I move that we ADD a leaderboard

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I move that we ADD a leaderboard(not wipe out the old one, and replace a new one) where only MAME 35 TG 3 entries will be allowed. That way, hopefully everyone will be happy. I vote yes to this motion. We should be EXTREMELY strict with this new leaderboard. Examples include...

- No Autofire allowed(yes... we can detect this!)

- No run like hell cheats

- No recordings less than 90 % framerate

- All confirmers should be allowed to edit other scores for cheating or incorrectly uploaded scores.

Again, this is a new leaderboard - with this motion, you would still have the old leaderboard in addition with this one.

Anything else I should have up there? Thanks for reading - I have been gypped of points at least four times(probably more)(I know some have been gypped a lot more than that), and this cheating needs to stop NOW! This is one step forward for a cheatless MARP! :)

-- Gameboy9 (goldengameboy@yahoo.com), December 09, 1999

Answers

I would like to add the following:

- only original romsets; no clones whatsoever - must use TGTS or default settings - no points leeching / unethical play - percentage based scoring with no "penalty" - previously recorded INPs from MAME 0.34 FINAL should be accepted

-- Pat (laffaye@ibm.net), December 09, 1999.


I can agree with everything except the last one. Why? Because that would allow the very thing we're trying to defeat - slow computer cheating. That's what we're trying to get rid of, right?

-- Gameboy9 (goldengameboy@yahoo.com), December 09, 1999.

Phil Lamat reminded me of one more thing:(via his recent pong recording)

- ABSOLUTLY POSITIVELY NO EASY-TO-TIE GAMES!!!!!

No pong, no checkmate, no dominos, no comotion, no off-the-wall sente version, none of that.

also...

- All recordings' scores will be done on the first credit. Guess who's responsible for that rule? Phil Lamat again - but this time, it's his pontoon recording.

- Finally, no broken games should have a score. Self-Explanatory.

-- Gameboy9 (goldengameboy@yahoo.com), December 09, 1999.


Yea, you're right. Might as well start with a clean slate. Perhaps when MAME 0.36 FINAL comes out, Mark can update his EXE to include all the latest games. At that point, recording submissions could begin.

-- Pat (laffaye@ibm.net), December 09, 1999.

I must definately say no. A) The legal (private version/public (release source code)) hasn't been worked out yet with Nicola. B) TGMame hasn't been tested enough to know whether or not it is still with the same slowdown problems. C) It negates all previous work done. D) Sport games usually need more than one credit to play correctly.

-- Chris Parsley (cparsley1@hotmail.com), December 09, 1999.


I added a new vote topic for this at http://wintermute.nu/poll/

The ip address of the voters are logged (so no multi voting :), they can be vewied here http://wintermute.nu/poll/printdb.php3

-- Dave Kaupp (info@kaupp.cx), December 09, 1999.


Makesure we have a document of all the games we are going to "ban" from the new leaderbaord so that if questions are asked we can give the answer as the url of banned games (include Angry's Banned techniques and the recent banned games vote.)

I must also add that games that can not be played back by a confirmer that attempts to confirm the score should not contribute a score to the leaderboard. This might call for a little implimentation of a confirmed state. Since someone might be able to play it back even if the first confirmer isn't able to.

When a game is attempted to be confirmed, and all options are exhausted to get it to playback, the confirmer should put the recording/entry in a unplaybackable state, where it's still there for other confirmers to attempt to play it back, but doesn't contribute a score.

It might be usefull to store in the confirmed state implimentation of who confirmed or unplayabacked a recording, so confirmers can see that they themselves haven't yet tried to playback a recording (and they should try it) even though it says it hasn't been playedback yet.

Restating what CP said: We must be wary that the tgmame version is hack proof before we go on the path, but tg3mame looks pretty reasonable. We also must be wary of the mame open source rules. But i believe releasing the source without encryption routines/calls or at least different ones seems reasonable enough, since no one should be attempting to change the encryption like they would be attempting to change a driver routine.

-- Chad (churritz@cts.com), December 09, 1999.


I'm also wondering if scores that are considered sub-standard allowed to be posted to the new board?

-- Dave Kaupp (info@kaupp.cx), December 09, 1999.

Response to Gameboy attacks : your message stinks segregation

PONG : why do you forget to speak about GK who submitted a score on pong 2 days before me ? maybe you're afraid of mentioning one of the 2 best and most respected players on MARP and prefer the coward behaviour of joining the pack of hounds against me Anyway there is an entry for pong so I entered a score , that 's all (Game Guru has just entered a 6 on checkmat, but I think you won't attack him)

PONTOON : why do you forget to speak about Ray Atkinson who also used several tries on this game (and the contrary would be a stupid waste of time) ? Anyway I don't know where is the problem, there is no rule about this "first credit" request I've never heard about, and other players -guess what- did the same before me : Why do you forget to speak about Stig Remnes ' 378170 on combascb made with 4 games ? Why do you forget JoustGod's 659 on barrier made with 2 games ? etc.....

SCORES ON NON-WORKING GAMES : why do you forget to speak about your own score on dday ????????????

So now just shut up and forget me

-- phil (plamat@club-internet.fr), December 09, 1999.


gb9 idea of a TG only leaderboard is cool, but I don't want the old, full one, to be removed. I just hope Zwaxy will have the time to implement it.

I do agree with all the anti-cheating rules for this LB, benned games liss and so on.....just wonder what gb9 means with "broken games": if he means "games_that_don't_playback", well, of course; but if he means "games_that_a_skilled_player_could_play_indefinitely" (e.g. BeeJay at Gyruss, me at Crash, etc), I won't agree.

To Chad: time ago I proposed the idea of a "supervisoring authority" in charge of checking and deleting non valid recordings, and I found many people agreeing with it: this should be in charge of the ordinary LB too (the idea was born for that, at the time). If Zwaxy will agree , I here suggest Pat as "MARP major judge" (of course, if Pat agrees too :-). So far, also Lamat's will stop howling (he's right, anyway).

Cicca

-- Cicca (cicca@writeme.com), December 10, 1999.



I second Cicca's motion - Pat's quite good at making score corrections for us at the tournament, I think he can do the same in the regular MARP. Now I understand that Pat would need to make a final decision on this matter... but still - I think he's a good candidate.

-- Gameboy9 (goldengameboy@yahoo.com), December 10, 1999.

The biggest challenge that I see in all of this is ensuring that proper settings are being used. For example, I don't think it would be enough to say "All games can use default settings!" There are way too many that are extremely easy on default settings. That's the whole point behind Twin Galaxies Tournament Settings (TGTS). Who's got time for 24 hour marathons when there's a boatload of games to play!!

It appears as though we'd have to look at all valid MAME games and determine what the settings should be. Over the past 15+ years, Walter Day has compiled a lot of TG settings, but there are still a great number of games that have no standards. Now we could start out with defaults and then refine the settings as we learn more about the newer games. This information would have to be posted and kept up-to-date. Mark and Walter already have a much of this information readily available.

Verifying TGTS/Default settings is a major problem right now. Unfortuately, I don't think Mark's TG3 handles this because every game has a different "signature". For tourneys I use a custom program to check each recording. We would need someone to maintain this same program. Fortunately, updates would only occur twice a year, as that is basically the release schedule for MAME FINALS (currently every 6 months as it would be for TG MAME).

Most importantly we have to get Zwaxy's blessing! After all, this is his site and he may not want to offer a separate TGTS leaderboard. This idea is a good one but needs some careful planning. I'd like to see it better speced out--perhaps have a planning commitee of 3 volunteers. The LB itself would have to be somewhat policed by the players themselves, such as now where respected players have MARP confirmation privledges. That said, if we can get though all these issues, I'd accept the position of MARP Judge.

-- Pat (laffaye@ibm.net), December 10, 1999.


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