A couple of days ago I went to Sams for more supplies - as they had sold out of 55 gallon drums brain of Britain here bought four 30 gallon plastic trash bins at $20 a pop... now Mara Wayne tells me that they may have been treated with pesticide! I know some of the pollies would like to see me pestified but can anyone confirm if this is true or not and if true can the bloody things be de-pesticided with bleach or something... thanks in advance. [They are Sam's bins at $19.99 with lid and are a sort of grey colour...]

Cheers!

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), December 20, 1999

Answers

This has been covered here SOMEWHERE. OH LINKMEISTER. Where ARE you??

CHuck

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), December 20, 1999.

Hey Andy, if you can return them, for just a few more bucks you can get one of these that will hold 200 gallons. Or maybe buy a used waterbed mattress.

I thought you Brits only drank ale, not water!

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), December 20, 1999.

Historically, yes! In Northern European nations, small (i.e. weak) beer was drunk instead of water by all those that could afford it, while in Southern Europe, watered wine was the norm. They didn't know about bacteria, but they did know that untreated water was bad for you.

c.f. the anti-bacterial action of silver, leading to the wishing well tradition, and the Roman habit of putting a silver coin into their water vessels as a tribute to Aqua Sulis. Impious legionnaries who tipped the coin out were often struck down with ill health in punishment...

-- Servant (public_service@yahoo.com), December 20, 1999.

Hey Andy,

I located a CocaCola bottler in my area and purchased 55 gallon drums that hold syrup for soda production. There white in color and have threaded fittings in the top. They only cost $ 5.00 bucks a pop

Goog Luck

-- andy (andrew@anai.com), December 20, 1999.

If the garbase cans had been treated with any kind of pesticide, there would probably have to be a notice of some kind attached.

Don't use a waterbed mattress to store water you intend to use for consumption. These are made of poly-vinyl cloride. PVC will leach out vinyl cloride gas into the water, and that is rather nasty stuff; quite toxic and a potent carcinogen. Think "new car smell" and you know what vinyl cloride gas smells like. Would you like to drink that?

Containers for water should be PETE (the stuff that plastic soda bottles are made of) or HDPE (the stuff that plactic milk cartons are made of).

I bought four 30 gallon Rubbermaid totes made of HDPE, with a tight fitting lid. $8.99 each at a local Home Depot. A good scrubbing before hand to remove any residual dust and dirt from manufacturing, water treated with bleach after being filled (two teaspoons per ten gallons), and the water will be filtered through a level 3 filter before use.

This isn't going to be our main source, just a fallback. We will use, in order: 1. filtered tap water (enough filters for 1 year), 2. Camping style water carriers with pre-filtered water (enough for one week for the "extended family" we'll have if things get that bad), 3. The above mentioned totes (enough for one month), 4. The contents of the water heater (after being filtered, enough for another week), 5. Snow melt/rain water runoff (indefinate). If things get to 4 or 5, there won't be too many people left living in this area.

-- Jerry Heidtke (jheidtke@email.com), December 20, 1999.

Thanks everyone - Hawk - the bag looks like the way to go but I'm too late for mail order now. interesting about the silver - I filter my tap water through a Brita jug and keep two silver dollars in the jug a la Roma Legion principle... if it worked for them, well, they did ok for a while(!)...

The beer idea has set me thinking... I could kill two birds with one stone bybrewing up a coupla batches of beer using a home brew kit - I could be slaughtered during the worst of the riots... yes, that ounds like a plan :o)

I may ring up the manufacturer - I'll check the label - thanks everyone...

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), December 20, 1999.

Trash cans treated with pesticide or made from materials which might leak toxic compounds into the water are not so labeled because they are not intended as drinking water receptacles. I'm using two garbage cans to store rainwater for my ornamentals only, with no danger of runoff into the water table or vegetable garden.

Andy, Wal-Mart has water containers in various sizes in the camping department. I also obtained one 55-gal and six 5-gall containers from my local bottling company and they didn't charge me anything. If you have no nearby bottling company, you might also try a juice or preserves manufacturer for resealable containers.

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), December 20, 1999.

Cheers Old Git - I don't have a car at the mo so it will be fun and games returning 4 trash bins on my bike!!!

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), December 20, 1999.

another alternative for those last minute preppers for water--you can always buy the trash cans, clean them, then get the plastic HDPE liners. I got mine from US PLastics for $4.

-- tt (cuddluppy@nowhere.com), December 20, 1999.

Andy- If memory serves, the insecticide issue was brought up about using plastic trash bags as liners for the trash bins. These bags were reported as being dusted with a pesticide. I didn't check it out myself. I find it difficult to fathom the cans themself as being impregnated with pesticide which would have to survive outdoor weather, constant abrasive action of fill/empty cycle the bins would go through during normal use, and exposure to spilled cleaning agents of all types over an extended period. Just thinking it through Andy, but this is not a place for guessing. Are you in a position to take a cab, or have barrels delivered via local carrier?

Jerry, sorry bud, but you've been listening to the wrong experts. I install water systems all the time, and MANY of them are ""PVC"" pipe. So this would be completely contrary to your post. Also, the forum has made a case against milk jugs as longer term storage containers because of the grade of plastics used. I am in this camp also.

Respectfully

Michael

-- Michael (mikeymac@uswest.net), December 20, 1999.

Andy, me lad--shirley you've saved all those little bottle of Watney's Red Ale?

-- Rider (Wake@Dawn's.Smile), December 20, 1999.

Michael,

So are you trying to say that a PVC product like a water bed mattress would be OK to store drinking water in?

The PVC in pipe is a different formulation than that used in common products like water bed mattresses. In fact, PVC pipe manufactured before 1976 has a serious problem with vinyl cloride leaching into water. In 1975 the mathods and materials used in PVC pipe manufacturing were changed specifically to limit VC contamination. The NSF now has very specific, strict standards for any PVC pipe that will be used in a potable water system.

Anything made of PVC, other than pipe manufactured to those specific standards, is likely to leach significant quantities of vinyl cloride into water.

Even so, the use of PVC in potable water systems is controversial, and has been banned in some localities.

And, I didn't say that used milk cartons are suitable for long-term water storage. I suggested that containers made of HDPE be used for long-term water storage. This is the material that almost all small water barrels and the like are made of.

-- Jerry Heidtke (jheidtke@email.com), December 20, 1999.

According to this old thread:

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001TPZ

LINK

Rubbermaid roughneck bin are ok: ------ EXERPT FOLLOWS ------------

IMHO, I'm not entirely convinced that liners are needed. I guess it depends on how long you are planning on storing the water.

Early this summer I wrote to Rubbermaid (via their web page) to find out if there was anything different between the plastics they use for their "food storage containers" and what is used for their "roughneck trash cans". Their response letter basically said that their "roughneck" refuse containers "were designed for the typical residential storage, misc. bulky items, and other non-food products." They also said the polymers they're made of "comply with food additive regulation 177.1520 for olefin polymers". At the time, I wasn't sure just what exactly this meant, but I was betting that if it *complies* with a food additive regulation, this is a good thing. After some tough digging, I found the following at a gov't web page...

******************** From the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) TITLE 21--FOOD AND DRUGS CHAPTER I--FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES (CONTINUED) PART 177--INDIRECT FOOD ADDITIVES: POLYMERS--Table of Contents Subpart B--Substances for Use as Basic Components of Single and Repeated Use Food Contact Surfaces Sec. 177.1520 Olefin polymers. The olefin polymers listed in paragraph (a) of this section may be safely used as articles or components of articles intended for use in contact with food, subject to the provisions of this section. (a) For the purpose of this section, olefin polymers are basic polymers manufactured as described in this paragraph, so as to meet the specifications prescribed in paragraph (c) of this section, when tested by the methods described in paragraph (d) of this section. ********************

Rubbermaid went on to say that since the containers weren't designed for food storage they have never been submitted for NSF or USDA sanction, but they were aware of them being used this way without problems. In a nutshell, my guess is they are coming out of the same plant. I figured if they work for food, why not water?

My plans are to squirrel away some "store bought" bottled water, some home-grown 2 liter "soda pop" bottle water, and at least a couple of 45 gal Rubbermaid trash cans to store "other water" such as for washing, etc.

One final note. I figured I'd better try this idea out before I relied on it. So I bought two of the square Rubbermaid "roughneck" containers. They are the 45 gal. ones with two wheels, model #1345. I chose them because I figured the square design would take less room to store. One thing I didn't count on... once filled with water, they were very unstable. I attribute this to the shape (narrow bottom) and the wheels. I filled them with city water (with clorox added at 1/2 the recommended "disinfection" rate) and set them out on the deck this summer as a test - figuring the outdoor heat (90+ degrees on most days) would speed up any mold problems, etc. After about 1 week, one of them tipped over. Two weeks later, the second one tipped over. While filled, they also showed signs of "stress", i.e. the sides had some strange bulges that weren't evident before filling.

My recommendation to anyone thinking about this is to get the round cans instead of the square ones. I have filled round ones before with none of the "tippage" problems - the force of the water seems to be more evenly distributed in the round cans. Also, although the water from the 3 week test still smelled slightly of chlorine (since I was starting with clean tap water, I only used half of the recommended "disinfection" amount), I was surprised at the number of bugs, including moths and millers, that had made their way into the can, even with the lid on. My lids will be taped/sealed to keep the critters out.

I think the plastic cans, at least the "round" shaped Rubbermaid brand, could probably be used safely, at least for your "other water" needs. *Beware* that some brands are made of recycled plastics - you never know what you're getting, or what that plastic had originally been used for (insecticide containers? oil or petroleum products?). For me, Rubbermaid is the only one I would trust since that is the one I have the letter for.

-- Interested Spectator (is@the_ring.side), December 20, 1999.

Andy;

Don't know answer to your exact question.

K-Marts in midwest USA, and sporting goods dealers, are selling 5- gallon "jerrycans" of food grade plastic specifically for drinking water. Do they have K-Marts in England?

Save your clear plastic fruit juice and soda pop bottles. More convenient to lug than the big 55-gallon containers discussed above.

-- Not Whistlin' Dixie (not_whistlin_dixie@yahoo.com), December 20, 1999.