I've had it! I have argued with my last DGI! I can take no more! 3 years of trying to tell all the people I care about that this is a real problem and not a paranoid delusion and I have just run out of patience! Are the majority of people in this country unconsiously hell-bent on committing mas suicide through denial and apathy? Screw 'em! Let them freeze to death...idiots!

Whew...glad to get that off my chest.

(This is not a troll by the way, I just felt the need to vent. Just had another incredibly infuriating argument with a friend of mine over this issue...pissed off!)

-- Ludi (ludi@rollin.com), November 15, 1999

Answers

Don't let it get to you, Ludi, some people will never be convinced. Just accept that your friend will most likely die soon and get on with your preps. There's nothing else you can do.

-- (its@coming.soon), November 15, 1999.

It's not possible to carry the world on ones own back. Let go of these people.

A number of people right now are silently saying their goodbyes to those who are utterly clueless and those who did not or would not prepare.

You do have that one rare opportunity in life to say your final goodbyes, and many people who've experienced the sudden death of family or friends wish they had been able to "know" the last time they saw the person.

That sounds acutely and perhaps an exaggerated doomsday scenario but some Y2Kers are actually seeing people they know plan to leap on the planes to be in Italy at the rollover. Stuff like that.

-- Paula (chowbabe@pacbell.net), November 15, 1999.

These are strange times indeed. If Paul Revere were to have ridden through the streets of my sleepy town, he would have been yanked from his horse by an angry mob, and beaten into silence.

-- Robert King (robking@dell.com), November 15, 1999.

i know what you mean. you can tell the type of people that are "teachable" versus "unteachable". they just don't want to hear anything the don't "discover" on their own--y2k or anything. just wait to see how nasty these same unteachables get when TSHTF.

i wrote something up this weekend about the two gordon mcdonald interviews/talks -- which are pretty alarming and contrasted it with the statement president clinton made last week. it was pretty scary if i say so myself. so i had it in the car because i was going to make copies and send it out.

one of the hockey mothers came over to my car and seeing it full of last minute y2k supplies, commented on it. she mentioned she was concerned about y2k but her husband wasn't. so i gave her a copy of the article. when i came back to pick up my son later--it was so wierd. her only comment was "yeah, pretty scary isn't it?" but i could tell she wasn't going to do a darn thing about it. BLOWS MY MIND HOW COMPLACENT PEOPLE ARE.

-- tt (cuddluppy@yahoo.com), November 15, 1999.

ANXIETY...That sums up me right now. I still don't know what to believe, although I lean toward the problematic scenarios. I have all the necessary preps(hopefully), and have told the people I care about that it's good to have "insurance".

Y2k is like a faucet filling me up. I just wish it would hurry up and get here, one way or another, I don't care...just let's get it on so I can quit thinking about it. Someone hit the FF key on this wacky VCR...

-- CygnusXI (noburnt@toast.net), November 15, 1999.

Paula,

Why would anyone want to be in Italy? Supposedly they are much less prepared than we are.

I think it's time for everyone to ease up. Do your preps, celebrate Christmas and stop all the hysterical chatter. It doesn't help. Que sera sera.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), November 15, 1999.

I know what you mean just got off the phone with my mother....All she can say is "well your computers at your store weren't ready but you got them fixed, how hard can that be" She's right we did upgrade our computers, we own a very *small* mom and pop video rental store (3terminals and 1 office computer not linked to suppliers)..duh She thinks if we are smart enough to fix ours the gov and the big business have got to be smarter...again duh.. I'm not a Troll. Just a lurker....

-- marli (can'tget@it.duh), November 15, 1999.

DGItis may be a terminal disease. Think of it as if a loved one smokes heavily. You may tell them (repeatedly?) it isn't good for them (although they KNOW that), but at some point - like when they are told they have terminal cancer and have less than 6 months to live - you realize it is time to stop nagging and just love them.

If you have informed yourself, convinced yourself it is a problem worth preparing for, and then have tried to share that knowledge with your loved ones, you have done about all you can. Relax, be at peace. It will get worse before it gets better and you will need to be calm when the storm (3-day?!-ha!) hits.

-- Linda (lwmb@psln.com), November 15, 1999.

46 days...24 Federal (workdays) left...won't be long now.

-- K. Stevens (kstevens@ It's ALL going away in January.com), November 15, 1999.

I know what you mean. This weekend at my uncle's birthday party, he got a mag light and some knit gloves and a knit cap, etc. Some sweats. My grandma pointed out that those were great things for Y2K. I was shocked. Was she a GI and I didn't know it? I thought her pantry looked AWFULLY well stocked for one person. My mom looked at me, expecting me to pounce all over that comment but, still feeling a bit put out about being declared a "paranoid freak" two weeks prior, I pouted and said I wasn't going to talk about it w/them anymore. She looked right at me and said "GOOD!" Grrrr!!!! Then my aunt made a joke about how they would just come to my house (GRRRRRRRRR!!!!! NO YOU ARE NOT!!!! You wouldn't make it there!!!) and how I better be sure to keep my rice away from the water heater in case it explodes. I didn't quite understand that, but I assured her that my rice is UP stairs quite far away from the water heater and in big plastic buckets. I forgot myself, b/c this elicited first shocked stares at me, then huge guffaws of laughter. One of my brothers clapped me on the back and managed to choke out (betw laughs) that I absolutely CRACK him up!!!!

Great, glad to be the entertainment folks. 46 days.

-- preparing (preparing@home.com), November 15, 1999.

marli:

You don't seem to realize that *everything* scales up in bigger organizations. You had a simple task, and the resources to handle a simple task. Great. Of course your resources wouldn't have been sufficient for a larger task, but they have resources suited to the task. Yes, they have hundreds of complex systems. They also have hundreds of people who deal with complex systems every day as their sole profession. These things average out.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), November 15, 1999.

Ludi --

I've pretty much clamped up myself, except under rare circumstances (see "Technical Article" I put up today). A person can only take so much before he/she gives up. Noah had to do the same thing. Notice he didn't let anybody in the ark when TSHTF either. It was too late to save everybody then. Take notice of that fact. Something to think about.

Linda--

I told my uncle time and time again about his drinking. He reached a point where he's doctor told him he had severe health problems (the Liver was just one problem). He was in a big state of denial. Well, he's now dead before he even saw his 50th birthday. Denial can kill.

-- Larry (cobol.programmer@usa.net), November 15, 1999.

Hey guys, Maybe this is just a case of natural selection and we should just accept it. Those that have their head up their butts will not survive and the rest can move on. It absolutely amazes me how people can have so little rational thought even when faced with fact such as massive shutdowns after rollover attempts.

-- Silver Star ('Marking time @in back 40's.com'), November 15, 1999.

You all need to quit worrying about what other people are not doing and start thinking about yourselves and how your going to manage ITSHTF. Quit wasting needless energy on those people, time is getting short, start focusing on the things that really matter, and that's yourself and family.

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), November 15, 1999.

Maybe its just a case of natural selection and we should just accept it. Those with theie heads up their proverbial butts will not survive but the rest will carry on. Though the friends and family bit is such a terrible thing. I luckily have all immediate family of like mind and we have been working together for approxiamately a year and a half to get all preps done. In the home stretch now if we can get the heavy snowfalls to delay awhile longer.

-- Silver Star (MarkingTime@inback40.com), November 15, 1999.

it just like people who live in california near an earthquake zone. they know that "the big one" is coming someday, but life goes on. remember, you can't make a person save themself, nor should you try. even if we are wrong, what have we lost, we who prepare? btw, italy is a location where people have learned to cope and adapt to shortages and failure of services and such, or so i've read.

-- RZN (robinsun@netscape.net), November 15, 1999.

Face it, some people are just dense.

-- Amy Leone (leoneamy@aol.com), November 15, 1999.

"Evolution in action" [source possibly Heinlein ?? anyone know]
"To protect fools from the effects of their folly is to fill the world with fools" [Herbert Spencer]

-- A (A@AisA.com), November 15, 1999.

Hey,

Thanks for all the considerate and thoughtful responses...nice to know I'm not alone in this and that others have dealt with the same difficulties. I've only been on this forum for a couple weeks, but it has helped me sort a lot of things out both situationally and intellectually.

Again, my thanks!

John Ludi, prepping in Chicago.

-- Ludi (ludi@rollin.com), November 15, 1999.

Just thought I'd ask:

Its Nov. 15th, 1999 What in Gods name are any of you doing still attempting to force people to see the light?????

I would suggest that the time to do that was months ago. At this point everything you do, especially if you live in a neighborhood with nosey neighbors, should be done covertly at nite or in the wee hours when absolutely no one is watching, this means unloading cases of canned goods or several gallons of kero etc. Also if you have children they should be given repeated-(over and over) comments to keep their little mouths quiet.

If all of us have intuited this thing correctly and we have food and the neighbors do not than guess what you just did for your family by opening your big fat mouth trying to convince someone. I submit the only reason anyone is talking to any dgi at this late date is purely egotistically from an immature standpoint of--"hey look at me I will be ready, but you won't". "I'm so smart and visionary and your an idiot". Analysis of this behaviour would be well spent!!

-- d.b. (dciinc@aol.com), November 15, 1999.

i've been "diagnosed" as having been experiencing vietnam-based pts (post traumatic stress) as a direct, "rational" response triggered by anticipation of the pending y2k melt-down. Having a rough time of it, fearing a triggering of cardiac event.

i'm fed up, too. on the surface, some veterans admin therapists are putting on the charade that they "get it" and are also "willing" to assist those of us so afflicted in the short time remaining. it's all about coping with y2k consequences without over-reacting in the throes of it all. you know--a la mai lai?

hang in there for the ride.

hanging low and loose in spite of the system ... y2ktranscient@yahoo.com

-- y2ktranscient (y2ktranscient@yahoo.com), November 15, 1999.

actually- I don't come on heavy about y2k to anyone anymore- but- if they are receptive? I'll discuss it.

I had a "conversion" so to speak just this weekend with an old dear friend who lives in a major East Coast city in a highrise, you get the picture. She hasn't thought anything of it til now. But- I said something light about it in our phone conv. and she said- "what do you think"? I said I had no idea what would happen but I'd sure rather be ready than not. She related as to how she had figured she'd just hang back with the crowd as they were doing nothing, and figured the doomsayers had to be wrong. I said- yes. "But what if they're right"?

there was silence- and she repeated- "but what if they're right?" and that did it- no-she's not running out to buy a generator, etc- but she IS picking up extra food, stashing some water, batteries, candles, flashlight- etc- she was going to tell her sister and her mother and run right out to the store- hopefully- this will be enough to get her by for awhile if shortages, etc occur- better than nothing.

It was the mental image of her kitchen cabinets stocked with only soy sauce, ketshup and relish packets left over from take-out that propelled her. So- I think- it's not totally too late to at least get some people to do some preps- just too late for major ones.

-- farmer (hillsidefarm@drbs.com), November 15, 1999.

farmer - Congratulations! That's the Y2K equivalent of finding a survivor a week after the quake. A rare but joyeous event. Still the reality is that the majority are buried under tons of PR spin and gov't and banker disinformation and haven't been able to see the light of truth or catch the cold breeze of reality. It's probably too late for much but prayer and clearing of rubble.

-- Linda (lwmb@psln.com), November 15, 1999.

Howdy--

Personally, I will go on trying to convince as many people as I can. That's a personal choice, and by the way, I probably won't be where anyone can find me Jan 1,2,or 3.

I've also had some conversions lately, as well. Handing out a prep document to some friends (found at http://rampages.onramp.net/~bcheek/y2k/What-You-Should.htm ) has had some impact on several friends. Not, however, on my folks, or the rest of my family (excepting the one or two who were perplexed at my mailing...since they already have generators, a month's supply of food, and are well armed...as a matter of daily lifestyle.)

One friend: "Stop it, Bill, you're scaring me." He got it right away. Odd, isn't it, how some folks nail it in five minutes, and others...never will.

Another friend (Hispanic, and frankly, I am not sure, given his English, how much of my fifty page missive he really read) asked:

"Are you serious about this?"

"What have you done (to prepare)?"

"Why did you tell me this?"

Every answer was met with grim-faced thoughtful silence. I hope that I've been able to do some good.

Personally, I expect a lot of deathbed conversions in December as the sorta-got-its decide that time is growing short. Every Aladdin lamp and every pound of beans bought before Xmas is to the good.

However. Those of you sticking it out in suburban and urban locations might want to shut up around now. People will remember, and they will panic. Fresh in my mind is the Twilight Zone episode where the nuclear alert is called and the only guy who prepared has to lock his neighbors out of the bunker. Hard choices.

However. Things might not fall apart completely. Things may hold in a lot of areas, and things may get put back together within a couple of days. In that case, helping out will emphatically be the right thing to do. Of course, no one knows how long this thing might last.

Hard choices. Sorry for the mixed messages.

I wish all of you well, with whatever personal decisions you make on the issues of warning and sharing.

-- William in Dallas (bcheek@onramp.net), November 15, 1999.

d.b. (dciinc@aol.com)

"I submit the only reason anyone is talking to any dgi at this late date is purely egotistically from an immature standpoint of--"hey look at me I will be ready, but you won't". "I'm so smart and visionary and your an idiot". Analysis of this behaviour would be well spent!! "

How dare you take that tone with me, when we are talking about my dearly beloved daughter that I have had to say "Good-bye" to because she is a DWGI and lives too far from me for any supplies I have to help. If I could persuade her to at least "visit" me until after the New Year I would thank God. But I fear she has the same stubborn streak as her mother and would rather die than admit she was wrong. We can't save the world, but God help us, can't we even save our own?

-- Lois Knorr (knorr@attcanada.net), November 15, 1999.

Ludi: Do not think that the people now are unique in their DWGI attitudes. The same thing prevailed prior to WW II. With all the warning signs showing viz Hitler & Tojo, Americans generally believed that it was their problem over there and did not concern us. After all, did we not have the Atlantic and Pacific to separate us? Let them take care of their own problems. I see many parallels now.

-- Neil G.Lewis (pnglewis1@yahoo.com), November 16, 1999.

d.b.,

I have to concur with the others and say that you really missed the mark with your comments...at least regarding my own sentiments. I happen to have a list (a relatively short list to be sure) of people that I care about, people who I would like to spare from any undue suffering if I can. If it is their Karma that they do suffer at the hands of their own willful ignorance then so be it, but I have to try whatever I can. And I don't think it'll be too late for anyone to do at least SOME prep until the last can of beans leaves the shelves.

-- Ludi (ludi@rollin.com), November 16, 1999.

For what it's worth denial is sometimes referred to as "sincere delusion"; and in order to be "in" deep denial some part of the person KNOWS what they are denying.

I have some family, not dense particularly, but pretty fragile psychologically...when anyone presses on their denial about anything they have very strange responses that border on thought decompensation. In grad school for counseling one of the first things taught is that you cannot drag people kicking and screaming out of denial. You can present information (once is best), and what they do with it is up to them; I cannot control outcome...yes...say it again...I cannot control outcome.

Hang in there.

She in the sheet, watching the tiger swallowtails from the hilltop,...

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), November 16, 1999.

Ludi --

I know. It is frustrating and horrible. BUT, it can be worth it. Personally, I am keeping a very low profile in my neighborhood. Most of the people in the area bought every bit as much house as they could possibly finance and are in debt to their eyebrows. The answers I would get, from casual conversations, amount to 'I can't afford that, I'll just come over to your house.'. Knowing this, I keep my head down, and have prepared a 'low profile' strategy.

But I work nearly an hour from home. And most of the folks I work with live nearly an hour away... in the other direction from work, almost 2 hours from here. (In normal traffic, rush hour would be more like 3 hours. Panic mode traffic, well, suffice to say I expect it would take a LOOONG time to get here.)

So at work, I can be a bit more forthcoming about it. And what-do-you-know. I have made a few conversions. (And it is the damndest thing. Engineers, who KNOW that we are going to suffer significant failures, KNOW that we were, if not THE industry leader in this area, at least one of the top 5 among the Fortune 500, KNOW in one or two cases, because they have been outright TOLD that our strategy is 'Fix-on-Failure', since the remediation didn't work well, DON'T GET IT. Secretaries, (or executive assistants, as they are now called), with no more knowledge of the technology than my 7 year-old great-granddaughter, listened for 5 minutes, and even with the admonition that they really ought to talk to other people, with differing opinions, (and I even named a couple of the other Senior Engineers, folks with good reputations, as I felt that they really ought to hear the other side, from people with credentials), got it immediately. Strange.)

Additionally, I was on a trip not long ago, back to a place where I lived for a number of years. Saw some old friends. The issue was initiated by them, in each case, and each of them got it in minutes. Not to the same extent in each case, but sufficient. One will prepare for what she can envision as being all she could cope with. (The good news is, she lives in a neighborhood where there is the potential for a 'community effort'. And in her situation, I encouraged her to go with that. Additionally, she has at least one GI neighbor. This is why she brought it up. Wanted to hear it from someone who's credentials she knew. This will help her, as she can 'back up' the other persons information and suggestions.) The others are already in a good position. They have a large garden, same as every year for the last 70 odd, they can the excess, (of which there is plenty), they live in a climate conducive to a very long growing season, and other than the water and sewer, pretty much control all of the elements they need anyway.

This is simply to suggest that it is not a hopeless task. And, it could be *very* rewarding. But I would keep in mind the potential for the 'doorstep problem', and limit the range of my attempts.

Flint --

Yep. Things scale up in a large organization. Too bad they don't scale well in *efficiency* too. Management is likely the *problem*, not the cure.

-- just another (another@engineer.com), November 16, 1999.