use plastic, as you don't have to have a boom truck to lift the heavy steel pipe out of the hole.

I've installed LOTS of sub pumps on deep well poly, and the onlyh problem I've ever experienced is a wire got its insulation rubbed through ONE time. This is ove a period of twenty-four years, and I have rental properties whose sub pumps I've installed this way. The main thing to be sure to do is use a good torque arrester, put spacers every ten feet, and use lots of electric tape to keep electric wires tight against pipe (I usually tape it at each spacer and halfway between spacers)

ALK -- Taz (Tassi123@aol.com), December 28, 1999.

J, Use a weight (large nut or similar object) on a string and check the actual depth to water in your well. This will give you some factual information to work with. Personally, I don't like the idea of plastic pipe for a submersible pump. Ours is on 1" galvanized, 21 foot long sections, and it is more work to pull it, but I also am more confident that it will safely support the weight and movement of the pump. It is possible that you could just abandon the old pump and pipe and install a new one along side it. Our well (with 6" casing) has a 4" diameter submersible pump down about 140 feet, and water is at about 110 feet. We are able to have a hand pump on the same well, with the pipe and cylinder down alongside the submersible pump pipe, with no problem. Something similar might work for you if you can't remove the old pump and pipe- there may still be room along side the old stuff, depending on the water levels, etc.

Jim

-- Jim (jiminwis@yahoo.com), December 28, 1999.

-- al k lloyd (jumpoff@ekoweb.net), December 31, 1999.


Moderation questions? read the FAQ