For any one planning to use propane as a back-up fuel please be careful.

Propane is heavier than air and as such, storage of any container should be outside. Storage in a shed away from open flame is alright but be careful.

Propane expands with the rise in temperature, so if your local retailer overfilled your tank when it was 10 degrees and you move it into a warm room, you have a serious problem. the expanding gas will be vented out the safety relief valve creating an extreme fire hazard.

Many small resellers and 20lb exchange location are notorious for being untrained so please be careful.

Also the white fog that you see when they fill is liquid propane(you actually burn the vapor) This white liquid is close to -44 degrees and can freeze burn flesh.

Propane is a good fuel when handled properly, but like anything else its deadly when misused.

-- FRODO (FRODO@MIDDLEEARTH.COM), December 26, 1999

Answers

There seems to be a bunch argueing about the safety of using propane devices indoors. Anything that burns uses up oxygen, not arguements there. The big question is how much carbon monoxide is produced? On a stove with a nice blue flame coming out of all the little holes, since that is an open flame, there should be no significant carbon monoxide, is this true? On lanterns that use mantles, do these produce any carbon monoxide? Does it make any difference if the mantle is powered by propane, coleman fuel, kerosene (alladin lamps), gasoline (coleman duel fuel) or whatever liquid hydrocarbon (PetroMax)?

-- R.K. Watt (rkwatt@hotmail.com), December 26, 1999.

I would agree that the chances of carbon monoxide are low from a gas light.

The change in burning characteristics that would create carbon monoxide would be noticable on the mantle.(usually they burn out or blacken.)

A good blue flame is a good sign that the air/fuel ratio is good. Often there is some yellow at the tips from particles in the air. Almost all cases of carbon monoxide I have seen are from cracked heat exchangers in furnaces where the homer was unaware of a problem.

I am told that liquid fuels are much less likely to produce carbon monoxide than gaseous fuels but I am not certain.

Still, in a modern home I think a batery operated carbon monoxide detector is prudent advice. Many of these homes are so air tight that air for combustion is quickly used up leading to a situation that could produce carbon monoxide.

-- FRODO BAGGINS (FRODO@MIDDLEEARTH.com), December 26, 1999.

Propane is Gods little gift to us all. Please do not abuse it...

-- Hank Hill (Hank Hill@Texas.Propane), December 26, 1999.

From a search of the net earlier, clean burning propane does not produce carbon monoxide, only carbon dioxide and water vapor. It is important to ensure that the oxygen in the air is not depleted, otherwise you will not get a complete burn and carbon monoxide will be produced. So make sure you open a window near the device a couple of inches and don't turn the flame up any higher than necessary.

If you are going to be using ANY open flame device during Y2K, get a BATTERY operated carbon monoxide detector and don't leave any unvented devices burning while you sleep.

Since propane is heavier than air, if it leaks it will pool in basements, etc. and can ignite if it comes in contact with an open flame or spark ... So take extreme care that there are no leaks and use soapy water to check your hose connections.

-- John (jh@NotReal.ca), December 26, 1999.

In this state (CA) and maybe all over, the propane companies put an odor...otherwise propane is oderless. You should learn what propane smells like, as that is sometimes a clue to a little leak that has developed. This odor, at least here, attracts a large bottle green irridescent fly. (insect). So if you see the flies, start sniffing around, and any dish soap and a small brush should help you locate any leaks.

-- Mary (CAgdma@home.com), December 26, 1999.

Some questions for the knowledgable:

I'm looking for a way to prevent my 20# tanks from walking away at night.

My first idea was to seal them in plastic along with a bit of garden hose (sealed in a hole in the plastic) for venitlation and keep them inside my garage (at least they're out of sight) with the hose just under the door. What do you think?

My second idea was to bury the tanks in a box or in plastic again with some hose for venitlation.

Any other suggestions?

How long do you think a 20# tank will last, say cooking 3 meals a day and coffee a few times for 4 people on a two burner 10,000 BTU max per element camping stove?

FRODO:

You said: "Many small resellers and 20lb exchange location are notorious for being untrained so please be careful." I've just had a number of new tanks just filled at my local gas station. What should I have been careful about and how can I check that they are ok?

-- Jeff Sanders (JSanders@nospam.com), December 27, 1999.

Jeff, if you have the new style propane tanks (which by the way have a different style of connector than the new one and won't fit older appliances but you can purchase adaptors) you don't have to worry about overfilling since they have a built-in float/shutdown/fill valve and can NOT be overfilled. The old style tanks can be filled up 100% which leaves no room for expansion, except by pressure relief.

-- Ken Seger (kenseger@earthlink.net), December 27, 1999.

As long as the proper amount of oxygen is available for combustion, no CO is produced. THIS IS TRUE OF ALL FOSSIL FUEL BURNING APPLIANCES. Any condition that limits oxygen will set up carbon monoxide production. This may be caused by depleted amounts of available "fresh" air in the room. It can also be caused by a blocked air inlet on a burner tube, leading to "too rich" fuel mix. It can also be produced when the flame touches the surrounding metal of the heat exchanger. Dirty ports on a burner may redirect the flame to come in contact with the metal wall of the heat exchanger, leading to incomplete combustion. A blocked flue pipe (bird & squirrel nests) will also lead to CO production because not enough oxygen is being pulled through the furnace for proper combustion.

A CRACKED HEAT EXCHANGER DOES NOT NECESSARILY LEAD TO CARBON MONOXIDE PRODUCTION, BUT MAY LIKELY SET UP CONDITIONS THAT PRODUCE IT. ONCE CARBON MONOXIDE STARTS BEING PRODUCED, A HEAT EXCHANGER WITH CRACKS OR HOLES IS EXTREMELY UNSAFE!!! IT IS THEREFORE IMPERATIVE TO CONDEMN FURNACES THAT HAVE BAD HEAT EXCHANGERS.

-- TM (mercier7@pdnt.com), December 27, 1999.