While there's still a little time left to find one: not many people can round up (sorry for the pun) a big pile of ammo, and if TSHTF, guns may be proscribed anyway. How about something else? Although I have access to a nice m1 Carbine for defense, the bullets won't last forever. However, I also have a beautiful high-carbon steel broadsword that will never run empty, has no moving parts to wear out, and will seriously f*** someone up if they try to harass me. Best of all, it was about 180 bucks, and also looks way more intimidating than anything short of an assault rifle (and maybe more than that). Yes, you have to get close to the harasser, but if you can't do it at that range, you shouldn't be doing it anyway. as long as it is kept sharp, it will be lethal. If it comes to the point where self-defense is necessary, many "predators" will not have ready access to large supplies of bullets, and will resort to knives. Also, if TPTB proscribe weapons, it will be the obvious ones, like handguns, assault rifles etc. It is unlikely they will think to specify long edged weapons, which makes them ideal as a backup defense weapon. Many catalogs stock all sorts of useable (not display) replicas in many sizes, so small people can be outfitted with dirks or shortswords, and larger people could use longer weapons. Before anyone jumps all over this, no, I am not suggesting the dark ages are upon us, or that it will get even remotely that bad, but non-firearm lethal weapons should be a consideration for those of you concerned about intruders, weapons grabs, or useable self-defense. Anyone can hack someone with a sword. It requires no special training, target practice or anything else. If you plan to fight a pitched hand-to-hand, weapons training is essential, but the intruder who comes into your house to grab supplies/cash/whatever will be unaware, and easy pickings for a rapid response from anyone within reach, with no safeties,cocking,or reloading necessary.

Just a thought...

-- Little Pig (littlepig@brickhouse.com), December 16, 1999

Answers

Good advice, but I think I'll keep my .45. Remember, cache early and often.

-- Stars and Stripes (stars_n_stripes@my-deja.com), December 16, 1999.

I don't own a gun. Instead I buy rice to uh bribe my neighbors....So with that weak disclaimer I need to raise the issue of proscription:

Rioters (Seattle included) use (sp?) molotov cocktails. I suspect our law enforcement boys have better defence against bullets than these cocktails? Of course, this observation, however lame, is also mute because it will be the criminals that keep their guns anyway, and only us civilian folks without bullet proof attire that suffer.

Oh, rumored from man I met who said his son is a VA Trooper: say the Mossberg Riot Shotgun will need to be registered in VA as of January 2000. If accurate, and given this is the weapon VA Troopers use for riot control, I would anticipate these weapons being confiscated and used by Troopers/NG.

****Virginian, have you seen anything in our papers on this? I don't know anyone with weapons other than a colleague who's husband hunts, so I'm outta the loop on this category of info...

-- Hokie (nn@va.com), December 16, 1999.

Alternative to guns?.............Slavery.

Seriously though, I have a sword also, and plan on having it on hand. Those things have LOTS of uses.

-- CygnusXI (noburnt@toast.net), December 16, 1999.

Psst, it's poison darts!

-- (amazonia@jungle.justice), December 16, 1999.

Crossbows are my alternate of choice. You can always make new ammo, if you are patient. Flamethrowers, as long as you can make alchohol, are quite nasty as well, but hard to control and no good at close quarters. I saw a guy stocking up on throwing stars, but forget that, too much skill required.

Get more ammo!

PyroKook

-- Y2Kook (Y2Kook@usa.net), December 16, 1999.

Have katana, will travel.

Aside from firearms, I have always planned on wakisashi being strapped to back (slightly smaller sword)...provides better advantage in a knife fight. Iado and Kendo training may yet prove invaluable for me.

However, you assume too much when saying using a sword requires no training. Like a firearm, practice makes perfect and is essential for proper safe use. Sure anyone can swing a sword or machete, do you know how much force is required to cut or run through an intruder? If you miss, or your blade is batted away by a knife or machete - can you effectively parry a counter attack from your adversary? Can you parry a thrust and use the momentum to redirect an attack?

Knife and sword combat is no different than learning a martial art. You wouldn't assume that you could adequately defend yourself against a trained black belt with your fists just because you know how to punch. Granted, surprise is an ultimate advantage with whatever weapon you have, but if the intruder is armed with a gun, chances are...you lose.

There is a reason they call firearms the "Great Equalizer". No training or conditioning required to take out an enemy. That's why I plan on having both defensive options available on my person if society goes Postman, or Central L.A.

Plus, chances are if you are going up against anyone with military training, they have had knife-fighting skills, which may put you at a disadvantage, unless you do surprise them.

But yes, swords are relatively maintenance-free and would be effective close quarters protection if you know how to use one aside from mimicing the sword fights in Zorro.

There are great books and videos available about the Way of the Sword. Check them out if you decide to have a sword as a defensive option...then train, train, train. I would suppose Amazon.com has an extensive library of books and videos on this subject.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), December 16, 1999.

If they get the guns they'll come after everything else. Go to http://www.hmso.gov.uk/cgi-bin/empower?DB=reshmso and search for the phrase "Anti-Knife"

It's happened there and if we let it, it will happen here.

-- Powder (Powder@keg.com), December 16, 1999.

Am generally armed with a sharp retort. (How about, *Does your mother know you're out here?*)

-- Mara (MaraWayne@aol.com), December 16, 1999.

I mean, the untrained cann't use swords, broad or otherwise, the elderly and disabled cannot fight or run away. Despite the rampant rise in sales, most people don't currently own guns. The best alternative is for us to remain as civil as possible. Prayer is good, too.

-- Mara (MaraWayne@aol.com), December 16, 1999.

Having spent some years in the SCA I have a couple of swords myself, including a signed katana that I'm right fond of.

Nevertheless, it won't be playing any signficant role in my defense planning.

The government can proscribe firearms until Hell freezes over and they'll never get them all, particularly not from the criminal element (and those us they'll be turning into criminals by trying to).

With that in mind it comes down to the old adage about never starting a gun fight with a knife.

You don't need thousands of rounds of ammo, not even hundreds. Perhaps a hundred rounds will be more than you'll need for the whole Y2K problem. If you get into the kinds of firefights that use up more ammo than you you're chances of survival approach nil.

.........Alan.

The Prudent Food Storage FAQ, v3.5

http://www.providenceco-op.com

-- A.T. Hagan (athagan@sprintmail.com), December 16, 1999.

Clint Eastwood said it best.

Do you feel lucky?

Well do you?

-- snooze button (alarmclock_2000@yahoo.com), December 16, 1999.

Slingshots. Ball bearings or marbles.

-- Mr. Mike (miekabn@aol.com), December 16, 1999.

Whe we bought this house years ago, there was a gun rack. I put the cheesy Spanish sword I'd gotten at a yard sale up there, and told the little kid up the road that it was Excalibur. He's grown up now. He went on the gun track, I went on the Pendragon track. We'll see what works.

I have no hesitation about triggering the alarm and having him or any of the other neighbors use their guns. There are some occasions where it would be far more useful than close quarters work with my machete. I really don't want to wipe blood with rabies virus off my tools, it uses up an ungodly amount of one's bleach stash (you HAVE access to information on rabies protocols, haven't you?). I had to take a suspicious death varmint into the the health department this fall for rabies testing. I was so tempted to go to the bank and attempt a hold-up. How many times can one ever get a chance to say, "Hand me over all the money in your drawer. I have a rabid chipmunk in my pocket and I'm not afraid to use it!"

What I have to do, when I have to do it, I'll do with whatever tools are best for the job that I have. Sometimes it will be my tongue and my wits, sometimes it will use up the bleach supply afterward.

Don't forget, Heloise says to use cold water on the blood stains rather than hot water, which would set them. We may go back to the stone age, but we don't have to look like slobs while we do it. [den mother mode off]

-- Firemouse (firemouse@fcmail.com), December 16, 1999.

The best thing I came across is the pistleGuard, a pepperspray made in Taiwan, which can shoot 20 feet. It looks cool and measures around a foot long. I tried it. It's powerful. Great for dispersing a riotous crowd. Search under Pistolguard or pepper spray. The lowest price is I think around $49. Worth it. Some states illegal, but they will still mail to you. Check with your state attorney general.

There is another smaller pepper spray ( 4 oz. fogger) which claims to spray 20 foot, much cheaper ($13.95) , just found the number. 1800-806-0254. They may also carry the big spray, I never try the smaller one. I don't sell any such things. Be safe.

-- George (George@getit.net), December 16, 1999.

Re: no training with swords. As I said in the orig. post, fighting for any length of time with a sword requires training, but using one as a pre-emptive strike at an intruder (one swing only) can be done by almost anyone. I have to say, I prefer a double-edge to a katana-type; someone referenced the effort needed to injure someone. With a single-edge (Japanese) sword, yes. They are relatively light and thin. A European-style broadsword is roughly twice as heavy, and will break bones, even without any kind of penetration. You need a mighty stout shield or staff to parry a well-swung hand-and-a-half without losing your grip, even if it is swung by someone with relatively little strength, just because of the momentum. Crossbows are nice, but look enough like guns that anyone confiscating guns might see the stock and automatically think "gun". Swords just aren't seen as weapons anymore, especially the European type. Granted, you may never need even 50 rounds, but if a "State of Emergency" is declared, firearms may be proscribed. In such a case, even if you had reason to carry one with you for protection, you would be unable to, since law enforcement would likely be doing searches for them.

Again, just a thought...

-- Little Pig (littlepig@brickhouse.com), December 16, 1999.

If you use your gun you take the gun and ammo from the loser. Remember the scene in Indiana Jones where this giant with a sword was threatning Jones, looked dire, till Jones pulled his piece & dispatched him.

-- none (none@none.com), December 16, 1999.

A great weapon is a fire extinguisher. You can spray it in their face. They will go running for air and relief. Then you knock them in the head with the same extinguisher.

-- Spray (Fireman@hose.com), December 16, 1999.

Student of 16th century warfare includes in her stockpile: Samurai sword, 12 in dagger, 6 in stiletto, the odd bits of chain mail, a Claymore sword replica and the piece de resistance' a pair of double bladed Irish battle axes! Builtir Cabir a Buaigh! All y2k compliant I might add :>) Compliments the shortwave, handpumpwell, 80 qts. of canned veggies done by hand etc. Ready to ride forth under the banner of St. John. Mr. Winchester will be joining me, just in case.

-- Lorelei the Pagan (mermaid@rhineroc.com), December 16, 1999.

Remember in the first "Indiana Jones" movie when that guy had that huge sword and thought he was going to mess up Harrison Ford. Then Indiana pulled out his pistol and shot him. I think I would rather have a gun (both would be the best). They have a lot more range than a sword.

-- Drew (dontshoot@orslice.me), December 16, 1999.

I spent some time in the company of a number of folks that were certified (read: WELL trained) swordsfolk, most of whom were or had relatives that were martial artists. From them I've picked up several sword arts (you don't wanna know what I can do with a Tai Chi broadsword) and am a mean mutha with most any edged weapon. But I gotta say this...

If you do not know how to handle a sword properly you WILL injure yourself, possibly severely, when you try to wield it under pressure. It's very easy to catch yourself on a backswing (think other arm/shoulder, back of the sword arm, etc.) or drawcut yourself or any one of a number of things. Plus, the more speedy combat sword designs (Japanese swords, scimitars, rapiers, et al) can whip around on you faster than you'd think if you're not adept at handling them. (Most people that are decent swordspeople have injured themselves in some way at least once, and some of the less fortunate have done a real number on themselves with one mistake.)

If you are taking the edged-weapon approach as a close-quarters backup weapon, you need to get educated on how to do it right without losing anything you deem important (fingers, bits of rib, etc.) in the process. And with 360 hours to go, tick tick tick tick tick tick...

As an aside, one goodie I've had a chance to play with was one of Ontario Knife Co.'s Black Wind swords, which are utilitarian single- ground versions of several shortswords, daggers, and smaller swords. Their katana can be found online for about $110 or so and at 30" long it's small enough to pack. Balance was good, as was the sharpnes of the edge, but as a utilitarian piece it's not all pretty to look at. Then again if you need it to fabricate shelter or ward off an assailant, who cares what it looks like... They have a number of them imitating various designs.

O d d O n e, who can go toe to toe with the average swordsman and at least keep him busy...

-- OddOne (mocklamer_1999@yahoo.com), December 16, 1999.

Swords are cool, but don't forget "Rule # 1":

"Never bring a knife to a gun fight."

-- this sounds (like@fun.cob), December 16, 1999.

Mossberg shotgun shooting slugs- penetrate where 00 won't. Have a fighting staff....6' long and heavy. Tomahawk and bowie knife. and finally, my butterfly knife.

Got a few other goodies but those are my main toyz. };-]

-- Satanta (SilentDe@th.com), December 16, 1999.

Odd One: Agree totally about the need for experience. I use a 34" double-edge, which is an interpretation of a Norman design. Much slower than a Japanese combat sword, and way heavier, but also capable of more damage, since the weight alone makes it something to reckon with. The grip is two-handed, but the blade is short enough to use one-handed with little loss of effectiveness, so I don't have to worry as much about wacking myself on follow-through. Also, it has nice thick quillions, so I won't lose fingers if I get into a blade-press. As I stated above, in a toe-to-toe, you would want the experience, but as a knee-jerk grab-whatever's-around-to-nail-the-intruder kind of thing, anyone can wound someone with a sword enough to make them think twice about sticking around. I certainly wouldn't recommend my 5'3" wife try that with my broadsword, but with a large dirk, or a shortsword, she might do ok.

In general: yes, a gun is nice, and I do remember the Indiana Jones scene. My original point was that a sword is something .gov won't think to proscribe, should they declare a state of emergency, and therefore can be carried with at least some equanimity as personal defense without the carrier risking a shakedown by MPs (though I do realize that the law frowns on large edged weapons as well). I think you could make a case for carrying one, if guns are proscribed, to any cop that stops you, simply by pointing out that the streets are still dangerous, and if you could carry a gun you would, but since you can't this is almost as good.

Still just thinkin...

-- Little Pig (littlepig@brickhouse.com), December 16, 1999.

Whoopie cushions at 20 paces

-- (overcome@gaseous.discharge), December 16, 1999.

How about using a sling-shot, firing sharpened knives, or bolts. They would go straight through a person. For a better effect, coat them with poison, and let fly! Be careful not to hit yourself with them though....

-- Crono (Crono@timesend.com), December 16, 1999.

Stealth, cunning, patience, darkness and a razor sharp Ka-Bar.

-- Sgt. Rock (sly@dark.com), December 16, 1999.

I like the crossbow idea, off to BassPro Shops! also- I have 6 cans of Wasp/Hornet Spray (shoots 20feet). Anyone can grab a can and fire away ($2.99 per can) may be useful with people that aren't waving a gun around.
of course I'll have gun as backup...

-- plonk! (realaddress@hotmail.com), December 16, 1999.

A bamboo stick katana fills one's self defense needs rather handily. You appear unarmed, but if you know what you are doing, just the opposite is true. As one old instructor used to say, "Proximity negates weapon superiority and surprise overcomes training."

-- Nothing like (looking@harmless.com), December 16, 1999.

The way you people enthusiastically entertain notions of dispatching human beings with assorted weapons is sickening.

Don't hand me that garbage that "self defense is an ugly business". Self defense is not pole axes, crossbows, and daggers. We got out of the Dark Ages a few hundred years ago if you kids hadn't noticed.

You guys don't need to discuss this stuff, and I doubt if anyone learned anything from this little discussion. You're obviously ever so happy to talk about it though aren't you? I'm thinking your all white males, between the ages of 17 and 28, and have a lot of pent up hostility towards the world.

Yeah yeah I know, in a month I'll be knocking on your doors, begging to do anything for just a little morsel of food. Right before you you behead me and shoot up my corpse with your Mossberg Tactical Shotguns.

Whatever!

Again, sickening.

-- (and@that's all.she wrote), December 16, 1999.

And just to clarify, when I say I'm thinking you're white males, between the ages of 17 to 28 with a lot of pent up hostility towards the world, that doesn't mean I'm jaded against young white males. I simply mean that you're ACTING like bratty little kids in a locker room talking about things you've always wished for but never had the guts to actually do.

-- (and that@is REALLY. all she wrote), December 16, 1999.

Here in Australia, I don't have a gun. Unfortunately.

What I do have is a couple of very sharp knives, an iron bar, and a five-foot steel pipe, an inch or so in diameter and with concrete on one end. A nice quarterstaff. I'm also going to have three or four Molotov cocktails prepared, just in case I absolutely need them.

Although I don't think I will. Given how I'm currently prepared, if it comes to the point where I have to fight for my life, I'm already going to be dead.

Leo

-- Leo (lchampion@ozemail.com.au), December 16, 1999.

Sorry to upset your demographics, but I'm a 47 year old soccer mom with two little kids. I'll do what I need to do to protect my family, and that may include taking someone out if I have to.

-- Firemouse (firemouse@fcmail.com), December 16, 1999.

Well sickening, I'm a 72 year old male who has seen more than he wanted to. I can state catigorically that survival in desperate situations is at least 50% mental attitude.

When your life or the lives of your family are at stake, violence may be your only answer. As one spec war instructor used to say, "You don't have to like it, you just have to do it."

And if you have to do it, you better know how, or you're days may be considerably shortened.

-- Nothing like (looking@harmless.com), December 16, 1999.

36 yr old soccer mom with pre-teen, stockpile, two giant dogs, shortwave, canned produce, handpumpwell, seeds AND assorted non- confiscatable weaponry. Your point Ms. Sickening? I intend to defend my life if need be and trained/prepped accordingly. Will YOUR dear spouse make it home from work in mid January? Hope so. If not, judge not lest ye be judged. Men keep talking, I'm listening.

-- Lorelei the Pagan (mermaid@rhineroc.com), December 16, 1999.

My personal favorite was the Chowbabe's defense { or was it an offense? Are ya still out there Paula?}

It went something like this:

First - she was gonna offer them a kitten.

If that didn't work, she would shoot them a shy glance - and quickly fasten on a wedding veil.

As for me, I'm still working out my dangerous disco ball tactics.

-- flora (***@__._), December 17, 1999.

Broadswords pfft!

Jousts!

They don't like it up 'em!

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), December 17, 1999.

I worked my way through Divinity school by working as a bouncer in one of the roughest clubs in town (I know, funny but true...). I learned a whole shipload of lessons there that serve me well now and would serve me whatever happens.

Example 1: Do not get into a fight. A fight is the worst way to solve any problem and if you're quick enough and have creative intelligence, virtually any situation can be diffused. If you have enough experience you develop intuition about the opposing force you're up against and learn to spot different kinds of vulnerability. If you're really smart, you hold that information close (even tiptoeing around it) unless you end up losing control of your environment.

Example 2: Your real need for a weapon is very rare. There are few places where you can be that wouldn't yield a lethal weapon within grabbing distance. The entire time I worked, I worked without any weapon, save for three tense nights that I carried a homemade "sap" in my pocket (a roll of quarters in a knotted sock). I consider it a personal failure that I ended up using it one of those nights, but if it hadn't been there, I likely would've been forced to use whatever else came to hand, potentially something more dangerous.

Example 3: If you've exhausted all of your options, fight as dirty as you have to in order to regain control of your environment. There's no shame in resorting to tricks (and there are hundreds of them) if someone won't be reasonable, but don't let yourself get angry. The objective is to control the situation, your environment, and yourself. Never take action beyond what's needed. Even real a**holes will respect the fact that you could've done them serious damage, but did'nt feel the need to.

This forum is often overly hostile, and when the question of self defense comes up, the response falls along the lines of "blow them away" or "chop their heads off" and such. For the most part, this is just fear talking, but I sense that at least a small percentage might actually react in this way. I urge you all to consider (deeply) the notion that the use of a lethal weapon is to be saved for that worst possible time when all possibilities of saving life have been exhausted.

-- Choirboy (choirboy@hellzchoir.edu), December 17, 1999.

From: Y2K, ` la Carte by Dancr (pic), near Monterey, California

My local gun shop is real low on ammo and explains it by saying that they've been letting inventory run down in order to not have to count as much as the end of the year for tax purposes. Reportedly, their suppliers are doing the same thing.

-- Dancr (addy.available@my.webpage), December 17, 1999.

Choirboy, absolutely right!

A violent response should always be the last choise. However, it's sometimes unavoidable. Here's an example:

My dad was a career Navy line officer, but in 1927 he resigned his commission, and from 1930 to 1939, my parents were Baptist missionaries to the Philippines. On one trip in 1932 we landed on Jolo, a major island South of the Philippines. Unknown to us, the Muslim Imams up in the hills had been stoking up the natives on beetle nut (a local narcotic) and sending them down into town to kill a few Christians. If the jihadists were lucky enough to get a white missionary, WOW, that was the supreme bonus that would net 70 more houris in Paradise, or some such.

Well, guess when Dad decides to go ashore and take his five year old son with him? Jolo was not really safe under any circumstances, and Dad knew it, so he always carried a sword cane that had a solid silver handle (carved into a monkeys fist) that was about the size of a baseball.

Well, I'm romping along holding on to my dad's when this crazed native comes at us screaming and swinging this monster kris (a wavy sword with a blade about 40" long). Dad doesn't let go of my hand, but looks down at me and says calmly, "Stand fast, son." Dad then throws his sword cane up in the air and catches it by the small end. The native tries to take Dad's head off, Dad parries, and clubs the murderous lunatic with the silver monkey fist, crushing his skull.

Dad steps over the body, and I start to walk around it. Dad says, "Oh no, son. You don't walk around your enemies, you walk over them." And he made me walk over the corpse. No sound and fury and no spin for the media. Sometimes you just do what you gotta do.

Few realize how quickly the veneer of civilization will drop off if Y2k goes badly and people are starving. If they had been in Homestead, FL after Hurricane Andrew hit, they might get a bit of the picture. People with shotguns were standing in their doorways of their houses to protect their property from looters, and rescue teams with food and water were physically attacked by some of the good, friendly, middle class folks of South Kendall.

Now the major deprivations caused by Hurricane Andrew just lasted a few days . . . try stretching those disruptions into a couple of weeks, or even the months that Y2k might and what will you have? Big time anarchy that no government will be able to control. What could any government do with 85,000,000 crazed and starving people of the Northeast corridor, for instance?

As an individual, you have to lock and load and keep a low profile.

-- Lotning like (looking@harmless.com), December 17, 1999.

Sheesh, can't spell my own Alias.

-- Nothing like (looking@ harmless.com), December 17, 1999.

baseball bat,gardenhose packed with sand

-- (scottshere@hotmail.com), February 16, 2003.

I completely agree w/ choirboy that violence should never be used as the first resort in a crappy situation. However, I like weapons- especially long edged ones, which I make at home from scavenged steel. If it comes to utilizing force, you can expect me to do just that.

I would have loved taking part in this little exchange of blade talk over 3 years ago, but since the time is now and not then, I really have nothing relevant to say for that disgusted whiney b**ch out there who had absolutely no respect for our anarchic fantasies about slashing someone's skull in half.

I think guns are pretty handy too when facing an armed opponent. Personally, I'd rather have both in a real hectic fight.

Sap flecked with obsidian works too. Yep.

-- blood tastes good... sometimes (sorryI'm@stillfake.com), February 27, 2003.