Y2K: A tale of two fora... and my rollover awards.

greenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread

"Debunking Y2K"

http://www.stand77.com/wwwboard/board.html

Throughout the Y2K discussion, I've read TB 2000 and "Debunking Y2K" on a fairly regular basis. During the past several months, I posted far more often on this forum. Frankly, it's much more active and the responses... well let's just say the responses are more "diverse."

The Y2K debate has been acrimonious... particularly between these two relatively small fora. The unfortunate casualty of this open conflict has been calm, rational discourse. Reflecting on the past year, I posted a short essay on "Debunking..."

http://www.stand77.com/wwwboard/messages/7463.html

As I received responses... I began mulling on the longstanding feud. On both fora, Y2K has become lost among titantic ego clashes, gratuitious personal attacks and paranoia. Lest you think I'm taking only the pessimists to task... this particular street runs both ways.

If you read down on my thread at "Debunking," you'll see me bumping heads with Charles Reuben (aka CPR). You can find the same type of exchange with Steve Heller on this forum. [Personally, I think they might be identical twins separated at birth. For the humorless Reuben and Heller... this is a joke.]

At this point, the usual suspects care more about being "right" than helping anyone understand Y2K... or even exercising a modest amount of civility. Lost in this battle of Bantee roosters... many decent people who simply wanted to understand how Y2K might impact them personally.

I'm not no saint... and have traded punches on this forum (and Debunking.) Despite my personal flaws, I have tried to discuss Y2K, including civil answers to questions on preparation, predictions, and even a bit of economics. Amidst my modest contributions, I've tried to be fair... considering unverified data equally, avoiding the Y2K rumor mill, etc. My message with ten days remaining... there are people on both fora who've made this noble effort, some far better than I.

In recognition of their unfailing efforts, I think we need a new award. (The "Flying Pig" lacks an aesthetic appeal.) On this forum, after the rollover, I'll announce the Y2K Civility Awards or Civvies. These awards will go to folks who have made meaningful contributions to the Y2K discussion... and who been gracious, thoughtful and appropriately dressed during the past year. I'll take nominations during this thread or via email. By the way, since the two forum have been so militant (and will probably dissolve next year), I think "Civvies" is a nice entendre.

-- Ken Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), December 20, 1999

Answers

I nominate King of Spain.

-- (yeah@i.do), December 20, 1999.

Homer Beanfang and Dieter

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), December 20, 1999.

If you read down on my thread at "Debunking," you'll see me bumping heads with Charles Reuben (aka CPR). You can find the same type of exchange with Steve Heller on this forum. [Personally, I think they might be identical twins separated at birth. For the humorless Reuben and Heller... this is a joke.]

Ha ha, very funny. Now let's talk about you. I think you and the Unabomber are twins separated at birth. After all, you have the same attitude towards the rest of us "inferior" types. [ha, ha, just kidding].

-- Steve Heller (stheller@koyote.com), December 20, 1999.


I nominate everyone, because everyone contributed. But if it has to be one person, I would say Ed Yourdon, he's the one who started it.

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), December 20, 1999.

This may not fit into your framework, but I'd like to give a nod to Rob Michaels for his humanitarian efforts here. He has helped me to catch my breath on more than one occasion.

-- flora (***@__._), December 20, 1999.


I nominate the tireless sysops!

-- (how@about.them), December 20, 1999.

ED YOURDON, who had the intelligence and courage to start this Forum, and who has always responded with generosity, graciousness and common-sense practical explanations, even when being rudely flamed for no reason! And because he has a great sense of humor :-)

beep beep!

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), December 20, 1999.


And Dr. Paula Gordon too. She has been so steadfast and polite it is breathtaking. She seems to be a saint! To be able to maintain such kindness and courage after going nose-to-nose with Koffinsky must merit a special award in heaven.
*making note to send her a pitchfork for Christmas ... *

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), December 20, 1999.

"appropriately dressed?" !!!

Uh-oh, you probably know a lot of us are in our PJs and bunny slippers as we type, even in the middle of the day. And we won't discuss whether I've brushed my hair yet. I looked so gorgeous yesterday in my black velvet that I'm allowed to look scruffy today, really I am.

I'm still pondering my post-rollover fashion dilemma before I go shopping. Should I go buy some camo outfits, and have people shoot me for being mistaken for a deer rather than a surviving Doomerette? Or should I get hazard orange and let them shoot me for being a Doomerette right off the bat?

-- Firemouse (firemouse@fcmail.com), December 20, 1999.


firemouse,

Whatever you do, just don't forget those holiday earrings!

-- not really the chowbabe (***@__._), December 20, 1999.



I nominate LadyLackingLogic

just kidding

Real award should go to whoever pays for the website.

-- Richard Greene (Rgreene2@ford.com), December 20, 1999.


Richard,

Noone pays for it as it comes gratis from MIT. Well, OBVIOUSLY SOMEONE pays but not anyone involved in the forum.

Chuck

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), December 20, 1999.


Mr. Decker:

If one person should be the awardee, it would be Ed Yourdon. Back in March (1999) when I first heard what Y2K is -- (I'm technologically challenged) one of the first books I read was 'Time Bomb 2000". It is written so that the average person can understand it.

Also, Ed has said that no one can know until the event what the result will be, so that except for some 'takes' that were wrong (or else contained in-house or hidden) what has he said that is incorrect? I know there is a whole forum of information here that makes it difficult to re-hash.

You have access to a lot of information, and present it with intelligence and good humor, so I would like to ask your opinion about this: Have the remediations that have been made, and the antiquated systems that have been 'retired' improved the overall operational capability of our computer-controlled age? I know a certain number of errors have been introduced with remediation, but overall has there been an improvement? If so, could you not agree that the alarmists and Paul and Paula Reveres have given us a gift, albeit a messy one? And this would be even though there are NO untoward results of the date change. In other words, are we better or worse off (in your opinion) than if no one had known and nothing had been done? I think the figures are that an estimated 7% of errors have been introduced. Does that mean that 93% have been corrected?

Ity won't be long before we know what the outcome will be, and I want to thank everyone, including the 'flamers' for what I have learned. Part of what I have learned is that I miss the gentility of a civil response!

Sincerely,

Connie Iversen

-- Connie Iversen (hive@gte.net), December 20, 1999.


Ed Yourdon! (And you're pretty civil yourself, Mr. Decker.)

-- helen (sstaten@fullnet.net), December 20, 1999.

I go to debonkers hoping to find something that is genuinely encouraging. Occasionly I do, but usually I find it a smug, boring and nasty place. In general, I don't think he posters are as witty, stimulating, compassionate or passionate as those on TB2000. IMHO, it is graphically desolate, with its gray pages and its hard-to-follow thread postings. I feel sorry for it--it is so derivative; its entire reason-to-be is the TB20000 forum. In no way do I agree with everything here but I'd much rather hang-out here.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), December 20, 1999.


My local used-car salesman is a very civil chap. A voice of sweet reason, always gracious, thoughtful and very stylishly dressed. It's why I've bought two used cars off him in recent months. The first lasted two months, the second hasn't budged an inch since the temperature dropped below 5 centrigrade. But he's a nice bloke and I'm sure he's sincere in his offer to me to trade it in again, for something unquestionably reliable and only a tad more wedge required.

-- flkj (flkj@flkj.com), December 20, 1999.

Don't forget Big Dog...and...well, just about everyone contributes mightily from time to time...

-- Mad Monk (madmonk@hawaiian.net), December 20, 1999.

Decker,

Why don't you call your awards the Onions and Ochids of Y2K.

BTW nice guys finish last.

-- William Burrows (shotgun@artist.00), December 20, 1999.


From: Y2K, ` la Carte by Dancr (pic), near Monterey, California

Well, Ed, of course! But, don't forget Stan, the man, or Mr. Cook.

-- Dancr (addy.available@my.webpage), December 20, 1999.


I nominate Hoffmeister. I disagree completely with practically everything that he ever has said, but acknowledge that he has said it in a courteous and civil manner.

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), December 20, 1999.

Er...Mr.Decker?

I know my question is not the kind you usually want to answer, but I'd love to know your opinion.

And I know it's OT, but thought I could sneak it in.

I bet I broke a rule.

Are we better or worse off, with all of the information we've received and is the computer world better or worse off with the remediation done?

Actually, on that other thread about CPR and the lawsuit, I discovered that you are much better prepared than the average Y2K aware person. That surprised me.

-- Connie Iversen (hive@gte.net), December 21, 1999.


Don't forget Big Dog...

Oh no, of course we should not forget Big Dog's idea of civility...

"The embedded problem has NOT been overhyped." You can now return home to the DerBunkie board, Robin, where they live for your illogic.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), December 20, 1999.

ROTFLMAO

-- (LOL@LOL.LOL), December 21, 1999.


Connie,

You asked, "Have the remediations that have been made, and the antiquated systems that have been 'retired' improved the overall operational capability of our computer-controlled age?"

Gosh, I hope so! Moving away from the "global" picture, I've been involved in several Y2K-related projects. Like managers all over, I've used "Y2K" to fund badly needed upgrades to hardware and software systems including real Y2K fixes. (chuckle) We've done the three "R's" of Y2K: remediation, replacement and retirement. While this process has not been easy (or error free), it's been successful... and I think we improved system performance and reliability.

The potentinal error I see in your logic is simple. Do we owe the current level of Y2K awareness to the "alarmists?" More specifically, have the alarmists raised awareness in the IT community? People like Ed Yourdon created public awareness... but the IT community was already well aware of Y2K issues. The degree of public perception probably help IT departments acquire the necessary (and perhaps padded) budgets. After all, "everyone" knew we needed to fix Y2K problems, even managers. (chuckle)

As to my level of preparation, I'm a wild-eyed optimist compared to some on this forum. My "preparations" are mostly my frugal lifestyle and a somewhat unusual set of life experiences. In fact, I've been roasted on this forum for NOT being more of a survivalist... and for deconstructing the logic behind some common "survivalist" assumptions.

I think the real heroes of Y2K are those that helped fix the problem... and those will will continue making things work after rollover.

-- Ken Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), December 21, 1999.


Hey, no one can ever accuse me of civility .... senility, maybe, but not civility (yes, this really is me with my inimitable sense of humor).

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), December 21, 1999.

Thank you for answering my question, Ken. (May I call you 'Ken'?)

I'm 66 and a little old-fashioned.

Also, Mr. Burrows:

One nice guy who finished first was Eric Liddell of 'Chariots of Fire' fame. And even he thought he wouldn't be able to compete, because he refused to run on the Lord's Day. (True story.)

Also, Ken, on your CPR-lawsuit thread, the elderly lady who was "OK" with whatever turned out is to be admired and emulated. Even Jesus said: "May this cup pass from me; never-the-less, not what I will, but Thy will be done." I know that seems preachy, and probably is, but there is such a wealth of information on how to live in the Scriptures that I can't help but want to pass it on. Sorry if I've offended anyone!

-- Connie Iversen (hive@gte.net), December 21, 1999.


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