Salmon; Cherri is misinformed, Flint lacks the information.

greenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread

Folks:

I don't know why we are discussing this subject on this forum. But the named people have raised it. It does raise questions about their credibility in other areas. Cherri: all salmon die after spawning [don't think so; it is species dependent]. Flint; no data is available on salmon mortality. Don't really think so. What does this tell us ab out their judgement in other areas. I don't know. I really like Flint.

Best wishes,,,

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), November 27, 1999

Answers

I respect Flint; although I don't agree with him all of the time. I just don't know why he won't respond.

Best wishes,,,

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), November 27, 1999.


I lived in coastal Alaska for 30 years. Pacific salmon, of which there are five distinct species, die after spawning. If I remember correctly, though, I think Atlantic salmon do not. But all Pacific salmon (King, or Chinook; Sockey, or Red; Silver, or Coho; Pink, or Humpback; Chum, or Dog) all die after spawning.

-- Liz Pavek (lizpavek@hotmail.com), November 27, 1999.

Liz:

You have that right. Remember the taxonomists; All trout are salmons. My point is that Cherri is so: well so Cherri. Well we want her to respond on the taxonomic level. Good of you to respond. Remember the landlocks [really sockeye].

Best wishes,,,

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), November 27, 1999.


http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~dpugh/cycle.html

Spawned-out salmon, called kelts or black salmon, return to the ocean or overwinter in the river.

http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/accounts/salmo/s._salar

Some Atlantic salmon die after spawning but many survive to spawn a second time; a very few salmon spawn three or more times.

http://h2o.seagrant.wisc.edu/communications/Publications/Fish/atlantic salmon.html

Though Atlantic salmon may spawn two or three times during their lives, self-propagating stocks have not yet developed. But fisheries scientists still hope that some experimental strain of Atlantic salmon will be found that has the genetic makeup to survive and reproduce in the Great Lakes.

-- Smoke it (or@grill.it), November 27, 1999.


Smoke it:

You are right. The point of the thread is not to deal with salmon genetics. It is to deal with Cherri. She started the discusion. In my opinion she is incorrect in this area. What does this tell us about her value in other areas? I don't know. That is up to the members of this forum.

Best wishes,,,,

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), November 27, 1999.



Z:

I'm certainly not an expert on salmon. On the thread in question, I didn't feel the metaphor being used was descriptive. I hazily recall that mortality in fish is highest as eggs or fry, which (if true) would have undermined the point being made anyway. I wouldn't be surprised if we have some mortality rates between ocean and spawning beds, since such numbers are important to the industry.

If your point is that since I'm not a salmon expert (which I've never studied), I *therefore* cannot be knowledgeable about y2k (which I have studied), then I think you're missing the boat. Is that your point? Or are you just needling for amusement? If so, then I should point out that "data" is plural, so that would be "no data ARE available." Back atcha!

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), November 27, 1999.


I almost died after spawning one time.

-- Porky (Porky@in.cellblockD), November 27, 1999.

Flint:

Your are correct. You haven't studied the information. It is available for "native" runs. Of course they are all native for some rivers in Alaska. The point is not you, of course, you are a person. The point is about Cherri; unlike you and me, she seems to have a direct contact with God and can know what will happen. Of course she won't respond, it would destroy her Godshead position.

Best wishes,,,,

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), November 27, 1999.


Z:

Yeah, Cherri tends to declaim in absolutes. But when you think about it, that's a pretty common practice round these parts. However, I've noticed that a willingness to dig in, admit big gaps in information and triagulate on probabilties through analysis of what little we have doesn't fare much better. Approved slogans are the order of the day. When it comes to y2k, that's MUCH easier than hard thinking, and probably as likely to be correct, considering that declaimers are found across the spectrum.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), November 27, 1999.


I'm sorry, I used the analogy of salmon in a response to a Flint post.

Flint, the idea here is NOT how MUCH "digging in and thinking" is occuring, everyone is thinking. The point constantly is - If there's even a slight chance that civilization could go caput, that what I DEPEND ON -MIGHT CEASE TO BE - then maybe I should PREPARE for that change, since I (we) have some knowledge of WHEN that might happen. I don't KNOW when a comet might hit the world and obliterate it, but I do KNOW when computers (that control everything I depend on) might compleletly screw up like never before.

Whether someone is arriving at that realization through some type of "non-thinking" or not is BESIDE the POINT. It's intellectual masturbation to debate it. If someone sees the threat, they prepare, just like YOU! Who cares if the "correct" analytical process was used?

-- Gregg (g.abbott@starting-point.com), November 28, 1999.



I have served on the Technical Advisory Committee of the Congressionaly established Klamath Basin fishery task force. (This is West coast.) Much of my career in the past decade has been involved with salmon and steelhead, which are both "anadromous fish." (These fish are born in fresh water; spend a portion of life cycle in salt water; and return to fresh water to spawn.) We have Chinook and Coho salmon and steelhead trout in our rivers. (We also have candlefish, eel and green sturgeon, which are also anadromous.) The chinook and coho salmon die after spawning. The steelhead do not always. The steelhead may return to the ocean and come back to spawn again. This is also true of the variant runs - fall, winter, spring and summer.

-- marsh (armstrng@sisqtel.net), November 28, 1999.

Further clarification of the last sentence is that regardless of the seasonal "run," all of a particular species (coho, chinook, steelhead,) will follow the same spawning regime in regards to post-spawning survival. The only exception would be land-locked fish that have lost the opportunity to be anadromous, such as some trout.

-- marsh (armstrng@sisqtel.net), November 28, 1999.

Moderation questions? read the FAQ