Tuesday, December 7, 1999

PM, key ministers on Y2K alert

Cabinet ready to invoke updated War Measures Act to deal with emergencies Jan. 1

By MARK DUNN, Sun Media Ottawa Bureau OTTAWA -- Prime Minister Jean Chretien's government will be on full Y2K alert New Year's Eve and ready to invoke an updated War Measures Act if needed, sources have told Sun Media.

The law gives cabinet sweeping powers to issue orders or regulations it believes necessary to deal with emergencies such as major power cuts caused by computer glitches or civil insurrections, riots and prison revolts.

Depending on the emergency -- such as a nuclear accident -- people, vehicles, equipment, food and clothing could be mobilized.

People can be arrested, including those hording supplies. It can also restrict travel to certain areas.

Failure to comply could lead to fines and prison terms of up to five years.

Chretien has ordered eight key cabinet ministers to be in Ottawa when the clock strikes midnight Dec. 31 to handle any crisis.

Cabinet has the power to invoke the rarely used Emergencies Act, which was passed in 1988 to replace the War Measures Act -- the draconian legislation Pierre Trudeau rolled out in 1970 to quell the FLQ terrorist uprising.

The updated act is not quite as tough as the War Measures Act because it is restricted by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

"They can't arrest you just for something they think you've done, but they can arrest you for not obeying the (emergency) regulations they've made," a government insider said.

Senior officials are loath to acknowledge the potential for disaster and say Canada is nearly fully compliant to respond to Y2K problems.

They are even more reluctant to discuss the potential for terrorist threats, mass suicides and those looking to enter the afterlife in a blaze of glory.

"We don't respond to hypothetical situations," said Valerie de Montigny of the Privy Council Office.

Gov. Gen. Adrienne Clarkson has responsibility for invoking the act -- which sets in motion a chain of events, including the recall of Parliament.

At least 10 MPs and 15 senators would have to be in attendance to approve the emergency law.

Four key cabinet ministers -- Treasury Board's Lucienne Robillard, Foreign Affairs Minister Lloyd Axworthy, Industry's John Manley and Defence Minister Art Eggleton -- will run the show.

Other ministers in town that night will include Transport's David Collenette, Health Minister Allan Rock, Natural Resources Minister Ralph Goodale and Justice Minister Anne McLellan.

Public Works Minister Alfonso Gagliano will be in Montreal on Dec. 31 but has been told to be on standby to return to Parliament Hill.

Speaker Gib Parent is holding a party so he can also be called upon.

Sources say senators have been alerted and besides the 10 or so living in the Ottawa-Hull area, others living in Toronto and Montreal have been warned to be prepared to go to Ottawa.

Guy McKenzie, spokesperson for a federal group responsible for millennium contingency planning, was reluctant to discuss doomsday scenarios.

"We don't have anything to make us believe that we need to work through scenarios at this point," he said. "We have ministers in town to basically craft decisions if needed because they are the ultimate decision-making power."

Meanwhile, the Defence Department has rented $700,000 worth of generators for New Year's Eve to use in the event of Y2K power failures.

-- Helium (Heliumavid@yahoo.com), December 07, 1999

Answers

http://www.canoe.ca/LondonNews/lf.lf-12-07-0002.html

-- Helium (Heliumavid@yahoo.com), December 07, 1999.

Do you think holding a couple of months of supplies constitutes "hoarding"? After all it's personal property paid for with after tax dollars which every citizen was entitled to purchase if they chose to. I would have thought the police and army would be there to protect personal property from being stolen, not stealing it themselves via legal loopholes.

-- Interested Spectator (is@aol.com), December 07, 1999.

This is similiar to Australia's proposed law - http://www.dms.dpc.vic.gov.au/pdocs/bills/B00507/B00507I.html - allowing confiscation of "hoarded" material.

I predict England and Japan will follow along, with most of Europe to be in the same game before long. The USA and Switzerland will probably abstain...

-- Gary S. (garys_2k@yahoo.com), December 07, 1999.

Oh yea with misguided faith in thy country. Wake up and smell the roses!

The US is the first in line that will declare "martial law". They've alredy done it they just don't call it "Martial Law".

http://www.infowars.com/martiallaw.html

-- Interested Spectator (is@aol.com), December 07, 1999.

Well, if it comes down to "hoarded" food being confiscated and spread amongst the non-preppers to eat, I bet they'll want to whine about our not stockpiling the kind of foods they like!!

-- Jay Urban (Jayho99@aol.com), December 07, 1999.

Well they sound ready for more than a bump on the road.

Of course those hoarding beer had better watch out. Funny they didn't mention this on CBC last night eh?

Actually alot of this was mentioned last Dec. with a .gov report that came out.

I get a kick out of this part

"They are even more reluctant to discuss the potential for terrorist threats, mass suicides and those looking to enter the afterlife in a blaze of glory."

Wow I can see this happening in Armpit Saskabush, serious stuff indeed.

Thanks for the catch Helium

-- Brian (imager@home.com), December 07, 1999.

In theory, hoarding will apply only to actions taken AFTER the law is put into effect, since it is almost impossible to apply it to actions taken earlier. But not impossible.

Anyway, I don't have any supplies beyond those for a three-day event, so it won't hurt me any .......

I'm a polly, always have been. Everybody knows that. Right, buddies, friends and pals?

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), December 07, 1999.

Holy Sh*t! Their not gonna come take my
toilet paper are they! :-'

-- spider (spider0@usa.net), December 07, 1999.

See also Sweeping Y2K powers.

-- Lane Core Jr. (elcore@sgi.net), December 07, 1999.

This one is easy. If you value life and liberty, get the hell out of Canada...now!

-- Irving (irvingf@myremarq.com), December 07, 1999.

Leave Canada and go where? To the US? I think not! See my earlier post about the US.

-- Interested Spectator (is@aol.com), December 07, 1999.

Hey, that's ain't no "hoard". That's now the government's "pre-positioned asset". Who is John Galt, anyway?

-- Dot (dromano03@snet.com), December 07, 1999.

i'll bet the canadian government purposely leaked this story, to see what kind of reaction they will get, and will plan accordingly.

-- jocelyne slough (jonslough@tln.net), December 07, 1999.

Irving mentioned

"This one is easy. If you value life and liberty, get the hell out of Canada...now!"

If the shit hits the fan Irving life and liberty in Canada is run by Nature and not the Government. We have to hope the weather cooperates, cause there is nothing the Government can do that Nature can't squash up here. Maybe there are going to be a few more snowbirds down in Florida?

Up here fuel, heat sources, power sources, warm clothing, water, medical supplies and then food in that order would be the priority IMHO.

Up here the bulk of Canadians respect the military after the Quebec Ice Storm. They produced heroic efforts to help with the situation during that painfull time.

Always remember Liberty and Freedom do not exist in Nature, if you try that concept you will be dead if the shit hits the fan up here. You will find that the harder the life, the tighter the people. This is something that should be a lesson for the big city folks. I loved living in the arctic and the praries cause the people are so friendly and willing to help. The same feelings exist at the East coast of Canada.

I some how doubt that those crying for "Liberty and Freedom" have had the privilage of being with such people. Word such as "Liberty and Freedom" mean nothing if you don't have responsibility to others.

-- Brian (imager@home.com), December 07, 1999.

Well said Brian.

With freedom comes responsibility.

I've spent time in the Canadian Forces, and you are taught most clearly to respect the people you defend. Leave the public with an impression of professionalism, pride, and generosity.

Remember 20,000 troops isn't much in a country the size of Canada!

On another note, up here in Prince George, BC (54N 123E) this winter, so far, has been mercifully gentle (down to -10celcius at night). In the winter of 96-97 we had -40 or lower temperatures for a 3 week period. I woke up one morning in a logging camp to a howling north wind and a thermometer reading -54C.

The lack of clarity on just what "hoarding" is bothers me though. It leaves options open for gov't to "shoot from the hip"... not a good thing in times of crisis.

-- (Kurt.Borzel@gems8.gov.bc.ca), December 07, 1999.

Kurt

Yaow nice comfee temps eh? I worked outside at Mackenzie for a winter and lived in the NWT and the Yukon for years so I am no stranger to that kind of cold. Fun stuff. You have been lucky during the last winter and this one to. Hopefully the weather will continue mild for you folk. (Victoria is so nice, they usually golf down here on New years day in tournements)

I would expect the hoarding reffers to resale and not personal use. That maybe to cut down on the price gouging that may occur but it does sound loosely worded. Oh well if they want my TP and tuna they would know my address by now.

HI PTB *VBG* :o)^^ (waving to them)

-- Brian (imager@home.com), December 07, 1999.

Golfing in January...

Yes, I remember dazzling maples in November, the OCCASIONAL bit of snow lasting 2-3 days was an emergency, and swimming off the breakwater of early Feb, just before the flowers bloomed!

Brian, I'm insanely jealous, but will be warm with 4+ cord of birch.

Have a beer for me at the Sticky Wicket--I hope the gravy is still the best in the Western Hemisphere!

-- (Kurt.Borzel@gems8.gov.bc.ca), December 07, 1999.

Have a beer for me at the Sticky Wicket--I hope the gravy is still the best in the Western Hemisphere!

-- (Kurt.Borzel@gems8.gov.bc.ca), December 07, 1999.

Ha that is my step daughters hang out. I rarely hit the bars but might down a pint there at your suggestion. Usually hit Big Bad Johns, more my style.

-- Brian (imager@home.com), December 07, 1999.

I wonder if hoarding means business that watch a town starve cause their computer that checks if personal checks are good is not working, and folks have run outta cash.

-- Hokie (nn@va.com), December 07, 1999.

Interesting response Brian...I appreciate your thoughtful comments. Your list of priorities is on target as well. However, I feel that your blind faith in your government versus your lumberjack (may I use that term?) way of life is seriously misguided, IMHO.

Yes, it is true that nature is a powerful force to be reckoned with, especially in northern Canada. Unfortunately, it is also a completely arbitrary force that respects nothing. If your fuel and food are rationed or confiscated by your beloved government, you will still be just as dead after a night or two in Arctic cold. I should point out that not everybody in Canada, or anywhere else for that matter, is ultimately prepared to survive the sort of conditions you describe.

My overall view is really pretty simple on this issue. Like the U.S., the Canadian people are fine...its the damn government that spoils everything. With all due respect to your views and feelings, I would like to say that even with just 20,000 active duty troops on the prowl , you would be stunned at the heavy hand of Martial Law, or whatever they plan to call Operation Abacus when it goes into effect. With the infrastructure down and the temp an ungodly -10F or whatever, is NOT the time to suddenly hope for charity from a goon with an L1A1 .308 poked in your face. At that point, you are in just as much peril as anybody else anywhere else.

Regards,

Irving

-- Irving (irvingf@myremarq.com), December 07, 1999.

JUST FOR THE RECORD:

Irving:

"I'm a lumberjack and I'm okay...I work all night and I sleep all day..." --Monty Python. YEAH!

The Canadian Forces never did use the L1A1, they used the FN-C1 (same basic rifle, different modifications). Now they use the FN-C7 and C8 as the issue battle rifle (Canadianized versions of the M16-A1).

When I was an infantryman I was duly trained in Aid-to-Civil-Power operations, which included, among other details...

-"you will give three clear and spaced warnings before sending rounds downrange." -"you will call him/her sir or ma'am even if you've fixed bayonets and provide a show of force" (read muzzle-in-the-face). -"you will treat all with respect and kindness, reserving a show of force, or the application of force, for preserving life--yours or innocents."

All in all, I have the qualified opinion that the Canadian Forces are not a threat--it's the politicians that are to be feared. Anyone who disagrees with that has never lived in BC under the NDP...

-- (Kurt.Borzel@gems8.gov.bc.ca), December 07, 1999.

Eh! - What's the fuss?

Everybody knows all the problems (and squirrels) are going to stay north of the border......after all, we've been told all of them are fixed down here.

No problems, mate. (No solutions, either, maybe, but no problems.)

-- Robert A. Cook, PE (Marietta, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), December 07, 1999.

Well Irving as Kurt mentions living in BC and dealing with the politics out here is just to rediculous under any party not just the NDP. What a gong show. Got to give Kline credit for doing some hard things to get Alberta out of the hole and now it is looking very secure. I have very little faith in the local government and Ottawa may as well be in another country as far as I am concerned. That is the way they feel about BC anyway.

The part I dispute is picturing the Army as jack booted thugs that are going to run roughshod over the rights of law abiding folks. Can't see it happening. Of course my awareness of Canada is mostly in the West and I am not familure with Ontario and Quebec that much. Out here the Army and the Canadian Gov would be hard pressed to arrange any situation that disrupts the rights of folks. There is just to little .gov and to much land. Idealism is great on either sides of the coin but reality has to rear its head.

If you have views of Ontario that maybe fine but the west is just a bit differant IMHO. And I know that where I live your rantings would be labled as a joke.

By the way I was a fisherman for 5 years and not a lumberjack although I have worked with lumber in some form alot over the last 20 odd years.

Haulers of water and huers of wood. Those days are rapidly leaving us.

So much for the blue collar workers. I am proud to have known the lifestyle.

You are right about the ability of folks to survive in conditions that I have discribed, most couldn't. This I find deplorable. The Ice Storm was an indication of that. Quite a shame.

That is why I hate hearing the comp geeks making recommendations on surviving Y2K if it gets bad. Peter deJagar has no clue. Trouble is neither do the PTB.

-- Brian (imager@home.com), December 07, 1999.

I have suddenly become a polly, WHATEVER happens is just going to be a Bump in the Road, no need to worry about silly rules and regulations, in three days it will all be fixed, our Government has said so.

Besides come Jan 1 I am going camping for an extended period of time, its a great time of the year to get away from modern things like radio and television and to experience the great outdoors.

-- Stanley Lucas (StanleyLucas@WebTv.net), December 07, 1999.

During the ice storm, I never saw or heard of the Canadian army carrying weapons, unless you consider chainsaws and axes weapons.

And yes, they were very polite. :-))

-- John (jh@NotReal.ca), December 07, 1999.

John,Don't confuse a icestorm with martial law, these are two very different Canadian Cats.the ice storm cat is a friendly little pussy while martial law might be a raging tiger. I'm sure if the hammer comes down you will be able to tell the difference.,My fear for our Canadian brothers and sisters to the north is that Lebatts and Molsons are not compliant.Can you picture 1/3 of your population that are confirmed juicers rampaging thru your cities trying to get their fix? We may have to set up road blocks at all border crossings to keep the thirsty minions from charging south. You bachelors and batchelorettes better make tracks to the make a date bureaus and find a nice fat partner.It's going to be a long cold winter and you'll soon discover what Alaskans have known since 98, smaller fires and warmer nights go hand in hand with the biggies.

-- Biggie Lardo (hotcelluite@warm and ready.com), December 08, 1999.

Biggie, sorry but I have lived through Martial Law up here too during the FLQ crisis in Quebec when the Separatists were blowing up the mailboxes. No problem with OUR military then either, unless you happened to be one of the separatists rounded up for detention and questioning. But that kinda goes with being a terrorist or a declared revolutionary, don't you think?

I must admit it was interesting having soldiers posted outside important buildings such as the telco head office where I worked. Figured I should have got danger pay though. :-))

-- John (jh@NotReal.ca), December 08, 1999.