I have been back and forth on whether to spend the money to buy a small solar system. I have found a source where I can get 2 6o watt panels, inverter, etc. for about 1500 bucks. The batteries are deep cell. I basically want it for small appliances and lighting. I can get in within 5 days. I am running out of time I know. I have NOT bought a generator because of the gasoline storage problem, noise and relatively short life. I just hate to spend this kind of money on something that would absolutely be useless if we dont have a real collapse of the grid. I could make do with my Alladins lanterns, wood stove, etc until the power comes up again, however, IF it is bad as some of you say, maybe, I should spend the dough. I need serious feedback. Flames, jokes etc not really wanted. Thanks in advance. What are some of you doing about this.

-- Kings Kid (beprepared@y2k.net), December 04, 1999

Answers

I could sure use the info too. Have avoided the generators also. But just "small" appliances? What about refrigerator?

And as for it being "absolutely be useless if we don't have a real collapse of the grid".... WHY? That might be true of a generator, but won't the solar panels provide some of your power needs for the forseeable future, and thus pay for themselves eventually, WHETHER OR NOT the grid goes down? Guess I don't understand.

-- Linda (lwmb@psln.com), December 04, 1999.

Even thought I've never used a solar powered system [no home...no need, I suppose] I think they are a good idea regardless of whether SHTF or not. Might evaluate the cost of the system vs. the cost of electricity over a year or two....may make that money back in the long run. I have/had plans for a motorhome that included a solar power sys and a solar water heater, among things. I just think you can't go wrong with it if it's a good system. Only other considerations is:

A] Are your preps ready? Can you use more of whatever?

B] Can you swing the money for the sys and still have money for future uses?

-- Satanta (satanta@zdnetmail.com), December 04, 1999.

Yes, I believe solar is the way to go,but unless you have enough money to put in a truly massive solar array, and still want to go solar, you must forget all the 110v appliances you now have and go strictly 12v for lights and radio. Furthermore, unless you have really good batteries (like Concords) and a good regulator (like Prostar) you're system is not likely to last for more than a a couple of years. Also, you need to get cut crystal panels (like Solarex). The sprayed silicone panels can be down to 50% of output within a couple of years.

I have been using solar for 15 years now, if you want more info, e- mail me and i'll give you further.

-- elskon (elskon@bigfoot.com), December 04, 1999.

Kings Kid: I purchased two deep cells and one small solar panel from Cheaper Than Dirt. I have already tried the panel out on charging the batteries and it does well. The batteries with the inverters can run my computer etc easily. Large amp draw appliances would deplete them rather rapidly however. We purchased the small panel as a backup to our generator primarily for heat. Our fireplace has a small 0.5 Amp fan that blows warm air out from around the fireplace and keeps the house warm. The battery will give over 100 hours operation for the fan. The other person who suggested a large system was correct in doing so IF you want to start powering large amp items.

-- Neil G.Lewis (pnglewis1@yahoo.com), December 04, 1999.

Kings Kid (I like that name - I'm one, too)

There's a lot of ways to go. If money is tight then a couple small panels, deep cycle batteries, a charge controller and inverter will power a few lights, radios, etc. To run any large loads for an extended period you'll need a large battery bank, lots of panels and/or wind charger and large inverters.

Good batteries (deep cycle like Trojan L-16, Concordes, etc.) are expensive but they last much longer and can be drained further than the typical Walmart RV/Marine battery. Plus, most of the larger ones are 6V and you put them in series/parallel to get the reserve and voltage you need. Many of the larger installations run on 24V or 48V because it is more efficient to do so.

Forget running the washing machine, refrigerator, etc. and other large appliances on a couple 12V RV batteries and a small inverter.

You need to do a power inventory to determine what your needs are. Or - if you buy a small system, you figure out what your available storage is, what you can realistically expect for recharging on a daily basis and that is your maximum power budget. Let's take a quick example so you can start to understand:

[Flame alert: These numbers aren't real - just for example, OK?]

(2) 12V RV/marine batteries, each rated at 100 Amp-hours reserve

Watts = Amps * Volts and Watt-Hours (WH)= Amp-Hours * Volts

Total Watt-Hours available = 2 batteries * 12V * 100 AH = 2400 Watt-Hours

You shouldn't drain a 12V RV battery further than 50%, so you have 1200 WH available reserve when fully charged. So, for 12V loads (lights, radios, etc.) you could use these 1200 WH as 12 W for 100 hours, 100 W for 12 hours, etc.

If you want to use 110V AC appliances, you need an inverter to go from 12V DC to 110V AC. The typical small ones might be 90% efficient. So, fully charged your 1200 WH will provide:

.90 * 1200 WH = 1080 WH At 110V thats: 1080 WH / 110V = about 9.8 AH available

Let's do some real figuring now:

Let's say you buy 4 compact flourescent lights that use 17W and give the light of a 60W bulb. You'll use each of these for a total of 4 hours a day. You're also going to run a small TV for 4 hours a day and it takes 100W. And, maybe you'll run a small appliance that uses 400W but only for 1/2 hour a day. Let's figure the total required power:

Lights: 4 lights * 17W * 4 hours = 272 Watt Hours TV: 100W * 4 hours = 400 Watt Hours Appliance: 400W * .5 hours = 200 Watt Hours

Total power consumed per day: 872 Watt Hours

You have 1080 Watt Hours available with the 2 batteries fully charged so you're within your power budget. Now you have to make sure your solar panels are large enough to recharge them within a day to keep the charge up. This assumes that you'll have full sun every day!

(2) 60W panels = 120W I don't know where you live but let's assume you get 5 hours of good sunlight a day. So 5 hours * 120 W = 600 Watt-hours. Not enough to recharge you batteries for the load we just figured above. You'll need at least 3 or 4 60W panels to do that.

Now, with the above, you can see the general math and how to figure your needs, etc.

Here's a couple of sites that has some helpful info:

http://www.homepower.com

http://www.windsun.com/Small_Systems/Home_basics1.htm#Basic Parts

I take Home Power magazine and it is excellent. You can download tons of good articles from their site. Their Homepower CD's of articles are great as well.

Overall, I believe even a small system with a couple panels, batteries, inverter, etc. is well worth it. The ability to run a few lights, radios, etc. is invaluable and very reassuring when the power goes out. I would highly recommend doing so if you can swing the initial costs. Over time, as your budget allows and as you learn more about it, you can always add to the system and upgrade it.

Lord bless,

Charlie

-- charlie (chicks@ix.netcom.com), December 04, 1999.

I did not buy a generator. Made this decision based on my estimate of how long the troubles will last. I don't expect to see modern industrial economy rebuilt in my lifetime. I didn't want to try to store a lifetime supply of any fossil fuel. Apart from the prohibitive cost, I don't want to be living on top of a bomb!

I got some panels, deep cycle batteries and an inverter. I also got some LED (light emitting diode) and low wattage fluorescent lamps. Picked up some small solar chargers for recharging my Nicad and nickel-metal hydride flashlight batteries.

I also got some Dietz and Petromax lanterns and some of those lamps that burn paraffin oil.

I also got plenty of candles.

I'm using a woodstove for heating and cooking.

I suppose I could live without light after sundown, but I'd like to avoid it.

The system you are considering could certainly support my lifestyle. If you can get it without busting your budget for essentials, go for it.

Be aware, however, that even good quality lead/acid deep cycle batteries don't last forever. There are specialty batteries that will go 20-30 years, but they are very expensive. For more info on this, go to http://www.mrsolar.com.

-- Not Whistlin' Dixie (not_whistlin_dixie@yahoo.com), December 04, 1999.

All you ever wanted to know about solar and more:

http://209.52.183.182/juice_page.htm

-- TruthSeeker (truthseeker@ seektruth.always), December 04, 1999.

For another viewpoint on solar power systems and Y2K preparation, look at this (item #3):

http://www.y2ksafeminnesota.com/dontneed.htm

my site: www.y2ksafeminnesota.com

-- MinnesotaSmith (y2ksafeminnesota@hotmail.com), December 04, 1999.

Probably 10 years ago, Arco corp was leasing solar systems. One of those rent to own type deals. Payments were about equal to your electric bill, and you were hooked up to the grid, which supplied your electricity during the night.

that seemed to be a pretty good deal back then. I don't know if it ever took off, but haven't heard anything more about it, so probably there was no significant demand for the service.

I studied the alternative energy systems back then, when it seemed that the cost of traditional fuels would force development of other energy sources. Generally, the use of alternative energy was more costly than fossil (I'm not sure if that is an accurate term)fuels, and only people who placed a great importance on not using such fuels were willing to spend the extra money to go that route.

I guess that if the grid goes down, we will just learn to live without electricity for awhile. My guess is that eventually it will be up again. Electricity is something that old order Amish have lived without for generations, and they have got along pretty well. I won't like it much, but we can manage.

$1500 for 120 watts isn't much bang for the buck. You could buy about 1200 gallons of kero for that much. That would light your house for about 10 years, and you could also cook and heat with it.

Just another opinion to add to the confusion. :-)

gene

-- gene (ekbaker@essex1.com), December 04, 1999.

Thanks everyone for your input. Very nice of many of you to go into such detail. Thanks so much for your investment of time in order to help me. God Bless

-- Kings Kid (beprepared@y2k.net), December 04, 1999.

Charlie says, in relation to sizing your system:

Charlie, this is as very good explanation. You have a better understanding of power requirements than many of the "experts" on the internet, many of whom don't know a kilowatt hour from a kilowatt.

I'm all in favor of solar energy, but have to tell you folks that, if you incorporate batteries into your system, there is NO PAYBACK. It will cost you more to replace the batteries than the cost of buying power from the power company.

So, if you are buying this for emergencies, it might be worth it, though there are many cheaper alternatives (e.g. propane, kerosene, etc). But if you think you can eventually pay off the cost of the solar (including batteries) with the value of the electricity produced by your system, sorry, ain't happening.

If you limit the system to appliances which don't need battery storage of power produced by the solar panels, like water pumps and fans, you might eventually pay back the initial investement, as many of the components you'll be purchasing have a much longer life expectancy.

By the way, the reason I included the above quote by Charlie is to show you just how small an amount of power you will get. 872 watt hours per day is equivalent to just under five cents per day where I live (five and a half cents per kilowatt hour). About two and a half cents per day up in southern Washington, where my son lives. It will be more like a dime a day in some of the more expensive parts of the USA. To figure the cost where you live, multiply 0.872 times your cost per kilowatt hour.

Go Solar!

ALK

-- Al K. Lloyd (all@ready.now), December 05, 1999.

ALK:

I totally agree with you about payback. Large solar installations have a payback primarily when the cost of getting commercial power to them is prohibitive. I've seen folks who are building in some rural areas where the power company would charge them $30,000 or more to bring poles, transformers, etc. to them. That is a good reason to start thinking solar!

I have another way to look at it for emergency use though. What is the value of the power when it isn't there? If you have a storm that can take power down for weeks (happened here) or other outside events such as Y2k, terrorism, etc. - then what is the value of those KWH's if you either need need or desire them. I think people would pay way over $0.10 per KWH during a cold winter storm if they had the option. Of course, there are others that have to have power for medical devices, animals, etc. It's easier to justify in those situations. A generator is also an option if you have the ability to store lots of fuel and maintain it.

Each one has to assess the need for their family and location. We could get by without power. We have a woodstove, kerosene heaters, propane, lanterns, candles, etc. We also do a lot of camping and have the gear and the knowledge of how to rough it. We have 5 kids and have chosen to provide a backup here for lights, well, etc. It is very reassuring and comforting to have the power backup. I believe especially so if the power may go out for extended periods of time and/or be very unstable and you just don't know if/when the power may be back on again. It's one thing to know that after a storm the power will be back up within a few hours/days. Y2K and related events don't give me that comforting feeling. The value of that power rises accordingly.

For me and my house - we will follow the Lord. We also have solar....

Charlie

-- Charlie (chicks@ix.netcom.com), December 05, 1999.

Since I just posted the following to the preps form I'll just copy over here...think you'll find it useful.....

We've been publishing the type of info you're after for 12 years now in our magazine and there are numerous books that also contain the info. It's WAY beyond the scope of what I could post here to lay out all the information you need....but...

The magazine crew sat down and listed the articles which we've run over the years we though covered most of the basics. We were considering re-publishing them in a magazine format but I suggested we put them on our website and give them away. The publisher went for that (I think it will help our magazine/book/CDROM sales in the long run) so you can now get lots of useful info for free at our website (as well as the electronic version of the current issue of our magazine...for free as well).

Yes, this stuff all works. I've been off-grid for years as are many of my friends and many thousands of our readers around the world. I hesitate to try and give pat, short answers to complex questions. Many people who implement solar power systems end up unhappy with their performance...hate to say this but it's true. You need to understand your energy needs, how to conserve and get the most from a system and what the system will actually deliver. A good starting point is to download the article LOADCALC.PDF from our website and use it to analyze your projected power consumption and uses. It's not too late but you better "get on the stick" quickley.

Visit http://www.homepower.com (tons of links to dealers and other organizations/info too)

Don Kulha Home Power Magazine, "The Hands-On Journal of Home-Made Power"

-- Don Kulha (dkulha@vom.com), December 05, 1999.

Don - Good comments, thank you.

Kings (and others) - To your original point, there is a tremendous difference in the "need" and the size of the system when comparing emergency use and day-to-day use, or total replacement of the outside power supply.

Your solution is a good one fundementally - and it is the way I'm going, adding to it in the future to reduce power bills by a little bit in the summer. Totally replacing the grid, without massive tax relief or government subsidies, isn't practical now for most people who already have wires hooked up. But emergency power - readily available, rechargeable in the sun, but limited in size - is viable, and at the price comparable to only one, two or three car payments.

But, solar/battery/invertor/backup charger is a viable emergency system: with several tremedous advantages: completely silent, it doesn't bother your neighbors at night, or anytime. (A generator wakes up everybody within blocks - you've heard the gas lawnmowers on Sunday mornings! Even if you only need a few watts to shave or use the downstais light in the basement.) The power is always available - no waiting, no going outside, no hookups, no power cables through a window or power panel wall penetration.

The generator can create much more power than most battery/invertor combinations: but at a tremedous price in fuel and length of time. The generator can only run about 5 hours/2 gallon at full load; about 8-12 hours at half load. After that - you need more fuel. A battery/invertor/solar panel - if loads are reduced to level of the solar inoput - can run forever.

Let me know the size invertor you are looking at - this controls the size installation you should consider, and what appliances you are thinkning of running: full time, and part time. I know some sources (including 40 watt amorphous silcon panels at 3.00 per watt) that might help you. Also, full emergency packages at various prices.

Since I started assembling my own from components before these packages came out, I'm not using any "pre-packaged" method - but can applaud its appearance and portability. 1500.00 should get you a very good system, but get hold of me.

-- Robert A. Cook, PE (Marietta, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), December 06, 1999.

I'm really glad to see the interest this post has generated, so to speak.

Charlie says, "I think people would pay way over $0.10 per KWH during a cold winter storm if they had the option"

Charlie, you aren't saying that these folks would be trying to heat their homes with solar generated electricy, are you?

Incidentally, the other Charlie, at mrsolar.com, estimates that the actual cost per kwh for solar power works out to be in the $0.45 range, if you consider all the costs (except recycling, I suppose).

You're right, though; I'm sure that there are lots of people who would pay a lot more than this, if they needed the electricity bad enough.

I was THIS close to buying a solar water pump set up. But I've heard enough positive reporting about the power companies that I changed my mind. But I have artesian water. I decided I'd rather haul water by hand from the well to the house in the event that we have a power outage long enough to outlast my 2500 gallon storage tank.

That's the trouble with this uncertaity! If there were better info on what is REALLY going to happen, I'd maybe be more likely to go solar.

If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

ALK

-- Al K. Lloyd (all@ready.now), December 06, 1999.