If Money system fails; how will you determine value of things like DAK ham, or other goods for trading purposes?

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If the money system fails, how will you determine what is value for value.

For instance what would you trade that you have for a DAK ham if you have not had meat in a few days or a week and yes you are a meat eater?

If you have plenty of coverlets and quilts what is a fair trade for a quilt to someone who has not enough quilts?

What amount of gold or silver will you trade for a loaf of homemade bread or a gallon of well water?

And how soon do you think trading amoung the people will start if things do fail and the banks are closed?

Do you think the gov. will allow someone who has a well to sell water with no restrictions?

Will the markets be a gov. instituted trade markets set up or will people just gather and set up little markets within walking distance of the previous roads that were major interchanges. How do you think it will work?

Do you have paint and boards, for signs advertising the way to your market to set up when the time comes :-)

thanks, obo

-- Obo (susanwater@excite.com), November 26, 1999

Answers

Hi Obo:

You wrote:"And how soon do you think trading amoung the people will start if things do fail and the banks are closed?"

Bartering is already a way of life in many parts of the country -- "I'll trade you my old-but-workable stereo system for a major tuneup for my car..."

How much is a quilt, canned ham, service worth? The only answer is: It's worth as much as someone will pay for it.

There are stories from the Great Depression ("Depression I"?) of people trading remarkable items -- one I heard recently was about a father whose family was extremely short of food. They heard that a neighbor had slaughtered a hog. The man drove over in his car, offered the vehicle, and went home with a ham -- on foot. A ham was worth the same as a car, as far as he was concerned.

-- Anita Evangelista (ale@townsqr.com), November 26, 1999.


Anita, I like your idea of calling the Great Depression "Depression I".

How about "GDI" and "GDII" - assuming it comes to that? (And I am operating under the assumption that it likely will.)

-- Gus (y2kk@usa.net), November 26, 1999.


I'm speculating that the grocery stores themselves are going to outreach and buy small local crops. (i.e. the oranges from ones two backyard orange trees.) As seller it'd be a wise path because ones face is anonymous to the populace purchasing those oranges.

-- Paula (chowbabe@pacbell.net), November 26, 1999.

Barter will start as soon as two people get together where they both need something. As far as selling water with out gov't regualtions. The idea of selling water really rubs me the wrong way. We figured the best way of storing water was in the Florida Aquafir, therefore we put in another well that goes down to the aquafir. This well has a hand pump and is available to anyone who wants/needs water. Its never going to get pumped dry in my lifetime. Yes...it would be nice to recoup the money spent ($3500) but there are some things in life that are worth more than money. Water is one of them! Neighbors is another!

Taz

-- Taz (Tassie123@aol.com), November 26, 1999.


One of the "new professions" if (when) the money system crashes would be "barter facilitator" or "barter exchange manager". Tools of the trade would be a lot of 3x5 cards, pens/pencils, and a cheap solar powered calculator for addition/subtraction/multiplication/division.

A starting point would be the "prices" as valued in the old currency. Also the price related to GRAMS of gold and/or silver. The object is to derive RELATIVE values of various things. I haven't thought this out in detail. Just for your consideration.

-- A (A@AisA.com), November 26, 1999.



Conversation with my friendly neighborhood grocer: "Yes I'd take a silver dime for a can of beans in that case...at least as long as my supplies lasted-and only to good customers." He and his wife are both GI's, btw. They are worried about protecting their store and inventory during an initial panic period. As a result, most of their goods are in a converted distribution warehouse that used to belong to an auto parts chain. They figure they will probably just close if it looks too bad and then wait.

-- chairborne commando (what-me-worry@armageddon.com), November 26, 1999.

Prices of food when there isn't enough or it can't be transported?
Thru the roof! They will fling their silver into the streets and their gold will become an abhorrent thing; their silver and their gold will not be able to deliver them in the day of the wrath of the LORD. They cannot satisfy their appetite nor can they fill their stomachs, for their iniquity has become an occasion of stumbling. -Ezekiel 7:19 [NASB]

-- Slobby Don (slobbydon@hotmail.com), November 26, 1999.

Any item is worth what a buyer is willing to pay for it.

-- Kaboom (Kaboom@meltdown.com), November 26, 1999.

Taz,

:-) I understand what you mean. Most of my neighbors have their own well so I would not have to sell it to my neighbors.

Just as the gov. sells water through pipes and others in groc. stores sell water in bottles now so also it could be a good profit making opportunity to support your family, if the gov. restrictions are taken off it.

Water is a commodity just like gas to get to work to support your family or wheat to make bread to feed your family or clothing to keep your family warm so it is subject to being used for sale for profit.

-- Obo (susanwater@excite.com), November 26, 1999.


Why barter with someone when you can just rob them?

Why barter if your certain to be robbed?

Why barter with someone when you can just take their stuff after they've starved to death?

Why barter for a doctor or other service provider when you can just recruit the person to your band?

-- Ocotillo (peeling@out.===), November 26, 1999.



Though the answer should be clear, the reason not to rob someone is Christian, moral correctness, it is wrong to take what is not yours.

If you are a band of robbers I would not join though I could contribute much to a band who are honest and try obey most of the laws.

If you are a band of robbers you will pay a heavy price trying to take what I have stored to help us survive as I do believe in protecting me and mine.

I have other sources, like knowledge of gardening and the wild foods so I think if you are going around robbing from stored goods you will die first :-)

You best get a better plan!

obo

-- Obo (susanwater@excite.com), November 26, 1999.


The point A makes bears more consideration. Often, X has something Z wants, but Y has what X needs. Z has something Y needs. The result is a 3-way exchange. When exchanges extend more than 3 ways, the logistical difficulties become impractical without agents to set up the deal, find out who has what, who needs what, etc.

In addition, trades are often not exact. I have a hog and need batteries, but the batteries are not worth an entire hog. And if I subdivide the hog to make change, it dies. So the agent (the facilitator) creates "credit" so the exchange takes place, and I have credit with that agent, which I can use on the *next* transaction. This simplifies the barter process a great deal.

Today, we call the agent a "banker" and we call the credit "money". And commerce becomes possible. Isn't that amazing?

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), November 26, 1999.


Flint -- yes -- and I would hope the New Bankers would be more honest than the old ones. That is, that they would NOT issue more "credits" than there are hogs and batteries.

-- A (A@AisA.com), November 26, 1999.

A:

Yes, I hope so too. But I recognize the difficulty of keeping money balanced with economic productivitiy. The long-range goal is that the purchasing power of one credit holds still. In practice, this requires some ability to predict the future. I hope future bankers can do this, but I doubt they'll be any better than the current "experts." Who have been good but not great, on the whole.

Still, if commerce is vigorous and living standards are rising, it's hard to complain, unless you do so just for fun.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), November 26, 1999.


I have a hog and need batteries, but the batteries are not worth an entire hog. And if I subdivide the hog to make change, it dies. So the agent (the facilitator) creates "credit" so the exchange takes place, and I have credit with that agent, which I can use on the *next* transaction. This simplifies the barter process a great deal.

Today, we call the agent a "banker" and we call the credit "money". And commerce becomes possible. Isn't that amazing?

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), November 26, 1999.

Using small disks (or other shapes) of precious metals of known weight and purity ("coins") facilitates transactions too, but has the great advantage of not giving total power into the hands of a possibly corrupt "banker".

-- Steve Heller (stheller@koyote.com), November 26, 1999.



Steve:

You're quite right. Indeed, *any* form of IOU is just fine, so long as it's universally accepted within an economy. What enforces the universal acceptance, in practice, is that those who refuse to accept the IOU's suffer an economic penalty relative to those who accept them. And that's all that's required. Anything else (like the *form* of the IOU or the role of credit managers), is convenience and facilitation.

And so a system like ours evolves because it works.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), November 26, 1999.


I believe that post-Y2K many people will barter for their lives. These are the morally honest ones; however, evil thieves will steal for their lives.

-- dinosaur (dinosaur@williams-net.com), November 26, 1999.

Ok so now I have an idea, came from as a result of some of your posts. I am an artist. I can make clay objects and fire them so they will hold up to wear and be uniform to what I say is official.

I will make little round circles of "OBO" money out of clay, very plentiful around here and stamp my emblem on them, fire them and give them to people as change when they barter with me and they can later trade them in to me for other items that I get with barter.

Yep, think I will set up my own systems of credits and call it OBO clay. I might trade some of my "obo clay" with some of you if you have set up your own standard of credits but we will have to see if people like holding my credits more than yours so we will know how much we should each exchange. GEEssshh we don't need a goverment man to to do this and hey we're not gonna pay taxes either.

:-)

-- Obo (susanwater@excite.com), November 26, 1999.


" I believe that post-Y2K many people will barter for their lives. These are the morally honest ones; however, evil thieves will steal for their lives.

-- dinosaur (dinosaur@williams-net.com), November 26, 1999. "

I believe that if things get rough (and I think that may happen) then the best plan would be to lay low for the first few days/weeks and let the real evil ones play out their destiny. The majority of them won't last very long. Certainly many innocent, moral people will suffer at first but the majority of the real bad apples will destroy themselves in the first couple of weeks or so.

After a few short weeks the barter economy will fluorish. You'll still have to be careful who you deal with, what areas you go into, etc. Just make sure you are prepared and be ready to go into seclusion for a while when the masses are sorting things out.

Keep in mind that the majority will not be prepared for multiple weeks. They'll have to barter their possesions to get food, etc. If they risk their lives trying to forcibly take what they need they'll evenutally get killed in the process.

This also means there will be plenty of opportunity to acquire items at a relatively low cost if you have things that others will need (food, warm clothing, camping gear, fuel, etc.)

-- Chas (chicks@ix.netcom.com), November 26, 1999.


actually there was a great depression in the 1870's or 1880's, so the y2k depression...if there is one, remember there still has to be some economy to be depressed, would be great depression 3. (i'll be bock!!)

-- jeremiah (braponspdetroit@hotmail.com), November 27, 1999.

Obo,

I have an above ground 2,500 gallon pool I'm planning to fill and keep in the garage. Each day, I'm going to run a hose out to the street. Anyone in need of potable water will be welcome to it, no questions asked. (I plan on catching rain water off the roof and channeling it into the pool then treating it with chlorine, to keep a steady supply.)

As for my family's water requirements, should we hit a dry spell and run out of water, I'm building a solar distiller. (We have PLEANTY of salt water available to distill.)

If I was rich (like Taz **wink wink**) I'd also drill a well and put a hand pump on it for all to use.

I'm buying enough rice (and beans, hopefully) to feed all of my immediate neighbors until the garden starts to produce enough to sustain us all. From there, we are in a new cycle of living and the rest is history repeated.

I sure do like central ac/heat, clean running water, Kroger's, the internet, hot showers, washing machines and dryers, etc., therefore I'm not at all "happy" about what may lie ahead, but I'm also not going to lay down and die without a fight.

Also, I'm not going to depend on someone else doing what they "should" have done, which if they don't, will have a negative impact on me and my family. If I have to feed and water my neighbors for a while, sobeit. It's better than having to deal with them stealing, and costs a whole lot less in both money and peace of mind, as opposed to the alturnative of trying to isolate myself and my family.

As for "money". Won't need any. We'll grow/make it ourselves or do without, should this end up being a "10".

-- GoldReal (GoldReal@aol.com), November 27, 1999.


>> If the money system fails, how will you determine what is value for value. <<

First, the "money system" has not failed for a very long time, but from time to time it has suffered from *extremely volatile readjustments*. During such times, ownership of money has not been rewarding in the long term, compared to ownership of things.

In other words, if you are familiar with the current market conditions, then you may reasonably accept money as a measure of value, provided you turn it over very rapidly and use it to repurchase tangibles. So, if *today's* price for a DAK ham is $50, and *today's price for a case of canned green beans is $72, then you may choose to undertake the exchanges needed with some confidence that you know and understand the terms of the bargain. But, if you wait until next week, you may suffer a rapid loss of bargaining power with the dollars you are holding.

This is just the ordinary free market conditions, but under twenty atmospheres of pressure. If it happens, you will not make too many mistakes for too long before you adjust. Just stay sensitive and do not mistake the past for the present.

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), November 27, 1999.


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