Reading through the information on this forum I am wondering why there are no IT professionals, power plant engineers , water treatment workers..contibuting to this forum. I am missing the facts.

-- test bug (testbest@hotmail.com), December 24, 1999

Answers

You are very shallow. How long have you been here? Many if not most here are IT professionals, Do you go through your credentials on every post.

-- none (none@none.com), December 24, 1999.

Actually, Its a slow day for the forum. Go check in the archives. Lots of IT info there. (Myself included if 2nd level IT counts)

-- Billy Boy (Rakkasan101st@Aol.com), December 24, 1999.

Yep, I might be considered another IT professional (If being the guy who picks up the little white trash bags along the side of the freeway counts).

-- Butt Nugget (catsbutt@umailme.com), December 24, 1999.

bug,

I'm not sure how far you've read into this forum, but, if you'll read further, you will soon find that there are professionals in every aread you mention. As far as what information they have to offer, you will find that there is considerable, and often contentious, disagreement among those employed within the same profession.

-- (RUOK@yesiam.com), December 24, 1999.

I am an IT professional with roughly 20 years experience and have been contributing here for about a year and half.

I can also verify that Ed Yourdon is an IT professional (grin).

Can someone point test bug to the "who are we" threads?

-- Arnie Rimmer (Arnie_Rimmer@usa.net), December 24, 1999.

I'm not an IT professional. I'm the IT professional's worst nightmare: a well informed, experienced USER of complex business systems. Up until now I didn't think it necessary for me to announce myself. I'm probably finally getting sensitive from all the disparaging remarks from people who seek to polarize the issue. Y2K is either: No problem or TEOTWAWKI. The supporters of the latter being kooks.

Not everyone here thinks the end is near - just the begining of a great deal of discomfort.

-- gary (a@a.com), December 24, 1999.

Gary; so your're the one keeping me awake at night... ;-) Well ya better stop it or I'll change your password.

-- (...@.......), December 24, 1999.

I think "test bug" is being a little sarcastic.

But for those who don't know, my "survey says" that we have at least 875 man-years of programming experience here.

Oh, and a power plant engineer or two... <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), December 24, 1999.

-- test bug,

There are no IT professionals actively contributing to this forum. TimeBomb 2000 is a joke only good for a few laughs. Most are techno-dweebs that do not understand anything about the real problem. It's fun to screw with them buy using different names and reverse psychology.

Doug

-- Doug (Doug@itsover.com), December 24, 1999.

Doug; Could you please take the time to explain the real problem to me? I am just a techno-dweeb who needs all the help he can get. Enlighten me o' wise one.

-- (...@.......), December 24, 1999.

i am starting to enjoy this forum. humor is the best medicine. apocaliptic thoughts are distructive in the first place. that this world is in trouble yes of course but y2k is only one of the million by products porduced by man kind. back to the roots!

-- test bug (testbug@hotmail.com), December 24, 1999.

Yes, the humor is abound. Like when the King of Spain wishes Jim Lord;

A royal thank you, Jim! Happy holidays to you and yours.

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), December 24, 1999.

Yeah right, Happy Holidays Jim. I hope your aim is straight and true when when your blasting those Polly slime that are trying to break into your home for food and water. The best to you and yours...

Like i've said many times, this forum is a joke.

Doug

-- Doug (Doug@itsover.com), December 24, 1999.

Hey Doug,

Y2K or not, do you mean to tell me that you wouldn't defend your home and your family against some thug? I'm sure glad you're not my dad.

Speaking of jokes...

Tick... Tock... <:00= ...

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), December 24, 1999.

"Y2K is either: No problem or TEOTWAWKI. The supporters of the latter being kooks. "

I should have said "Y2K is either: No problem or TEOTWAWKI. The non- supporters of the former being kooks."

I was hurrying out for that last run to the store (Flint - for Xmas not ammo(g)).

-- gary (a@a.com), December 24, 1999.

[0x1b

-- spider (spider0@usa.net), December 24, 1999.

Sorry Spider, there is no escape...

-- Chris Tisone (c_tisone@hotmail.com), December 24, 1999.

Sysman,

Speaking of jokes...

You have 7 days.

Tick... Tock... <:00= ...

I'll be looking for you and a few others. Let's compare notes then.

Doug

-- Doug (Doug@itsover.com), December 24, 1999.

OK Doug,

God willing (and the power and telco and my ISP and this server and all of the routers and switches between here and there, hoping that they're all Y2K OK, or at least enough of them to let me get here), I'LL BE HERE!

Do you feel lucky today, PUNK?

Tick this... Tock... <:00= !!!

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), December 24, 1999.

PS - and happy holidays, Doug. Ho ho ho... <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), December 24, 1999.

A X-mas present from the archives, under techno-geek. I've added a few others from reading the forum, but start counting here:

As a result of mostly FM's last 2 threads, we have at least 477 man- years of programming people on this forum! I wonder if we can get to 1,000? Hardliner (I know, you're hardware but close enough)? MVI? Results so far: 35 - Mr. Yourdon (from his bio)

31 - Sysman

36 - No_Spam

36 - Dean

35 - Ray

30 - Mike Cumbie

30 - The Rimmers

30 - Jean

29 - John Hebert

28 - RD

24 - Ron

24 - Ann

23 - Dan T

22 - Can Not

20 - J

17 - Jolly

16 - -

11 - Tim

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), March 10, 1999

Answers Whoaa - slow down Sysman - I'm an Operator too, just like uncle De jager, - so no doubt bring a much needed sense of anarchy to the proceedings - also, got "promoted" awhile ago so bung on about another 12 ano's. later, Andy

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), March 10, 1999.

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I guess we can include "operators" - what do you think gang (grin) <:) =

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), March 10, 1999.

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Although I'm what's referred to as a 'short-termer'... you can tag on another 8 yrs...programming and design in Cobol/CICS on mainframes... a little RPGIII...and then C on PCs... if one year of web site design counts (to me it doesn't), add on another year. Short-termer weighs in, -- Got substance?

-- Shelia (shelia@active-stream.com), March 10, 1999.

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What is the ratio of computor programmers to non-computor programmers on this forum? That's what I'm interested in.

-- Red Ermine (fearzone@home.com), March 10, 1999.

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Shelia - you should get double-credit for CICS! Red - I'm sure we're the minority, but I can't wait for the next troll to ask "So what makes you guys Y2K experts?" <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), March 10, 1999.

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Have not been a programmer for 62 years. Guess we could regard those who started in 63 as veterans. I sure do appreciate and respect the wealth of knowledge that you are sharing.

-- Watchful (seethesea@msn.com), March 10, 1999.

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Rod - makes no difference. I mix with progs, ops, sytems guys and jqp all the time.

It's pretty obvious who has a grasp on things and who hasn't - in many cases, if not most, the non-technical folks have a better clue.

Programmers, alas to say, are very micro in their outlook (I'm generalising!!!), they have a lot of similar character traits, same goes with phm's, bunch of arseholes to the man without exception ( OK, one or two, and they are PH women :) ), IMHO the people I mix with professionally do NOT have a clue.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), March 10, 1999.

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Sorry - Red.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), March 10, 1999.

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Andy - I think Red was refering to non-computer people. You know, people like Richard, a nuclear engineer. And wadda ya mean "micro outlook" - I was only kidding about including operators! <:)))=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), March 10, 1999.

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Sysman, >"So what makes you guys Y2K experts?"

Without the technological interconnections, the psychological dimensions, the management aspects, political realities, and so on, Y2k would be just an ordinary technical problem.

What were the areas of expertise used by the people who really got the world to think seriously about Y2k? Public relations (de Jager), writing skill (Yourdon), scaring-the-pants-off-people (North -- though some may describe his talents differently :-).

Before those people brought Y2k to general public awareness, what happened when programmers -- the guys who wrote ads and articles in the computer industry publications one or two decades ago -- tried to raise the Y2k alarm? Not much.

Now, I will agree that programming experience is important: it is because I have seen the combination of programmers and computers engage in Y2k-like behavior over and over that I can draw analogies to explain the technical problems to my non-geek acquaintances. But let's not overemphasize that aspect.

I think it's the various combinations of life experiences that enable folks to "get" Y2k.

Has anyone surveyed the ages of forum participants, regardless of the area of career experience or how much time they've spent programming?

I understood the two-digit year problem when I was about 16. I didn't really "get" the societal Y2k problem until my mid-forties.

-- No Spam Please (No_Spam_Please@anon_ymous.com), March 10, 1999.

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Sysman: 'you should get double-credit for CICS!' I really liked it...and probably would have continued with mainframes, only they brought in what I considered to be an inferior system and an inferior language to replace it and really put the screws to everyone by putting a person in charge whose only experience was 3 years of programming with that one language. She was too young, undisciplined: there was no such thing as testing in her vocabulary...just put it online...if it brings five other programs down and stops production for the day...no problem... it'll only take six hours to run the slug-O tape back up. I knew five languages...and could translate Assembly into CICS...so I was a bit of a snob...and it really made me weary to see it happen. I learned the new language, no problem...and then learned C and created my own business... making the fatal mistake of thinking custom programming for clueless customers would give me freedom. Boy, was I ever wrong! Good thing I knew my legal Ps and Qs...the doctor I had a contract with brought in a lawyer as his partner. He thought they could renegotiate their contract down to near zero. He was wrong, and only because I had written a good, solid contract did he not challenge me. After that job was finished and I calculated my true profit to be less than $.10 per hour, I went back to my first loves: writing and art.

Which brings me to that comment about programmers being 'micro in their outlook' ... I always thought it was rather the reverse. Most programmers (unless they stay with the same system forever) are forever moving into new territory...exploring something that had they not been programmers they would never have had the occasion to learn. In order to design the system you have to intake an entire area of knowledge, whether it's a tax system, an indigent care billing system, or an astronomical charting system... it's not just number crunching, there are people and communication skills weigh in heavily here...

OK...so I had fun, but that was a long time ago...I'd probably need a month to learn it again.

-- Shelia (shelia@active-stream.com), March 10, 1999.

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'Has anyone surveyed the ages of forum participants..' I have the sense that the predominant age span here is 45-65.

I'm 52.

-- Shelia (shelia@active-stream.com), March 10, 1999.

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No Spam; Right on! Your comment that: "various combinations of life experiences enable folks to get Y2K" is the most succinct observation that I have seen on the subject. One needs a comprehensive understanding of language and a framework of some systems references to begin to conceive of anything that is complex in the abstract.

-- Watchful (seethesea@msn.com), March 10, 1999.

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I agree with you 100% No Spam. There are NO Y2K experts. I'm not really looking for troll ammunition here, that was meant as a joke. I'ld like to think that maybe we can use this to help enlighten the DGI. If we can tell people that this forum has 1,000 man-years in the computer field, and that we are concerned about Y2K, maybe they'll think about the problem a little harder. <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), March 10, 1999.

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YoU STiNKiNG HYeNA!!!! You FoRGot To LiST Me!!! I aM Not A NobODy!!!! You HeAR!!!

-- Dieter (questions@toask.com), March 10, 1999.

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HOw mANy yeARS HavE YoU bEEN ProGrAMmIng DieTEr? NOt iN c i HoPE. <:) =

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), March 10, 1999.

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Shelia, Sorry we lost you. I spent about 2 years doing CICS applications, and about 3 more tuning/administrating it. Had more fun for about 7 years working on a "home grown" CICS type system. Many of the same features, multi-tasking etc. but pure macro-based assembly. Used to "blow the doors off" CICS performance wise! Really enjoyed those days.

Sure you won't consider coming back, maybe next year? I think we'll need all the help we can find! <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), March 10, 1999.

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I'm an industrial maintenance electrician by training.I used to know basic,cpm and dos. I don't know how to program it and I don't want to learn. I just turned 41. I've always lived on the edge of civilized America and have been a (Boy Scout) since I was young. My basic attitude is no one cares about me and mine but me so assume the worst and hope for the best. If I'm wrong Goodie, If I'm right, thank God we prepared.

-- nine (nine_fingers@hotmail.com), March 10, 1999.

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Sysman: 'Sure you won't consider coming back, maybe next year? I think we'll need all the help we can find!' Yes, I have considered it; and determined that if needed after the rollover, I'd be ready and able to do a decent job. Before then, I could be setting myself up as a fall guy/gal.

Here's a story for those who like sci-fi.. or as I call my writing: psi-fi...reading it now in the light of techno-terroism, it comes across differently than when I first wrote it. But I think most here can get the original intent (the eternal struggle for individuation and humanity in a mechanized world controlled by a small minority).

http://www.active-stream.com/ASEstory/Morpheus.htm

-- Shelia (shelia@active-stream.com), March 10, 1999.

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Red, This forum does have its share of programmers. However, please read this forum's "mission statement":

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/policy.tcl?topic=TimeBomb%202000%20% 28Y2000%29

[snip]

About the TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) Forum (to which you can return)

---------------------------------------------------------------------

This forum is intended for people who are concerned about the impact of the Y2000 problem on their personal lives, and who want to discuss various fallback contingency plans with other like-minded people. It's not intended to provide advice/guidance for solving Y2000 problems within an IT organization.

[snip]

-- Kevin (mixesmusic@worldnet.att.net), March 10, 1999.

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Shelia's link <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), March 10, 1999.

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Well folks, we're gtting a little off topic here. All these posts (ok, half mine!) and all we got is 12+8 more. Come on, my professional associates, I'm trying to hit 1,000 man-years here! <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), March 10, 1999.

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Sys, Yep--I can see the beginnings of the article now: followed by the first lines of the first paragraph in some obscure magazine or newspaper (or maybe even Worldnetdaily!): "Veteran Programmers Offer Preparation Tips"

In the ongoing debate about whether the fallout from Y2K in America will be doomsday or a "bump in the road," one of the hottest places to be today is an obscure forum on the Internet, which claims to be home to nearly a thousand veteran computer programmers. . .

Whoo! One the one hand--I'd like to see it go to 1000. On the other, can you spell C-L-O-G-G-E-D S-E-R-V-ER? On the third hand--many more people might become informed enough to trade the purchase of that next six-pack for a non-biodegradable container for storing water.

More veteran programmers lurking out there? Add your name to Sys's list! Sys is now responsible for the "head count!" :)

(I'll write the press release, Ed Yourdon will fund me for distributing it and pigs will some day fly!)

Cheers!

-- FM (vidprof@aol.com), March 10, 1999.

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Sysman --- I've discussed my programming and technical bacground before on this NG, including "years" but won't put a number on it here because I dread being on your list. IMO, there is as high a proportion of DGIs among techies as elsewhere, maybe higher. And the techie DGIs are far more arrogant about it. This, of course, is entirely different than toting up the contributions being made to understanding Y2K, especially on this NG, by those of who are technical GIs (which is huge).

But at least the same amount of contribution is being made to the Y2K disaster by many who never touched a computer but who understand (as PNG puts it) the cultural and human dimensions of this.

For example, those of you who followed Zog's ruminations on "making do" in hundreds of ingenious ways on GN forums last year will know what I mean. North and Milne qualify, whatever one may think of their politics or personalities. Carmichael likewise on the other end of the social-political spectrum.

I still get a buzz out of cool tech gear of all kinds, hardware and software, but I would be less-inclined to pay attention to this NG if it was being promoted or described as the resort of programmers. How boring and irrelevant would that be?

We geeks can blame Y2K all we'd like on others (especially those horrible managers who made us slave away, etc), but it was our own short-term and essentially cowardly approach that created the problem we're now pontificating about in this NG.

I was reading and applying Ed's software engineering insights by the early 80s (and, as he acknowledges, he was hardly alone), but it was PROGRAMMERS (90%) who made fun of wasting all that time on spec, design, inspections, testing and metrics. "Software engineering ... that's for sissies."

.... and it is programmers (70%?) who still make fun of these exact same things, even about Y2K itself. Or else, why "deja vu?"

After forty years of hard evidence about building and maintaining enterprise systems, our profession ranks up there with prostitutes, used car dealers and politicians (think Bill Gates who brilliantly combines the talents of all three because, you see, Windows 2000 will ... get ... us ... there).

This isn't aimed at you, Sysman, you have a good heart and spirit about all this as do almost all the initaled peers you cite above, but let's get real, fellow professionals.

One of the reasons the DGIs won't believe us is because we've been royally screwing them in the mass and in the individual for 40 years while we cheerfully made them totally dependent on our wizardry.

"Oh, we forgot about those two little digits, sorry about that, folks."

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), March 10, 1999.

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O.K., then. . . We've gotta come up with another headline for the presss release! :)

-- FM (vidprof@aol.com), March 10, 1999.

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OOOPS...."press" release. (Heck, not only our we sans search engine, but also spell check!) Cheers!

-- FM (vidprof@aol.com), March 10, 1999.

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Add me for about 7. Add Mrs Driver for 3 (desktop publishing, help desk, user support)

Chuck, a night driver

-- Chuck, a night driver (reinzoo@en.com), March 10, 1999.

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Okay, you were kidding about operators but here's my two cents anyway. Mainframe operator for 10 years at midsize firm. Seen many of the models you've talked about come and go every couple of years. From an operator's perspective we know that programs (even the most important and regularly used) fail regularly and bring in some weary eyed programmer to fix it. We also see the hardware (disk and tape drives usually) fail equally regularly. Sometimes fixes are done in a few hours, sometimes days. And this is just for one single error, not hundreds or thousands that may still be lurking in many y2k "remediated" systems. I vouch also for the many programmer DGIs out there. Talked to one, genius of a guy, he explained how petty the problem was technically, I asked him if he was following the y2k story. He said 'No'. End of discussion. Why bother. His mind was closed and he saw himself as superiorly informed to a nonprogrammer. Also talked to a professor of business with expertise on Japan. Oil imports? "No problem, they can get around a glitch in a few days." His mind was closed also. Talked to another very smart graduate student who reads the news carefully. An optimist. Asked him if he would care to test his optimism (as by reading some of the news we have access to). "No". End of discussion. Another closed minded DWGI. Who will these people listen to? It will take the majority of major news media to all say the same thing before the general public somewhat get it.

-- bdb (forwhat@its.worth), March 10, 1999.

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If you're counting polly's too you can add another 21. That covers everything from operations, system analysis, programming, and project management. Every little bit helps, right? Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), March 10, 1999.

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I was hesitant to post, for I haven't done any mainframe work. Six years experience with C++, VB, TCPIP, Cisco Routers, NT, SCO Unix, Java, IIS, SQL SERVER, VB, Interdev. If you go beyond HTML and the splashy graphics, I would count web stuff. You have can Java apps tapping into legacy systems like AS400 or data warehouses, and that involves some fancy coding. Also, I could tell you some stories about NT Server Pack 4. It's the most Y2k compliant version, but when you install it, some shelfware web-based solutions just won't work with it. Then, when you call the vendor regarding this, they can't guarantee a release date regarding the upgrad. So, do you yank SP 4 and keep your apps running, or try to be compliant, and have angry users?

Don't answer this...just wanted to show that web programmers ARE grappling with Y2k issues too, which should count as experience.

As for the old timers working on the old iron, I bow in your presence :-)

-- Faze the Nation (dazed@confused.com), March 10, 1999.

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Fazed - we're grappling with the same issue. We have a products that run under NT. We tested and it worked fine for us. Problem is our legal department says we need to upgrade to whatever version the vendor says is compliant. I asked how far do we take this? If a vendor says, in November of this year - we thought this version was compliant, we were wrong, you need to upgrade to this version instead. Doesn't leave a lot of time for testing and the like. Legal is probably right, but it don't make it any easier. Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), March 10, 1999.

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Keepin' count, Sys? Time to start a new thread? Lock and load!

-- FM (vidprof@aol.com), March 10, 1999.

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We still haven't heard from Rob Michaels, Steve Hartsman, Flint, Bob Mangus (is he still around?). For an overview of the type of people here, read peoples bios on these threads:

What about you? Our "What about you?"

What about you REDUX

What about you? (third incarnation)

What about you? (revisited)

There is more to understanding Y2K than just "programing man hours" knowledge ;-) One needs the ability to think multi-dimentionaly, as in able to see the big picture, and having some sort of technical penchant helps understanding the technical source of the problem, perhaps quicker, but not a pre-requisite. I've talked to as many DGI programmers as GI's. Before coming to this forum, I was in a techie forum with 90% programmers, and over 2/3 of them were polyannas, non- issue believers (out of around 50 people.) The wide base of knowledge, education and experience here is tremendous, and I believe, essential to get a complete picture of the real meaning and problem of Y2K.

-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), March 10, 1999.

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Add 18 more years Sysman.... COBOL/COBOL II, BAL, IMS/DB

-- (Dawnbringr@aol.com), March 10, 1999.

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Chris: Thanks for remembering me! I have served a 22 year sentence so far. LOL. Haven't been on the forum lately for more than 5 minutes a day due to a massive production cutover at work - should be done soon though. Miss youz guyz, bye, Rob.

-- Rob Michaels (sonofdust@net.com), March 10, 1999.

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count me in for 26 MoVe Immediate

-- MVI (MVI@countmein.com), March 10, 1999.

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20 years in computers, but never above the device driver level. All shipped code for the last 15 years has been in ROM. Also worked in government (doing surveys), as a musician, as a plumber's apprentice, and doing HVAC repairs. Not to mention too many part time and temporary jobs to mention, during the years I was a 'professional student' until the fellowships ran dry.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), March 10, 1999.

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BigDog - I agree with much of what you say. I'm one of the guilty that "made fun of wasting all that time on spec, design, inspections, testing and metrics." I'm also guilty of writing countless programs 15, 20, 30 years ago that used 2 digit years. To be honest, I have no idea how many of those programs are still in production. Hardliner and I had a chat a few days ago about the hardware/OS support for dates. The point is that for decades, most programmers used what the OS gave them - YY. On the other hand, I read a post from John Doe last week that described his company's policy, even 25 years ago, of not using the "system date" but obtaining date information, with 4 digit years, from control cards. The only Y2K problem they are having is with some imported data. So we did have a choice. Few made the correct decision. bdb - I still get involved with operations support. It is going to be living hell when the mega-errors all hit at once. And yes, I see tech NWGI every day.

Faze and Deano - Microsoft now has a "service pack for service pack 4" that supposedly fixes some of the problems you mentioned. Check their site for info.

Thanks for all your input folks. Got to go do some real work for a while. I'll check back later. <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), March 10, 1999.

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Add in 16 yrs. of programming - mainly client/server for last few yrs. for moi. Add in about 5 yrs. of programming for husband - currently in another lifetime at MS.

-- Texan (finallyrained@ranch.com), March 10, 1999.

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Sysman, Better subtract about 7 from the 29. Basic was senior yr h.s. Subtract three yrs college, a years sentence to dental school, some more college and (finally) lib arts b.s. + misc ee courses (included fortran), throw asphalt for a season (while looking for a research position) six month stint as a headhunter, four months at Milwaukee's famous Eddie Dousette's school of programming and presto chango - I was a highly employable programmer...

jh

-- john hebert (jt_hebert@hotmail.com), March 10, 1999.

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Keepin' count, Sys? Time to start a new thread? Lock and load part deux!

-- FM (vidprof@aol.com), March 10, 1999.

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Sysman --- You're an honest dude and I respect you greatly for that. Many of us did know the penalties and most of us could have used four- digit dates reasonably early in the game when there was enough memory, storage et al (say, mid-80s). And while a lot of the software engineering stuff was hype and hustle back then, the core methodology basically added up to the same common sense that had long been applied in engineering disciplines broadly.

Again, to be real, most of us did take shortcuts, sometimes because we didn't know better, sometimes because we were too busy doing something cool and, often, because we just didn't care. Mainly, we could get away with it because the world was becoming so addicted to what we did that they COULDN'T LIVE WITHOUT US.

Indeed, they still can't, mucyht though they'd like to. WE can't, even though we've prepared for 1 to 4 years of chaos. One thing Senator "Pollyanna" Bennett is right about: there is no going back technologically, even if TEOTWAWKI.

In the midst of the world's fury next year about computers and programmers will be gnashed teeth realization that we are still indispensable. No, we'll be even more indispensable, because every government, community and business will have to beg us to help them cobble it all back together ... or rebuild it from scratch.

But you better believe the 21st century is going to slap "engineering" audits, reforms and prospective legal penalties on our profession that will make our heads spin. Or do you believe companies post-Y2K will be able to ship embedded systems off the same line with "identical" chips that behave differently? Dream on. Likewise with code.

Some of us on this NG (prediction: Ed Yourdon among others) will build entire post-Y2K careers trying to keep the regs and penalties semi-reasonable.

We're entering a brave new world, guys, and it's going to change our profession as well as our lives.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), March 10, 1999.

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Call it about 10 in testing, 4 in programming, bunch more in "back door" editing and applications "useage" trying to get the d**m things to do what I actually needed rather than what the programmer thought I needed. Rest in power plant and integrated systems testing - hydro's, leak tests, welding, X-rays, removal, refit, repair, installation, inspection, QA, auditing, studying, teaching, etc. Scheduling, budgetting, planning, managing, .....Total in "getting the whole thing to run" is about 25 - if you consider something past the "programming" level important.

..........

By the way, are you counting 8 hour calendar days, or physical "on- site" hours doing work, or "total applied hours" trying to solve a problem while driving or feeding the kids?

If "total applied hours" is relevent, better double your man-year total.

-- Robert A. Cook, P.E. (Kennesaw, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), March 10, 1999.

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12 years (seems MUCH longer...)

-- Nathan (nospam@all.com), March 10, 1999.

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15 years = hardware head and pc weenie 15 years, Mac weenie 10 years, Novell network admin 5 years (Jill of many trades, mistress of few).

-- Debbie (dbspence@usa.net), March 10, 1999.

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Now, now, don't exaggerate - Mac years don't count. 8<) But the systems and network time does count - twice.

-- Robert A. Cook, P.E. (Kennesaw, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), March 10, 1999.

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BigDog - I hear ya. There was talk about NJ "certifying computer professionals" last year. Haven't heard much about it since then. Robert - Boy, do I hear you! I can't count the times I woke up on the office couch, after a 3-4 hour nap, back at it. Just last year, a few of us were here for 13 weekends in a row, about half 1 day and half both days. So much for the summer. I don't know if we can 2x, but my average 40 hour week has been at least 50, not counting think time.

Thanks. I'll be back when I get home <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), March 10, 1999.

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Add 20 years....mostly mainframe...Cobol/PL/1....almost all online (CICS)...lots of data warehousing lately....slowly entering PC world (VB mostly).

-- seagreen (seagreen@seagreen.com), March 10, 1999.

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If you let in an EE type for doing various manufacturer's Assemby languages, Unix, C (in its + variations), Ada, Fortran and PLC ladder logic programs, I'll kick my twenty-seven years into the pool. WW

-- Wildweasel (vtmldm@epix.net), March 10, 1999.

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Add another 6 for me - healthcare and finance, hardcore transaction processing.

-- (someone@somewhere.com), March 10, 1999.

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Robert E. - Watch it, fellah! My years count! 8-}]

But serially, forks: ever tried any serious programming for the Mac? Back in its early days (as in 1984-5), it was a beast. Once the vendors got into it, they all realized that they had to rethink their approach to designing apps in order to take advantage of the Mac OS and especially the wunnerful user interface (event loops, mouse- downs, screen-position, etc.) Too many vendors just ported over their DOS apps and got clobbered (and rightly so) by the market. Much of the onus was put back on the programmers to create friendly apps. Took some serious design work and major code-jockey creativity and skill to make your app a "Mac" app. Now shoehorn that into 64K (or even *gasp* 128K) of RAM...

Don't be dissing Mac programming. Now Web site design, that's another story... 8-}]

-- Mac (sneak@lurk.com), March 10, 1999.

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My first experience with a Mac was in 1983. This was a prototype unit, and didn't do much more than bouncing Pepsi caps. When I tried to remove the floppy, there was no button to press to eject it (no pinhole either). After a lot of random clicking, I popped up a picture of a disk, and got a menu. One of the menu items was 'remove'. Since I wanted to remove the disk, jackpot, I clicked on that. Instead of removing the disk, this program 'removed' (erased) the driver! To get the disk back (minus the disk driver program, sigh) I was forced to disassemble the case, physically remove the disk drive, and press the latch on that drive.

Apple called the Mac 'user-friendly', a new term at the time. Right.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), March 10, 1999.

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Mac and Flint - Don't mind Robert. He's been sitting by the radiation for too long :))) Early Macs had a 6502 CPU, no? My first home "PC" was an ATARI 800 - same 6502. Played with the MAE assembler for years on that toy, 'til it died :( BTW still have a bunch of SS SD 5.25 disketts, anybody ever see a program that reads these on a real (IBM) PC? Found a nice 800 emulator, but never could get to my data. Never played with the newer 68xxx or power/PC machines though. We may actually make the 1,000 man-years here!!! I've got to go out for a while, but will get a new tally when I get back. Many thanks to all you geeks. <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), March 10, 1999.

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PS - Should we go for 2000? That would bring a new meaning to Y2K (MM) <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), March 10, 1999.

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C++, VB, NT, Unix, Java,.......does anyone remember BASIC? <> Passing the punch cards..

Mr. K - 20 years

-- Mr. Kennedy (wannabe@younger.age), March 10, 1999.

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FM - Since you're the one that inspired me to do this, I want to make sure you understand what I'm doing. I'm not trying to find 1,000 programmers, but 1,000 years of programming. <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), March 10, 1999.

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So if you find 2000 programmers, can't you get the list done faster than if you are looking for 500 years?

-- Robert A. Cook, P.E. (Kennesaw, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), March 10, 1999.

...

First many thanks to all you old geeks that answered my post! Haven't heard from a few of the other known regulars here yet. Hardliner must have his head stuck in a logic diagram :) I'm hoping we can use this information to help enlighten the DGI. If they see that so many of us with real-world experience are very concerned about the Y2K problem, maybe they will give it some serious thought. We still have time to help people prepare. Let's use this to our advantage. True, the technical issue is only one facet of the problem, but all this experience surely helps support the fact that the problem is indeed real.

Also makes some powerful troll ammunition :)

Gotta go for now, time for some real work. See ya later. <:)=

Original post

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), March 11, 1999

Answers Sysman; What a wonderful brain, knowledge and skills bank we have here. Your collation is very valuable. Keep asking and reporting. With thanks from your friend,

-- Watchful (seethesea@msn.com), March 11, 1999.

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Sorry Sysman, I was paying attention to other threads and missed that one.

34 years, but in fairness, you'd better drop off about 12 of those for time spent running my own business (not computer related), periods of active duty with USMC, management positions, etc.

I am quite sharp however in Hex, fairly sharp in BAL, competent in BASIC (and Visual Basic), 80x86 Assembler and Pascal, plus miscellaneous 5code instruction sets.

Also, my first enterprise was the design and construction (and subsequent sale) of custom industrial process control machinery for the construction materials industry.

-- Hardliner (searcher@internet.com), March 11, 1999.

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Nonsense: As an engineering consultant actually working on Y2K remediation, I have little time to poke around in the bowels of the delusionary. The fact that some old programming grunts think they corner the market on Y2K "knowledge" would be laughable, if it were not so dangerous. If you are a lurker, don't be swayed by the paranoid...

-- (y2k@*****.com), March 11, 1999.

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Score: GI 35 DGI 2 <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), March 11, 1999.

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"y2k@*****.com", Let me get this straight.

You're too busy actually trying to fix Y2K problems to "poke around", but your snap judgement of what "some old programming grunts think" is supposed to carry any weight with strangers?

Give me a break, Jughead! Anyone who is influenced by argument (NOT) such as yours deserves whatever they get.

You're nothing more than a name caller. How about some reasoned commentary, Mr. "engineering consultant"?

-- Hardliner (searcher@internet.com), March 11, 1999.

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"You're too busy actually trying to fix Y2K problems to "poke around", but your snap judgement of what "some old programming grunts think" is supposed to carry any weight with strangers? Give me a break, Jughead! Anyone who is influenced by argument (NOT) such as yours deserves whatever they get.

You're nothing more than a name caller. How about some reasoned commentary, Mr. "engineering consultant"? "

Perhaps he (or she) is too busy working on the problem, and does not have time to throw excrement with a bunch of has-beens or wannabees ?

-- Vinnie (mail@bomb.com), March 11, 1999.

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Vinnie, Your argument clearly demonstrates your ability to read and draw conclusions that take actual events into account.

-- Hardliner (searcher@internet.com), March 11, 1999.

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I'm neck deep in a Y2K conversion myself. Funny that y2k@*****.com and myself can come to such different conclusions. I've been researching the overall problem for about 15 months now. How about you, y2k@*****.com? <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), March 11, 1999.

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Hi Sysman, Been hacking around with code and computers since Sinclair released the ZX80. Still at it though now on an NT 4 Server Wintel box also running Linux. Mostly involved in using systems in education contexts and nearly always finished up cobbling together solutions for SW that doesn't do what people want.

Although from the outside it looks like I am an academic, (quals titles etc) most of my work is system support. In that role I get to see levels of dependence and inter-relationships that make Y2K very obvious.

So, self taught and still at it now for about 20 years.

-- Bob Barbour (r.barbour@waikato.ac.nz), March 11, 1999.

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OK, Sysman, put me down for 18. I started in 1981 with Basic and Fortran, some 68XXX assembler, C, then C++, plus some 3/4GL stuff like VB, Delphi and Foxpro. All of my programs that were date sensitive have been retired except one which I had to personally remediate (hey, how did I know a temporary solution was going to be used 6 years later) so I guess I paid the price personally for not thinking ahead.

-- Lurker (eye@spy.net), March 11, 1999.

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Put me down for 15. Started with BASIC, moved to Fortran and Assembler, to C, to C++, even messed around with Perl and Tcl/Tk. Have been into computer security for about 6 years now and currently do korn shell scripting and bug patches.

-- Jay (havocuz@mindspring.com), March 11, 1999.

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Sysman; For a guy who is "neck deep" in a Y2K conversion, you sure do have a LOT of time to post on this NG. I think I'd rather trust someone with a litle less time.

-- vinnie (mail@bomb.com), March 11, 1999.

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Some compiles take forever, so you do something while you wait. he also posts when i normaly do, at night. Chuck, whose eyes are now certified for driving and who goes back to work Friday.

-- Chuck, a night driver (reinzoo@en.com), March 11, 1999.

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Vinnie. Yup, I sure do spend a bunch of time here. Haven't found a better place on the net to get the latest news on Y2K. I'm a systems programmer and network administrator. My job is to support the programmers and customer service people that are doing the grunt work. When they are happy, and I have some free time I jump on the net (that T1 sure is nice!) When I get home, what I do is my business. Any other questions? <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), March 11, 1999.

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"Vinnie. Yup, I sure do spend a bunch of time here. Haven't found a better place on the net to get the latest news on Y2K. I'm a systems programmer and network administrator. My job is to support the programmers and customer service people that are doing the grunt work. When they are happy, and I have some free time I jump on the net (that T1 sure is nice!) When I get home, what I do is my business. Any other questions? <:)= " In other words, a low level IS/IT guy. Sheesh...

-- Vinnie (mail@bomb.com), March 11, 1999.

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Vinnie - Yup, real low level. Only a System-360/370/390 assemnbly language expert for 25+ years, Not my humble opinion. Coded part of IBM DOS/VSE operating system. Real-time programming 10+ years. Wrote PostScript driver for III VideoComp. Real low level stuff, right next to the metal. <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), March 11, 1999.

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PS - BTW vinnie, since this is an experience thread, what's yours? -- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), March 11, 1999.

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Sysman, chuckles. Can I throw my three days of demo software coding into the pot that got my start-up company a $25,000 contract with Dow Jones?

After that, I said "never again." I'm probably way more "experienced" than Vinnie.

Diane, GI without Assembler knowledge

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), March 11, 1999.

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Twenty years, if you count a TI-59 programmable calculator. Eighteen or so, otherwise, on PCs. BASIC, QuickBasic, Microsucks Professional BASIC, dBase, Foxbase, Foxpro, Clipper, C (not C++), Visual Basic, Access.

-- vbProg (vbProg@MicrosoftAndIntelSucks.com), March 12, 1999.

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Types of companies: Phone company, Bank, HMO, Real estate, Precious metals dealer, Computer manufacturer, Aerospace -- all contract (job shop) assignments. The HMO job illustrates the potential of Y2K problems. One of my assignments was to do a program to look at data received from associated HMOs and the State of California. Sort of an expect system to fix data where possible and to report on possibly faulty data to later be hand massaged. Batch mode, used before acutally loading the received data into the client's main patient and provider (doctor, etc.) tracking system. This was a hassle, just looking at data on tapes and disks. Real time, anyone?

-- vbProg (vbProg@MicrosoftandIntelSucks.com), March 12, 1999.

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), December 24, 1999.

Sysman, add another 15 for me. Pascal and C programmer; large PC application development and managing non-trivial hardware and software projects. Plan, code, debug, code, debug, ship, fix, code, debug. You know what I mean, I'm sure :-)

-- joe (joe@adeveloper.net), December 24, 1999.

30 years total, of which just under 22 had been professional - started out on TRS-80 model one, level one; TI-99; Atari 400 & 800; moved up to IBM 360/380; IBM System3, 34, and 36; a Burroughs machine (but damned if I can remember the model number :-); Gosh, come to think about it, even had a few months on a Cray while working for Uncle Sam. PC experience includes: Osborne Portable (talk about a gross misnomer, yikes, my shocks sagged everytime I put it in the car), and almost every version of the 68xxx and the x86. Large part of my work has been in hardware and software for peripheral systems and sub-systems - sensors, instrumentation, communications, T&ME (test and measurement equipment), etc. Wanna talk about seeing some doozy problems with interconnectedness ... LoL

I'm an EE who worked up through the ranks from an ET. Software development has played a large role in my career. Heck, even did a few years teaching CS and CT at local community college and trade school.

But I admit that Robert has a few up on me ... :-)

-- hiding in plain (sight@edge. of no-where), December 24, 1999.

Sysman,

Better add about 18 more years for me. Started out with dBase II on an Osborne. Now doing Oracle and SQL Server with VB COM objects. This is a second life for me though since I am 49 now.

-- ds (ds@deepsouth.com), December 24, 1999.

Sysman,

Add me in for 32 years.

Started with plug-boards, old 1401's 1440's and then on up. I have been a mainframe operator, analyst/programmer, and systems programmer. Mainly on DOS/VS and VM hardware. Done single boards, process control and many other odd apps. Moved into networks and client server as network administrator utilizing Novell and then NT. Currently am building NT servers for WEBs, E-Mail, Terminal Servers(thin client) and programming PC to PLC interfaces.

And you bet a lot of us tried to impress our employers with the illogic of using two digit years. When your supervisor tells you that it is DEPARTMENT POLICY to use two instead of four, you use it. And folks, we were using windowing a long time ago to solve what should never have been a problem. My experiences only, ;your milage may vary.

Interconnected systems can be a real Achilles heel.

My prayers are with you all going into the unknown....

Boldly going where no man has gone before --- say! that's catchy....

wally

-- wally wallman (wally_yllaw@hotmail.com), December 24, 1999.

Doug, where did you go?

-- gary elliott (gelliott@real.on.ca), December 25, 1999.

y2k pro is a professional.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), December 25, 1999.

Yea, where is Doug? You know, the guy that said:

"There are no IT professionals actively contributing to this forum. TimeBomb 2000 is a joke only good for a few laughs. Most are techno- dweebs that do not understand anything about the real problem. It's fun to screw with them buy using different names and reverse psychology.

Doug"

Where is this joke that wants to compare notes? Where is the joke that called me a "techno-dweeb" ???

You know, Doug, if you want to compare notes, start with this note. This is from MVI, a well respected friend to this forum, who is stuck in DC trying to bail your ass out of Y2K. Someone that has been working with computers for 26 years. Someone that commented on our experience here, after we knew that we had ??? man-years of programming:

"Heck Sysman, they are all date sensitive starting with password assignment/expiration and ending with backups. Before you get to the application you have to deal with BIOS, RTC, console firmware, operating system etc. etc the list goes on. Thats one of the reasons why fix on failure is such a joke. If I back up on 12/31/1999 and blow up on monday 01/03/1999 or later what are the assurances that I can restore across the millenium boundary if my operating system software/firmware is non-compliant.

MoVe Immediate

-- MVI (MVI@yepimhere.com), March 12, 1999."

You know Doug, you're lucky that it's Christmas, otherwise I would try to sneak this past the censors...

<:O=3

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), December 25, 1999.

Oh, and PS, MVI,

I know that you still lurk here. I hope that I have your permission to quote you on this forum. If you have a problem with this, and I don't expect that you will, please E-mail me. Better yet, post it here...

And MVI, just do me one little favor...

GET THE HELL OUT OF DC, NOW! <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), December 25, 1999.

Sysman,

Add another almost 18 years programming from me.

-TECH32-

-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), December 25, 1999.

I have more than 30 years of mainframe and now 3 Y2k remediation projects under my belt. Recently I was trying to convince my brother for the 5th time to make some preparation for the rollover - water, food, etc. He tried to soothe me by saying "Jean, you have to have some faith that we have control of our technology. The people out there know what they are doing." I wanted to point out that it was me and the people like me that he was talking about. We have the understanding and the control of the technology. We know where it is and where it isn't. When I started in data processing, we did the whole job, from start to finish. We knew the big picture. We knew how everything was connected to everything else.... and although we have been working as hard and as fast as we can to fix this thing - God help us all Thank you all for being here - for being a network of support - both mental and emotional - as we cross our fingers and hold our breath...

Good Luck to all

Jean

-- Jean (jmacmanu@bellsouth.net), December 25, 1999.

I've accumulated approximately 15 years of IT experience along the line.

Regards, Simon

-- Simon Richards (simon@wair.com.au), December 25, 1999.