He was born to a virgin by immaculate conception through the intervention of a holy spirit. This filled an ancient prophecy. When he was born the ruling tyrant wanted to kill him. His parents had to flee to safety. All male children under the age of 2 were slain by the ruler as he sought to kill the child. Angels and shepards were at his birth and he was givin gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh. He was worshipped as the saviour of men and led a moral and humble life. He was put to death on the cfoss between two thieves. He descended to hell and rose from the dead to ascend back to heaven.

Sounds exactly like Jesus doesen't it? But its not. That is how they described the Eastern saviour god known as Virishna 1,200 years before Jesus is claimed to have been born. If you want a saviour god who died so our sins could be forgiven, take your pick from the ancient world because there are a stream of them, all originating with the Aryan race that came out of the Near East and the Caucasus Mountains. Here are some of the 'Son Of God' heroes who play the the lead role in stories which mirror those attributed to jesus and almost all were worshipped long before Jesus was even heard of.

Khrishna of Hindostan; Buddha Sakia of India; Salivahana of Bermuda; Osiris and Horus of Egypt; Odin of Scandinavia; Crite of Chaldea; Zoroaster of Persia; Baal and Taut of Phoencia; Indra of Tibet; Bali of Afghanistan; Jao of Nepal; Wittoba of Bilingonese; Tammuz of Syria and Babylon; Attis of Phrygia; Xamolxis of Thrace; Alcides of Thebes; Divine Teacher of Plato; Adonis, son of virgin Io, of Greece; Mohammed or Mahomet, of Arabia; Quirinus of Rome; Mirthra or Mithras; Beddru of Japan and 14 others.

All but a few of those 'sons of God' or 'prophets', and the religions founded in their names, come from the very lands occupied or influenced by peoples emerging from the Near East and the Caucasus. These are sons of God who died so our sins could be forgiven, born of a virgin mother, and their birthdays were on ...December 25th! Mithra was crucified, but raised from the dead on March 25th-Easter! Mithran initiations took place in caves adorned with the signs of Capricorn and Cancer, symbolic of the winter and summer solstices, the high and low points of the sun. Mithra was oftin portrayed as a winged lion, a symbol for the Sun still used by the secret societies today.

To Fear Y2K is exactly what they want. Humans are learning what happens when they give their power away and this Cabal group, that brought us Y2K, are about to learn the consequences of abusing power. It is a game in the end, a game called evolution, learning to master our mind and emotions.

Want to know more? Read "The Biggest Secret" by David Icke

As Always

May Gods Will be done in my life,

-- flierdude (more@secrets.coming), December 19, 1999

Answers

Wierd...just wierd!

-- Z (Z@Z.Z), December 19, 1999.

Thanks flierdude, I've read all his books - essential reading...

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), December 19, 1999.

Flierdude,

Bully, We are a gullible group if anything.

I was raised a southern Baptist and had it shoved down my throat. I was fortunate and escaped. Religeous guilt is a formidable thing to escape, only a few are sucessfull.

Believe it or not, I still know the difference between right and wrong.

I believe Sunday school is a good thing for childern, it teaches them much wisdom, but children grow up sooner or later.

No one wishes there was a god more than I. But when I see humans claiming to be devine, meanwhile slaughtering and abusing those that they should be defending and are defenseless(animals), well you know the rest. Oh, I forgot, God gave then to us to do with as we please.

Yeah, we are surely devine. Great post.

You'll be SORRY!!!!

Cheers

-- Infidel (Barbarians@thegate.net), December 19, 1999.

Infidel,

I have no fear of them. I resolved that before I posted. I have only unconditional love for them. Well, I guess I put out a few fearful vibes when I read your "You'll be sorry" comment.

May Gods Will Be done in my life

-- flierdude (more@to.come), December 19, 1999.

Flierdude,

Your unconditional love is commendable. Unfortunately, I have unconditional contempt for man and God. There is no excuse. NONE!!!

-- Infidel (Barbarians@thegate.net), December 19, 1999.

Interesting...Anyone read Zecharia Sitchin's works?...I've always wondered (but never bothered to look up)...(1) What is Frankincense and Myrrh (2) What is/was its significance....But,then again, I wonder about a lot of things. Sometimes I sit and think and other times I just sit. Andy, I do know they're not traded on the CBOE...(just Kidding!)

-- Always Learning (Justwondering@Dot.com), December 19, 1999.

Isn't Icke the one that thinks a lot of people in power are really reptiles from another planet? There is so much that we don't know and we will never know just how clueless we are.

-- Carol (glear@usa.net), December 19, 1999.

Carol,

Didn't get that last post, please explain.

Cheers

-- Infidel (Barbarians@thegate.net), December 19, 1999.

Ever heard the saying: The biggest obstacle to a religeous experience is religeon?

Cheers

-- Infidel (Barbarians@thegate.net), December 19, 1999.

I've read Sitchin and Icke....but then I prefer to do my own investigations. Just because it is published, doesn't make it true. Sitchin does a more credible job of his research.

If you have come to believe there is a God (and I have), then you will not be dissuaded. The antithesis is true as well. Icke has no credentials at all....he spouts "incredible" things...yes, he also thinks Clinton, Bush, and esp. the Royal family of England are all reptiles from another dimension sent here to destroy humanity and bring us under their evil spell...yeah right...but you don't believe in God...I ask you which is the more unbelievable? Well you just go ahead and believe what you want...this is a free country and I won't try to dissuade you..can't be done anyway...

But I will say that I feel that you are a deluded lot and should do your own research...say, I'll write a book about amphibians taking over the ancient world...cite tons of research (which you won't check) and then become a cult classic...yup, I'll be FAMOUS....! Then you can use ME as your new prophet of No God....yeah, right...

There is a God. His only begotten son was Jesus. I believe in them both.

-- Ynott (Ynott@incorruptible.com), December 19, 1999.

Isn't Icke the one that thinks a lot of people in power are really reptiles from another planet?

Yup, that's the guy.

-- (sssssss@snakesss.sss), December 19, 1999.

Christianity is the Microsucks of religion. Never invented nothing new. Just cobbled together other stuff and a buncha crap and marketed the hell out of it.

-- A (A@AisA.com), December 19, 1999.

I never understood what it meant by "Jesus died for our sins". Also, aren't we ALL sons and daughters of GOD?

-- Julie (DesertJewel@Hotmail.com), December 19, 1999.

Andy, I do know they're not traded on the CBOE...(just Kidding!)

-- Always Learning (Justwondering@Dot.com), December 19, 1999.

That right, they're traded at NYMEX in new yawk, yee hah ha ha !

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), December 19, 1999.

It seems that sharing Jesus is a lot like sharring about Y2K. You will 'hear' if you are prepared to and if not, you will ridicule. Thing is, it's like the christian was as well at the end of the line...those who are prepared are safe - those who did not prepare won't have to worry about keeping warm during the cold months....there is a place prepared for you already as well. Like y2k, you have the time and right to choose. Choose wisely. Eternity is a very long time!

-- Prepared (ready@any.moment), December 19, 1999.

I know this board is not for this purpose but I can't let such a big ding hit with no response from the "Other side".

The mechanics of believing in Christ are sort of like the mechanics for Y2K -- if you believe and you are wrong, what have you lost? But if you don't believe, and you are wrong, you may not like the outcomes. And then you are stuck with them (according to God/Jesus) forever. It is your choice.

I wasn't always a believer. But since I have become a believer God (the God of the Old and New Testament) has shown HIMSELF to me in amazing ways. He is so beautiful and wonderful and I can honestly say I love him more all the time. Unfortunately, his followers are human (and in a long process of change) and we often screw up and set a bad example so people get the wrong impression of God. Religion is not what He's after. Relationship is what He is after. A relationship with YOU. He gave us a free will because He WANTS US to choose fellowship with him. And if you decide for yourself to have NO relationship with him in this life, then you can also have NO relationship with him after this life. Its up to you.

Truly--my faith was sealed totally when I began to understand the bible and what an amazing book it is from a historical, prophetical, scientific, and yes, spiritual perspective. It is not mythology. It is alive. Just because other religions have common themes does not mean Christianity copied them. Some came before, some came after. Remember there is a spiritual dimension you can't see if you aren't spiritual--and the enemy is very clever. He was the number one cherub and had access to God. He knows what is happening and can imitate God's activities (many of them). He can also send his troops to actually pose as Gods too. Did you ever notice how so many of these "false gods" demand pretty bizarre stuff or take pretty bizarre forms? That should make you think. The real God sent a person to fulfill his plan--not a rat, monkey, cow, elephant, multi-armed God. Someone just like you and me so he could understand us and serve as our replacement.

I studied all the world religions and Christianity may offend you because you don't want to believe its major premises but there is NO OTHER WORLD RELIGION THAT EVEN COMES CLOSE TO ITS FOUNDATIONAL PRINCIPLES. Christianity is the only religion that says you don't have to work to attain salvation. It is a gift. You just have to believe and for whatever reason that is very difficult for humans to do--they find it so hard to believe God would give us something for free. I guess we just want to work for it.

Anyway, you can read all the other books (I did) but make sure you include the bible in those readings. Several great men who originally sought to disprove the bible and its claims were converted in the course of their task.

Sorry to go on but it makes me sad when folks misunderstand who God really is.

-- tt (cuddluppy@nowhere.com), December 19, 1999.

The mechanics of believing in Christ are sort of like the mechanics for Y2K -- if you believe and you are wrong, what have you lost?

Oh, that's an easy one: your ability to think for yourself without having to pass all your thoughts through a filter to prevent them from overturning your "faith". Once you have agreed to put one area of thought "off-limits" to free inquiry, you have corrupted your intellectual integrity. From that point forward, you are at the mercy of your feelings whenever clear thinking might show you how foolish your "faith" is.

-- Steve Heller (stheller@koyote.com), December 19, 1999.

Anyone wishing an honest and *polite* debate on the *evidence* for traditional Christianity may e-mail me. I will take all comers as long as they are *polite*. Because family members read the mail coming to that address, any vile or hateful messages will be forwarded to your ISP.

Jeff

-- Jeffrey G. Bane (thebanezoo@apex2000.net), December 19, 1999.

OK,

Frankincense and Myrrh:

Myrrh: a fragrant oil used for embalming in ancient times. VERY scarce and rare, usu the stuff of Kings. (Also an antibiotic IIRC)

Frankincense: Burned as incense. A specific flavor usually reserved for Kings as it also was rare and scarce.

Chuck

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), December 19, 1999.

Normally I would not have posted on a religious thread, but this one seemed important to answer.

I have personally had out-of-body experiences since my teen-age years. So for all practical purposes, we are talking 40 years now. These experiences have left no doubt of the existence of God. Once a person has these types of experiences, they no longer doubt that our spiritual nature - and that life and our lives in particular extend beyond death.

IMHO, religions attempted to embrace this reality as best they could - and most were pure - though incomplete - in their beginnings. Their founders tried to relate to others their understanding and experience of the Godhead. Those people receiving the information and then perpetuating it, did not really understand it in the same way that the person who experienced it did. So in most instances, the religions evolved into a teaching that was very different from what was originally conveyed.

Nevertheless, the seed truths remain. And those seed truths may provide some comfort during the coming times.

This forum has meant a lot to me. I have read daily and participated occasionally for the past 18 months. It has been an emotional roller coaster ride and I feel like I have come to know many good people here. I wish you all well. I hope that you will enjoy this Christmas season - and that we will all enter the new millenium prepared. I pray that you will all be safe and that we will be able to look back at the coming times and say "well done".

Good Luck & Godspeed!

-- Jean (jmacmanu@bellsouth.net), December 19, 1999.

More for the polly psychology dudes to weed through and study.

Interesting place this forum is.

-- the Virginian (1@1.com), December 19, 1999.

To Whom It may Concern,

I am a strong believer in God. On June 6, 1997 I too had a spiritual experience. For the previous 10 years, although I had a good heart, I would do what ever necessary to get whatever I thought I needed and in any way necessary, as long is I did not hurt anyone. GOD knew I had A good heart but many many defects of character. On June 6, 1997 I lived in a Mansion that could easily cost $1,500,000.00 to replace today in Indiana. This house had a mahogany dining room that was 36X24 with a fireplace. The house had 6 fireplaces and over 7000 square feet on three floors. The front porch was 770 square feet under roof. I had another farm that set empty, that I did not know why I bought , unless it was just false pride. I owned a 1994 Dodge Viper with 200 miles that I had never titled, 1997 Ford Explorer Limited and a 1997 Dodge 4X4 all paid for in cash. My income was about $200,000.00 a year from a small business that I started with no money. I was miserable and hoping for death. I believe that God touched my life that day for a reason.

Today, I live debt free on the Farm that is totally self-sufficiant with a 2000 4X4 dodge and a 1999 Mercury Couger. I sold the big house and the Viper to divorce myself from the fase pride character defect that I had had my entire life.

I know that God has A plan for me and I am seeking that. My ultimate goal in life today is for true humility. I seek that everyday and try very hard to do Gods Will. I believe God brought this book to me for a reason. I will admit that I don't know what that reason is yet. Before posting the original post I thought very hard on whether or not this post was my will or Gods Will. I work very hard to disprove this book. It may be selfish, but my soul may depend on it.

As Always,

May Gods Will Be Done in my life

-- flierdude (more@secrets.coming), December 19, 1999.

What I have come to realize from reading this thread is that there are a Lot of people on this site who aren't NEARLY as important as they Wish they were. Or they WOULD know God. Yes, Y'shua, my prayer for these wannabes is that they ALL get EXACTLY what they DESERVE. Amen.

-- Doorbaby (templeofmyGod@heaven.com), December 19, 1999.

SYSOPS-----PLEASE DELETE THIS THREAD!

Flierdude--

When we post on this forum, we're supposed to name our sources. This gives everyone an opportunity to verify the information. In reading your post, I don't think I've seen such a hodgepodge of so-called "facts" in quite a while. Speaking as a teacher, researcher and student of the Bible, Biblical Archeology and Theology...BACK UP YOUR STATEMENTS WITH SOURCES, or don't make them.

Did Icke document his sources? If so, what are they? What ancient manuscripts did this information come from? Are they recognized as authentic? If Icke doesn't document his sources, you shouldn't believe a word he says--and neither should we.

Flierdude--You have attacked the divinity of Jesus Christ with NO BACKUP SOURCE INFORMATION. That is not only far off-topic, but extremely offensive as well.

Scarlett

-- Scarlett (ohara@tara.net), December 19, 1999.

When a person talks to god, it's called praying.

When god talks to a person, it's called schizophrenia.

< Your unconditional love is commendable. Unfortunately, I have unconditional contempt for man and God. There is no excuse. NONE!!!

-- Infidel (Barbarians@thegate.net), December 19, 1999. >

Infidel, I'm sorry that you have unconditional contempt for both man and god. I have "conditional" love for man. After all, we are merely primates doing what primates do.

God, on the other hand, deserves contempt only if he's still running the show. I'm a bit of a Deist, personally. We believe that god made the universe, then went on to bigger and better things. We've been evolving and doing what comes naturally ever since. Not god's fault, except for creating things in the first place. And the universe, as we know it, seems to be the only game in town.

ALK

-- Al K. Lloyd (all@ready.now), December 19, 1999.

'Beloved, believe not every spirit, but test the spirits whether they be of God; for many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know you the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God; and every spirit that confesses not that Jesus is come in the flesh is not of God: and this spirit is not of God; and this is that spirit of anti-christ, whereof ou have heard that it should come, and even now is already in the world.' I John 4:1-3

...'greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world'...

Aah, A...(Ais,etc. ...)

I'm still praying for you!

What brought you to such alienation?

-- Connie Iversen (hive@gte.net), December 19, 1999.

To Scarlet: I don't know flierdude or his sources, or if every detail he lists is true, but what he posted about the similarities to Christian myth is not very controversial. I think that the Christians have a ready answer, somewhere. (They always do.) Try these references:

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_mccabe/religious_con troversy/chapter_14.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/kersey_graves/16/chap16.htm l

I don't know how he can be so skeptical of Christianity, but grab at some other myth.

Otherwise: I believe in Y2K because I have seen the code up close and personal. I have seen major organizations implement systems in 1996-7 that would not survive the year 2000. I have seen the clueless management. I have seen the year '00' treated as an error. I have seen the comparisons of two digit years, buried in Assembler code that controls the archiving of the data base. I have seen the lists of missed dates in supposedly remediated COBOL code.

I have no evidence for a God. When other people relate why they believe, they seem to describe experiences that I have had, but that did not lead me to God, so I remain agnostic. The argument that you do not lose anything if you do believe (Pascal's wager) is not very convincing. I see a lot that I might have to give up if I decided to believe - I would have to figure out exactly which version of God I had to believe in, I might have to adopt strange rituals or prohibitions. I might have to turn off part of my critical reasoning.

-- kermit (colourmegreen@hotmail.com), December 19, 1999.

Reincarnation is full of surprises. So is the Divine.

;-D

Check out the Dead Sea Scrolls while youre at it. And Joseph Campbells monumental works.

Happy Holidaze.

Diane, once hugged by an angel and it changed my perspectives on reality

(Thats when the real adventures in synchronistic living began over 12 years ago!)

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), December 19, 1999.

The "Christianity is just a rehash of ancient religions" argument is an old one and doesn't hold water. Cetain aspects of Catholicism apply, but the Bible itself forewarns of this deception. The seed of the woman was foretold to Adam with the Serpent all ears, if you'll recall.

Anyone interested, just email me and I'll get you a 5-cassette series entitled "Babylon: Mystery Religion". I have another 5-tape set entitled "Science and the Bible" for anyone who still thinks there's "tons of evidence" to support evolution. In fact, there is none.

Sorry, I don't have time to debate (either here or by email), but the tapes are free. Indulge thyself!

-- (cl4mg@hotmail.com), December 19, 1999.

Scarlett,

If you'll wipe the steam off of your glasses and read the thread again, flierdude named his source at the bottom, "The Biggest Secret" by David Icke.

He's right, the reptiles are the sons of Gods. So are the fish, the birds, the bees, and believe it or not, even humans. Jesus was just one of his quick learners.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), December 19, 1999.

This post has already been deleted:

Shahak, in his book Jewish History, Jewish Religion, highlights the stunning level of racism on which the Jewish (Levite, Brotherhood) law is founded. He tells how the extreme end of this faith, as represented by the orthodox rabbis today, makes it a religious offence to save the life of a Gentile, unless there would be unpleasant consequences for Jews not doing so. The charging of interest on loans to a fellow Jew is banned, but by Talmudic law they must charge a Gentile as much interest as they possibly can. It is demanded that Jews must utter a curse every time they pass a Gentile cemetery and that when they pass a Gentile building they must ask God to to destoy it. The Jewish writer Agnon, after being awarded the NOBEL Prize for literature, said on Israeli Radio: "I am not forgetting that it is forbidden to praise Gentiles, but here there is a special reason for doing so - that is, they awarded the prize to a Jew."

As Jewish writers and anthropologists have said, there is no such thing as the Jewish Race. Jewishness is a faith not a race. Alfred M Lilenthal, the Jewish writer and researcher, said: "There is no reputable anthropologist who will not agree that Jewish racialism is as much poppycock as Aryan racialism...Anthropological science divides mankind into three recognised races: Negro, Mongolian and Oriental, and Caucasian or white. members of the Jewish faith are found in all three races and subdivisions."

Jewish writers such as Arthur Koestler have exposed, all except a small minority of people who created and populated the State of Israel, originate genetically in southern Russia, not Israel. The hooked nose which is considered "Jewish" is a genetic trait of southern Russia and the Caucasus, not Israel.

These are all exerpts from "THE BIGGEST SECRET" BY David Icke

When I find the religion that was not founded by peoples that occupied the Near East and the Caucasus, I will post that religion. So far my readings have revealed that all religions have been created to divide people and instill FEAR in every follower of any particular religion. When people are divided and full of fear they will except the solution of the string pullers who are the (Babylonian Brotherhood)

People, we're all in this together. We must unite, it's us (white, black, yellow, red, Jewish, Christian, Moslem, people of all races and religions against "THEM" The "Babylonian Brotherhood" who created almost all the religons in order to keep us weak. They know their time is limited and the war is progressing very strongly in this period. In the end God will win and we will be free.

-- flierdude (more @to.come), December 19, 1999.

Scarlet,

At the end of each chapter their is between 27 and 46 sources and the page numbers, to back up his statements line by line. Some of his sources are:

A Genesis Apocryphon, The Translation of part of the Dead Sea Scrolls by Naham Avigad and Yigael Yadin, Published in 1956 by the Hebrew University in Jerusalem.

L.A. Waddell, The Phoenician Origin Of Britons, Scots and Anglo Anglo Saons

Second Book of Enoch

Book of Revelation

Geza Vermes, The Dead Sea Scrolls in English

Jordan Maxwell, The Book Your Church Doesen't Want You To Read

Isaiah 5:7

Psalms 80:8

Acts 24:5

Albert Snow, Astrology In The Dead Sea Scrolls. This guy is also the director of the Institute fir Judeo-Christian Origin Studies

Hirsch M Goldberg, The Jewish Connection

The Templer Revelation

The Top 13 Illuminati Blood lines

T.W. Doane, Bible Myths, and their Parallels in other Religions

National Geographic Magazine "New Discoverys on The Mid-Atlantic Ridge

Genesis Revisited

The Zecharia Sitchin series of books

Preston B. Nichols and Peter Moon, Pyramids Of Montauk,

Dr Arthur David Horn, "Humanity's Exterrestrial Origins"

William Bramley, Gods Of Eden

Herbert S Zim Stars, A Golden Guide

Francis Hitching, The World Atlas of Mysteries

Los Angeles Times and Herald Examiner

Alex Christopher, Pandora's Box

AND MANY MANY MORE

-- flierdude (more@to.come), December 19, 1999.

Flierdude--

Thanks for posting some of the sources. Since this forum is not the place to continue this, I'd be happy to discuss the subject via email if you're interested.

Scarlett

-- Scarlett (ohara@tara.net), December 19, 1999.

flierdude,

I'm happy for your changed life. Keep searching. You will find God's will for your life.

-- More Dinty Moore (dac@ccrtc.com), December 19, 1999.

My dear smug, self-righteous CONnie: What brought you to such vacuousness -- birth defect or brainwashing?

-- A (A@AisA.com), December 19, 1999.

For CONnie and all the other smug bible-thumpers who think all knowledge is in one book (two, if you count the Old Testament separately):

Paganism and other religions predate Christianity. I repeat, Christianity is just cobbled together from other stuff. The notion that you don't have to "do anything" to get "saved" (other than accept J.C. as your saviour) is a very smart huckster ploy to get even more semi-human sheep into the fold.

At least with paganism, you could have a lot more fun -- orgies and all.

Below are some websites, loosely related to Christmas, that could open the eyes of a closed-minded Christian were they willing to see. (Not that I necessarily endorse paganism or the contents of these sites.)
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/3217/Solstice.html
http://www.circlesanctuary.org/pholidays/WinterSolstice.html
http://www.circlesanctuary.org/pholidays/SaturnaliaInfo.html

-- A (A@AisA.com), December 19, 1999.

Connie,

Take no offense at A's scoffing; he really "knows not what he does". At least he makes no attempt to hide his contempt, and for that I consider him much more honest than many posters. His rage we can deal with; it is the so-called "professors" with their "Paganized Christianity" that are the real enemy of the Lord and His church.

Blessings to you and your household!

-- TM (mercier7@pdnt.com), December 19, 1999.

Did Icke document his sources? If so, what are they? What ancient manuscripts did this information come from? Are they recognized as authentic? If Icke doesn't document his sources, you shouldn't believe a word he says--and neither should we.

Flierdude--You have attacked the divinity of Jesus Christ with NO BACKUP SOURCE INFORMATION. That is not only far off-topic, but extremely offensive as well.

Scarlett

-- Scarlett (ohara@tara.net), December 19, 1999.

Scarlett scarlett Scarlett!!!

what are we going to do with you???

It's obvious that you haven't even ***LOOKED*** at the book or you would see that the last 30 pagers or so are crammed with annotated and verifiable sources.

Please take your head out of your ass and use your brain - God did give you one you know.

Why attack Icke if you don't know where he's coming from - don't blindly jump to conclusions...

This sort of attitude IMHO gives bible-thumpers a deservedly bad name.

Lighten up.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), December 19, 1999.

- - A(Ais,etc. ...)

I am sorry I came off as 'smug and self-righteous'. That is not my intent. I feel that the Scriptures are 'sharper than any two-edged sword', as they say of themselves, (and they are much sharper than any two-edged tongue.) I use them because they say much better than I can what I intend. You say that pagan religions pre-date Christianity, and of course they do. They just don't pre-date Christ. ('In the beginning was the Word (Christ) and the Word was with God and the Word WAS God.')

As for saying that Christians haven't done anything but copy and use others' inventions, that's not true. Christians have been instumental in the discovery of many inventions and much of our modern technology.

I will rejoice when 'men shall say all manner of evil against you (me) falsely, for His Name's Sake.' I hold nothing against you, because the Lord DID say to His Father: 'Forgive them, for they know not what they do,' when they crucified Him.

And to you, - - TM:

Thank you for your kind words. I pray that God's will will be done per Y2K.

I appreciate your blessings and desire the same for you and yours at this Blessed Season.

-- Connie Iversen (hive@gte.net), December 20, 1999.

If you read all religious conscripts you will notice that there are many similarities among the writings in all from tha Torah to the Corran to the Bible. What everyone seems to overlook (too busy proclaiming their theologists correct and their religion the one true religion) is the fact that no matter what you call him, GOD is still GOD and His Son is still His Son. Ther are all refering to the SAME ENTITIES.

-- son of man (god@your.side), December 20, 1999.

right on son of man!!!!!!!

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), December 20, 1999.

heeheeheeheeheeheheheheheh looks like a whiff of millennial madness is creeping in

-- zing (batty@ratty.hatty), December 20, 1999.

I made a promise to the sys-ops that I would only post it once, and I do keep my word.

Upon reflection and the added posts to this thread I realized that, in all likelihood, I should have originally posted it here instead. So I shall just provide a link. I invite all of you to read the response which I posted on the thread (Link 1) below.

Link 1

I can personally relate to the frustrations of several of the regular posters on this forum with the conduct, behavior, and attitudes of some forum members. Hence, I am seriously questioning my continued presence upon this forum.

Some examples ...

Many have questioned what the mindset of the senior military staff of the US Gov might be regarding the various situations in which they might find themself. To help answer this, I posted a thread containing doctrinal training material relevant to the subject. For this, I was ridiculed and degraded. In the process, I was slandered; my honor, my integrity, my ethics, and my character was viciously and maliciously attacked:

Link 2

With as much time and effort as several of us are putting in conducting and providing detailed research and knowledge to fill gaps in understanding, or to answer questions posed by various other forum members, it appears that the vast majority here spend their considerable amount of time here for the simple task of destroying each other. No one group is any better or worse than any other here ... members of both the 'doomer' and 'polly' groups are equally responsible.

A&L have repeated made the point to many newcomers that meaty posts languish with little or no comments or discussion; while many of the more colorful threads, with little or no substance, garnish sometimes hundreds of posts. Yesterday, I made the point to A&L that the truth of those posts stands on its own, requiring no explanation or discussion. That the truths therein are self-evident. I am beginning to question myself on the veracity of that view. I begin to wonder if it is because - lacking perceived 'ammunition' in a thread or post, some posters decide that there is no fun, hence no time spent on composing a response. There is an old saying among my people - "To speak wrongly or with malice of another, harms not that person; but brings forth disgrace and dishonor upon self!"

Neither side has the advantage of TRUTH on their side over the other! The truth is BOTH sides are actually right. Each in their own areas. In Y2K, just as in life, there shall be balance. I pray each of you find this truth.

Humble Apologies to those who feel I have offended by my words. I pray that truth and understanding shall be shared by all.

Dr. Rev. Michael ThunderLight

-- hiding in plain (sight@edge. of no-where), December 20, 1999.

Oops :-(

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-- hiding in plain (sight@edge. of no-where), December 20, 1999.

I find the study of various religeous beliefs, both old and new to be quite fascinating. The common themes that keep re-appearing speak volumes about both who we are and where we are. I wish I had more time to pursue this study (I say this about all my interests.) However, I do agree with Scarlett's desire for sources though, so I offer two very good sources for folks who find this thread interesting and want to pursue additional study:

Asimov's Guide to the Bible by Isaac Asimov

The Demon-Haunted World by Carl Sagan

The Asimov book is particularly well researched and documented.

-- Arnie Rimmer (Arnie_Rimmer@usa.net), December 20, 1999.

About the mention of reptiles in power:

http://www.davidicke.com/icke/index.html scroll down to The David Icke E~Magazine Reptilian Research Archives

-- Carol (glear@usa.net), December 20, 1999.

Flierdude, Your unconditional love is commendable. Unfortunately, I have unconditional contempt for man and God. There is no excuse. NONE!!!

-- Infidel (Barbarians@thegate.net), December 19, 1999.

Well, Infidel, my response to your last two sencences is:

. . . that you know of. Just because _you_ don't understand it, doesn't mean that there is no reason to it -- a fact that applies to _any_ it.

George

-- George Valentine (georgevalentine@usa.net), December 20, 1999.

Christ story is a cover version

-- number six (!@!.com), December 20, 1999.

Well, so says this sexy broad, Acharya S, who's at the abovementioned link.

-- number six (!@!.com), December 20, 1999.