Don't edit, just delete those who are uncivil, like You Know Who:

http://stand77.com/wwwboard/messages/5057.html

Looks like they've declared war.

-- Deb M. (vmcclell@columbus.rr.com), November 22, 1999

Answers

Looks more like they've declared virtual suicide. They are now IMHO the type of renegade site that TPTB *loves* to make an example of.

Advocating DOS attacks because they don't like what someone *else* says, sheesh! What idiots!

-- Ron Schwarz (rs@clubvb.com.delete.this), November 22, 1999.

No negotiations with terrorists.

PERIOD

-- mushroom (mushroom_bs_too_long@yahoo.com), November 22, 1999.

What is this all about anyway. I've seen some references to a TB2K trollwar in c.s.y2k. I thought this was a fairly quiet place.

I guess it's time for Chuck and Diane to spray another pint of Hartz Polly-be-gone (Industrial Strength, Caution Eye Irritant, FIRST AID-flush with plenty of water. If swallowed drink a glassful of water. Call a physician. KEEP OUT OF REACH OF CHILDREN.)

We have our own troubled pollies in c.s.y2k but fortunately most have chosen to simply killfile (ban) the pollies.

The funny thing about the c.s.y2k pollies is that you can agree with them (as I frequently do, haha) and they get even madder.

Anyway, we'll know soon enough how Y2K plays out. I hope everyone does well. I gotta run, I got a bunch of back WRPs to get out.

-- cory (kiyoinc@ibm.XOUT.net), November 22, 1999.

Strictly from a human behavior perspective, the ONLY way to extinguish unwanted behavior is to ignore it, consistently, over a period of time, no matter what the provocation. While I don't mind the deletion of annoying threads, from that same human behavioral perspective, doing so will be a provocation for more annoying posts.

Whatever you do, do consistently...intermittant reward/punishment is as bad as argument.

Albert Ellis would be so happy I remembered this. :-)

--She in the sheet, upon the hilltop,...

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), November 22, 1999.

You can't ignore-away certain behaviors. Attempting to do so is part of what's caused a lot of the deterioration in "western civilization".

-- Ron Schwarz (rs@clubvb.com.delete.this), November 22, 1999.

Donna,

Ignoring them may be good behavioralism but it's not much fun. I think troll-bashing is good sport and also cathartic.

BTW, if you're ever feeling extra generous, would you please elaborate on your signature phrase (she in the sheet, upon the hilltop) for those of us who are poetically challenged? I love it, find it evocative, but don't know why. Thanks.

Lars

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), November 22, 1999.

The sysops have taken the right measures by deleting the polly drivel. The only ones complaining are the pollys. No surprise.

-- (brett@miklos.org), November 22, 1999.

Sorry Cory, but I have developed and perfected and antidote to Hartz Polly Be Gone. Now I will share it with my fellow trolls. BTW the antidote is available in both regular and minty flavors.

-- Butt Nugget (catsbutt@umailme.com), November 22, 1999.

Deb, I went over and checked out that link you posted ( http://stand77.com/wwwboard/messages/5057.html ). Thank you, although cleaning all the froth off the inside of the screen DID take a while. You know, whenever I start thinking that all this is perhaps stressing me out too much and I start questioning whatever sanity I may have, just reading some of the posts over there (like that one) reassures me that MY mental state is just fine.

-- I'm Here, I'm There (I'm Everywhere@so.beware), November 23, 1999.

GREAT strawman! point to ONE post, NOT made by a regular to that board....then hold it up as the "benchmark".

One has to ask....why? does smearing another forum somehow make this one better? WHY does anyone here EVEN CARE what another forum thinks? If you believe you are right, then stand on that conviction and forget about everthing else.

Using other forums to bolster yours is just an act of subjectivity...it proves nothing.

-- MiddleGrounder (y2kwillbe@5.or6), November 23, 1999.

Ahh, MiddleGrounder...

How interesting that you completely IGNORE the agreeing responses from the DeBunkie regulars. And it's not ONE post; it's dozens. I lurk over there quite often. It's a wasteland of small-minded trashing of others, rather than a forum to exchange information. The regulars there just congratulate each other for doing a good job of trashing TB2000.

-- Dennis (djolson@pressenter.com), November 23, 1999.

The people that posted that information on Debunking Y2K are not regular posters but lurkers themselves. Regular posters such as CPR, Doc, Peg, Pat, John and many others do not endorse in any form of hurting this forum.

And to your surprise we do not sit around and plot about how to destroy this forum since many are doing it with off topic posts and rumor posting without our help.

-- Village Idiot (BAMECW@aol.com), November 23, 1999.

"ahhh" Dennis,

POINT #1 -- WHY DO YOU CARE? Please re-read my above post....and I ask the question again....WHY DOES THIS FORUM EVEN CARE WHAT ANOTHER FORUM THINKS? SOOOOOOO WHAAAAAT?!?!?

POINT #2 -- Which "agreeing responses" am I "completely ignoring"?

The one by Randolph Scott - "Disagree with most of the posters at TB2K if you want or must, but posting messages in large fonts, and the repeated posting of the same vitriol over this past weekend is simply imbecilic.

If you want people to avoid the "doomer meme" as you call it, just post a link to this board. Lurkers will see exactly how reasonable you are.

Whoever posted this thread initially is a 17 year-old moron who is kicking and screaming because he just found out that life is not fair. I empathize (or at least I used to), but childish displays waste everyone's time."

OR is it Jonathan Latimer - "Respectfully, I disagree"

maybe "cooler head" - ""NO one expects the Spanish Inquisition!"

Find a real cause to fight for. There are several available."

OR Patricia - "But I am a staunch defender of free speech, to the extent that "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". "

OR Jack Handey - "This place does serve a purpose and that is to debunk Y2K, not idiots. Debunking the idiots is just a happy coincidence. The wrongly assume that this place is their "enemy" when their enemy is really ignorance. That will be their own undoing. Don't start a war between these two forum otherwise you will degrade the quality of this place and the others like it."

Maybe it was CPR's post - "It **IS** a waste of time to expose the lower level posters on EY's pit.

Do you Get the point yet? Where is this "agreement" you speak of? THIS forum is guilty of taking qoutes and statements out of context, just like the OTHER forum is guilty of!

BACK to the main Question.....WHY DOES ANYONE CARE WHAT ANOTHER FORUM THINKS?!?!?!

BOTH forums need to grow up....and I hope THIS one will take the lead. THEN....maybe others will follow and the message will change for the public.....instead "stockpiling wacky y2knuts" it could be "Hey....those are sound, reasoning adults. Maybe I should be prudent like they are!"

Which do YOU think would do the most good....mudslinging or sticking to the issue? ***reminder***-when you sling mud, you ALWAYS get some on yourself!

-- MiddleGrounder (y2kwillbe@5.or6), November 23, 1999.

Hey MiddleGrounder,

I posted as Randolf Scott on that thread.

I have never been there before in my life. I only went there because it was linked here. I wanted the pollies there to understand how childish the pollidiots who come over here really are.

It was not intended to be a voice of reason among pollies, but criticism of the idiot who started the thread. Is that ad hominem? Probably, but it's also the truth.

-- nothere nothere (notherethere@hotmail.com), November 23, 1999.

CPR's response to my response was basically:

"Yeah, so what? There are lots worse on csy2k. Who cares what the idiot doomers think?"

Fine, I don't ever have to go back there now.

I wish Y2Kshmo and ykw were capable of following my example.

-- nothere nothere (notherethere@hotmail.com), November 23, 1999.

I wanted the pollies there to understand how childish the pollidiots who come over here really are.

Again, nice assumption! WHY did you "go there"....because you ASSUMED that those who keep telling you that the "debunkers want to destroy this forum", were telling the truth! Are they? How come I can't find ANY posts to that end on ANY debunker forum? Why do the regular...and I stress 'REGULAR'.... posters, time and time again dis-avow wanting to destroy this forum? WHY? Why did they post STRENOUS disagreement with attempts to remove this forum from MIT's servers? HMMM?

Look, I don't know if you know any young kids....but I have a 10 and twelve year old neice and nephew....do you know what they like to do on the weekend while mom and dad are out having diner? They think its funny to "troll" thru internet forums of doglovers posting recipes for "poached poodle" and other silly/stupid things.

Why hasn't anyone noticed that the "trolling" increases on the weekends? don't you think it is just a bunch of kids trying to get their jollies? Remove it and move on.

I think it is a big mistake to label someone you disagree with a "troll", simply because they don't see eye to eye with you. And....lets be honest. Moderates (on BOTH sides of the issue) have not been treated with respect....they are called names and insulted by anonymous people hundreds of miles away....THAt...can get on anyones nerves! So I would expect the discourse to become....heated. But what is happening now is just plain stupid. People's thread titles are being editted, certain posters are being deleted....because of their NAME, fer chrisake!

Is the position of the pessimist so shakey that they have to resort to silencing the "other side"? WHY? Don't get me wrong, *I* am a pessimist when it comes to y2k....but do you know how I have made GI's out of DGI's? IT SURE WASN'T by calling them names and refusing to listen to them!

I have....LITERALY....listened to hours and hours of denial spew....just so that I could gain the ground to talk with individuals....I asked a few pointed questions....and the discussion grew. I can't even count how many people are making some sort of preparations because of our discussions.

Lets move this back toward civil discussion and see if a few more lives can't be saved, hmmm?

FORGET the extremists on BOTH sides.....stick to what is important.

-- MiddleGrounder (y2kwillbe@5.or6), November 23, 1999.

Y2K Will Be,

Agreed, let's move on and forget the extremists. Let's do our best to make our society a better place to be, together.

One final note. For those from DeBunkie's who complain of censorship on TB2000, you shouldn't throw stones when you live in a glass house yourself:

http://stand77.com/wwwboard/messages/4395.html

God bless you all. Best wishes & good luck.

-- Deb M. (vmcclell@columbus.rr.com), November 23, 1999.

MG,

Take a chill pill man.

These forums are not sacrosanct. These conversations are not sacred.

Even "extremists" name-calling is just blowing off steam.

I "complained" on the other board that actually acting to completely DISRUPT and ELIMINATE another board is uncalled for.

The doomers on this board call pollies a LOT of different names, but no one has started a thread to persuade others to ELIMINATE polly forums.

Those who post the same thread 50 times in 5 minutes have EARNED their deletion (no questions asked).

Oh and be careful where you stand, people in the middle of the road can get run over.

-- nothere nothere (notherethere@hotmail.com), November 23, 1999.

Deb M - nice catch. That link clears up alot. I thought the debunkers were into censoring and deleting, but I guess not.

'Not many rules and you are the first person I have ever censored, period end of story.' 'Again, just tone it down a bit and keep the stupid racist crap out of it, is this too much to ask?' -Doc P

So this guy who gets himself deleted has been working at it for a while it seems. And he isn't censured because he has a different opinion; its because he was foul-mouthed and racist. The guy even apologizes on down the thread.

-- AnN Onimus (thankyou,@but.no), November 23, 1999.

Middlegrounder,

watch your back. I too am middle-ground in my stance on Y2K. Where I am not middle ground is on the issue of a small unelected group dictating terms and limiting the rights of a much larger group. Especially where that limitation regards the right to freedom of information.

I hope none but the most vitriolic extremist here could consider me a pointless troll. I input information wherever I can, I never use profanity (except when quoting from others) and I always try to remain courteous. However, this issue of censorship has always been one upon which I will take a stand, and I continue to do so, and it has led to my being grouped together with those who have spammed and broken rules, and I am now apparently being deleted on sight. The same will happen to you eventually, and anyone else who dares to question the divine right of the moderators to tell you what to think, and to control what you read.

Last night I began a thread, raising the issue of the over-censorship and control-freakery which is currently dragging this forum into the mud. The thread was summarily deleted, despite the fact that it was not in breach of any rule of the forum, and was at least as on-topic s many other threads which appear here.

Perhaps it was deleted because it contained the following example of the double-standard which exists here, and the moderators thought that it was just a little too evidently true to be permitted to remain. . .

{snip}

EXAMPLE 1 -

Big Gubbmint Spokesman (from Washington) . . :- "These anti- establishment elements can be dangerous. Why, they dont believe a word we government folks say. They think they have the right to disrupt our efforts to run the country for what we believe to be the benefit of the majority of the population. They must be sought out, monitored, and wherever possible silenced. They may be terrorist extremists."

TB200 Forum :- "Resist !! Buy Guns !! Evil gubbmint forces want to declare martial law and deny us our rights. The horror . . the humanity"

EXAMPLE 2 :-

Diane Squire (from a sacred space) :- ""These polly-troll elements can be dangerous. Why, they dont believe a word we sysops say. They think they have the right to disrupt our efforts to run the forum for what we believe to be the benefit of the majority of the readers. They must be sought out, monitored, and wherever possible silenced. They may be debunky extremists."

TB2000 forum :- "Hoorah, Go Diane, you're our hero . . go get em girl, Woohoo. Squash the polly trolls."

SPOT THE DIFFERENCE. {end snip}

I wrote to Chuck privately to request an explanation of why my thread was deleted. I paste here the introductory paragraph of his reply. I believe it will explain much.

{snip} One of the things that is a mistake is the expectation of a debate on this issue. Diane was charged with keeping a forum together. I was enlisted to assist. at no time was there any thought of letting one, or a group or a preponderance of posters decide what was posted. We have really not changed that. At no time are posts deleted because of factual or opinion content in ref Y2K. Continued attempts to debate what we are doing is counterproductive. {end snip}

So there you have it, from the moderators themselves. NO DEBATE ON THIS ISSUE WILL BE PERMITTED. YOU WILL BE CENSORED, WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT. DONT TRY TO VOICE AN OPINION OR YOU WILL BE DELETED.

My mind boggles at how the regular posters to a forum such as this are prepared to swallow that, but I suppose they just arent as politically savvy as they like to think. I fear you are finding out now what tolerating a regime such as this leads to. The silencing of the centre-ground. This is now a forum for EXTREMISTS ONLY. Its official.

In closing . . you are not the only person who has expressed concern. However, the regime is proving very effective at silencing any voice of opposition, so that it seems they are meeting with blanket approval. Maybe that says something about the regulars here. They arent so much against totalitarian dictatorships, so long as the dictator is "one of them". Which speaks volumes.

(This posted by W0lv3r1n3, but I'll use another name in the name and address fields to try to avoid this message being deleted by the forum gestapo before anyone sees it.)

W

-- just another (poster@on.the.forum.com), November 24, 1999.

AnN,

"...The guy even apologizes on down the thread."

Yes, that is the difference between Doomers and Trolls. When a Doomer is wrong, at least he will apologize. I've yet to see a Troll who has apologized when they have been wrong.

Yes, the Doomer made a completely inappropriate remark, but so have "Sucks" and "You Know Who", calling Diane a "b*tch", "f*ck off", etc... I've also yet to hear rational arguments from them. When a valid concern is brought up, the Trolls turn around and refuse to discuss the concern, or else turn to attacking the messenger - all to avoid discussing the issue in a rational manner.

All in all, it's the same deal. DeBunkies has censorship to delete unwarrented posts - TB2000 is doing the same thing with some of the Trolls who have REPEATEDLY been given the chance to post civilly and decided against it. They've spurned the opportunities given them, and are now paying the price. Welcome to the real world folks, it ain't pretty, but it is the truth.

-- Deb M. (vmcclell@columbus.rr.com), November 24, 1999.

Or even try this link (read down a little...):

http://stand77.com/wwwboard/messages/5074.html

See how CPR agrees: (..."shut the board down...") I think that explains it all. The whole reason for that board has been to torment and to harass this board. They're not even able to politely disagree with someone - there's always verbal attacks and spin. They don't seem to care about being accurate as long as they can try to verbally wound someone and make themselves feel better in the process.

Any newbie who looks at either board will see that the majority of the crazies are on DeBunkies. At least on this board, it is easier to analyze who is giving sound advice and who has "a few screws loose".

-- Deb M. (vmcclell@columbus.rr.com), November 24, 1999.

Well Deb....you just gave a better example of what I was trying to explain on this thread, than ANYTHING I could have come up with.

Let me preface by saying I IN NO WAY ADVOCATE WHAT REUBENS HAS/IS DOING RE:Y2K....but Deb that statement you attribute to him is just not true.

I clicked through on the link and read his ENTIRE post....TWICE....nowhere does he advocate 'shutting down that board'

You may be mistaking the former poster who is quoted automatically by the script that board is running...notice the little ":" before each line?

Do you see the point? It doesn't help anyone to spread untruths about their "opponents"....I don't have the thread but I remember reading that Reubens was one of the first to type (in ALL CAPS) that he was absolutely opposed to any attempts to remove the timebomb forum from MIT servers.

If WE want to get the truth out, we need to focus on what is important. Let people see the lies and deceptions on the part of extremists (on BOTH SIDES) for what they are....WE need to keep our noses clean and STICK TO THE ISSUE.

I know that some think it is just too late to "talk" anymore. I disagree. I am finding it easier to get people to prepare (my view is that even minimum preps are better than nothing....if only to hold people over until relief agencies can arrive, if needed) as we near the rollover. That niggling doubt in the back of their minds is less deniable than before, because the time is short.

One couple I've been speaking with for MONTHS has just started "extra shopping"....each time they go for groceries, they pick up extra bulk items, and cases of bottled water. (I know its not much, but it is a start) EVERY SINGLE PERSON that has even minimum preps is that much LESS strain on the system IF it snaps.

I emplore you all, PLEASE don't engauge the extremists in their mudslinging ploys. It wastes EVERYONE'S time.

DO NOT SINK TO THEIR LEVEL.

-- MiddleGrounder (y2kwillbe@5.or6), November 24, 1999.

Middle Grounder,

If I was wrong about attributing a quote to CPR, then I apologize. I would like to be known for fairness and a sense of compassion, which many extremists (especially on Debunkers)seem to lack.

However, I do agree with you, stop the fighting and concentrate on solving the issues, no matter what the consequences (many issues or none)of Y2K are. Too bad the extremists can't see the middle ground.

I'm willing for peace, anybody else?

-- Deb M. (vmcclell@columbus.rr.com), November 24, 1999.

Deb, ABSOLUTE NO REASON TO APOLOGIZE. You are indeed a fair-minded and intelligent individual....you saw what I pointed out, and wisely agreed with me! [GRIN!] Now if we could just get the four or five hundred others to agree with us as well...[BIGGER GRIN!!]

"hold the middle ground...it may be the only safe alternative"

I need to get back to work. Happy Turkey Day to ALL.

-- MiddleGrounder (y2kwillbe@5.or6), November 24, 1999.