Why the fear of infrastructure & public transportation? Or, if education is expensive, how much does the alternative cost?

greenspun.com : LUSENET : I-695 Thirty Dollar License Tab Initiative : One Thread

It sorta reminds me of how the Los Angeles mass transit system was dismantled with big money from big business.

Washington citizens want a reasonable functional government, including bus service for my retired father who stands to lose his service, or for me to leave my good car to go downtown on a bus or rail. Real cities, towns,and rural areas all over the world recognize that we need basic infrastructure, including a comprehensive bus and transit system, HOV, rail, and multisystem solutions. This is not Texas, nor Saudi Arabia, nor a fantasy kingdom of limitless oil, roads, and walled cities.

After all, ever hear of the MONORAIL? A lot of Washingtoninans have, and the voters of Seattle elected to expand the existing system as a cost-effective way to keep right-of-way and carry significant numbers. Son of 695 affects our society by shutting out the handicapped, elderly, and low income residents of our state from anything but more cars. Contrast this with the company that leases shared automobiles in Portland, San Francisco, San Diego, etc. This proposed shift back to more cars and roads forces 695 opponents and public transportation advocates to further subsidize the automobile way of life.

Ignoring the needs of all classes in our society leads to disaster. It's been done. This pro tem attack on public transportation is wealth redistribution and social engineering on a dramatic and destructive scale. It makes me worry that the people who drafted the proposed legislation really DO understand the consequences of their actions, but they don't give a dam* about who they hurt in the name of cheap tabs and fast motors for free.

neal

-- neal (healingarts@ynow.com), December 17, 1999

Answers

Neal says, "Washington citizens want a reasonable functional government, including bus service for my retired father who stands to lose his service, or for me to leave my good car to go downtown on a bus or rail."

You are correct, Washington citizens do want a reasonable functional government, but with a reasonable cost.

Your father stands to lose his service. I have heard many times from passengers that they moved to Washington State because the elderly/disabled get such good bus service. Service they couldn't get for free or nearly free, where they came from. Bus riders need to learn to pay more, so they will not lose service. That is one solution being kicked about in your father's Transit District. Much higher fares. Still, much less than the cost of owning, insuring and operating a car. But you expect it for nearly nothing. You want to spread the cost burden around, so it costs you and your father less. Even though I may not chose to ride, with good reason, (the cost to taxpayers to have a bus pick me up, out here in the sticks, is absurd!) you want me to pay for it. Social engineering.

Yes, citizens want you to leave your good car to go downtown on a bus or rail, so there is less congestion when they drive their good cars downtown. Mass Transit is too expensive if people don't use it. Get more people to use it, I may be willing to subsidize it more. Right now, it seems, many think light rail is a good idea, if EVERYONE ELSE will ride it.

The whole problem with your theory that "This pro tem attack on public transportation is wealth redistribution and social engineering on a dramatic and destructive scale" ignores the fact that NO ONE forced citizens to vote for I-695. What you call wealth redistribution, is in fact bull. It became wealth REdistribution when it was taken from me, after I earned it and put to a use I had no say in. What you call social engineering, we call democracy. That's what you have when citizens cast their votes. I repeat, NO ONE forced citizens to vote FOR I-695. You can complain all you want. Tim Eyman held no guns to anyone's head. Fortunatly, this is a free country. If you were somewhere else, you could be jailed for conspiracy for statements such as those you made. This may not be Texas or Saudi Arabia, but it's also not Iraq or China either. Enjoy your freedom, and pay your fair share.

Neal says, "Ignoring the needs of all classes". We have been throwing money away for decades to help the needs of all classes. How has it helped? It served to make the poor dependant, and created a whole new class of people. Public employees, who are going to take more tax dollars in salary and benefits than what the rest of us get. That leaves less for the poor, but you won't acknowledge the fact.

Social engineering, as you call it, created these problems you are so upset about. If more government functions were privitized, or contracted out, and government employees weren't getting more than their fair share, we would be able to take better care of those who need to be taught how to be successful and productive citizens. When big government looks only to make itself bigger, no one will be better off. Not your dad, and not you.

Neal says' "I believe those who drafted the proposed the legislation DO understand the consequences of their actions, but they don't give a dam* about who they hurt in the name of cheap tabs and fast motors for free".

Great theory. But "they" hurt no one. The problem I have with this is people such as yourself keep forgetting, WE THE VOTER'S, IN THE MAJORITY, PASSED I-695. Not Tim Eyman. Neither you, nor I, should care about what the motivations were on the part of Tim Eyman. You are just like any bureacrat, thinking WE don't know what we are doing. I am here to tell you, this is one instance that WE were given all the information WE needed, the information was well covered. WE are willing to take responsibility for the outcome. As for those who are responsible for not caring about you or your father's plight, it is I, and many more like me! WE don't want big government, a welfare state, or social engineering by you. We want to be in control of our own destiny. We don't want socialism. If you don't like our democratic, capitalistic society, leave. WE will not yield. I thank God, that there are more of us than you.

-- Marsha (acorn_nut@hotmail.com), December 17, 1999.


Want some cheese with that WHINE?

-- (zowie@hotmail.com), December 17, 1999.

Just goes to prove that the liberals are really the name callers in the crowd. Don't care to be taxed to support Maplethorpe (not into whips and leather personally), you're a homophobe. Don't care to be taxed to support inefficient public transportation, you're afraid of public transportation and somehow pro ignorance. Disagree with ME, and you are a less worthy person. What a bunch of bull......

Fund your air castles with your OWN money neal, I'm sick of giving you mine.

-- Mark Stilson (mark842@hotmail.com), December 17, 1999.


Neal:

Just keep in mind what Jonathan Swift once observed: "You cannot reason a person out of a position he did not reason himself into in the first place." (See, for example, Zowie's brilliant ad hominem "answer" to your post.)

-- Me (abc@def.ghi), December 17, 1999.


"Me"-

"The single most exciting thing you encounter in government is competence, because it's so rare." Daniel Patrick Moynihan (b. 1927) US Senator

I like quotations. Keep them coming. Zowie

-- (zowie@hotmail.com), December 17, 1999.



Me-

Meet you at high noon on main street with quotation books in hand. When we get to ten paces, slap leather (covers) and come out blazing.

"The most dangerous man, to any government, is the man who Is able to think things out for himself, without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost invariably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane and intolerable, and so, if he is romantic, he tries to change it. And if he is not romantic personally, he is apt to spread discontent among those who are." Henry Louis Mencken (1880-1956)

-- (zowie@hotmail.com), December 17, 1999.


Me-

"The man who goes alone can start today; but he who travels with another must wait till that other is ready." -Henry David Thoreau

Doesn't sound like Thoreau would have thought much of van pooling or transit, does it?

-- (zowie@hotmail.com), December 17, 1999.


WASSAMATTA "Me"--

Out of quotes?

-- (zowie@hotmail.com), December 20, 1999.


Government never furthered any enterprise but for the alacrity with which it got out of the way." Henry David Thoreau (1817-62) Didn't like transit OR big government apparently.

-- (zowie@hotmail.com), December 20, 1999.

Another from the "Sage of Baltimore", Mr. Henry Lewis Mencken:

"The theory of modern American democracy is that the common man knows what he wants and deserves to get it, good and hard."

Reading that again, I'n not sure just what side of the fence that quote should be placed. It's one of my favorites, anyway.

-- Albert Fosha (AFosha@aol.com), December 21, 1999.



There's nothing wrong with public transportation, as long as the voters have some say. The voters of the Puget Sound region have already voted for Sound Transit. So far, so good. Tim Eyman's initiative make little sense, since the DOT primarily spends most of the gas tax money on road maintenance, as it is. That's one of the reasons Washington's roads are so much better than the rest of the country. I realize that's not saying much.

I voted in favor of I-695 because I want to see new road construction paid for with higher gas taxes. Plus, I wouldn't mind seeing new roads which people could optionally use, if they're willing to pay a toll. So, I think, to some extent, Tim Eyman is on the right track. Ultimately, we need people to pay for the services they want.

-- Matthew M. Warren (mattinsky@msn.com), December 21, 1999.


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