O/T ? Defend your rights!

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I'm sure you all saw the brutality on tv tonight. Here's a few links if you want to let your opinion be known:

U.S. Senators: http://www.senate.gov

Seattle Mayor's Office: mayors.office@ci.seattle.wa.us

Seattle City Council: martha.choe@ci.seattle.wa.us; richard.conlin@ci.seattle.wa.us; sue.donaldson@ci.seattle.wa.us; jan.drago@ci.seattle.wa.us; nick.licata@ci.seattle.wa.us; richard.mciver@ci.seattle.wa.us; margaret.pageler@ci.seattle.wa.us; tina.podlodowski@ci.seattle.wa.us; peter.steinbrueck@ci.seattle.wa.us

SeattleTimes Newspaper: wto@seattletimes.com

You think Y2K is bad, WTO will make all the glitches we'll experience look like a daydream. WTO is the true NIGHTMARE! I've already e-mailed my senator and let him know how I feel. I'll back my words with votes too - I LOVE my liberty!

-- Deb M. (vmcclell@columbus.rr.com), December 01, 1999

Answers

I live in the Seattle area..

Brutality? You mean the part where the punks tore up downtown, set fires, trashed and looted the Starbucks and stole 5 dollar bags of coffee?!!

Please! I don't like the WTO either, but lets keep the facts straight. The protesters throughout the day were largly peacefull. In the evening, 200 bums trashed Seattle. If anything, the police were TOO tolerant.

Protesting is protected by our constitution. Destroying property, setting fires, verbally assaulting police officers and the like is NOT. The Mayor was too lienient, that's why downtown is now trashed.

Bryce

-- Bryce (Bryce@nospam.com), December 01, 1999.


Deb,

It's my understanding that there have been more injuries of bystanders by "demonstrators" then demonstrators by police.

That being the case, are you sickened by the pain caused by the demonstrators as well, or is that different?

Which is brutal?

-- Randers (coyotecanyon@hotmail.com), December 01, 1999.


Bryce,

I agree with you about the people who were vandals. My sympathy and heart does go out to those whose businesses and/or cars were damaged in the process - that might not mean much now, but I am sincere. I hope the VANDALS are caught and prosecuted. HOWEVER, there were peaceful protestors who were assaulted by the police AND at one time, one of the Seattle police officers tried to stop the CBS cameraman from filming one of the attacks! That is blatant CENSORSHIP. It was on TV on CBS. I saw this with my very own eyes.

Many of the vandals weren't even caught because the police were attacking the protestors, NOT going after the vandals.

-- Deb M. (vmcclell@columbus.rr.com), December 01, 1999.


Hi Deb,

I'm not a 'cop cheerleader', but they did show a lot of restraint. I saw a few video clips in hours of footage where police appeared to be in the wrong. That happens when opposing parties are in close proximity even if one side wears a uniform.

The police didn't have the manpower to make arrests (their claim) yesterday. They were badly outnumbered and were in a stand-off for most of last night. I think they were suprised, after all, they assumed that they had negotiated with the protest groups already. They were not ready for the 200 non-protesting punks in the evening.

I was going to go downtown to protest the WTO, but I won't now because of what happened last night. Things need to cool down, and I think it will help to stay the hell away for a while.

I've seen these jokers on Pike street and downtown before. They were just looking for an excuse to trash things and spray paint the city.

Now no-one is looking at the WTO issues, just the punks.

-- Bryce (Bryce@nospam.com), December 01, 1999.


.....These were agents profocatuer to discredit the protestations of those that are knowledgable about the evil behind the WTO. Where were all of the protestors back in '94 when Clinton called a lame-duck session of Congress back to the district of criminals in late December to pass this 23,000 page monstrosity that not one Congresscritter took the time to read?! The vote went through with the diminished numbers of members present, (many of whom had already been voted out of office), and we had Gatt shoved down the throats of the American people, inspite of 80% of those polled opposing it.

.....This also created the WTO and allowed our trade policy to be de facto initiated from Geneva, Switzerland via secret tribunal that makes decisions in private with NO APPEAL!!!

.....Too many of our citizens sat watching Roseanne or idiotic sports to care that their sovereignty had just been stolen, (bread and circuses?), or do they even know what sovereignty is? The chickens of America's political inactivity are now coming home to roost.

-- Patrick (pmchenry@gradall.com), December 01, 1999.



Hi all:

Let's reason with each other here for a minute:

A. If people thought they were important to leaders, and that leaders really did as the people wanted, people wouldn't protest.

B. If leaders really had the best interests of their representatives constantly on their minds, they wouldn't ignore them and force people to resort to more extreme methods of protest.

C. THEORETICALLY, in democracies (like yours?) the people decide their collective future. PRACTICALLY this does not happen because leaders, benevolent or malevolent, enjoy power, and will not willingly give it away (ie bowing to the wishes of the people)

D. In tyrannical states, demonstration is the only means of protest the people have before the state, because collectively they can damage the state, whether physically (sabotage) or psychologically (bad public image). If this isn't true, why does the plight of the Kurds keep the international community pressuring Iraq? What about Kosovo?

E. Try to take power away from the people, and use it against their wishes, you INSTANTLY lose democracy. If peaceful protests don't get the attention of the leaders, people will resort to damaging the state, either publicly, or materially.

This is not opinion. This is fact, substantiated by over 4,000 years of human history (civilizations).

Your government doesn't care. So make a scene, now people, normally asleep at their internet terminals, will be startled awake and MAYBE LEARN SOME WISDOM FOR A CHANGE!

[rant off]

-- (Kurt.Borzel@gems8.gov.bc.ca), December 01, 1999.


Kurt...

.....Who told you this was a democracy? Jefferson called democracy "mobocracy" that resulted in a tyranny of the majority, and ALWAYS led to despotism. You were taught a very silly thing.

-- Patrick (pmchenry@gradall.com), December 01, 1999.


Deb, You are so correct! It is now becoming so much similar to a police state where our constitutional right to peacably assemble to address our grievences are being taken away. I live in the Seattle area soon to be moving back to Wyoming. I just cannot believe what I am seeing and hearing. LIKE YOU AM SO SO SO DISMAYED!!!!!

-- Kayla (kayla@jetcity.com), December 01, 1999.

You think things are bad now... wait until February.

-- (Kurt.Borzel@gems8.gov.bc.ca), December 01, 1999.

Seattle residents: I know you're angry, but please pause to think about the makeup of that crowd our there. Let's play "just pretend"

Just pretend that you'd just stepped out of your store or home to see what was going on, and suddenly a dozen guys in riot gear surround you and scream at you to kneel down. You try and explain that you are a resident, not a protestor, but they don't want to hear it. They are afraid, and they have a job to do.

You are siezed and plastic cuffed, and dragged over to a pile of other people, most of whom are protestors. Maybe there's a genuine rioter in there too. You are frightened and hurt, but you still think it's fair treatment, it's an honest mistake, it's to protect you and your property. So far, I'm with you.

They then start calmly, almost casually, spraying you with a chemical irritant. You are subdued, bound and kneeling. They aren't performing crowd control, they are inflicting punitive torture. As you roll around, screaming in agony and unable to even rub your eyes, what do you think then? Does your heart still swell with pride?

It's harsh but fair - as long as it's not happening to you, right?

The scary part isn't what they are doing, it's that they don't care who they are doing it to.

-- Colin MacDonald (roborogerborg@yahoo.com), December 02, 1999.



I think some Seattle residents are beginning to wake up now - last night on CBS news, footage was shown where three police "officers" ganged up on a single protestor and stripped his sign from him. This protestor looked like he was walking away from the police, and yet they ran up to him, roughed him up, and took his sign.

Also, and more importantly, footage was shown where an "officer" ran up to a young man, kicked him in his privates and SHOT HIM POINT- BLANK with a rubber bullet!

An older woman was also interviewed by CBS and she said that she was sick of the police brutality and decided to come out and protest (I believe at one of the colleges?). She said "Come out and gas us too, come on gas the grannies, gas the babies too - they'll be here." She also commented on the cowardice of the police to attack that young man by kicking him in the *****, etc...

Seattle police have shown their true colors, and the Mayor and Police Chief are unfit for office, they should be removed immediately.

-- Deb M. (vmcclell@columbus.rr.com), December 03, 1999.


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