In my area I have had a terrible time of finding the ususally over abundant stock of .223 rounds. Generally you can purchase PMC or similar @ 20rds per for about $3.90. In the last month (or two) the shelves have been bare for the "good stuff" such as named and similar. All that is available (in quantity) is Russian and Chinese, which is #1 non-reloadable and, #2 cheap powder recipe which makes it more prone to gunk up.

Dealers tell me that they expect no availability in quantity of other makes throughout the end of the year and into the first several months of the new year. Speculation is that Y2K demands have stressed supply and supply cannot catch up for months. Also I am told that the feds have restrcited the importation of makes such as PMC for untold reasons, but this restriction is expected to be lifted sometime into March, maybe. Are you having the same problems with supply in your area ? Have you checked recently ? I would be highly interested in any feedback on this item.

-- Rob (maxovrdrv51@hotmail.com), November 27, 1999

Answers

cheaper-than-dirt.com has bulk FMJ 5.56 nato at good prices.Make sure to buy hard ball!(you did want to be able to punch through body armor,didn't you?)Bulk ammo will certianly increase in value!

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), November 27, 1999.

www.ammoman.com is a great place to get it. I paid $145.00 for 1000 rnds of 55gr. Wolf ammo (russian). Very good ammo, no problems, great accuracy. Also, try sportsmans guide at www.sportsmansguide.com for decent prices.

-- Greg (skipy1@prodigy.net), November 27, 1999.

Ammo is still available in N Texas. "Cheaperthandirt" is in Fort Worth. Steel cases are hard on your chamber, aluminum cases create metal flakes which can cause jams. Use Brass when possible. .223/5.56 is over rated. Better accuracy at long range (300+ yds) but low stopping power. Most shooting is done at UNDER 200 yds. Go with .30/.308/30-06/30-30/7.62 or similar for rifle. Much better stopping power under 200 yds. For pistol I prefer 9mm. less power than .45 but cheaper, more accurate, higher mag capacity. Using a .45 on less than an elephant is like driving thumbtacks with a sledge hammer. Wife uses a .380 PPK knockoff by Bersa. With Hydra-Shok ammo, is very close to 9mm. Can never go wrong with 12 ga.

Sorry, I'm sure I PO'ed someone, but that's my gun opinion in a nutshell.

-- MegaMe (CWHale67@aol.com), November 27, 1999.

Sorry MegaMe. I do appreciate your input but I do highly disagree with you. I am an avid shooter and proponent of the .223 for what it is made to do. I have owned (and do own) many. It is highly effective. Not for Elk or Moose mind you, but for it's intended purpose, it is excellent. It gets it's over-rated status from people applying it for use other than it's capacity. I wouldn't put a Dodge Ram on the strip and expect it to outrun the Corvette. You are right on the case cautions.

For pistol I prefer the .45 for exactly that, stopping power. If I have to use my handgun it is because I cannot use my rifle. I want all the edge I can get even if your "slightly overinflated" (*grin*) scenario about the elephant is true. The recoil is manageable and quick to return to LOS and makes an excellent combat round.

I have a .308 for longer ranges and am VERY pleased with it's accuracy and knockdown potential. Though not chassied on a "battle rifle", my .308 will walk the distance and please me with results. A very nice calibure selection in the event of a shortage (for obvious reasons) as well as the .223 calibure. My .45 will suffer in a shortage but I wouldn't use it for weekend target shooting either should things get sour. Conserve, conserve, conserve.

A 12 guage is ideal for short-range (-70 yds.), no closed quarters. Room to room I opt for my .45. You cannot navigate a 12 guage around corners too well. It will be easily snagged from your hands. The .380 ? I wouldn't want to get hit by it, but I am indeed a believer that it is far too inadequate for one-shot-stop confidence. Mechanical reliability of the weapon may also be in question unless you have chosen a time tried piece. Bersa is questionable IMHO but that is ONLY my opinion and I am not trying to flame you. If it works for you, go for it.

For the newbies here. If, and I say if, things go to pot which I think is a very slim chance, you will want NATO comatability. Ammo and weaponry will be bountiful (for obvious reasons) and can be traded for should you decide to go "shopping". Think in those terms and you can't go wrong.

Anyway, thanks again for the input. No flames intended either. We just have different opinions. BTW, I'm not shopping for ammo. Just an observation for posting. Thanks again.

-- Rob (maxovrdrv51@hotmail.com), November 27, 1999.

Ya ,Ya Ya, the wannabe murders thread,Just be careful that you don't get a 223 in your brain pans the moment you JERK of that first round.I suggest you gun freaks spend more time jerking the gun.More pleasure and less risk and leave the rifle in the case.You all remind me of recruits in basic telling how you will be another Audey Murphy. and then comes action and you fouling your drawers and frozen stiff from fear---Good luck shooters and enjoy the camps and prisons.They have been designed just for you!

-- cpt Warnomore (gunsintoplowshares@warnomore.org), November 27, 1999.

And another chips in with their two cents worth. Just an opinion like all the others, buddy. Yada, yada, yada. Nobody said anything about killing anybody. You read too much into this. I was talking about hunting...

Go watch McGuiver or something.

-- Rob (maxovrdrv51@hotmail.com), November 27, 1999.

Yes Rob,you really need 1000rds of 223 cal ball for hunting? just what will you be hunting? Give me a break!If we lose our rights to keep and bare it will be a direct result of you stockpilers of surplus ammo and wannabe's who never strode over the bullet riddled carnage of war. By the way,our Revolutionary forefathers kept a long rifle,a powderhorn, and a small supply of shot.A modern equivalant might consist of one rifle or shotgun and 50 rounds.. Bet you go to the slaughter farms in Wisconsin,pay your money,sit in the blind sipping beer and nail the first deer that makes it's morning rounds of the feed lot and salt lick. Then duely satisfied you strap the trophy on the beemer and head back to Chicago to brag to your potbellied cronies of your prowess. Dime will get you a dollar that none of you ever faced a charging Grizz with a 30/30 or a battle hardned enemy that wanted you ass DEAD! you would have other priorities now.I've done both and took no pleasure out of either experience,You Wannabe's make me sick!

-- cpt Warnomore (blastingthe bambi's@perversepleasures.com), November 27, 1999.

Take this one as you will...

Marin county, PC capital of California, just north of San Francisco is having a (small) gun show this weekend. Very short of .223. Asked the dealer what happened to the supply. Said he sold 25,000 rounds in the first hour. Damn stealth yuppies...

-- I'm (not@tellin.now), November 27, 1999.

PMC has been going through hassles with Klintoon's stooges at State Dept and Customs, which has prevented their getting shipments into the country. Seems that under some old military assistance laws, there were rules intended to prevent resale of our military aid by the countries recieving the goodies. We certainly didn't want any corrupt government taking boatloads of new US guns, tanks, etc and selling the stuff to line its own pockets.

Part of that military assistance was ammo making equipment. In South Korea that equipment was delevered to PMC (Pongsong Metals Company). Since those deliveries back in the fifties or sixties there has been no problem and PMC has expdanded their capacity to be able to produce for export.

But now the Klintoon administration is using those rules to say that PMC is using the military technology we delivered them to illegally sell military products to third parties. The same for ammo production systems in other countries, too. But PMC is the most noticeable since they have a large market niche established.

However there is good news. Within the last month PMC has been allowed back into the US market. Seems they were able to prove to Customs that they weren't using the US-aid technology to produce their export product. "See, we're using non-US made machines for these production lines."

But the pipeline is dry and has been for months. It will take a while for PMC to ramp-up production and get their product flowing. They've missed almost a year's worth of sales and it's bound to have seriously hurt the company. But the Klintoon administration wouldn't care about evil ammo makers, would it?

But suspiciously about the same time that our markets were closed to traditional ammo importers like IMI (Israel) and PMC (Korea), we suddenly started seeing lots of stuff start coming in from Russia and China. When the IMI, PMC, Guatamalan, Venezualan, you name it ammo was available, nobody would buy non-reloadable, corrosive, ComBloc ammo. But when there was no alternative a lot of people bought that stuff, by the boatload.

Whoever made the decision to bring the Russian and Chinese ammo sure was clairvoyant on knowing they had no competition. Or did they have prior knowledge of a pending decision by Klintoon's gang and did they move to profit from it?

WW

-- Wildweasel (vtmldm@epix.net), November 27, 1999.

Looks kinda like Cpt. Warnomore "might" be kinda worried about something. Hey Cap. You seem kinda, beligerent ? Is that close ? Have you have your meds today. LOL Or maybe you were trying to take advantage of all this stockpiling by trying to make a profit off us guys and gals and all of a sudden found out we didn't want to trade anything of value for your "two cents worth". Now you're broke ! Hehe.

Chill out you all Mighty Morphin Power Ranger you. I know you are just trying to take the world under your wing and make it a better place to live 'cause you got all the answers but maybe some of us can scrape through life OK without your guidance ?

By the way, you used the signature of GUNSTOPLOWSHARES earlier. Do you also sport the "Hammer and Sickle" on your flag pole ? Sounded "communal" to me, if you will.

Here's a dose of reality for you. I am excercising my rights to post and not violating any laws. It's called freedom. Check that and read up on it. Let me know if you still don't get it (grin).

-- Rob (maxovrdrv51@hotmail.com), November 27, 1999.

When I started taking this Y2K potential problem seriously about 18 months ago, one of the situations that might occur would be civil disorder. There are already a lot of frustrated people, with guns, and for several reasons I may be required to defend my home.

From my memories and experience a long time ago, I came to the opinion that if I get in a fire fight of any kind, I want to have the biggest and the most. Don't want to be in second place.

That is why my wife has a choate customized .223 and I practice with a 22 year old H&K 91. I reload the brass just to be sure.

Sure, I have a case of in-security when thinking of an armed confrontation with anyone but there are reasons, I remember.

-- 19E40 (Viet@Nam67-68.com), November 27, 1999.

I've bought most of the .223 and the toilet paper in the area. Sorry.

I told y'all to prepare LAST year.

-- Dog Gone (layinglow@rollover.now), November 27, 1999.

Doggone you Dog Gone!

I needed that last 1,000 rounds and 100 rolls for my stash! Now here I am with less than 10,000 rds and 1,000 rolls to get us through that three day storm.

WW

-- Wildweasel (vtmldm@epix.net), November 27, 1999.

Anybody have any "camo" TP they wanna barter for ? (LOL)

-- Rob (maxovrdrv51@hotmail.com), November 28, 1999.

With our crises-level over populated deer herd up here in wisconsin,there's no need for private hunting.Come knock 'em down in the name of herd control.

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), November 28, 1999.

Wildweasel,

I'd gladly trade a roll of TP or a few rounds of ammo for some chickens or a couple of ribeye steaks next year. We can work things out.

-- Dog Gone (layinglow@rollover.now), November 28, 1999.

The most important thing to remember in preparing for the defense of your home/family/supplies and the Maddening Horde of Y2K Mad Max'ers is the same to remember in case of defending the same against any burglars/intruders during normal times: Be sure to file the front sights off your weapons!!! This is so it doesn't hurt so bad when the Maddening Horde of Y2K takes the weapon away from you and sticks it up your @$$.

-- Beached Whale (beached_whale@hotmail.com), November 28, 1999.

Rob,

You can still get .223, it's just harder than it was earlier this year. If you want SS-109 ammo (current mil light armor piercing), call Cole Cartridge. (502) 843-6844. AMMOMAN also has .223 most of the time.

If you want hunting rounds, try Winchester's 64gr SP load. I buy the slugs and load my own. Makes a dynamite self-defense rd. Or try Federal's 40gr Blitz rd. Lots of SWAT types use it because of it's low penetration (8-10").

Regular ball ammo will work, but if you need to stop someone, use SP's...you're not obligated to the Geneva Convention like the military is. Ball ammo is to wounds, SP is to kill.

I don't care if people think that 1000+ rds of ammo is strange. I tell them that 1) it NEVER goes down in price, and 2) it lasts a LONG time in storage. 1000 rds is about 6 months worth of ammo for my practice, and less than that sometimes.

-- Bill (billclo@msgbox.com), November 28, 1999.

"Regular ball ammo will work, but if you need to stop someone, use SP's..."

Bill,

Thank you! I admit I don't get to all the chats and forums, but you're the first I've seen to say this. Needless to say, I agree. My stock of SP versus FMJ ball is about 3 to 1.

-- hunter (way@up.north), November 29, 1999.

Almost forgot. The secret? Load your own. Get your reloading gear now, before the price goes thru the roof just before you can't get any more reloading gear at all.

-- hunter (way@up.north), November 29, 1999.

I'm glad that someone besides myself as thought this through enough to realize that sometimes there is a better ammo choice than standard old militay ball ammo for self-defense.

I use the 64gr SP load for combat/self-defense useage, with some SS- 109 for harder targets. SP's don't do diddly versus light cover (windshields, thick wood, etc).

I started to load my own because I had to. I had an 11 1/2" CAR-15, and all the commercial loads appeared to be set up for 20-24" barrels. I gained over 200fps by using a fast burning powder (IMR 4198) and Moly-lubed the slugs.

-- Bill (billclo@msgbox.com), November 30, 1999.

9 MILLION rounds sold from ONE distributor in 48 HOURS.

Got ammo?

CLICK HERE

-- Dennis (djolson@cherco.net), December 01, 1999.