This is in response, in part, to LadyLogic's post, but without the inflammatory remarks. When I first GI in 1997, the example that made me a "doomer" was one I had been using in another arena - "When you buy that loaf of bread, you're paying over 400 taxes". I had done an analysis on tha various steps in the productive chain to get that loaf of bread to your house, and believe me it's much, much more than electric power, or oil, or whatever. If you think the number 400 is too high, then do the analysis - for example how many steps (and industries) does it take just to produce the packaging, or the stainless steel for the baker's racks, or the detergent to mop the floors to keep the health department happy. I'm sure that it's higher than 400 because I probably forgot some.

The point here is that analyzing one commodity, or service, in isolation will tend to give a rosy picture because with a relatively isolated problem it's not hard to think of workarounds or other McGuyver tricks to "save the day". In the bread example, think "hybrid seeds", think "spare parts" for tractors, trucks, combines, railroads, mills, etc. Over the last few decades we have achieved unimaginable levels of efficiency through the use of the computer. How much has to break before it comes crashing down around us? IMO, less than one percent.

You can paint a bad scenario, or a hopeful one, but it will be a very different world, I can guarantee that. I just hope that the kid at McDonald's, the kid that can't read his diploma and couldn't figure out my change if his life depended on it, will become motivated to learn to read and help fix the world, instead of the other obvious alternative.

May all your preps be adequate - we'll build a new world together, God willing.

-- ivan (ivan1776@ivnet.net), December 09, 1999

Answers

great post...thanks.

-- joe (joe@adeveloper.net), December 09, 1999.

I hear that LadyLogic gets downright rowdy in chat rooms. Gawd, I wish I had javascript capability on my WEB-TV so that I could see for myself!!!

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), December 09, 1999.

Ivan:

Good post, you've got a good idea of interconnectedness and the danger of the domino effect.

It's my belief that THE WORLD AS WE KNOW IT was never meant to survive. Almighty God is still King and Jesus Christ is Lord. The world as we know it is a result of the enemy's "delaying tactics" to destroy as many people as he can before the return of Jesus.

The good news is, God has already overcome the world. We are to trust Him absolutely, obey Him unconditionally, and accept wholeheartedly Jesus' gift of eternal life, bought by His death on the cross and resurrection 3 days later!

Since God has already won, and asks us to believe in Him for salvation, the real battleground is in the human mind--our perceptions. What we (individually) believe will ultimately affect our destiny.

One step further: any evil actions are the result of people believeing lies--from the father of lies. If this is true, then you must alter your y2k strategy to include forgiving all those who do you wrong, whether deliberate or not, because they are fools, and do not understand what they are doing--they are listening to lies.

Jesus, our personal example for our lives, said on the cross for the Father to forgive them, for they know not what they do.

FWIW.

-- (Kurt.Borzel@gov.bc.ca), December 09, 1999.

It's worth a lot, Kurt...

-- Patrick (pmchenry@gradall.com), December 10, 1999.

Stuff it, Kurt!

-- fedup (stuffit@fedup.com), December 10, 1999.

Kurt, it may be Christian to forgive. I guess I must be an agnostic.....cause I don't think I could ever forgive TPTB if it's as bad as I fear. I forgave them what they did to me in the past. Never again will I turn the other cheek. Docile is for cows. I am not a militant but I do refuse to accept what others consider the inevitable. Anything short of violent rebellion is a valid technique (but you gotta play within the rules).

-- Lobo (atthelair@yahoo.com), December 10, 1999.

fedup:

Since you responded I will take the opportunity to introduce you to Jesus Christ! He is the son of Almighty God and He loves you very much. The Bible says, and the proof of it is everywhere, that God loved us so much (even when we do evil things) that He sent His only begotten Son to die for us, that whosoever should believe in Him (Jesus) shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

Your life is temporary. God says that, in the end, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL CONFESS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS LORD. That means you and me, brother.

Here is my point: God is bigger than you, and can handle your skepticism. If you sincerely doubt His existence, call out to Him and see if He responds! This may, or may not, be the last time someone passes on the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ to you.

Put it to the test, sir. Don't waste it. Be sincere in your search and you will find that God is there, that God loves you more than you'll ever understand, and that you cannot earn salvation: IT'S A GIFT FEDUP.

"if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved: for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness (justification, if you will), and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation (eternal life and salvation from damnation)."

--Romans 10:9-10

Think well on that sir.

-- (Kurt.Borzel@gems8.gov.bc.ca), December 10, 1999.

 This is NOT a forum for continued religious rantings (occasional on-topic discussions are permitted). Posters abusing this guideline will be asked to cease and desist, and/or their ISP provider will be contacted with a complaint notice.

-- Sheri (wncy2k@nccn.net), December 10, 1999.

You are right. I had forgotten.

Thank you for the warning.

-- (Kurt.Borzel@gems8.gov.bc.ca), December 10, 1999.

Kurt:The only reason Governments have allowed religions is because it is a tranquilizer for the believers.They can believe that no matter how miserable life can be,when they die,they will go to heaven.It's the only thing that can keep the herds in line.If they thought for one minute that it was all a lie,they would rise up and kick ass.If Religion gives you peace of mind,great.Just don't preach and quote scriptures to us.

-- Dan Newsome (BOONSTAR1@webnet.tv), December 10, 1999.

Hey Lobo,

From another Agnostic.... :-) Anything short of violent rebellion is a valid technique (but you gotta play within the rules).

It ain't a game of Chess :-)

-- CT (ct@no.yr), December 10, 1999.

CT....I didn't say who MADE the rules.

-- Lobo (atthelair@yahoo.com), December 10, 1999.

Look, Sheri, time is getting kind of short, I don't think that being a rule stickler as we head into what may be very trying times is the most humane course. Kurt was genuinely sharing something that he believes to be relevant. Surely, in view of what lies just around the corner, we can be a bit more tolerant??

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), December 10, 1999.

They didn't just roll over on their backs in the Old Testament. I remember the story of Simpson. Simpson took the jawbone of a donkey and whipped the ass off of 10,000 Philadelphians. My kind of guy!

Will ladylogic return? Tune in tomorrow for the ongoing saga of the modern day "Perils of Pauline". :-)

My posting is OT but I'm a big ol' eight and prepped for it!

21 days and 23 hours till SHOWTIME!

-- justcommonsense (gentlemanlogic@blahblah.ed), December 10, 1999.

Not if you keep tracking mud on the carpet, KOS!

-- Lobo (atthelair@yahoo.com), December 10, 1999.

Lobo,

No you didn't, but I never thought there were rules in a knife fight, or a gun fight. " It's not a game of "Sorry"" No one makes the rules

Ct@

-- CT (ct@no.yr), December 10, 1999.

The world will end as you know it. You will have to admit that it is not so bad, or go ahead and shoot yourself.

-- for real (for@real.com), December 10, 1999.

for Real.... have you thought of a lobotomy?

-- CT (ct@no.yr), December 10, 1999.

Kurt is right

All of you should heed what Kurt has said. Do you really believe that your efforts are going to save you. I have prepared for almost 2 years at great exspense and sacrifice. But I could lose it all in an instance if someone else wanted my stuff bad enough. You cannot prepare for everything. That is why you need Jesus Christ. The Bible say that in the last days mens hearts would fail in the face of fear. You could drop dead from a heart attack because of fear. It will be far worst then you can imagine.

-- jack baumgarten (mannajack@msn.com), December 10, 1999.

Returning to the original post...... this supports my own uninformed idea of what it may be like, which is a severe diminution of our previous lifestyles and the economic variety and choices we had. We will still have bread, with fewer steps in the process, not as much, and not as fancy as we used to.

The last time a lot of steps were knocked out was the Depression.

-- Forrest Covington (theforrest@mindspring.com), December 10, 1999.

Yo Lobo...no violent rebellion? I guess you'd like to be kissin King George's rosy rump still? We have a Constitution that a Lot of brave men died for. It's still worth dying for, and we may well have to for our childrens' futures. Yo Ivan...right on. No one seems to understand, or most seem to forget...it's all intertwined. Bear arms, or wear chains. Peace to you.

-- Hoping (Forthebest@disneyland.com), December 10, 1999.

For justcommonsense...if you are referring to Homer...Bart would kick his ass.

-- tryingtofigure (itallout@reddog.com), December 10, 1999.

Hey Kurt, don't you think all the other religions that have come and gone thought they were THE ONE? compared to mans time on earth, Christ is just a new kid on the block. I am sure everything you are saying was said in Rome and Babylon Egypt and China. Everything mentioned in the Bible takes place within 1000 miles of the "Holy land". The earth is a much bigger place and humanity has been around a lot longer than 6000 years.

When two armies are going into battle and both are Christian and both are screaming "God is on our side" something is wrong.

Quoting my main man, Robert Heinlein, in "Stranger in a Strange Land"

"Come Judgement day, if they hold it, it may turn out that Mumbo Jumbo the god of the Congo was big boss after all."

-- Agnostic (non-believer@nogod.com), December 10, 1999.

Marx or Lenin or one of them other commies said "Religion is the opiate of the masses." Most people looked at the USSR and saw correctly that the masses were still religious. They figured INCORRECTLY that the commies tried to get rid of religion and failed. WRONG! The Party members were (supposed to be) atheists, but they let the masses keep their religion (even though they did harass religious leaders who butted into secular matters).

Why -- because religion IS the opiate of the masses.

Dan Newsome nailed it: "The only reason Governments have allowed religions is because it is a tranquilizer for the believers. They can believe that no matter how miserable life can be, when they die, they will go to heaven. It's the only thing that can keep the herds in line. If they thought for one minute that it was all a lie, they would rise up and kick ass."

Don't demonstrate what a stupid sheep you are by quoting bible crap. The commies were right about religion. And wrong about everything else.

-- A (A@AisA.com), December 10, 1999.

This friggin thread has gone straight to hell. Loved the "Philadelphians", though.

-- hocus pocus (let's get@some.focus), December 10, 1999.

Hmm ...

This is not a secular point of view and it is not an individual critique directed at anyone, but since we are on a certain subject ...

I find it hard to deal, or even understand, with those I have come across who profess a certain religion and talk gleefully about picking off those who would try to take away their preps. This just doesn't fit the Founder of the religion. I was under the impression that deep, profound faith takes one above this world and that death, in that respect (and for the faithful) leads to a paradise in Heaven.

I am a bit concerned about those who might want to foster a Spanish Inquisition rerun on the world, rather than a new Heaven and a new Earth. Here is hoping that any lapse in civilization won't plunge us into a new Dark Age created by people who don't seem focus on or even comprehend certain messages by certain Founders of certain creeds.

The fire, brimstone, damnation, intolerence, and such leaves so little room for love, compassion, charity, humility, etc. I hear them speak of religious things, but in their eyes I see horror upon horror ready to be made real. I hear of their stores of weapons and knowledge of instruments of death. I hear nothing about giving shoes when hats and cloaks are asked for. I cannot see their other cheek, for it is well protected and very hidden. Some tell me that the virtues I mentioned are not the focus of the Message or the outcome of Good News.

What I am most afraid of is that the basest amongst us will continue to wear their robes of a pious deceit for others ... speaking the biblical words, condemning us sinners, yet possessing hearts as black as pitch and nurturing a Stygean fire within that yearns to torture and consume the innocent. I see them filled with fear and anger that they push behind the doctrine. Looking not in at the plank of wood in their eyes but only the mote in everyone elses that they detest(for not believing) unto death. I fear that once again a certain form of self-rightousness, justified by words from a book alone and lacking Spirit, will once again bring the crushing of children's knees in stocks, the burning of those who don't fit in, the slow peeling off of the skin of men, women and children in order to save their souls as a form of purgation. This is not fiction, it is history.

I think the movie, Handmaiden's Tale, covers that contingency and hints at some of my fears. I can, and have, done without the luxeries and even many of the necessities of life. I don't look forward to want and depravations, but I know they can be dealt with and overcome. I am VERY concerned about the mindset of some of the devout religious and I fear some of them far more than the Creator's wrath. I fear the power that they, in their words, hunger for over others in the name of a Higher Power. I feel sad when I hear glee expressed, rather than profound sadness and hope, for those who they say will go to hell. Maybe the first will be last and the last will be first in this coming epoch, and justice in that light will be served. Maybe the Founder will truely not KNOW some of them who are so sure about their outcome, rather than in a constant state of hope for their salavation and in prayer for those who may not make it.

I must take this opportunity to ask that those who can muster up the ears to hear, hear that. If they can muster up the eyes to see, see that. Please. There is already enough hell on earth for so many. There may be more coming. Today's evil is very sufficant. We could trust that tomorrow's (Eternity's) is not as much a concern while we tarry here. To alleviate the suffering, be of good well towards all, put the burdon of self aside, feed the hungry, and console they who suffer ... that is the work of the Master. And judgement? Well we know who claimed ownership to it, don't we? That could be another weight off our shoulders, if we wouldn't be so atattched to it and cling so tightly to exteriorization of our own darkness and evils. That's the sire of persecution and a sure way to go the opposite direction you think you may ... or are we not known by our works?

Well, that's how I have come to understand it ... I guess you have to pay attention to what was said and "be wise as serpents" in order to pass trough the eye of the needle. Ingorance does not seem to be a good excuse anymore.

May you all have Peace that is beyond understanding. Peace Profound.

"No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!" Monty Python

-- Very Old Fool (Life,Light,Love@rc.com), December 10, 1999.

"Blasphemous is not he who scorns the gods of the masses, but he who imputes the ideas of the masses to the gods." (Epicurus)

-- Risteard Mac Thomais (uachtaran@ireland.com), December 10, 1999.

ivan,

In direct response to your post about the loaf of bread:

There's a great essay, along these lines, by Leonard Read, called "I, Pencil." Somepne posted a link to it at the end of my thread that starts, "Wall St. Journal..." that is now near the bottom of the current thread list.

-- eve (123@4567.com), December 10, 1999.

blah blah blah god blah blah blah
too damn STOOPID to think for themselves.

-- holy moly (what@ever.com), December 10, 1999.

A "Don't demonstrate what a stupid sheep you are by quoting bible crap. The commies were right about religion. And wrong about everything else."

I believe in the Bible and what it stands for even though I don't regularly go to church. You can say what you want, it doesn't hurt us. You're only destroying your own soul. BTW is your real name Janet RENO? You sound just like him.

As far as being a stupid sheep, that's what we WANT you to think.

Luke 22:36 He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.

-- Wolf (inLambs@clothing.God), December 10, 1999.

Wolf,

First I would choose a better name than Wolf, if you're going to preach Christianianity. Wolves are not good in Bible parlance!

And stop sending everyone to hell. If you are going to preach.

You said..."I believe in the Bible and what it stands for even though I don't regularly go to church. You can say what you want, it doesn't hurt us. You're only destroying your own soul. BTW is your real name Janet RENO? You sound just like him.

If that is true tell us the difference between Israel and Judah. A hint...There are twelve sons of Israel. Two were not to become nations. Start in Gen. 48-49.

What "religion" was Israel prophesied to accept? Judeo-Christian, Christian, or Judaism?

Now go read the Bible and send me an email and I will grade you.

Mark...A Christian kicked out of 3 churches, Judeo-Christian, because they cannot bare the truth.

-- Mark Hillyard (foster@inreach.com), December 10, 1999.

Wolf, First I would choose a better name than Wolf, if you're going to preach Christianianity. Wolves are not good in Bible parlance!

And stop sending everyone to hell. If you are going to preach.

You said..."I believe in the Bible and what it stands for even though I don't regularly go to church. You can say what you want, it doesn't hurt us. You're only destroying your own soul. BTW is your real name Janet RENO? You sound just like him.

If that is true tell us the difference between Israel and Judah. A hint...There are twelve sons of Israel. Two were not to become nations. Start in Gen. 48-49.

What "religion" was Israel prophesied to accept? Judeo-Christian, Christian, or Judaism?

Now go read the Bible and send me an email and I will grade you.

Mark...A Christian kicked out of 3 churches, Judeo-Christian, because they cannot bare the truth.

-- Mark Hillyard (foster@inreach.com), December 10, 1999.

OUCH!! Did I hit a NERVE? I don't feel like explaining anything to you, Butch, you're not listening anyway. If you're "A Christian kicked out of 3 churches" then maybe someone's trying to tell you something.

-- Powder (Powder@keg.com), December 10, 1999.

One thought-- All religions are MAN-made. No one really knows what the big force is who put this whole universe together. Jesus is a just another come-lately kind of guy. The bible was put together by a committee. Check out your religious history. You know what committees are like. Most important is to try and deal in a good way with your neighbor and hope he/she will do the same.

-- D.J. Phillips (gardengal@land.com), December 11, 1999.

"He who loves his life shall lose it. He who despises those things on earth will have eternal life." John 12:23

-- preparing (preparing@home.com), December 11, 1999.

To "Very Old Fool"...Magnificent! I would have to quote your entire post in order to get specific, there was not much if anything I would not embrace... Do we know one another? Here at TimeBomb? Email me for further discussion...the below address is a real one.

And just one more thought for all posters to this thread,...we create a new world, the future world, every day, every hour, every moment. It is the lack of this mindfulness that is the present and past ruination of "the world as we know it", as the unintended consequences of "just a little computer code from 25 years ago" attests to. Systems...organic systems even with machines..........Every breath. Every moment,...critical.

NOW!

-She in the sheet, upon the hilltop,...

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), December 11, 1999.

I pray for TEOTWAWKI,the french didn't revolt until they could not buy wine and bread and we're a bigger nation of cattle than the French ever were.When millions are shitting themselves to death outside overflowing hospitals and all the boomers see their yupped out retirement plans dashed only then will we be ready to put the suckers against the wall.Sometimes it's best to let a babe burn their fingers so that they learn better.As we sleep the sleep of a contented house slave indifferant with our full bellies,oblivious to the suffering of the field slaves because it's not our problem.The masta's must be put up against the wall and shot and left to rot as an example of what will happen to those who would deny the people liberty by enslaving us to our baser desires.Destroy your televisions, read the constitution,and realize that there are better fates than living the life of a fattened slave.And there are worse fates than losing your life fighting for freedom.

-- armed,prepped and waiting (hopeful@doomesville.com), December 11, 1999.