I'm listening to an old trapper on genesis, on old country survival.

http://gcnlive.2z.net/

I'm gonna add here some of his tips, I just wanted to paste the site real quick incase anyone wants to tune in...

-- Hokie (nn@va.com), December 10, 1999

Answers

Thanks Hokie. Am tuned in.

-- haha (haha@haha.com), December 10, 1999.

This guys says after WWII in Europe, especially countries suffering the food shortages from communism, folks he has talked to who survived those days told him stories of roving pacts of wild dogs as the biggest danger.

Families without food for pets would, rather than put the animal down, would release them. So these dogs would turn wild, and form pacts of 30 to 40 dogs, sometimes up to 150. This trapper sees post y2k presenting a tremendous problem in this country of wild pacts of dogs for the same reason. Folks told him that in the communist countries they had to give up their weapons, so if they wanted to take a walk, especially at night, they would go in groups of at least 5 people all carrying bats to beat off the wild dogs. Tips follow. The code was: make it to the first doorway, and even if you didn't know the family, they would put you up for the night for safety.Pacts were in cities, and even roving the woods or countryside.

His survival tips (I typed as he spoke, then cut to paste here):

Hold your ground; don't try to outrun cause you will NEVER make it (unlike the guys in movies, the dogs WILL take you down he said). Don't show fear. Shoot the first pack leader, then the next. Usually if you down 3 then the others may hightail it. Hold your ground, never back down or show fear. If you show fear then that may frenzy them. If you don't have a weapon, grab a stick to beat them. If you have nothing, then climb a tree!!!

Don't panic cause once you panic, you are dead, he said.

Anyone else have tips on this? My thought are: Never let your child out unattended, or without a weapon/mace. I suppose we will see humans as well resort to a pact mentality, and we have talked about that. He said definitely watch your livestock, and keep your dog tied so he won't chase them and be killed (but I guess if you have a working farm dog, or preferably a pact then of working dogs, it will be their job to fight off these dogs?)

-- Hokie (nn@va.com), December 10, 1999.

Rule #1- Drop the chalupa!

-- CD (not@here.com), December 10, 1999.

CD-That was the funniest response I have seen in weeks! I needed a good laugh. I'm not saying dogs couldn't be a problem, but that was funny!

-- morgan (bitbybit@eoni.com), December 10, 1999.

Hokie... Interesting thoughts. You have provided me with something to think about that I had not considered. When I was a boy (too long ago to mention) I was hunted by a pack. You will hear them, at first far away. You will think they are on another trail. Then they will be there, suddenly and all around. At that moment, stop. Take a deep breath. They will stand still when they first see you. They will size you up. They will wait for their brothers before they come. If you are in forested country use that time to pick a tree. You will need to get atleast ten feet off the ground. If you are in desert country, I pray you have a weapon. The pack is controlled by the Alpha male, he is the one that will make the first move, the first sound. If you must fight on the ground (and only if you must) KILL THAT DOG FIRST. It is very important that you take that dog down. If there are only a few dogs that will do it. If there are several the second the beta male will challenge you. Take that dog down. For taking down dogs, if you have no handgun or shotgun, carry two sticks. A heavy two handed wand about 1.5 inches in diameter and a lighter single handed club about 18" long. Use the long one to keep them away, the short one to knock them on the snout. Dog's noses are fragile, break one and that dog will leave you alone.

It is a strange feeling to be the hunted rather than the hunter. Don't let it rattle you. They can smell fear.

-- (...@.......), December 10, 1999.

Dear Sir,

If you will talk to the rural folks in the south west. You will find that wild dog packs are a problem at times now..I was held at bay from my truck for one whole night in North East Arizona back in the late 70's by a pack of Cyotes being led by several Coydogs (this is a mix between a dog and a cyote) these animalshave the intelligence of the coyote and the size and no fear of man attitude of a dog.

I have watched a pair of cyotes lure a mothe cow away from her calf so they could kill it. And I have been on more than one hunt with ranchers to take out a pack of feral dogs.( that had been thrown away by their ownes)( and they banded togeather to survive)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Shakey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

-- Shake (in_a_bunker@forty.feet), December 10, 1999.

Shakey:

I'd like to hear more of your experiences. They are interesting.

-- haha (haha@haha.com), December 10, 1999.

Hay Hokie Neighbor--

Wonder if you knew. Cyotes were introduced in WV and other eastern states a few years ago. Reason: "To help control the deer population". I don't buy it. I'm sure that the DNR and other "eco" management agencies in the eastern states do believe it.

Cyotes are the perfect scavengers, as well as hunters, especially when inbread with domestic dogs.

What could that mean? Maybe to help clean up and eleminate the tenatious human population left after the changes.

BTW, our DNR also reintroduced mountain lion in our part of the Applachian range. I am all in favor of this though, mountain lion, panther, cougar or whatever you chose to call them, were once native to our mountains. Only extinct in this century. But cyotes, or wild dogs? I don't think so! Maybe in primative history, but not in recent generations.

What do you think? Are they sneakin' this stuff in for the great clean-up?

Crybaby

-- Mountaineer Crybaby (Crybaby@tearsforfears.net), December 11, 1999.

This has been discussed before and its no laughing matter. Wish I could find the links. In my area, people let their dog run and they are problem. I have a ten year old and its a great concern to me and myself. If thing really go bad, people in the city will be giving their dogs that old ride into the county just to have us take care of it for them. Sad indeed!!

-- Bill (sticky@2sides.tape), December 11, 1999.

Be careful now how you talk about canines. There are a few that frequent this board. We chase squirrels too so that should show that we are on the side of rightousness. (Squirrel King beware).

The coyote was introduced to the east as a result of his own four feet. There were reports of coyotes (1965) getting off railroad cars in a switching yard in Penn. (Hitchhikers). They came east just like the armadillo is coming north. Armadillo happens to be good to eat (if you can chew through the shell). I'm glad they reintroduced the cougar to the east. I remember camping out in the WVa mountains outside Charleston and rolling over at 3 am and seeing a great cat sitting on the other side of the fire. Talk about "NO FEAR'!! That cat was far less afraid of me than I was of him! He sat there for about 20 minutes (that I know of) and then just ambled off. I laid there and shook for 30 minutes. The other two boys with me had slept thru all but the last 2 or 3 minutes. We packed up and went home. I don't think our parents believed us until they saw the tracks in the dirt at the edge of the firebreak. Played hell getting permission to go camping again for a while.

Sorry, got off the subject there reminiscing ( us old timers do that, you know). Anyway, wild dog packs are a problem in quite a few rural enviorments. A lot of times, the problems are that family pets will pack at night and be 'o so sweet at home'. I have had to eliminate a couple that liked the taste of goat meat. Montana style 'Shoot, shovel and shut up". 12 gauge is best. Rifle is just too slow if there is more than two or three. I have been challenged while protecting my goat herd. Needless to say, I won but I didn't enjoy it. I do not go out now without at least a sidearm while on the farm.

-- Lobo (atthelair@yahoo.com), December 11, 1999.

A report from a local paper stated that people in my area are breeding and releasing wolves...yes I said wolves. One persons thoughtless actions can have an impact on so many.

-- grannyclampett (don'thave@clue.com), December 11, 1999.

Thanks Lobo, You said it better than I could explain.

-- Bill (sticky@2sides.tape), December 11, 1999.

Check out Buckshot's Camp. He has more terrifying tales of dog attacks than I would want to have to shake a stick at. And they say sharks go into feeding frenzies. OK, the one is more like pirhannas. (Anyone got a Mossberg (sp?) real cheap?) (super soaker with ammonia?)

http://www.netside.com/~lcoble/buckshot/index.htm

(I need it to train the parrot to go "kachunk".)

-- tree (thetrees@bigfoot.com), December 11, 1999.

Thanks for all these stories and tips. This is something I never imagined either. I just had a neighbor move in with a wolf too. They're about 4 blocks away, and they let the wolf run loose in the front yard today as they unpacked the truck. I live in the 'burb, vintage WWII 3bdrm ranchers, so that wolf could get here in no time flat. My chain link is only 4 feet high, and I've got 2 goldens (mom Daisy is 7 years, son Blue is 9 months) so they will not go out unattended as things heat up here... I've been concerned of neighbors thinking that my dogs look like their dinner, but now I need to realize that when TSHTF then pacts could smell my dog's "business", and so I need to assume everytime I/we go out that they have infultrated the perimeter, until I have proven otherwise. Maybe I can get materials to rig a more secure run for my dogs off the side door.

This is the first I've heard of the cyotes and cats on the East; this is really fascinating. Who knows why the cyotes are here; nothin' would surprise me though Crybaby. And they hop trains! So I need to keep in mind how easily they can adjust to man-made surroundings, and turn them to their advantage. Now we do get a bear cub wandering into towns here in VA from time to time, coons, that's about it for now.

-- Hokie (nn@va.com), December 11, 1999.

Post of Tree's url to that Trapper I heard on the radio:

Wild Dogs Pose Post-TEOTWAWKI Danger

I was in a chat room tonight and we were discussing dogs. I said "If TEOTWAWKI (the end of the world as we know it) happens, then 100 millions dog will be a major problem." Then we got to talking about the Great Depression and how the land was almost hunted dry.

First, before we accept that as fact, here was the argument. One person stated that when the great depression happened there was half the population, then there is now. So, if a great world collapse was to happen today, his premise was there wouldn't be anything left in the forest. I have to disagree. My biggest point was during the G.D., 40 percent of the population came from farms, most knew how to hunt and a fair percentage knew how to trap. Then it makes senses that the game would disappear. But even then, there were a percentage of trappers all over this country that fed their families and saved their farms with the fur money. See the value of trapping?

My premise is we have 90 percent of the U.S. population in the cities. Most are soft and would rather steal what you have then work at hunting or trapping. I believe most will never get out of the cities and will die in a hail of gunfire, rioting and fires. When all this is going on, they will let their pets go free, thinking at least they can survive on their own. This is why at 4:00 am I'm writing this article. I could not sleep. I know city people will do this and we will have 100 million dogs and 80 million cats released to go wild.

Now what I have to say next is not for the weak hearted, if for any reason you have a weak stomach or can't handle a cold hard reality check, then go back to my home page and choose another article.

OK, for those that are still with me, these animals will be a major problem and must be dealt with. Period. This isn't Disney, where you can talk to the poor dog and cat and the world is all fuzzy and warm. This is reality. If you own animals never, ever, EVER, release them to go wild. If you don't have the stomach for putting them down, have someone else do it. If you have to put dog food away at your camp, cache, whatever, great. I think a dog is invaluable then. A cat in the wild in this crisis is your greatest enemy. One study in Wisconsin found that the best predator against small game was the house cat. The common house cat killed more small game then all other predators in the study.

Now the reason I'm up this late and can't sleep is the dogs. I understand pack mentality and a pack of dogs scares me more then a pack of wolves. I have been studying the woods and wildlife my whole life. This is how the dogs will form packs, an alpha male will take control of the pack with a beta male as second in command, the packs will range from 6 to 100 dogs depending on the food supply.

This scenario, I read years ago of a pack like this had 45 dogs and this was how they attacked people. The alpha picked a friendly looking female like a collie. This is the decoy dog. As you are walking in the woods, the collie approaches and draws your attention, as the packs circle you for the kill. When the pack sneaks up to striking distance, they will attack and so will the decoy. I'm talking lighting fast 45 dogs coming at you. How many rounds does your clip have?

You see when the riots and the death in the city is happening the dogs will learn to fed on the bodies then in turn will acquire the taste for humans. Now you have a pack of wild dogs who consider you and your loved ones as food. They have no fear of man and will kill you to insure their own survival. Now, I'm not trying to scare you and sell fear. I am telling you that this will happen if the chaos of TEOTWAWKI occurs. You'll have to learn to kill dogs and cats on sight. Period. This is not an option.

If you want to insure your own survival, then listen to me. This is no game. If you think I'm just stating this to sell you trapping equipment then click off this article and go take a poll of the people you know, ask the following question, "What would you do with your dog and cat if you lost your job and could not afford to fed them?" I have lived in the country most of my life and I have had to deal with these animals that people let go on their own.

I have talked to the people who have told me that they still believe their Ralphy boy is probably still out there hunting with the best of the coyotes. Dreamy like and with pride in there voice! Or I know my cat is still alive because he was the best hunter in the neighborhood, he killed more birds then any other cat!

I'm not selling anything but reality! I'll tell you another dog story that happened to me. I was trapping on this farm years ago and I caught a black mangy, scaly looking black lab mixed mongrel. I have caught lots of dogs over the years and I can let most go with out a problem, unharmed. Anyway, I approached this dog and started talking to him and slowly moving closer. The dog stood up, wagged his tail and appeared happy to see me. When this happens, 99% percent of the time I can release the dog and place him in my truck to take to the farmhouse and explain what happened. Most dogs are fine and have a sore foot for a couple of days, then they're back to normal. Not this dog he lured me in with his friendly attitude until he thought I was in striking distance, then turned into attack mode. Lucky, I was prepared for the reaction and quickly jumped back. I never will forget that lighting fast change and the snarling teeth just missing my hand. The dog misjudged his strike range, if I had been a little closer this would be a different story.

So I walk back to truck truck, found the farmer and told him I caught his dog. The farmer says I don't own a dog and what color is it, because some black mongrel attacked his wife yesterday. To make long story short, the dog was turned over to the humane department and tested positive for rabies. Now this was back in the early eighties when a lot of people were getting laid-off. People were letting their dogs go in the farmers' fields and without proper care, and the dogs picked up all kinds of diseases. Someone has to deal with these dogs. There is no such thing as a dog or cat that is better off let go to fend for themselves. I have seen them all and most of the time you would never recognize them after 6 months on there own.

If a TEOTWAWKI does happen then someone in your group preferably everyone should trap, hunt and kill every dog and cat that has gone wild in your area. Period! I'm writing this early in the morning because I couldn't sleep at the thought of that many wild dogs and cats free in America.

The best defense to protect your garden and livestock or game animals would be snares. I would have 10 dozens coyote grade snares and enough heavy wire to set all of them at once.

Here is another theory: Starving people will kill the dogs for food. I say sure some will become food, but the average household that has guns has less then 50 rounds, although most survivalists will have much more. So, I think after the first week most people will be out of ammo. Then the packs will rule.

Let me know what you think, am I way off base? I just keep thinking of all the people in the cities and their "My dogs are my children" attitude. Dog and cat food is a huge business. I mean, they have pet psychiatrist for Christ sakes. Think about all the movies and shows like 911 where people risk their lives to save animals. I'm not saying that this is wrong, all I'm pointing out is people's attitude toward pets, and I guarantee they will let them go to fend for themselves when the food runs out. Make sure you are ready to face this threat.

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More on Dogs

More on Dogs and Predators

I was just thinking that I didn't fully explain the dog issue. Especially the Alpha male, the Beta male and how the pecking order works. The meanest, toughest, and most willing to draw blood will be the Alpha. He more or less runs the pack through fear and intimidation. The Beta male is the second strongest. He may challenge the Alpha male, but as soon as he starts to lose he will back off. The Beta is just as dangerous as the Alpha and his whole purpose in life is waiting for the day he can run the pack. So the Alpha has a Judas in his mist, if in a fight with a new dog that tries to take the pack over, the Beta will watch this fight intently. Even if the Alpha drives off or wins the fight if he is serious hurt the Beta may try to finish him off for control of the pack. Why is this important? This is one piece of vital information I forgot to tell you. If wild dogs attack you, the two most important dogs to kill are the Alpha and the Beta.

You see, the Beta is waiting for his turn to run the pack. So if you shoot the Alpha, the Beta might just call off the attack just so he can run the pack. That doesn't mean you are out of trouble. All that means is there is a new leader and next time they will try something different. If TEOTWAWKI does happen, then the dog packs will find you, I guarantee it. This is how I will try to explain this. The best place to trap coyotes is a running full time farm. The largest farm in the area is always the best place to trap. Now stop and think about why? Okay, let me rephrase the question. The best place to trap coyotes in any county is the largest livestock farm. Why? If you all thought about it you would come up with the smell of food.

You see all dogs are from the wild, in their past they are all cousins to fox, coyotes, and wolves. They mostly hunt with their nose. So the farm with the most livestock that has calves, cows, chickens, sheep, whatever the farmer is raising. Some die off during the year, the farmer takes the carcasses to the back 40 and lets the predators clean up. The predators were out there the whole time coming by checking out the place looking for an easy meal. Do you see my point?

That is why the dogs will find you. Maybe not at first, but they will find you. They will smell your camp, cooking, cleaning game, livestock, etc. They will come. I have studied predators. I have tracked them for miles in the snow just to learn how they cross the country, how they hunt, how they think, how they react to man, etc. This has taught me a great deal. In the winter, we have a great deal of snow and this is hard for the predators. When a deer dies off, predators from miles away come to feast on him. After the body gets torn up, the predator birds will be there and every predator will get its share. I have come up on these sites. Which way do the predators first approach the kill, do you think.? The down wind side. There is an advanced predator trapping lesson here, if you are paying attention.

This also shows on any trapping where you are using lures, the importance of the wind. If you are trapping a river and the wind is blowing across into your face, then you are setting on the wrong side. Any animal that you hope to lure to your set must first smell it. This sounds so obvious, but it takes a mental note in your head to keep this in mind. Now, do you start to see how the packs will find you?

This is how I plan on dealing with this problem, 100 snares will guard my place. 100 snares sounds like a great deal of work, but it really isn't, this could be done in one day. Even a novice can do it in three days, tops. Everyone with me that carries a weapon will kill every dog on sight. This problem has me upset, it is something I should have thought of years ago. I understand nature and why a pack of hungry wolves doesn't scare me like a pack of wild dogs, is quite simply that the wolves are taught to fear man.

I will try to explain this in detail, but the best way is through actual events. Here in Michigan back in the 50's, they outlawed bear hunting, and a few years after the bears where not hunted, this took place:

A family is living in the woods. Dad goes off to work on a nice spring day, so mom has her baby on the front porch while she is inside cleaning. The baby was around 18 months old and was just enjoying the sun, when a black bear come up and grabbed the child. The baby started screaming. The mother's instinct took over and she did one of the bravest things I have ever heard off! Armed with a broom, the mother started beating on the bear to make it drop the child. The bear was annoyed and simply ran off into the woods with the child. Mom was immediately on the phone, and before long, the whole town was out there to search for the child.

Luckily there was a pack of trained bear hounds in the area and soon the trail was found. It wasn't long before they found what was left of the child and the bear was ran down and shot. This whole incident happened because the Department of Natural Resources didn't understand nature. The rule is quite simple; you are either a predator or prey. Which do you want to be?

You need more examples? OK.

Out in the western states the animal rights groups would pour all their resources into one state at a time, until several states outlawed mountain lion hunting. Now, remember the rule, predator or prey! I can't remember the exact numbers, but every state that outlawed mountain lion hunting has had the highest mountain lion attack's ever recorded. The mountain lion has no reason to fear man, so we become prey. Especially small children! You see, the animal rights people would rather see your child attacked and mauled then allow hunting. This cheapens human life.

One more example: Arizona recently outlawed trapping. When this happened, I wrote the rule (predator or prey) and stated that the coyotes would start attacking children within five years. I was wrong, it only took two years. In Phoenix last summer two children out playing where attacked and mauled by coyotes, luckily they survived the attack. The animal rights people have an agenda that is in goose step with the NWO. They are trying to ban all of us from hunting, trapping, fishing and, worst of all, even walking in the woods.

I got a little off track, but my whole point was to show how nature works. Dogs and man are part of nature, and the rule always applies. God forbid, if TEOTWAWKI does happen, then the rule will apply even more because dogs have no fear of man to begin with and man does not consider dogs as a threat. You will either establish that you are the top predator of your area, or you will be prey.

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Back to Buckshot's home page

-- Hokie (nn@va.com), December 11, 1999.

Western NY, 1970's. My wife was given permission to cary her rifle to and from school (ON THE BUS) simply because she and her sibs had a 1/2 mile walk to the bus stop, and there were wild/feral dogs in the area. At the time, it was (may still be) illegal to kill a dog UNLESS it was RUNNING a DEER. Or attacking a person. She had to use the gun more than once. And she was good enough that the .22 Mosberg was enough.

The Game Emforcement folk never questioned the cause for the dead dog.

Chuck

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), December 11, 1999.

Chuck,

Your lucky to have a good shot in your camp!!!

It's hard to imagine she carried a gun, given nail clippers will get a kid suspended these days, go figure...

-- Hokie (nn@va.com), December 11, 1999.

As I have a deep love and respect for *all* dogs, I'm saddened by this thread. If we're talking "worst case", dog packs may initially be a problem but it won't be too long before they're hunted as a food source (and become a fearful, timid rarity).

Flame away if you must, but if it came down to just me and my German Shepherd, I'd give her my last ration.

-- Choirboy (choirboy@hellzchoir.edu), December 11, 1999.

We live in NW Connecticut surrounded by thousands of landtrusted acres. Our next door neighbor has 600 acres bounded by one road. At night we can hear the pack howling away. After getting use to seeing bobcats, my neighbor really gave us a scare: a cougar was spotted in the area, although the State denies such sightings as even possible. Needless to say, my cat Shlomo will be staying inside until we need to eat him.

-- Tish (steverromano@eaton.com), December 11, 1999.

Choirboy,

You aren't alone on that count; I'm already thinking up rice recipes for my dogs when their 300 pounds of meal runs out. I haven't given my meals that kind of consideration...

Check out the other dog stories here, they help a lot with the fundamental predator/prey mindset upon which this strat is based. There is even a story there from Zog when he got attacked by a pack of 3 dogs. Just think: If you prep on this then you will be better able to protect your doggie who is totally oblivious to what is about to happen.

http://www.netside.com/~lcoble/buckshot/index.htm

-- Hokie (nn@va.com), December 11, 1999.

LOL Tish! Yep, my roommate will suffer the same fate as Shloma if he doesn't stop with the wise cracks about my preps, dag-nabbit! (j/k)

-- Hokie (nn@va.com), December 11, 1999.

Yes.... just waking up, the dog jumped off our bed to come be with me while I wake up. Tough subject but real. Have lived in less populated areas most of my life and had a personal experience that taught me to respect this issue.

We raised beef cattle when I was a kid and one night a cow attempted to deliver her calf and was attacked by feral dogs (or unwatched "pets"/watchdogs). They chewed the calf's face and the cow's vagina and they both died. That was when I learned what a "varmint rifle" was really for. I would sit with my stepdad in the truck watching and waiting for the pack that did this. We took out a couple but that was all. I will never forget that poor cow. This wasn't really out in the "boondocks", only about 1 hour from Sacramento or 30 minutes for Chico State University, California. Be careful.

-- Kristi (securxsys@cs.com), December 11, 1999.

I worked in a large urban National Park/Monument for several years located in a downtown area. With large acreage and well paved walking areas this became a favorite jogging/running area for those living downtown or wanting to run before work. The southern area butted up to an old railroad/warehouse district. On more than one occasion we had feral dog packs surround early morning joggers on the southern end of the park.

Just a few years ago a feral dog pack threatened children walking to a nearby Catholic school in my neighborhood. This was in a highly dense urban area.

Feral dog packs in urban areas is a problem now in some places. It will definitely be a problem if people release their pets because they are unable to care for them due to financial constraints. Encourage anyone you know to put the dog down rather than release it. That is the "humane" thing to do.

Anything less could creat a threat to public safety.

The life you save my be your own.

-- former park ranger (nothere@don'temailme.com), December 11, 1999.

the dog you eat may be your own

-- apokoliptik (apokoliptik@yahoo.com), December 11, 1999.

As usual, the different conversations here are incredible, my poor little cat Hilliary doesn't have a clue, fortunately for her I've got around 200 lbs. of meow mix stored, and she only weighs around 3 or 4 pounds, declawed (would never let her fend for herself, should we be around long enough for her food to runout. I'd be forced to put her out her misery first, even though I know that misery is in her future, after all, I love her) I transgress, my point here is that I think you are right, people will take care of "number one" as best they can, they sure as heck haven't provided for theirs (and obviously, their families) needs, there's not a chance in heck, they are thinking about Fido, Spot, Muffy, Felix or the rest of the pets they may have. A mass abandonment of household pets is pretty much inevitable. Damn the PR people, If only truth was required.

It is definitely going to get interesting (and very unhappy) in the near future, may we all survive to share knowledge gained with our childrens children. Bye the way, It's my 45th birthday today and I'm a proud grandfather of 5. Needless to say, my heart to heart talks with my two daughters about pre-marital sex were ignored, love the grankids just the same anyway. (I also love my daughters immensely too) OK, Ok, somewhat disfunctional family, should have had more influence, that's what I get for living a couple of states away from them.

Anyway, back on the topic at hand, I think (always had great dogs growing up) that you have hit on a topic that almost knowone really pays attention to, DOGS are smart, I could "talk" to mine with hand signals, whistles, and general voice commands. We got along great, they're smart animals, that being the key word, animals, when they have to fend for themselves and live off the land "so to speak" they are going to be something to be dealt with. I'm not looking forward to this at all.

-- Michael (michaelteever@buffalo.com), December 11, 1999.

I've seen coyotes in the village where we used to live, early in the morning. I'm talking upstate New York. No doubt 'bout what they were 'cause the Ranger at the nearest park confirmed the possibility. Coydog packs are common out in the woods, the hunter types always have stories to tell.

What kind of dog would you recommend for defense of a small farm? We have an Elkhound who really could take down an elk if he wanted to, but he'd be no match for a pack. Is it too late to get another dog or two?

-- Arewyn (isitthatlate@lready.com), December 11, 1999.

I agree completely that feral dogs will be a huge problem if Y2K is really serious (goes over a 7). Dog owners can in many or most cases definitely be expected to throw Fido out of the house rather than put him down when they have no food for him. Only people have IMO the potential to be bigger threats to physical safety than feral dogs in TEOTWAKI. In many rural areas, feral dogs may be the bigger threat.

www.y2ksafeminnesota.com

-- MinnesotaSmith (y2ksafeminnesota@hotmail.com), December 11, 1999.

I've said it before several times and I'll say it again here. During my military career I was trained as part of a disaster recovery team (read: post nuclear attack recovery). One of the issues covered was the threat of feral dogs.

The concern was that packs of feral dogs scrounging around in rubble would certainly start feeding on human remains. And once they started associating human with being food, they would start hunting humans.

The solution was very blunt and simple. As a recovery team went into an area they were to shoot any dog they saw loose, in a pack or not. I do believe that this was a "WWII lesson learned".

This easily translates into what many farmers and ranchers do today and what should be prepared for by all of us in a post-Y2K catastrophy environment: SHOOT ANY LOOSE-RUNNING UNKNOWN DOG ON SIGHT.

It's harsh, but when it's human lives and domestic animals endangered by wild dogs the results of inaction are equally as harsh.

WW

-- Wildweasel (vtmldm@epix.net), December 11, 1999.

Helped a friend who raised sheep a few years back. His herd had been attacked by a pack of wild dogs on repeated occasions so we decided to lay in wait for them one night using some safely penned in sheep as bait. They came and we shot most of the dogs.

Many of them had collars so they could have been lost or dumped; I suspect the latter. I can tell you that watching those dogs I was very glad I had my HK in hand with a couple full 20 round clips. It was pretty scary; it doesn't take too much imagination to see them going after a child or single adult.

-- Don Kulha (dkulha@vom.com), December 11, 1999.

Having been raised in an area of the country where feral (and unwatched pet) dog packs were a perennial problem for local farmers/ranchers, I know that the potential for a problem exists especially in suburban and rural areas around large cities in areas with no other large predators remaining.

Having said that though, I think if it comes down to a real collapse of all services, delivery of goods etc, I believe that the pet dog will be an endangered species especially in a TEOTWAWKI scenario in hard hit urban areas. I am positive that those dogs would be eaten by people first In my area if they escaped a dinner plate, wolves, bears or other predators would get them before most of them had a chance to form a viable pack.

Right now the urban dog pack can survive because no one is much interested (on a personal basis) in eliminating these animals for whatever reason. If people are starving or even very hungry, firearms or not, they will firure out a way to cut one or two of those dogs out of the pack and have it for dinner. Think of that motivation, times the many thousands of people with that same motivation in urban settings. Those dog packs would be hunted by packs of humans. They would be history. I think suburbia and adjacent rural settings could still have a problem, starvation notwithstanding.

This is true in the worst of scenarios only. If people have only enough food for themselves but not enough to want to feed or eat pet animals, then Katie bar the door. I will feel very grateful to live in a city that has a large Asian population whose's traditional foods include dog.

As far as I am concerned, I will feed my very sweet but protective 12 year old dog from my personal rations to the last crumb if I must, though I have a fair sized reserve of dog food and things would be getting bad if it came down to that. She and I have a contract that is like my marriage vows in my opinion and she's part of our family. I would no sooner let her starve or cut her loose than any of my family members. Besides, I think that she's a very important first line of defense and earns her keep by practically tearing the front door off the hinges when folks she doesn't know very well come near the house. (The postman calls her "killer".)

No one can predict what will happen. I don't think it will be all that bad in the USA (a 3-5, mostly economic repercussions in scattered locales and industries on slow simmer, but I've hedged my bets and prepared for a 6 or 7). If it is bad, (8+) who can accurately predict how people will react. I think a range of reactions are possible (from chaos and anarchy, to order and community cooperation, to police state) and are likely, depending upon the circumstances and area of the country/world. This thread is less about dogs/cats and more about the actions/reactions of people on a wide scale and on an individual basis. I believe we should be reasonably informed and prepared, react appropriately to the situation as it develops and leave the worrying to God and our mothers. Interesting thread.

-- Ramp Rat (aviation_R_us@anchorage.ak), December 11, 1999.

There are some households which will not have firearms for various reasons. Perhaps a machete might be a useful line of defense for them? You don't want to get too close. Any tips on machete use at close quarters?

Some of you city dwellers may find your dogs of use (not to mention them being family members!)in the event of a severe breakdown. What are your contingency plans for your dog's elimination needs if it looks very clear that it is far safer to hide indoors for a while?

-- Firemouse (firemouse@fcmail.com), December 11, 1999.

I have put away more feed for my animals than I have for the humans. One ton of feed for my goats (plus hay), 1/2 ton of specialized feed for the horses, 500 lbs for the chickens and about the same for the dogs. 400 lbs for the cats. Cats are declawed and never outside. I worry about the feral dogs cruising the neighborhood now. What will it be when my Joe Six-pack neighbors up the road get to where they can't feed their 8 coon hounds (and the hounds are pretty big). I have to sleep nights with one ear tuned to the nocturnal noises from the goat pastures. I just bought a nightvision scope from Sams (199.95) and am thrilled with it's performance. No, it's not a Starlight like I used to use but it sure meets my needs. I was able to isolate the cause of a herd alarm last night, eliminate the problem as one of no consequence to the herd and go back to sleep.....all without putting on my shoes and coat. LOVELY!!

I've noticed people nattering away about the length of time that it would take for 'city' dogs to form a feral pack. I was involved in a situation some time ago in a civilized (?) portion of the world where the infrastructure broke down overnight because of political turmoil. The dang dogs were packing within two days! If y2k is an 8 and the power goes, I sure don't want to be in a city. "Johnney, we have to go down to the shelters. We have no heat, lights or water. Oh, make sure you put the dog outside. I don't want to clean up after him when this is over".

-- Lobo (atthelair@yahoo.com), December 12, 1999.

Bad juju,baby.Just one more good reason to buy a shotgun.The idea of Diane Squire fighting a feral dog pack with a machete would have predictable consequenses.Guns,gotta have 'em

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), December 12, 1999.

Lobo, thanks for that 2-day information on dog pack formation. Scary.

zoobie, if you are implying Diane and I are the same person , we're not -- 3000 miles separates us. But if so, I'll take it as a compliment. But at least now we know that it is better to smite both the alpha and the beta pollies in the feral polly packs when they come to our doors... ;)

-- Firemouse (firemouse@fcmail.com), December 12, 1999.