Is it time to run the ferry system solely on user fees?

-- roy (nannoook@aol.com), November 23, 1999

Answers

I would rather they privatize. You know almost no one could afford the fares WSF would have to charge.

-- Marsha (acorn_nut@hotmail.com), November 23, 1999.

Actually, our neighbors to the North, BC ferries converted to a public corporation, back in the late 70s I believe. They now run it pretty much like a business with only a very modest Provincial subsidy, 6-10% range. I believe that reasonable ferry service would be viable for most of the big cross sound routes that are big money LOSERS today. Serving the San Juans would be a little dicier. The Anacortes to BC run is dead anyway, not worth upgrading the boats to the new international safety standard, and their exemption to continue to run the unsafe boats is running out.

-- Craig Carson (craigcar@crosswinds.net), November 23, 1999.

You will need to deal with the public policy issues; like the responsibility of government in providing transportation routes to all parts of the state, and how to maintain unprofitable routes that are needed as a public service.

-- dbvz (dbvz@wa.freei.net), November 23, 1999.

"You will need to deal with the public policy issues; like the responsibility of government in providing transportation routes to all parts of the state, and how to maintain unprofitable routes that are needed as a public service."

And BC Ferries did that. Although I would take issue with your comment about the responsibility of government in providing transportation routes to all parts of the state. We have plenty of small islands that have no ferry service. If people choose to live there, they provide their own transportation. Some provide ferry service paid for by the residents.

I'm not sure if someone wants to be a hermit that the rest of us are obligated to provide a boat or highway to their hermitage.

-- Craig Carson (craigcar@crosswinds.net), November 23, 1999.

Craig:

Just to be clear, my comment was about dealing with the public policy question about what the government responsibility is. If you are going to provide ferry service to some, and not others, what is the public policy basis for that distinction? When does an island (or a community) have enough population to "deserve" government provided access in place of a private access route?

-- dbvz (dbvz@wa.freei.net), November 23, 1999.

"If you are going to provide ferry service to some, and not others, what is the public policy basis for that distinction? When does an island (or a community) have enough population to "deserve" government provided access in place of a private access route? "

I answered that one long ago, d. I wouldn't have subsidized any of them. You must have missed it.

I would have let private companies provide the service and the market set the prices in the first place. Since we have now LURED people into relocating into places that do not make economic sense, absent these subsidies, I believe we must withdraw them slowly. The biggest problem with government subsidies is that they drive economically inappropriate actions. It's the old "commons" issue about overuse of commonly held resources, one of the reasons that communal farms in China couldn't feed the populace why private plots with 1% of the arable land had 10 times the productivity per hectare. Same thing as the poor social engineering we have done in this country. Having for decades PAID HEALTHY PEOPLE TO NOT WORK, with welfare, I believe we have a moral obligation to WEAN them from it, rather than saying "Pity, changed our minds. You who we've dissuaded from ever aquiring education or job skills are now on your own. Good luck to you and your three kids." The ferry service is the same issue. Just because it was dumb to subsidize it this much, and would be dumb to continue to subsidize it like this in perpetuity, doesn't mean that it would be fair to change it abruptly. Just cause I don't support the actions of my government, doesn't mean I don't take my share of responsibility for mitigating the consequences of those actions. Didn't you think I had a social conscience, d?

-- Craig Carson (craigcar@crosswinds.net), November 23, 1999.

Craig:

I have intentionally avoided reading most of the long exchanges you have had recently on transit issues. I think I did see your opinion of privatization, but that does not deal with my comment. What I stated was that this is a pubic policy question, that needs a public policy answer. I understand your opinion, but I don't know what the public policy is, or should be, on the questions. As I have noted several times, 695 gives us no direction on programs and priorities; and nothing at all on what the public policy should be on the ferry system.

Usually public policy is developed through a public process ending in adoption by an elected body. An initiative can also set a public policy if it is worded to identify what the policy question is, and the vote provides an answer. We have not seen any of that yet, about the ferry system.

-- dbvz (dbvz@wa.freei.net), November 23, 1999.

"Usually public policy is developed through a public process ending in adoption by an elected body" d-

I'm obviously older than you are. Most of public policy merely evolved over time, without rhyme or reason. Maybe not how it should happen, but how it does. WSF came into being because of the private ferries being forced out of the market because the state wouldn't let the owners raise rates to offset a recent increase in wages by the union. Don't know that there was any particular plan. The company tied up their boats, the state but them all for $5 million, and the rest has evolved incrementally according to interest group pressures. Notwithstanding the many public meetings in vogue today, that's still how most stuff happens.

-- Craig Carson (craigcar@crosswinds.net), November 23, 1999.

Sorry, meant bought, not but.

-- (craigcar@crosswinds.net), November 23, 1999.

privatize, please, without pause, or argument

-- no chance (kingoffools_99@yahoo.com), November 23, 1999.

Craig:

No, I don't believe you are a lot older. I was describing the current method, but when the state made the decision to purchase ferries and go into operation it was establishing the public policy to operate that service. It was then, and continued to be, public policy to provide that service. That was reaffirmed every budget, and through several administrations of both major parties. Whether you agree with it or not, and clearly you do not, the public policy has been firmly and repeatedly established by every legislature that held hearings and approved the budget for the system.

So how does that change? Not by I-695. A public process resulting in a different decision by the legislature is required to change the current public policy on the ferry system.

I don't agree that, "Most of public policy merely evolved over time, without rhyme or reason." That is too simplistic, and does not acknowledge the authority and responsibility of the elected officials who take these decisions seriously.

You have an irritating way of referring to your age, and stating your opinion, as if that constitutes a convincing arguement. It isn't.

-- dbvz (dbvz@wa.freei.net), November 23, 1999.

"You have an irritating way of referring to your age, and stating your opinion, as if that constitutes a convincing arguement. It isn't"

You have a surprising amount of naivete' if you are near my age.

"Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has not heart; and any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains." Sir Winston Leonard Spenser Churchill (1874-1965) British statesman, prime minister, author

-- Craig Carson (craigcar@crosswinds.net), November 24, 1999.

Craig:

See what I mean? Irritating.

-- dbvz (dbvz@wa.freei.net), November 24, 1999.

PS:

I AM a conservative Craig, a Reagan Republican if you must know. That still means working within the established institutions of government, and some respect for history and traditions. And that does not mean I must agree with your version of conservative thought on this or any other subject. The Republicans were split on 695, and you and I should be able to disagree without your use of the parental attitude.

-- dbvz (dbvz@wa.freei.net), November 24, 1999.