These are two quotes (and my comments) on the headline news today:

"Bill Clinton permitted himself yesterday to forget by a second, by a minute, by half-a-minute what Russia means and that Russia has a complete arsenal of nuclear weapons," said Yeltsin in Beijing.

"We shall dictate the world how to live rather than Mr. Clinton alone."

In another headline article today:

President Bill Clinton conceded Wednesday that the world community had no concrete means to force Russia to end its military onslaught in Chechnya and ruled out cutting off US aid to Moscow, saying such a move would not serve US interests.

"Two-thirds of the aid that we spend in Russia is involved in de-nuclearization and safeguarding nuclear materials. And I think it is plain that we have an interest in continuing that," the US leader said.

-----------

Let me see if I got this right. Clinton is going to continue to fund Russia, believing that the money is being used to de-nuclearize and safe guard nuclear materials.

Yeltsin, at the same time, is now threatening the United States, saying that Russia is fully armed and equipped with nuclear missiles, furthermore they will dictate the world how to live. What is wrong with this picture?

Please notice where Yeltsin made his comments. Thats right, in the capital of democracy of the free world, Beijing. Never mind those poor students ground up under the tanks, that was a mistake. Beijing is now our friend and most favored nation. Never mind that China threatened to nuke Los Angeles, or that it now has its missiles pointed at the United States. Oh, you can also forget about the round up of Christians and religious dissidents by the tens of thousands. After all, these people are terrorist. They are probably in league with Taiwan, who is clearly a rebel country and needs to be severely punished.

I would assume the Beijing butchers enjoyed that bit of posturing by Yeltsin. China and Russian have now reached an agreement to jointly combat the influence of the West. This alliance can only spell trouble for the West and particularly the United States.

Does anyone know what Russia means as stated by Yeltsin? We already know what China means. Does Yeltsin mean a return to a brutal and bloody regime of death and destruction against all who stand in her way? Tens of millions died under Russias policies. Thousands are dying even now under Russias brutal bombardment of Chechnya.

Is America prepared to pay that price? Particularly with Clinton in charge? You know, the guy that dodged the draft, despises the military, downsized and demoralized our troops and our armed forces to the point of total collapse? The guy that opened the doors for technology transfers to China, received illegal campaign contributions from his Chinese task masters? The guy that obediently hands over the Panama Canal while giving us meaningless platitudes and assurances?

Damn. Double damn. I havent even begun on Hillary and her efforts to demoralize and destroy America, or all the scandals, lies, coverups, bribes, murders and blatant abuse of the system perpetrated by these two. It seems that Mr. And Mrs. Clinton wont be satisfied until America has been totally destroyed from within and from without. Either they fail to understand what is going on, or they know exactly what they are doing.

Im may not be the brightest student around, but I am clearing seeing a definite trend here. Why dont I trust this guy? Mr. Clinton, you are either the stupidest president in U.S. history or you are exactly what I think you are, a Manchurian president, the impeached traitor in chief who has betrayed America beyond belief. It truly does stagger the imagination. You have encouraged Americas enemies in every way possible who are now threatening to use their nuclear arsenals against us, while at the same time you are paying them to do so.

I am truly ashamed of our Congress. I make no apologies for our traitors, but Congress has utterly failed in its job to protect the United States against her enemies. Can America endure another year of the Clintons? I seriously doubt it. We will very shortly be facing Y2K and every indication proves that Clinton will now make his final gambit to dictator.

God help us all, He clearly is our only hope.

Jonathan Richards

-- Jonathan (lifeofliberty@yahoo.com), December 09, 1999

Answers

Sitting ringside, watching the show, glad for this Forum, know I'm not alone.

-- crazy out there (anybody@noticing.brink?), December 09, 1999.

Well stated Jonathan. I cannot believe the military has not drug Clinton from the White House and publicly executed him for high treason. This dereliction of duty by our joint cheifs of staff may well result in the utter destruction of the United States sometime in the IMMEDIATE future.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), December 09, 1999.

"...we are totally, irrepairably, completely f*cked."

Unknown Soldier, Dien Ben Phu, 1959

-- Billy Boy (Rakkasan101st@aol.com), December 09, 1999.

Thanks Jonathan!

As you can see here, you're neither crazy nor alone. Data I've seen from multiple sources says the same thing to people with eyes to see...

We've received all the warning we'll ever get by now.

Do now what you must. Don't delay any longer. DON'T LOOK BACK.

-- (Kurt.Borzel@gems8.gov.bc.ca), December 09, 1999.

This nation is going to richly receive ALL that it has coming to it.

The American people will have only THEMSELVES to blame. They let this happen.

All the horror, all the sorrow and all the desolation, will be well- deserved by this most careless, ignorant and oblivious of generations.

The "It can't happen here" indifferent attitude is the Achille's Heel that will wipe America from from the map. It exists from the leadership on down to Joe Farmer and Frank Farmer.

As I've said before, 2/3 of the people of this nation will we annihilated by war and disease, followed by famine. The 1/3 that is left will be taken into a captivity that will be unrivalled in Human History.

I've no timeframe for the above, and I have no details as to exactly how and by whom we are destroyed. It makes reading the rapidly evolving geo-political and geo-financial news stream interesting speculations. My guess is that America rips itself apart...and then perhaps the UN or EU comes in to feast on our carcass via the wolves that have led our nation to a globalist gas chamber.

Again....we have only ourselves to blame. We chose leaving freedom and liberty to be regulated and distributed by the hands of a self- serving and evil government. We didn't want to be bothered with the tedious job of safeguarding our birthright and promoting individual responsibility. No, we left that up to others who we assumed would be good stewards because we were swooned with words and emotion.

Sadly, the Constitution has suffered the same fate as the Scriptures. It has been watered-down, redefined, interpreted a billion-ways to Sunday, and has lost it's real power and impact. Like Scripture, Our Rights and the Constitution have become whatever anyone wants or "believes" it to say and mean. The plain reading and meaning of the documents are reinterpreted and redefined to accomodate our current worldviews.

In other words, we have remade the United States of America, and our Representative Republic into our own image and comfort levels. Mainly through allowing the Elitists to redefine freedom and our history for us without challenge.

Because of these things, the rumblings from Russia and China, the threat of Y2K disruptions and our casino-like economy do not register with the majority. This is why our annihilation may indeed be the most horrible downfall of any nation in history.

You cannot overcome a situation or defeat an enemy that you ignore or do not believe exists.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), December 09, 1999.

You might as well toot in the wind, my friend. The majority of the American population is completely oblivious to what is going on. Pokemon, Furbies and Beanie Babies rule the scene while the dirty hands are being played out behind closed doors.

While it is noble that the minority try to flag the abhorations that are taking place, I'm afraid that your efforts are in vain. Your labors place you in a precarious position by gaining yourself publicity as being "alarmist" and "extremist". You are "inherently dangerous" to the progress of the nation and your position is viewed as a threat to improving the condition of our state, and humanity in general.

As long as the population's basic needs are being met, along with some extra "niceties", and the rich are without worry, the trend will continue. As long as Average Joe has his or her occassional six pack and can watch Monday night football while maintaining a marginal debt of 70% to gross income, things are hunky-dory and "don't rock my boat".

Most of America is oblivious to these things. People are far too "short-sighted" to even begin to fathom the possibility that the very foundations of reality as they know it are being changed without somehow slapping them in the face. "If it doesn't affect me, it's not happening". "If I can't see it with my own two eyes, it isn't real". Or how about this one, "It can't be what I am really seeing, it must be something else". Denial.

What can you do to change this ? Pray. If you are an athiest, chance it anyway. The world isn't the same as it was yesterday and tomorrow will definitely be a "brand new episode".

-- Rob (maxovrdrv51@hotmail.com), December 09, 1999.

C'mon, gang, get real, would ya please?

1. Imagine if the independence movement in Texas were to gain momentum, to the point where they started bombing hotels in D.C. The federal government sends in troops, and tells the citizens of Austin to leave or die. Do you really think the Russians would have anything to say about this? And, if they did, do you think the military and Commander in Chief, no matter who it was, would give a rat's ass? Don't you think the CiC would tell the Russians to mind their own damn business, 'cause we've got nukes, don't ya know?

2. People like INVAR love to complain about how stupid and fat and dumb and lazy the American people are, but isn't this the case everywhere? Aren't common people in every country concerned mainly about making a living, getting by, and maybe having a little fun? And aren't people everywhere mainly content to let the geopoliticians take care of geopolitics? (Not that they're doing such a hot job of it.) I would say that it's you nasty complainers that are the REAL enemy of the American people, you show nothing but contempt for the average Joe and Frank. You think you're so damn smart and know all the answers, but you do nothing to educate, you simply spew vile. If the "Average American" is SUPPOSED to behave the way you do, I'm outta here, thank you very much!

Oh, and BTW - FWIW, other than INVAR's little "unrivaled in human history" fantasy, I tend to agree with the conclusions that ya'll have about this stuff. It's just the vitriol that I disagree with.

-- (dot@dot.dot), December 09, 1999.

but after all is said and done ....and all the battles are finished..

-- someone (sway4@yahoo.com), December 09, 1999.

the pepole of light will be left to live the next 1000 years in peace and bliss

-- someone (sway4@yahoo.com), December 09, 1999.

In response to Yeltsin bragging about his nukes, Clinton said...

"In Washington, Clinton responded: ``I haven't forgotten that. You know, I didn't think he'd forgotten America was a great power when he disagreed with what I did in Kosovo.''"

Haaah haaa!! I LOVE IT!

God he's great! Reagan and Bush never had balls like that!

That sick old drunk Yeltsin is probably get himself so worked up that he'll have a stroke and die before he gets the balls to pick a fight with us!

Clinton is a military genius.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), December 09, 1999.

Mr. Dot,

You illustrate perfectly the amount of ignorance that exists out there about the geopolitical stage, and the reason WHY America will end up precisely as I suggest.

First, your hypothetical analogy of the Independence movement in Texas and the situation in Chechnya proves my point about your ignorance. You accidentally illustrate WHY we are in mortal danger with the Russian situation. The Russians have not forgotten the illegal use of NATO in Kosovo, and coupled with the threat by that dweeb in the State Dept. about using NATO again in the Chechnyian situation - explains the recent moves by Russia in it's new alliance with China and it's recent statements about "Protecting the world". Outside the U.S., WE are viewed as the out-of-control aggressor. Comparing a fictional scenario using Texas Militia and the real situation in Chechnya to create a "how would we feel if this were us" argument ignores the fact that our Founding Documents are unique in the world, and that our worldview does not apply to the rest of the globe. They do not share it. Neither have they achieved the level of prosperity and power that we have.

Plus I notice your glibness with Russia's veiled threat to use nukes. Apparently you falsely believe they won't ever use them in a First Strike. You obviously don't understand Russian Doctrine. You suffer from "It- can-never-happen-here" syndrome. A common ailment stemming from complacent prosperity.

Now about your quip about me:

Complaining about this people is not a bunch of lamenting on my part. It is a statement about our current culture. It is a statement about our current character as a people. It is an indictment of our nation as it has fallen. It is not negotiable, nor arguable...it is a point plain and simple. I did not preface my statement by implying "I wish...." or "I hope..." It is where we are, and why we have arrived at this state. I could care less whether you agree with me or not. Proof is in the headlines that hit us daily.

Plus, your following statement needs an address: "[you]....complain about how stupid and fat and dumb and lazy the American people are, but isn't this the case everywhere?"

NO. IT HASN'T BEEN THE CASE HERE IN AMERICA UNTIL RECENTLY.

"...Aren't common people in every country concerned mainly about making a living, getting by, and maybe having a little fun? "

NO, MOST FOLKS OUTSIDE THE WESTERN CULTURES ARE CONCERNED ABOUT FINDING FOOD, DODGING BULLETS AND MORTARS AND DRINKING CLEAN WATER.

"...And aren't people everywhere mainly content to let the geopoliticians take care of geopolitics? "

SURE. THAT'S WHY YOU HAVE DICTATORS AND DESPOTS. THE SAME WILL BE TRUE FOR US AS WELL.

You are obviously totally ignorant about WHY this nation has become the greatest nation in all of Human History. Americans used to be INVOLVED with the shape of their communities and in-turn the nation. THEY TOOK A ROLE IN MAKING THIS NATION. Now, people like you dot, sit back and let "Professionals" manage your liberty, as long as they keep you fed and happy with mindless pursuits and paper wealth, ignoring the fact that your liberty is being shackled in irons of your own indifference.

"... I would say that it's you nasty complainers that are the REAL enemy of the American people"

NICE DEMOUGUOGERY. YOU HAVE LEARNED WELL. I guarantee you that if it weren't for "complainers" like me, THIS NATION would still be a British Colony you dufus! You're pissed because someone is shining a light on your little pseudo "comfort zone".

"..., you show nothing but contempt for the average Joe and Frank. "

NOT SO, I'M DISGUSTED AT THE AVERAGE JOE AND FRANK FOR ARBROCATING THEIR CONSTITUTIONAL DUTY TO BE VIGILANT.

"...You think you're so damn smart and know all the answers, but you do nothing to educate, you simply spew vile. If the "Average American" is SUPPOSED to behave the way you do, I'm outta here, thank you very much! "

Only God has all the answers. I however, am studied of our American History and our Founding Documents, and understand WHY the founding principles were put down on parchment. You have no clue, as evidence by your post. Not sure whether it's willful ignorance or whether you are a victim of our "education system". I find it sick that you define the pointing-out of our derelictions to liberty as "spewing vile". You apparently have never read nor understood the Constitution and the reasons WHY the Founders listed the Inalienable Rights and Responsibilities we as a people derrived from God. You say I'm not educating because you refuse to believe the truth, and you hate it. Perhaps one of the Socialistic Countries of Europe would better suit your definitions of liberty.

If the "Average American" behaved or shared the same ideology as I do, this nation would NOT be in the mess it is currently in both socially, spiritually and politically. We would have never surrendered our liberties to career politicians, we would have never allowed incremental encroachments on freedom, and we would have NEVER tolerated a lying, adulterous traitor to remain in high office.

Since you loathe the ideologies and warnings of those like myself, you indeed shall get your wish. You will indeed "Be outta here", along with the rest of us....as we are completely annihilated and assimilated into another system of governance.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), December 09, 1999.

Hawk:

Care to tell the class where you found that quote from Clinton?

-- (Kurt.Borzel@gems8.gov.bc.ca), December 09, 1999.

HERE

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), December 09, 1999.

"Mr. Dot"? You sure about that, INVAR?

Are you sure about all of the other assumptions that you make? I counted 12.

You took two fairly simple points, "The US would not allow Russia to butt its nose into our internal affairs," and (basically) "Average people everywhere and everywhen are content to be fat and dumb and lazy" and proved the main point that I was trying to make, which is that your type is heartless and filled with bile.

"Perhaps one of the Socialistic Countries of Europe would better suit your definitions of liberty.

If the 'Average American' behaved or shared the same ideology as I do, this nation would NOT be in the mess it is currently in both socially, spiritually and politically."

Have you ever been to Denmark or Sweden? Very pleasant places. Of course they are more homogenous than this country, which makes a big difference. I'm not suggesting that the way they run their countries is the best way for everywhere, but you should examine your rabid anti- socialism. You should also reexamine your American history. This country was built on the backs and blood of the less fortunate. That's what happens when "anything goes."

INVAR, you need to get out of your head more, stop drooling over your "Star Wars/Evil Empire" fantasies and make connections with real people. You might learn that things are not as clear-cut as you paint them to be.

-- (dot@dot.dot), December 09, 1999.

Thanks Hawk! I appreciate the link.

dot: quit whining. The original post is a timely and vital concern to all of us. The facts point towards instability, regardless of ideology.

-- (Kurt.Borzel@gems8.gov.bc.ca), December 09, 1999.

An important and timely observation. Thanks a lot!

-- Irving (irvingf@myremarq.com), December 09, 1999.

We Win!

-- Mark Hillyard (foster@inreach.com), December 09, 1999.

Jonathan, MEGA-DITOS! If God only grants me one favor in the afterlife, I will ask to be the one to spring the trapdoor and send Bill Clinton to the sub-basement of Hell along with his commie little co-president wife. It is a vivid testament to the craven blindness and ignorance to which America has sunk that he is still in office at all. Our govt. has become the world's largest organized crime syndicate-stupifyingly corrupt and amazing in it's perversion and usurpation of the constitution. Sic Semper Tyrannis!

-- doktorbob (downsouth@dixie.com), December 09, 1999.

I'm NOT afraid of either China or Russia attacking us because we have bought them off, lock stock and barrel.

We KNOW that the aid we send to Russia is really just a payoff to the military leaders to keep them placated. Every time we send them money it mysteriously 'disappears'. Bomb us and that money stops and their leaders will find themselves in the same boat as just about everyone else in their collapsed economy, unemployed.

China won't attack us as long as we keep millions upon millions of Chinese employed making beanie babies, sneakers, etc. for us. Unemployment is a *very* big problem in China and attacking us would be devestating to them. It might appear that they bought Clinton, but in reality it was just a kickback to ensure that, no matter what they do politically, the US dollars will keep flowing.

Greed my friends, is what is REALLY keeping the peace these days, not nukes and certainly not 'policy'.

-TECH32-

-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), December 09, 1999.

TECH32,

WRONG!!

Apparently you haven't been keeping up on the news. We are going to be cutting Russia of from IMF money, and in addition we will be putting economic sanctions on them, just like we did to Iraq. It's already being discussed.

"But European and U.S. officials have begun discussing sanctions, varying from withdrawing ambassadors to cutting off aid or International Monetary Fund loans."

If Russia wants to behave like barbarians, then that's the way they will be treated, like barbarians.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), December 09, 1999.

Hawk,

I'll believe it when I see it. The public, as well as .gov, have very short memories. If Y2K brings Russia to it's knees do you think our leaders are going to have the stomach to make matters WORSE by cutting off aid? I don't.

-TECH32-

-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), December 09, 1999.

You bet your ass they will, I've already seen the talking heads discussing it. I just saw Clinton on television laughing at what Yeltsin said. He doesn't like what they are doing because after all of the help we given them to change their ways, they are now going back to their same old primitive behavior. Clinton will make Yeltsin get down on his knees and apologize for threatening with his nukes before we ever help them again. I love it!

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), December 09, 1999.

Hawk:

You may love it, but I think you're being a wee bit overly optimistic here. There's more to every story than meets the press, as we all well know.

Anytime you provoke the school-yard bully you roll the dice with your health, and America is not what it was under Reagan...

Leave room for Murphy, and you'll be closer to understanding the global reality.

-- (Kurt.Borzel@gems8.gov.bc.ca), December 09, 1999.

Kurt,

"There's more to every story than meets the press, as we all well know."

Of course, we all know that from what we've seen with Y2K! The ideas I mentioned were being discussed last night in a live interview on the News Hour with Jim Lehrer, so it wasn't like they did any spin doctoring. The discussion was with Brzezinski, former National Security adviser to Carter, and Eagleburger, who was Secretary of State for Bush. Given, these guys are no longer involved in the process, but I think they have a pretty good idea of the steps that will be taken by the current administration. Here is part of the interview:

"ZBIGNIEW BRZEZINSKI: Well, the whole point is that it shouldn't be just words. Saying it will be a heavy price and then there being no price is, in fact, loss of credibility and self-defeat. There are things we can do. Take again the East Timor example. We said to the Indonesians, it's going to adversely affect your access to the world financial markets. It's going to affect your cooperation with us. It's going to affect your military connections with us. The same thing applies here. Russia needs IMF credits. The Europeans are, in fact, in favor of delaying them. The Germans and the French have been delaying them. They want Export Import Bank guarantees. They need that. They want to be accepted into the G-8 as a full member, a club of democracies when they're engaging in non-democratic conduct. The great many things, which can be done to convey some degree of pressure, which may not work, but which may discourage this form of conduct. And it seems to me if we are serious when we say that Russia will be paying a heavy price, there ought to be a heavy price. Otherwise it's empty words."

Interview

I think Y2K will work to our advantage because as TECH32 said, it will make Russia even more desperate. We might finally be able to break them, and get them to go along with future peace agreements and arms reductions. We need to put pressure on them, not just with empty threats, and I think Clinton is going to do it.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), December 09, 1999.

Hawk,

You are a communist sympathizer. Poyang didn't post that, you friggin' moron. I did. I have watched you side with whoever makes the least sense on this board and you flag yourself a real weeny. A friggin' wanker, I say. Like the Poyang post, are afraid of the commies and don't want to piss in their cup because you just might have to drink from it. You sorry excuse for an American, you.

-- Hawk Killer (dumb@nd.dum.ber), December 09, 1999.

Good thoughts Hawk.

I have a little trouble trusting Russians (other than to be Russians!)

Communism is an ideology, and the top people, ethically corroded as they are, still plan for the downfall of the West. It's too good a prize to let go of needlessly, and they needn't let go of it because Clinton wishes to continue supporting their rotten regime. To have Clinton embarass himself the way he did yesterday and today did no good for America's credibility...and I'm referring to the healthy fear we should instill in Communists around the world.

They're like the schoolyard bully, after a fashion, and should you ever threaten and not make good the threat, you jeapordize your health--as he no longer fears you! You may rest assured they have more nuclear weapons than we do. They also have some degree of missile defence--long documented and mentioned by numerous defectors.

I am not an expert, but (since my days as an infantryman) I've made a study of communists and their worldwide track record--not impressive on the reliability or humanity scales.

This is all a moot point. Regardless of what we think we know, or even can calculate, we are presently vulnerable to attack. The rollover will produce a terrible temptation to destroy the capitalist pigs while they still control their defence systems.

You may be right. We shall see.

-- (Kurt.Borzel@gems8.gov.bc.ca), December 10, 1999.

"Hawk Killer,"

Ooooooh, am I to take this a threat??

He says... "you flag yourself a real weeny"

Oh Jeeeeessssuuusss!!! Those sound like fightin words!

I'm TERRIFIED! Lol!!

Tell you what ten year-old, after you get through puberty and you feel man enough to take me on, you just let me know. You see, God gave me permission to not have to accept ignorance, and in fact He encourages me to eliminate it. I would thoroughly enjoy tearing you to shreds in order to make the world a better place! :-)

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), December 10, 1999.

Kurt,

I see what you're getting at, but disagree on a couple points. I don't see what you mean when you say Clinton embarrassed himself. He flat out told Yeltsin that what he was doing was wrong, and he is correct, so where is the embarrassment? Yeltsin is the one who embarrassed himself in my opinion, acting like a stupid bully, threatening to use nukes. I can see why Clinton was laughing.

Also, I think you are incorrect to jump to the conclusion that Clinton is not going to take action to punish Russia. I have never once seen him make an empty threat or back down from anything the way Bush did in the Gulf War. He follows through. The right-wing critics are two-faced liars with no backbone. A few months ago they were whining about how Clinton was being too brutal over in Kosovo, now they are crying that he is too weak and he's leaving us vulnerable. Bottom line, they will take whatever he does and make it look like the wrong thing.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), December 10, 1999.

Ignore that fool Hawk! Ask him what he will do when the Chinese take over the canal at zero hour. If we think we've been flooded with Mexican Cartel heroin now... Wait till the Triads get hold of the passage. And Klinton thinks the Chinese will bend over backwards to play nice with the schoolchildren in this hemisphere's playpool. Ha! They haven't forgotten the British Lions's imperial treachery during the Opium Wars. Revenge is oh so sweet. Pray our Republic of Texas holds the Alamo for the rest of this nation. P.S. Tom says Right on!

-- Sally Hemmings (286yrsinUSA@slavery.com), December 10, 1999.

Yahoo! Singapore - News Asia

Hawk: I shoudda referenced that! Whoops! sorry... Thursday, December 9 7:01 AM SGT

Clinton rules out end to US aid to Russia over Chechnya WASHINGTON, Dec 8 (AFP) - President Bill Clinton conceded Wednesday that the world community had no concrete means to force Russia to end its military onslaught in Chechnya and ruled out cutting off US aid to Moscow, saying such a move would not serve US interests.

"A sanctions regime has to be imposed by the United Nations, and Russia has a veto there," the US leader told a press conference here. "I'm not sure that would be in our interest or in the interests of the ultimate resolution of the crisis."

Clinton also ruled out cutting off US aid to Moscow, citing national security considerations.

"Two-thirds of the aid that we spend in Russia is involved in de- nuclearization and safeguarding nuclear materials. And I think it is plain that we have an interest in continuing that," the US leader said.

The other third, he pointed out, is used to fund democracy projects -- independent media, student exchanges, non-government organizations and promotion of small business. "I don't think our interests would be furthered by terminating that," he noted.

Clinton spoke hours after Russian troops captured a key gateway to the Chechen capital of Grozny as Chechnya appealed for international help only 72 hours before a deadline for the city's terrified inhabitants to flee or risk death.

Russian president Boris Yeltsin meanwhile flew off to Beijing for informal talks with Chinese President Jiang Zemin in which he was expected to seek support for Russia's military offensive in Chechnya.

Clinton however stressed that the Russian military strategy in Chechnya would not work and noted that Moscow was "already paying a heavy price."

"I have no sympathy for the Chechnya rebels ... for terrorist acts in Moscow. But the people of Chechnya should not be punished for what the rebels did," he said. "I think the (Russian) policy will not work."

"The continuation of it and the amassing of hundreds of thousands of refugees, which will have to be cared for by the international community ...will further alienate the global community from Russia," he added.

Despite the Chechnya conflict, Washington believes it is essential to maintain a dialogue with Moscow, so as to keep Russia on the path to democratic reforms ahead of a key presidential election there next year and to find a compromise in difficult strategic arms negotiations.

Clinton also noted that the world community could not act through international financial institutions as International Monetary Fund credits to Moscow have already been suspended.

His comments were likely to disappoint European Union leaders, who were planning action in response to Moscow's ultimatum to Grozny residents.

European Commission President Romano Prodi said in Brussels earlier Wednesday that EU leaders meeting in Helsinki at the weekend would try to agree on sanctions against Russia for its military onslaught in Chechnya.

-- (Kurt.Borzel@gems8.gov.bc.ca), December 10, 1999.

That reminds me Sally, what the hell is this jerkoff Jonathon talking about when he says...

"The guy that obediently hands over the Panama Canal while giving us meaningless platitudes and assurances?"

Were all of these Clinton haters born yesterday, or are they just too stupid to read up on their history? It was the Republicans of the seventies, Nixon and Ford, and of course our old friend Mr. New World Order Republican himself, Henry Kissinger, who developed and completed the treaty to turn over the canal back to Panama, despite public opinion that this could pose a risk to national security.

Kissinger and the Republicans gave the Panama Canal away without even thinking about National Security because Kissinger is Mr. New World Order

He also started giving our secret satellite and defense technology to the Chinese way back in the early 70's, but that's just one of thousands of ways Republicans have sold out our country.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), December 10, 1999.

INVAR, Jonathon, Hawk and you too Billy Boy, you all make excellent points! This nation has been destroyed by both parties. And Billy Jeff's namesake has rolled in his grave many a night contemplating all this. Especially what "Dr" Kissentell had to say about the mysterious death of the major bankster in Monaco and the Russian default on the loan payment of 963 million to EU bank consortium the day before? Tom urges ALL you loyal patriot defenders out there to really consider consolidation... And to Hawk Killer, "Friggin wanker?" Sally can spot a Tory redcoat a mile off honey. 'ere it's "jackoff", love. Buggin ol Gerry and the Pacemakers I see. Ahhh Treachery, thy name is Perfidious Albion. Yeah, we read Warday back in 84 and forget it. Not happenin. The boys here, Jonathon, INVAR, Hawk and esp Billy Boy will see that doesn't occur. God Bless you all!

-- Sally Hemmings (286yrsinUSA@slavery.com), December 10, 1999.

Here's a report on Yeltsin's nuclear comments, from the Irish Times correspondent in Beijing:

http ://www.ireland.com/newspaper/front//1999/1210/fro2.htm

-- Risteard Mac Thomais (uachtaran@ireland.com), December 10, 1999.

Thank you Risteard, that was funny! Yeltsin was so drunk he didn't even know which country he was in...

"We will not give you back the Kuriles"

LOL! I bet that within a couple months Yeltsin will no longer be President, and he'll be dead within a year.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), December 10, 1999.

From: Y2K, ` la Carte by Dancr (pic), near Monterey, California

I found it interesting to read how The Irish Times ( www.ireland.com ) translated the statements of Mr. Yeltsin and Mr. Jiang. It would be good to know what is written in the Russian Pravda. As far as I'm aware, there's not yet any translation available of whatever may be said, there.

From Chinese, Russian Presidents confer again in China Daily ( www.chinadaily.net/ ):

President Yeltsin reiterated the Russian government's consistent adherence to its principled stance on the Taiwan issue and its support to China's great reunification cause.

Russia will not accept the absurdity that the cross-strait relationships are the "state-to-state relations," Yeltsin said.

President Jiang expressed thanks to the Russian side for its support to China's reunification.

Moreover, President Jiang re-affirmed that China supports Russia's move to crack down on terrorism and separatism and safeguard its national unity and territorial integrity.

The Chechen issue is an internal affair of Russia, Jiang said, emphasizing that no country has the right to intervene in a sovereign nation's crackdown on the terrorist and splittist activities within its territory.

From Yeltsin Growls a Warning at Clinton in Moscow Times ( www.moscowtimes.ru ):

BEIJING -- President Boris Yeltsin, in a stunning outburst, reminded U.S. President Bill Clinton on Thursday that Russia possessed a "full nuclear arsenal" and would not be lectured on its military assault on Chechnya. 

"It seems he has for a minute, for a second, for half a minute, forgotten what Russia is, that Russia has a full arsenal of nuclear weapons. He has forgotten about that. Therefore he decided to flex his muscles, as they say," Yeltsin said. 

Yeltsin accused Clinton of trying to dictate to Russia, and said and Jiang would never let that happen.

"I want to tell Clinton through you that he should not forget what kind of a world he lives in. No one person has and no one will dictate to the whole world how to live, how to labor, rest and so on," he said. "No and again no. A multipolar world - that is the basis for everything.

"That's what we've agreed on with Jiang Zemin, the president of the People's Republic of China. We will dictate, and not he alone.

So far, nothing yet today at Chechnya News ( www.chechnyanews.com )

-- Dancr (addy.available@my.webpage), December 10, 1999.

Our own Foreign Minister (inthe UK Robin cook) said that he wold consider cuttin off Russian aid because of human rights violations, he seems unaware that they have been abusing human rights for the past 70 years (and before) this seesm to be a problem with most European socialists (and yes the Blair is though you never hear that word

-- Sir R (richard.dale@unum.co.uk), December 10, 1999.

INVAR... very well said. Now for the short version. The Russians still have the ability to nuke the shit out of western europe. The Russians still have the ability to nuke the shit out of the US. Now the Russians have a DRUNKEN FOOL AT THE SWITCH. China will assume control of the canal. That is the SHORT route between the East coast and the LEFT coast for much of our fleet. Shut those gates and all ships go around the Cape. Possibly some of the most dangerous water in the world. Yep, Y2K is gonna kick the hell out of Russia. Do you think they don't know that? Now let me ask you, if you were in control of Russia, and you had been watching the agressivness with which the U.S. had been behaving over the past decade, what would you do before your country went into the toilet because of a computer problem? Damn, damn, damn. How is it that you children can argue about twigs while a tree is falling on you? LOOK AROUND YOU.

-- (...@.......), December 10, 1999.

...and Rome, being the most powerful and feared of all civilizations and rulers, crumbled under her own pride, gluttony and self importance, to be ruled by those she once towered over. Raped, plundered and left naked to those whom she once stood in awe and admiration. History repeats itself. Those who are ignorant of history and ignore her examples are bound to be a vitim of the same; someday. Over- estimation of ones self and under-estimation of the opponent are the criteria for imminent suprise.

-- Rob (maxovrdrv51@hotmail.com), December 12, 1999.