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greenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread

Please tell me that this talk about a war with nukes is a joke, or someones weird way of trying to scare people. My little brother just read on this site something about a Russian Nuke Attack ?? A war is something I never quite thought of. I figured everyone would have enough problem os their own than to worry about war.

That was just a joke right ? Or do you people really believe this is a possibility. If you do, then I need to start going to church more often : )

-- Cody Bierman (mindcrime@uswest.net), November 14, 1999

Answers

connect the dots would ya! Does the concept of 'use it or lose it' mean anything to you in the context of a Y2K infrastructure breakdown (as in military technology)?

-- Porky (Porky@in.cellblockD), November 14, 1999.

Cody, Go to church. It probably won't harm you. As to the Russian nuclear thing, well...I have my doubts. There's not a lot of overwhelming evidence, so I wouldn't fret too much about that. However, there is a lot of evidence that Y2K is going to mess things up. I hope your family has food and water. Best.

-- Mara (MaraWayne@aol.com), November 14, 1999.

The "jokes" here can be very twisted. It's some people's way of overcomming fear - think of the worst and hope for the best.

Nuclear (both for energy and for war) are at risk. Everything is at risk if enough errors occur.

This site isn't exactly for children, even most teens. Of course narrow minded adults or pure newbies can have a hard time here too.

One has to sort through it to find "solid" info.

PS: example of sick Y2K humor: if you go to church, the FBI considers you are a terrorist/waco.

-- dw (y2k@outhere.com), November 14, 1999.


Hi Cody,

No Cody, it is not a joke. I do agree with the idea that y2k is far more to worry about because there is no way to be sure whether the factions in Russia and China will succeed in making a plan, getting support, and carrying it out by the end of the year, at which time their old computer systems will fail and they will be set back years in their defenses and infrastructure.

I was not aware of the situation in Russia until I learned of it on Tom Atlee's site. There are just a handful of reports, but they are very disturbing and really made me rethink what I had assumed about our relations with Russia and China. They are much worse than is reported, that is for sure.

As for their dependence on us, if they are able to see that y2k will disable them, then they will also see that it could create havoc with global trade and agriculture in the US.

I do not set forth these things as a certainty, for me there are far worse risks in y2k to nuke power and refineries and chemical factories and loss of infrastructure here. But we are refering to reports that are definitely serious and I would never joke about such a thing. Sorry to upset you, but I will look for the links and post them immediately so you can read them for yourself and come to your own conclusions.

Lora

-- Lora (artemis@hotmail.com), November 15, 1999.


Cody, you'll find "New Lies For Old by Anatoly Golytsin more than illuminating background reading on this topic [Golytsin was the Russian defector who warned us quite a few years ago of the then- coming detailed Russian plan for strategically deceiving and disarming the West prior unexpected baring a 'mailed fist' before our surprised eyes.

If you don't have time to find and read the book, search the Web for extracts from it - there's some reference to it in an extract from a 1996 article entitled 'Back To The USSR - With A Vengeance' on my own site.

You might also find 'Deceiving America', on the same site, to be of interest.

-- John Whitley (jwhitley@inforamp.net), November 15, 1999.



Cody,

Don't worry about it. Explain the meaning of propaganda to your little brother. Tell him that there are all kinds of looney tunes out there who will promote fear and do twisted things for political and financial gains, but the Russians are not that stupid.

Most of these jerkoffs posting this stuff are like 12 year olds who like to play "Risk" and fantasize about World Wars. They have collections of G.I. Joe dolls in their bedroom and they cream their jeans when they read magazines about nuclear missiles. Very sick people.

There will probably always be small terrorist incidents, but those will be few and far between. There isn't going to be any more major wars or invasions involving nuclear superpowers.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), November 15, 1999.


Cody,

Here are the links I promised, sorry they aren't hot.

Tom Atlee's site

http://www.cointelligence.org/y2k_toxics-nukes.html http://www.cointelligence.org/y2k_toxics-nukes#nuke weapons.html http://www.cointelligence.org/y2k_nuke_balkanwar.html

Daniel Fisher's site

http://www.angelfire.com/or/truthfinder/

this is the main site, look on the left menu and choose "A Prophet's Distress" and follow the links in the documents that follow

Lora

-- Lora (artemis@hotmail.com), November 15, 1999.


Cody...

In an effort to answear your question, several things must be considered by you.

Firstly, Russia, for all intents and purposes, is being run by their military at this moment. Even the TV news states that.

Secondly, their military forces have feilded two totally new ICBM missle systems this year. Read that as being y2k compiant systems.

Three, even the TV news has stated that their politicians have continued to build and stock under ground cities.

Thirdly, the little war going on over there right now, is being used as a test bed for several new weapons systems they have deployed.

Fourthly The russian Generals have stated that they now consider tactical nuclear capibilty in the battle feild a norm (for their planning).

Now look at our readiness...Sigh, what readiness? Our nuclear missle carrying subs would have to radio in for the launch codes (The Prez has had them removed from the subs). The Launch on warning concpthas bee recinded. Now we have to wait for the bombs to acually go off on American soil,before we will return fire.

And look at the defence treaties that they have signed with China (N. Korea, and soon, may be India).

Y2K is...as I have stated, no matter how hard it hits us and the world. It is still the "Trigger"for all the rest of it coming down the pike at us.

And I AM going to church now....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Shakey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The Russian Military mind set has always been "When we have a war with the USA...Not if

-- Shakey (in_a_bunker@forty.feet), November 15, 1999.


Think very hard on the following;

There are a lot of countries that hate (not dislike) hate the US.

There are two nuclear powers with a combined 1 million + armie that hate the US.

The technological edge may provide the US with an absolute superiority that can not be matched in the future.

Future administrations may install an anti-missile system, while the present one has disarmed the military because there are no enemies.

This is THE WINDOW and China and Russia both know this. The window may close after next year? I am asking my Congressman to pass a law REQUIRING the US Ballistic missile subs to be at sea before December 21,1999. We may be facing our own Pearl Harbor but there is no reason not to be prepared.

Been there, done that. Never had to launch when there was deterence.

Nero is warming up...

-- squid (Itsdarker@down.here), November 15, 1999.


No one has ever explained to me why "use it or lose it" is a rational concept in regard to a Russian or Chinese attack on the USA. I can think of a number of reasons why it would be nonsense.

There is no assurance that, just because their nuclear capability would be compromised by Y2K that our ability to counterattack would be equally compromised. If they launch, odds are they get atomized. This is the same old mutually assured destruction (MAD) that has worked for, lo, these past 40 years. Y2K doesn't change it.

If the Russians or the Chinese believed that, in the absence of their own nuclear forces, we would be *guaranteed* to launch against them, then perhaps they might opt to go out with a bang. But this is psychologically all wrong if they have even a small doubt about our intention to launch. So, again, it won't happen.

Weapons are only used when they are useful for some purpose. ICBMs are only useful in their silos, serving the purpose of deterrence. Our nuclear forces are sufficient to maintain assured destruction of any foe. That is all that is needed to prevent any use it or lose it *strategy*.

Accidental launch is whole 'nother story.

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), November 15, 1999.



Time to drag out this oldie but still pertinent:

Great. Russia blatantly threatened us with Y2K, and we've given them exactly the excuse they were looking for.

"Use It Or Lose It" They're foaming to keep their word on this one!

E X P E C T T O B E N U K E D

Russia Threatens US With Y2K Nuke Attack

URL dead now, but it's in archives lotsa times

[ Fair Use: For Educational/Research Purposes Only ]

3/2/99 -- 7:45 PM

Official: Tensions With NATO Raise Danger of False Missile

MOSCOW (AP) - Russia's disputes with the West over Iraq and Yugoslavia are increasing the chances that Moscow would retaliate after a false warning of a missile attack, a top Russian defense official said Tuesday.

False missile warnings may be caused by the Year 2000 computer bug - which Russia has been slow to tackle - or other radar glitches, said Vladimir Dvorkin, head of a Defense Ministry department in charge of missile-warning systems.

He insisted that Russia would be much less likely to retaliate for a false alarm caused by the so-called ``millennium bug'' if the United States and NATO heeded Moscow's demands and called off the bombings of Iraq and the threat of airstrikes against Yugoslavia.

``The risk of making the wrong decision is higher when international tensions escalate,'' Dvorkin was quoted as saying by the Interfax news agency.

``The risk of such mistakes, including those caused by the unresolved Y2K problem, would be eliminated if international tensions eased, especially in conflict regions such as Iraq and Yugoslavia,'' he said.

Dvorkin didn't specify what could cause a false missile-attack warning besides the Y2K bug, saying only that ``theoretically, mistakes are possible.''

In 1995, Russian officials apparently mistook a Norwegian rocket launch for a missile aimed at Russia, prompting President Boris Yeltsin to open his ``black case'' containing nuclear launch codes. No attack was launched.

While Moscow may not respond to a false warning with an all-out nuclear strike, he refused to specify just how it would react to a mistaken alarm from its strategic radar.

`` It doesn't mean that a decision will be made to use all stockpiled nuclear forces in retaliation to a (perceived) mass attack ,'' he said.

[ Just *some* of them will do ]

At the same time, the Defense Ministry sought to stress that it was dealing successfully with the Y2K bug, and the risk of it causing Russia's nuclear forces to fire off unintentionally was negligible. Still, Dvorkin said that 74 control centers of Russia's Strategic Nuclear Forces were judged in ``critical'' condition because of their unpreparedness for the Y2K glitch.

But he insisted that Russia will resolve the problem by the end of the year.

[ Sure has NOT happened yet! ]

Russia has said it needs up to $3 billion to tackle the millennium bug problem, and appealed to NATO for help.
---------------------------------------------------------------

This was BEFORE we so brilliantly bombed Yugoslavia to smithereens.
And now officials are puzzled why Russia is dragging its feet?
Duh! They want to have this promised excuse to nuke us!

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), November 15, 1999.


No war except by accident or crazies and we do have a few of those.

If Amercia was bombed out, who would grow the grain that keeps Russia from starving? Who would buy all the stuff made in the Chinese factories?

It is an old saying, "When America catches cold, the rest of the world gets pneumonia".

Remember the Great Depression? We go Roosevelt, the New Deal, CCC, TVA, WPA, etc. The Germans got Hitler and the Gestapo.

-- woody (woody11420@aol.com), November 15, 1999.


Ashton & Leska in Cascadia,

You should be ashamed of yourselves. You appear to be deliriously overjoyed when you are fear-mongering, and I think that is sick. Take a look at this thread and see what you are doing:

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001lz8

Brian,

I am very happy to see that there is at least one rational mind left among this motley bunch. Thank you for being here and being honest, instead of promoting this sick sensationalism.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), November 15, 1999.


"Fear cannot be banished, but it can be calm and without panic; and it can be mitigated by reason and evaluation."

Vannevar Bush

-- QuotesR (us@the.moment), November 15, 1999.


Hawk, sweetiepie, sorry the FACTUAL DIRECT QUOTES from the Russian Military in News Articles is perceived as fearmongering. The fact remains, well, just read it. When the subject is brought up, the historical record of Russian promises is brought forth.

Now you just go berate the Russian Doomers for being so impolite and saying what they said. It might help get your point across to bang your shoe on the table ;^)

Shame on the Forum for looking into the facts and examining the glaring CLUES, the outright STATEMENTS addressing the considered issues.

Yep, it's an older post; we had more energy then, more hope. Now we're faded, prepping for our own death, on our own hospice.

And thank God for this Forum which gave us enough facts to be able to prepare. A good death is invaluable. Mental preparation is a gift.

You might want to cozy up to Koffinsky and lap up his fluffy cotton candy -- it'll zone you out in a pretty sugary haze.

Just don't read the factual news reporting: Such sick sensationalism might disturb your placid happy face mirage.

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), November 15, 1999.



A&L,

"Use It Or Lose It" They're foaming to keep their word on this one!

E X P E C T T O B E N U K E D

Duh! They want to have this promised excuse to nuke us!"

No, you're not trying to hype fear are you? I wasn't referring to the article, it is the way you presented it that is SICK!

You are so far off base on this on it is disgusting.

"You might want to cozy up to Koffinsky and lap up his fluffy cotton candy -- it'll zone you out in a pretty sugary haze."

You know DAMN WELL that I have always encouraged others to think for themselves, and DO NOT listen to the government. You're the ones who are always whining that Clinton is telling you what you should do, because you're too STUPID to figure it out yourselves!

"Just don't read the factual news reporting"

Yes I DO read the FACTUAL news reporting. That is why I know that we have Russian officials in our country at this very moment trying to RESOLVE any problems with the nuclear systems. You seem to be either COMPLETELY IGNORANT about this or you just thought it would be more FUN to post 8 month old reports trying to scare people.

So WHO are the ones who are not reading the FACTUAL reporting??

Get a grip and take some responsibility for what you post on this forum.

YOU STUPID SORRY SICK BASTARDS!!

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), November 15, 1999.


We have lived with the nuke threat since 1945. It's an old, familiar terror. I was only a toddler during the Cuban Missile Crisis, but we also survived a nuclear alert during the 1973 Yom Kippur war that no one knew about for years. But I remember it, we are in the flight path of several air bases and the planes were roaring overhead 24-7.

Nuke fear got old even then, people would say that they feared the end of the world and then forget about it and watch TV. No one can be afraid all the time. Yet at the same time most of us agree that it WILL happen someday, a terrorist or a rogue nation, whatever. Yet we shut it out of our minds, we have to, or we couldn't live normally.

We are some kinda wacked out species, eh?

-- Forrest Covington (theforrest@mindspring.com), November 15, 1999.


Hawk...You are full of birdsh*t...pardon my French.

Of course no one KNOWS either way, so don't pompously and egotistically assert that it CAN'T happen. Ashton & Leska are showing the courage to face what may come...IF THEY MUST. At least someone listening to them may buy potassium iodide and learn how to get rudimentary shelter. People may survive because of them. On the other hand, you spout off insults and ass-ume you have the straight dope from the Big Nuclear Crystal Ball in the sky. I don't think you can rationalize or understand or explain evil, and make no mistake, weapons of mass destruction are evil indeed. Can you rationalize and explain the Holocaust? If you can, then I'll listen to why you think America will never be attacked in this evil way.

-- Mumsie (shezdremn@aol.com), November 15, 1999.


Hawk, a, or whatever your calling yourself this week. I have been a lurker on this board since it's begining. Ashton and Leska are thoughtful people who have posted many beautiful things on this forum. They do not deserve the disrespectful language in the above verbal attack you posted. I have seen your idiotic type here over and over. They come and they go.After reading your responses here the last few weeks, you come off sounding like the village idiot.

-- Jeff (124@4.com), November 15, 1999.

Hey Mumsie and Jeff - go F**K each other!

I don't give a CRAP if A & L are "brave enough" to be ready to die, that is THEIR choice. They are SICK to come on to this forum telling other people like Cody with a young son...

" E X P E C T T O B E N U K E D "

And DICKSHIT Jeff (shitforbrains), I have been using the name Hawk ever since some fricking troll started using my previous name. This was not MY choice, he STOLE it and started posting troll crap, so BITE ME! I'm not gonna "come and go", I've been on this forum for a year and a half, and I'm here to STAY pal, so you better get used to me. I don't put up with this kind of totally unfounded fear-mongering CRAP, especially when you are scaring innocent people.

You two can go straight to Hell with A & L.

(*V*)

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), November 15, 1999.


Hawk, please lay off of Ashton and Leska. They are not fear mongering, they are just recognizing that a real danger of nuclear war in the next few months does exist. If you want to trash someone take it out on me. I am the one who kept hammering this subject until all the regulars on this forum were aware of just how precarious the situation really is. You are in denial as there is no way you will be able to anticipate or prepare for events of this magnitude, which is an understandable condition. I try not to think about it myself nowdays. That doesn't change the fact that Clinton has set us up to be totally anhilated through either treachery or stupidity. Now do I think there will be a surprise attack in late December? Well...it's too close to call.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), November 15, 1999.

Hawk,

That last post was childish. You might consider washing your mouth out with soap, not posting for about 2 months, then coming back and trying to act civilized..

You began by ranting, and making stupid assertions, such as:

"There isn't going to be any more major wars or invasions involving nuclear superpowers. "

[Right -- you know of course] and by pinging on anyone who doesn't accept what you say immediately. Grow up little boy.

You might want to begin by reading a lot of Nyquist's material. If you have to ask for a URL then it only indicates that you are shooting your mouth off without knowing anything. [Hint: try Worldnetdaily and NewsMax.com archives.]

Russia has been pulling a con game, folks. Announcing massive shortages, near starvation......and people buy into it. Then the fact that they actually had a surplus of food last winter goes unnoticed.

Question for all the big brains who wonder what Russia will do without us to feed them: Russia cries starvation. We ship grain. They have a surplus of their own grains (unnoticed). Where does the extra grain go?

Answer: Underground cities, in Russia, ready to be used after the nuke war they consider to be winnable.

And, for those who cite the Mutual Assured Destruction (MAD) policy, it no longer exists. Clinton has changed that policy and we will no longer shoot on their launch, but only after we've been hit with the first wave -- if there's anything left to shoot back with.

A&L have good reason to be suspicious of the Russians. Those who brush it off should try reading between the lines and forget what comes out of the mainstream media. You may not buy into a possible Russian attack, but to make a statement like Hawk made indicates total lack of comprehension. To react as he did indicates total lack of stability.

-- de (delewis@XOUTinetone.net), November 15, 1999.


It is a common trait for those (like Hawk) who lack knowledge, the ability to think critically and reason analytically, and good breeding to resort to virulent and irrational spewings of venomous bile.

Hawk, realize it or not, you have most likely lost credibility with the vast majority of Yourdonites by attacking Ashton and Leska. You have demoted yourself to Trolldom.

Dear A & L, pay no heed to the pusillanimous pissant.

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), November 15, 1999.


Nikoli,

No, sorry, I'm not going to blame you because you intelligently discuss this issue in a fairly rational manner. There is a big difference between knowing the reality we are in, and creating a new reality based on fear.

I get pissed because people just don't get it. Our thoughts literally create our reality. Ashton and Leska might think it is ok if they want to choose fearful thoughts to create a fearful reality for themselves, and that is their choice. But when you spread this kind of fear, everyone begins to have fearful thoughts, and it is the mass consciousness that creates this reality we live in.

The scenario for a possible nuclear war only exists because of fear. It is the combination of all the fearful thoughts within the human race about our so-called "enemies" wanting to destroy us that actually creates this condition of fear in which we now find ourselves. We get exactly what we think. Fear.

I know that deep inside everyone knows this, but on this forum there are too many who think the opposite. What they resist, persists because their thoughts are all based on fear. I don't think I can recall any more profound words spoken by a human being than these: "There is nothing to fear but fear itself."

The reason I say I know there will be no nuclear armageddon is because I have faith in humanity. I just know that we know we will not take that final step to complete destruction of the human race, because we know deep inside that it is based on false fear, it is not real.

de,

Please don't even talk to me about Nyquist. Just the mention of his name makes me sick. He is the exact opposite of the best that the human race is capable of. If people would look at that guy and say "I want to be the exact opposite of him," the planet Earth would be a living paradise. Nuff said.

No apologies to A & L. They know exactly what they are doing and they know it is not right. Read the other post by Cody where he describes how he gets physically ill when he hears people fostering these fearful views. Because we are not meant to live this way. I know A & L are decent people because I have seen them say decent things before, but I am guessing that this late at night they may be intoxicated, or since they are now fearful of their own death, they wish to destroy everyone else's joy in life. I don't know, but they know better.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), November 15, 1999.


If'n y'all are really scared, and this is supposedly still a prep forum, then how bout offering some preps? Like this

http://oism.org/nwss/

Thi is a great site with a 'How to survive the nukes' book. Enough argueing already! Get with the preps!!!

-- Billy Boy (Rakkasan@Yahoo.com), November 15, 1999.


Enough with the brawling everyone. If your worried about the Nuke War scene, then prep for it. Move. leave. Dee-Part with Haste. heres a good link for you to look at if you really are scared.

http://oism.org/nwss/

(I tried to post this 20 minutes ago so forgive me if it doubles.)

-- Billy Boy (Rakkasan@Yahoo.com), November 15, 1999.


Mumsie! Good to see you posting again! Good to see you too, De! :-)

Hawk... never mind, I'm not even going to go there.

-- Gayla (privacy@please.com), November 15, 1999.


Hawk,

Our thoughts literally create our reality?

Hmmmmm.....

So, what it seems like you're saying is, if one doesn't think something is going to be bad, it won't be. That we can just 'not think about it', and it won't be a problem.

Sounds to me like a lot of DGI thinking there, Hawk.

Ever notice that in many people, the *thing* that is their HOT BUTTON is the very thing that they are so very fearful of? To the point where they will not listen to *anything* that encroaches on their 'reality' of being?

Hawk, how is your way of thinking ANY different than the most die- hard DGI/DWGI? It's not. "It's in the best interest of big business to fix this". "*They* wouldn't let this happen"....

The person who flatly refuses to allow anything scary into their own 'world of reality' about Y2k is doing the same thing as you are: ignoring the possibility/hard evidence that your cozy little existance may indeed be threatened, and threatened by the likes of things over which we have NO control.

I think you have deliberately chosen to ignore this possibility because it is personally terrifying to you. You have your fingers in your ears, and are singing 'Tra-la-la-laa...I can't HEAR you...." because this is too big of a monster for you to contemplate.

Your behavior toward Ashton & Leska and Jeff was boorish. You need to re-group and think about this for awhile. Don't let your fears take control of you in such a destructive way.

-- Wilferd (WilferdW@aol.com), November 15, 1999.


Hawk: "But when you spread this kind of fear, everyone begins to have fearful thoughts, and it is the mass consciousness that creates this reality we live in."

Really? Then you have just defined yourself as a big bad ol' Y2K fearmonger. You better stop thinking those paranoid nasty thoughts about imbedded chips and disruptions to our fuel supply and JIT food chain! Would it help if we all mind melded and chanted together...."The bug is squashed....the world is compliant.....ommmmm....."

Hawk: "The scenario for a possible nuclear war only exists because of fear. " Yee haw! What logic! Let's see.....Nuclear scientists and plutonium wouldn't have nuttin to do with it... nah... neither would insanely power hungry megalomaniac people.... nah.... it's those nasty fear thoughts.....ommm.....visualizing world peace....ommm.....utopia...."

Hawk: "We get exactly what we think." Well gee whillikers, how come there isn't a winning lottery ticket in my pocket instead of some linty breath mints? I suppose you think that paraplegics could walk if they think and will it hard enough. I guess if I think rosy thoughts with all my might, I'll never get hit by a drunk driver, or catch another cold, or get bird poop in my hair while picnicking under a tree? (no slight to hawks intended... after all, poop happens).

"There is nothing to fear but fear itself." Dare I assail such profundity? Yeah, I guess so. There is plenty to fear in this world, but that doesn't mean we allow fear to RULE us. The refusal to face something that makes us feel that nasty old fear feeling is nothing more than DENIAL. It takes courage to face fear, assess it, accept it, and respond accordingly. Otherwise, you are a sheeple that reacts.

Cody doesn't need someone to tell him, ..."It's okay, we won't think of any nasty nuclear war thoughts, and that will make it not happen." Cody needs resources for affordable potassium iodate, quick and do-able shelters, possibly some relocation ideas, articles for his DGI wife, and lots of support. Whether it is Y2K or war or solar flares or asteroids, we do what we can to prepare and leave the rest to our Creator.

You insist on offering fresh insults to Ashton and Leska with inexplicable and spiteful rudeness. Where does Diane buy her Troll-away spray.....

PS... Nyquist is a true patriot.

-- Mumsie (shezdremn@aol.com), November 15, 1999.


It is a common trait for those (like Hawk) who lack knowledge, the ability to think critically and reason analytically, and good breeding to resort to virulent and irrational spewings of venomous bile.

Good call, Mumsie, Hawk is starting to sound more like a trolling Polly all the time. He belongs over at Debunky.

-- (brett@miklos.org), November 15, 1999.


Just to clear up a couple things :-) We've never been intoxicated, never drink a drop, pop a pill, snort, smoke, inhale: nada.
Vegetarians too ;^) Not afraid of our own death. If there's anybody at peace with death, it's us. After all, it is our vocation; we're hospice caregivers. You might want to consult with all the hundreds of families who have claimed that their transition through the passings of their loved ones in our care was exceptionally beautiful, calm, soothing, spiritual, Angel-graced, and heart-opening.

This off-the-wall thing about Clinton, wanting him to tell us what to do, heeheeheeheheheheh, ya got the wrong posters on that one ;^D
We have refrained on that score and limited ourselves mostly to reporting his "technologically challenged" comments, his "pick-up with skoal in desert" attitude, etc.

About the Russians. When we got on this Forum, we had a real nice glasnost happy-glow feeling about Russia, ready to give 'em a real welcoming bear hug. At first, reading all the amazing reports Nik & E Coli et al were kind enough to post, we didn't believe a word of it, but did research, investigated on our own. Talked to various ppl who had traveled there recently. Changed our views. Now, we know it is possible for one of the factions there to use any method of making a point and having the last say. Very barbaric stuff going on over there. Sad. And they do have lotsa nukes still.

Now, about thoughts creating reality. Could write tomes about this, but just want to make a couple points. Yes, in general, that is true, BUT the masses also create a strong thought/energy-field. Fortunately one person's delusions don't sway the mental stability of the masses. There is an equal danger in masses ignoring facts and refusing to behave responsibly. Everybody wishing away nukes will not make them vanish. Everybody ostriching Y2K will not change the code. If everybody were sensibly prepared for emergencies in general, and had one year of provisions stored (very good idea, Mormons), and behaved with love, generosity and helpfulness to their brethren, Y2K would not pose such dire risks.

As yogis who study thought/energy metaphysical truths, we have been astonished at people using the "You bad bad person have harbored bad thoughts and therefore caused / deserved bad things happening" meme which has circulated amongst angry and spiteful and uncompassionate groups. Started in the early 80's. All we'll say in this limited time & space is that the way most favored by the Saints & Sages is loving thoughts PLUS practical sensible down-to-earth ACTIONS. Using God-given intelligence to research, acknowledge realities, deal with them, prepare, help others, and continue with life, with a joyous attitude.

The Expect To Be Nuked conclusion came after reading many reports of blatant blaring glaring Russian WARNINGS which were callously and arrogantly totally disregarded, relentless bombings and atrocities commencing, setting off a determined Russian revenge planning frenzy. Sorry but those are the facts cross-referenced 1000s of different points.

There are many other threads quoting the Russian officials saying basically the same thing, notched up several degrees of terror.

We kept the above article because it specifically dealt with a credible threat involving Nukes 'n Y2K directly.

Nuff said :-)

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), November 15, 1999.


"POTASSIUM IODATE
"150 mg Tablets

"Potassium Iodate is a superior form of KI (buffered Iodine) and carried only by Medical Corps. Each factory sealed bottle contains 100 fresh tablets of Potassium Iodate 150mg.

"The shelf life of Potassium Iodate is exceptional and should last a generation. Because of the extra molecule of oxygen in Iodate, Medical Corps can guarantee Iodate's stability without adding stabilizers.

"Medical Corps recommends that each family member should have at least one bottle in their emergency kit. KI is the only known chemical available on the market which will shield (or block) the Thyroid and prevent it from absorbinb radioactive Iodine.

"Unlike other blockers, Medical Corps' stock is NOT government surplus 130 mg tablets. It is also chewable and especially recommended for children because our youngsters are extremely susceptible to thyroid cancer after exposure to radioactive contamination.

"Remember, be it a spill, accident, war or terrorism, Potassium Iodate is the only chemical which will protect you and your children. For those who are interested, it can be used for your pets also.

"1 Bottle = 100 150mg pills.
"Use during a Nuclear Emergency ONLY
* For the first 14 days take 1 tablet twice a day. This is a total of 2 tablets per day.
* For the next 76 days take 1 tablet per day.

"Potassium Iodate 150mg is a superior form of "KI" because of its extended shelf life and lack of bitter taste. The extra molecule of oxygen in Potassium Iodate 150mg (actually K103), can guarantee the Iodate's continued freshness without adding stabilizers. Keep the bottle sealed, dry, and out of sunlight. It should remain stable for a generation.

"Why should it be used?
"During a Nuclear Disaster, such as War, Terrorism, a MeltDown or Spill, great amounts of Radioactive Iodine-131 are often released. Even though I-131 is radioactive, it is still Iodine ... and Iodine is what the Thyroid requires to operate correctly. The Thyroid does not know the difference between "good" iodine and "bad" iodine and will readily absorb Radioactive 131 if allowed to. What must be done in case of a nuclear accident is to SATURATE the Thyroid with the good Iodine so that the bad iodine cannot do irreparable damage. The blocking must be done on a daily basis at least 12 hours BEFORE the nuclear emergency starts and it must be continued for at least 80 days. [???]

"Medical Corp"

"Medical Corps is an organization of retired United States Armed Forces personnel united to bring to the citizenry of the nation education and training in survival and emergency medical techniques.

"Ralph Charles "Chuck" Fenwick is the founder and chief administrator of Medical Corp.

Address label on bottle:
"Medical Corps
45161 State Route 821
Caldwell, OH 43724

"New Important Information
[ the guy said for the last year, and the military is switching over to Postassium Iodate. He told us some info that we KNOW is not true, so we're being cautious ]

"New Thyroid Blocking Power
Did anyone besides Medical Corps understand what it means to have 100 suitcase Atomic Bombs unaccounted for by the former Soviet Union? Or maybe it is just a coincidence, but the US Government has instituted an NBC crash training program for emergency medical personnel in 120 cities nation wide! Medical Corps is involved with just that sort of training and has been for two years. One of the emergency procedures being taught is the use of the Thyroid Blocker called KI. This is the only chemical which will protect a human from absorbinb Radioactive Iodine 131. Iodine 131 is deadly and is especially toxic to children.

"Medical Corps now carries a superior form of KI. In the past we have marketed Potassium Iodide 150mg. Now we can offer a new product called Potassium Iodate 150mg.

"Medical Corps carries this superior form of KI. Potassium Iodate has an extra molecule of Oxygen which makes it more shelf stable than Iodide or Iodine. It is not as bitter as Potassium Iodide and can be chewed. Unlike the government surplus 130mg Iodide, Medical Corps chose the 150mg strength, as this will extend the thyroid blocking.

The store is called "American Family Network," and their website is at
http://www.americanfamilynetwork.com

Helps if your browser can see/use frames.

Medical Corp:
http://www.medicalcorp.org

Can get KI at Emergency Essentials.
Get your supply now! Don't wait.

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), November 15, 1999.


Shelter In Place: Make Your Kits

Shelter In Place

aka SIP

[ Courtesy of ECHO Caer Group, Emergency Communications for Hazardous Operations, taught through the Portland, Oregon Fire Dept Training Center ]

[ For Educational Purposes ]

"There may be a time when an emergency takes place in your community due to an airborne toxic chemical release. The outside air quality may be affected to the point that it is not safe to be outside or evacuate. In a case like this it is usually safer to shelter-in-place until wind disperses and moves the toxic chemical away.

NOTIFICATION

Many, but not all, facilities (chemical/industrial plants) and emergency vehicles have alarm, siren, horn, or similar notification devices or systems. A three to five minute continuous signal means:

"Turn on TV or radio. Listen for essential emergency information."

These various signal devices may use different tones. The key is that they will be continuously activated for three to five minutes. If you hear this signal go inside immediately and turn on your radio or TV.

For Airborne toxic chemical releases the safest immediate action is to shelter-inplace while listening for further instructions.


SHELTER-IN-PLACE

1. Move inside immediately and turn on radio or TV for emergency information.
Proceed right away to:

2. Close all windows and doors.

3. Turn off ventilation systems. Remember heating, cooling, air pumps, bathroom fans, kitchen fans, oven/stove ventilation fans, dryer exhaust, chemney/fireplace vents, etc.

4. In buildings, go into and seal a room if possible.

5. Continue to listen to radio or TV for further instructions.


INSTRUCTIONS

Go inside the nearest structure such as a home, school, store, public building. Bring pets inside if practical. If indoors already, stay there. Turn on radio or TV for emergency information. If you are in a vehicle, close all windows, manual vents and ventilation systems.

In a structure:
Shut all windows, doors, chimney or fire place vents. This includes everything that can quickly and easily be closed to prevent the chemical from entering.

Turn off forced air heating or cooling systems. Turn of stove and bathroom exhaust fans.

Go into a room, preferably with no, or few, windows or outside air vents. If possible seal doors, windows, vents, etc. with plastic and tape or wet rags.

Continue to listen to the radio or TV on a local emergency alert system station until the emergency is over or until you are given instruction to evacuate. (Use a battery powered radio if the power is off.)


SHELTER IN PLACE PRE-PLANNING

It is important that you have a plan for your home or business for sheltering-in-place. Some key steps in this plan are:

* Knowing what doors and windows are likely to be open and assigning some one to check and close and LOCK them. Locking seals better.

* Knowing where the manual vents are and how to close them.

* Knowing where forced air heating or cooling controls/power exhaust vents are and how to turn them off.

* Knowing what room you will go to and how to seal it. Have a kit pre-prepared for this consisting of things such as plastic sheeting, strong tape, duct tape, rags, towels, water, snacks, etc.
Pre-cut the plastic to completely seal all windows and doors and any vents in your designated shelter room. With easy-to-see large labels, clearly mark on the plastic which opening/window/door/vent it fits.

* Have a radio (preferably two). Have one electric and one battery operated radio in the room you've identified. Know the emergency alert system station(s) for your area and have the station numbers written on a piece of tape attached to the radio.


SAFETY PRECAUTIONS

Most chemical release incidents are short-term in nature. But for any potential emergency situation, always keep an adequate supply of contained food and water sources, flashlights, first aid kit, batteries, a portable radio, essential medicines and other essentials. Practice safety drills to be prepared and know the emergency plans for your workplace and schools.

WHAT TO DO IN A CHEMICAL EMERGENCY (SHELTER-IN-PLACE)

When a release or spill is identified, some chemical plants dispatch trained emergency responders to quickly assess the situation and plan an approrpiate response. If offsite impacts are possible, local response agencies (Emergency Management Agency, Fire Department, etc) are contacted and consulted with. The local response agencies will then decide what actions, if any, are necessary to protect the surrounding community.

[ Note: these instructions were not written with Y2K in mind, when communications may be overwhelmed or out and emergency responders completely overwhelmed. ]

Sheltering inside a building is considered to be a proven method of protecting yourself and your family in the event of an accidental release.

IF ASKED TO SHELTER IN PLACE

* Close all doors to the outside and close and lock all windows (windows sometimes seal better when locked);

* Turn off ventilation systems;

* Monitor the local Emergency Alert System (EAS) radio station for updates and remain in shelter until authorities indicate it is safe to come out.

Select a room in the building where occupants can be the most comfortable and which is easy to seal off. This room should, if possible, provide access to water, toilet facilities, and adequate room for people to sit or lie down. The room should have a battery-powered radio, snack foods, and bottled water.

Many people opt for the master bedroom area with bathroom.

If the gas or vapor is soluble or even partially soluble in water -- hold a wet cloth or handkerchief over your nose and mouth if the gases start to bother you. For a higher degree of protection, go into the bathroom, close the door, and turn on the shower in a strong spray to "wash" the air. Seal any openings to the outside of the bathroom as best as you can. Don't worry about running out of air to breathe. That is highly unlikely in normal homes and buildings.

Be sure to make Shelter-In-Place kits, with pre-cut, marked heavy plastic and strong tape to seal your closed doors, windows, vents, exhaust systems -- anywhere anything from outside could get in. Keep your kit accessible in the designated room. Make sure all members of the family know what the kit is for, how to use it, and why. Drill and practice Sheltering-In-Place.

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), November 15, 1999.


Hawk: I'd recommend you look at your foul mouth hatred a little more civilly; you are mouthing extreme positions using terrible language without lookig at the valid reasons behind them. Furhter, you're not addressing the problem: the threat is real.

Red China (and Russia) have 12 months left to use the Clintons' Presidency to their advantage - though they will try to use thenews media to their advantage to extend it further......

The current weakness in the US defenses caused by the Clintons international schemes, and the willingness of the Clintons to do as the Red Chinese wish is a narrow opprotunity that might be exploited in a nuclear war - though, IN MY OPINION - a direct attack here is not likely.

More likely, is the THREAT of a atttack to "lock down" US responses as the two attack elsewhere: as Russia is attacking now in Chetznya (-1 sp)....their crimes are much more significant than ever alledged by the Clintons - and deliberately exaggerated! in Albania! but we do nothing, say nothing, and ignore everything done by the Russians....because teh Russians have nuclear weapons and have the politcal will to use them.

The Chinese nuclear threat is more likely to be used to threaten US cities to keep US from reponding to an upcoming invasion of Tawain.

The Chinese have been emotionally and physically preparing their people for a war over Tawain for months, and have begun physical preparations now as well: moving troops, wepons, supplies, and shipping to the ports to prepare for an attack. Rather than attack us directly, that would be later, most likely - twelve to 18 years - if they actually do attack, it makes more sense to merely threaten.

And Clinton has deliberately castrated our nuclear response - even IF weapons explode on US soil, he has NOT said he would respond: so why blow up perfectly good US cities if you don't have to? It wastes time money and effort: just continue to use the presidential power they have already bought.

-- Robert A. Cook, PE (Marietta, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), November 15, 1999.


I'm not sure why anyone should believe, that given the atrocities the human race has managed to conjure up to this date, that we would not go a step further and engage in nuclear war?

Yes Hawk- it might be fear that generates and propels this; fear on our part, on their part, whomever's part. We can just sit here and ignore it, and repeat "I am not afraid". "We have nothing to fear but fear itself", and so on. but we have no control over what "they" are thinking or doing over there-and the distrust is huge, and the level of understanding low, and the posturing large, and the need for control even larger, and yes- I do believe we are quite capable of launching into a nuclear war in our lifetime.

So- if you ignore it- and the threats from meteors, global warming, severe weather, etc as well- does that change things? Does it make it go away? Isn't that just akin to those that belive that y2k can't happen because "they" won't let it, we are too good and noble a people to have anything bad happen to us, and all the rest of that mindset?

No- fearmongering isn't appropriate. I would never tell an 8 year old that the Russians are going to nuke us any day now or whatever. But if adults, and this is an adult oriented forum BTW, can't discuss these issues here, where should they be discussed? In Good Houskeeping? On the Martha Stewart show? During half-time on Monday nite football?

-- farmer (hillsidefarm@drbs.com), November 15, 1999.


god bless you cody. how old are you???? i say get to church too. you need a source of strength and comfort in this nutso world. get to know god. he is dependable and will be a real friend. i have alot of sympathy on any young person (20s and below) having to grow up in this crazy stressful world with all the potential risks. we have had the risk of nuclear war since the 50s. russia always is a threat. probably a higher risk now but that is not to say you won't live to a ripe old age (tell your brother too) -- who knows? just remember there have been tough times before in this country before and people survived them.

hey, if you are a young person, don't spend too much time in these gloom and doom sites. do a reasonable level of preparation but then have fun and enjoy life in the flesh -- more than surfing the net. the net can really depress you. you need a real life--so does that little brother of yours.

-- tt (cuddluppy@yahoo.com), November 15, 1999.


Maybe Y2K-thinking folks let their concerns brush along the Nuclear issue because Cohen, Hamre, CIA, FBI, DOD, FEMA, .alphabets, .gov, .mil, .system, et al, have been pounding their pulpits non-stop equating Y2K with NBC Terrorism. Their meme must be osmosissing ...

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), November 15, 1999.

Hawk, It looks like the butt-whupping you took on the last Russian thread wasn't enough. Now you've gone and really got yourself in deep doo doo. The only way back to some vestige of respectability on this forum anyway it seems to me is to apologize to Gayla, Ashton and Leska, forum regulars and others on this thread you have dissed.

There are plenty of posters on this forum who respectfully agree to disagree on the Russian threat. Evidences seem to mount that a Russian attack may happen soon. And for a composite of these evidences see this article just posted today. Link

My problem with you has always been your lack of respect. You called Gayla a female dog on one thread for no good reason, and then refused to apologize and copped out by telling everyone you never claimed to be a gentleman.

Now would be a good time to start. All you have to do is say "I'm sorry guys, I lost my cool." This is not about being a gentleman now, it's about being a man.

Watch what happens when you say I'm sorry.

I'm posting this because believe it or not Hawk, I'm trying to care. As Americans we're all in this together my friend. We need everyone's varied opinions and insights, yours included. Good luck and may I add God bless.

Pastor Bob P.S. Cody, check out the link above.

-- BB (peace2u@bellatlantic.net), November 15, 1999.


Hawk, It looks like the butt-whupping you took on the last Russian thread wasn't enough. Now you've gone and really got yourself in deep doo doo. The only way back to some vestige of respectability on this forum anyway it seems to me is to apologize to Gayla, Ashton and Leska, forum regulars and others on this thread you have dissed.

Agreed. Just because Hawk is in denial and can't handle the obvious facts doesn't give him the right to treat forum regulars that way. He needs to wake up and smell the coffee or he'll end up like the pollys.

-- (brett@miklos.org), November 15, 1999.


Hawk,

Funny, I was thinking about your posts (and some others') this morning, before I saw this thread. It's about time for me to do the bugout thing to parts unknown, so this is probably the last time I'll post my addy.

I'd humbly like to take this opportunity to say what I really think (grin), so I'll begin w/ a confession, so you'll know I'm in earnest. You no doubt recall the famous (and now deleted) 'post-crash prostitution' thread, in which an irate contributor flamed your posts on the subject w/ tags like 'worried@dickstoo.small', etc. Welp, that person was me (at the time I was still posting as PH), and I'm sorry.

When I think about it now, having read many of your valuable posts as both @ and Hawk, I realize you were just having fun, and trying to invite this weird little on-line community into kind of a fantasy experiment. I don't, in retrospect, think you meant any harm, and I'm sorry the thread got zapped. It was a gem.

So there's my True Confession. Now here's my Big Assertion: seems to me that the others posting above may be right--nukes scare the beejeezus out of you (just like the rest of us, actually), to the point that it's looking like you've got a little denial happening.

I understood the message you were trying to pass on to Cody's little brother, and bless you for trying. But y'know, I don't think that's the way to go.

I'm backing you in another fistfight, bucky. Wow, but foxholes make for interesting companions.

-- silver ion (ag3@interlog.com), November 15, 1999.


A & L, you said:

"Now, about thoughts creating reality. Could write tomes about this, but just want to make a couple points. Yes, in general, that is true, BUT the masses also create a strong thought/energy-field."

Agreed, but since you know this to be true, why do you act to strengthen the fear-based energy field among the masses?

"Fortunately one person's delusions don't sway the mental stability of the masses."

Yes, and no. One person's thought energy is usually not enough (there are exceptions, ie; Jesus, Kreskin...) to change the reality experienced by the masses. However, it is the cumulative effect of all the combined energy of the masses which shapes reality. So each individual is still an important part of the whole, whether they realize it or not.

"There is an equal danger in masses ignoring facts and refusing to behave responsibly."

Exactly. That is what would trigger the use of nukes if it were to happen. Giving in to fear is not behaving responsibly, and when the combined energy of this irresponsibility becomes the dominant force, we will get exactly what we expect to get, something to fear.

"Everybody wishing away nukes will not make them vanish."

Disagree, but I think that is because of a different understanding of the word "wishing." We can't just twiddle our thumbs and concentrate on making it go away. But when we wish something, we are using thought, and thought creates actions, and actions create reality. See how that works? If everyone were to always choose their highest thoughts, not allowing themselves to give in to fear, then ultimately our actions would serve our thoughts, and our present fear-based reality will vanish.

Of course, since it is all too obvious that there are still many mental midgets among us (ahem... uh, Mumsie, you there? :-), it may never be possible for all of us to choose our highest thoughts all of the time, but the important thing is to act on our highest thoughts at every opportunity that we are aware that this choice is ours. We shouldn't just say..."well, I don't think everyone else is going to think about peace, so why should I bother." We need to start now, and the more people who live their lives this way, the closer we will be to Heaven on Earth.

Maybe at that particular moment last night you were not aware that this option was right in front of you, but I found it particularly distressing in this case because Cody had just mentioned how his little brother was frightened by this talk about nuclear launches. He feared for the life of his infant child because of all of the fear-based delusions expressed on this forum. Yet several posters chose to escalate this negative energy, based not on any concrete evidence that the nukes would actually be launched, but rather on the fearful thoughts of others expressed in various reports and books.

The human race has got to start growing up, and we cannot wait for other people to change their mind, it starts with each and every one of us. If the individual parts do not change, the whole will not change. I will leave you now with a quote from one of my most cherished books "Conversations with God" (sorry guys, I don't enjoy books about world wars)....

At the critical juncture in all human relationships, there is only one question:

What would love do now?

No other question is relevant, no other question is meaningful, no other question has any importance to your soul.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), November 15, 1999.


WELL Well Well Hawk, a, or whatever your calling yourself this week. I just got in this evening and found your venomous remarks directed toward myself. You are most assuredly a teenage punk. Coursing behind annonimity on a public forum= TROLL. Please leave this forum to more thoughtful posters, TROLL.

-- Jeff (123@4.com), November 15, 1999.

Hawk,

I very seldom find myself agreeing with anything you say, but you sure called it right here. Perhaps you could have been a bit more diplomatic in the way you said things, but basicly you're right on in your call.

As a Polly from Debunker, I know what I say carries very little weight with those on this board. But in this instance I truly Don't Get It. Aren't the Doomers over here always jumping up and down screaming The Pollies don't understand! It's all Interconnected. Yes, maybe we will get most of our systems fixed but the bugs in the rest of the world will bring us all down! It will collapse the banking system! Where DOOOOOMED!!!!

Well, excuse me, but I'm just scratching my head on this one. Aren't the Chinese dependant on us for trade? Don't they get pissed whenever anyone in Congress talks about eliminating their Most Favored Trading Status? Do you think it will help their economy by nuking us?

Supposedly the y2k bug can bring the U.S. down because of the interconnectedness of the foreign marketplace. Even if we assume that MAD is dead (a faulty assumption despite what anyone here says), doesn't anyone think that launching a nuclear attack on the U.S. would have an even greater effect on the Chinese and Russian economies than the y2k bug will have on ours (or anyone else's for that matter? Or does the interconnectedness argument only apply to y2k and not nuclear war? Do falling dominoes only affect the U.S. and its Western allies?

Hawk, this is fear mongering at its worst. After reading Ashton and Leska's posts you know how us Pllies feel after reading Doomer posts of the conspiracy du jur--whether it be a conspiracy of the Bankers to destroy the people or of deadly contrails or Klinton using y2k as an excuse to institute martial law so he can have a third term, to reports of U.N black helicopters preparing an invasion of the U.S. (Hell, the U.N. can't even get the U.S. to pay its dues. The thought of them taking over this country is so preposterous that I break out laughing just thinking about it.) Painting the Russians as 10 foot giants and portraying them as both Satanic and wreckless enough to launch a nuclear attack is nothing new. It has been going on for years. Just because WorldNetDaily reports something doesn't necessarily make it so. (I never did consider WorldNetDaily the most objective source.)

Now, I'm sure I haven't convinced anyone here of the preposterousnous of some of these ideas. But at least, Hawk, you now know what it feels like to be a Polly looking in on the Doomers.

Oh, one more thing. Hawk, you said:

I get pissed because people just don't get it. Our thoughts literally create our reality. Ashton and Leska might think it is ok if they want to choose fearful thoughts to create a fearful reality for themselves, and that is their choice. But when you spread this kind of fear, everyone begins to have fearful thoughts, and it is the mass consciousness that creates this reality we live in.

The scenario for a possible nuclear war only exists because of fear. It is the combination of all the fearful thoughts within the human race about our so-called "enemies" wanting to destroy us that actually creates this condition of fear in which we now find ourselves. We get exactly what we think. Fear

Good point. I might also comment that this applies even better in regard to bank runs. Just substitute the words "bank run" for "nuclear war" and the statement will also be true. The banking system isn't going to collapse unless people panic. Some people want to create that panic because they want to see it collapse.

-- Robin S. Messing (rsm7@cornell.edu), November 15, 1999.


Yes, Robin, I think we can agree to disagree on our different perspectives on Y2K, but with respect to this attacking the spirit of fellow human beings with fear, I am comforted to know that you support my feelings. This thread has sadly caused me to lose faith in humanity. It was a plea for help by Cody to discover if there was still some glimmer of hope that mankind might not destroy themselves, but it appears that the majority chose to side with fear rather than love. I'd like to believe that this was out of character for Ashton & Leska, since I know that they are nature-loving pacifists, but they are not the only ones who sought to shatter Cody's spirit, and many others chimed in their support. Sadly, this appears to be just another example of the sort of gang mentality that now occurs in our society when people do not trust what their own soul tells them.

Regarding Y2K, let me tell you, if you don't already know, that I am not afraid of any of the upcoming changes that Y2K may bring about, and I do not encourage others to fear it. Notice I use the word "changes," because to me that's all that will happen, and I am a strong advocate of change. Whether or not these changes will be considered "bad" or "good" is entirely dependent on the individual who experiences them, but I will always strive to make any changes positive ones from my point of view. You mentioned the banking system, and that may turn out to be the most significant example. Of course you are correct that fear could very likely cause the collapse of this system, and those fears could be distorted to higher levels than practical, but from what I understand, they are not totally unfounded fears. The banking system is a tremendous scam, and I admit I would like to see it eliminated to allow for the establishment of a more stable and equitable system. Even just a direct barter of products and services would be better in my opinion. I try not to imply that anyone should fear what Y2K could do to the banking system, but rather that it might be in our best interests not to trust it, and that this is as good an opportunity as any to bring about some changes.

But I view the nuclear war scenario as being a lot different than Y2K. With Y2K, humans make their best effort to remedy the problem, and then we wait to see how the machines are going to react. It's pretty much anyone's guess, but even now we see changes in planning and such being made as a direct result of Y2K, so no one can deny that at least to a certain extent we are at the mercy of the machines. Also, the worst that can happen does not even come close to the worst in a nuclear scenario. I anticipate a lot of frustration, confusion, discomfort, economic losses, some casualties, but not the end of the world, and certainly nothing to fear.

With regard to the using of nuclear weapons, it is the combination of the psychology and attitudes of the masses that will determine the outcome, not the weapons. This is why I believe it is suicidal to continue this "psychology of fear" that has brought us to the brink of nuclear armageddon. But even putting aside the psychological aspects, and just looking at the existing circumstances, it is unrealistic IMO to "expect to be nuked." Given, Russia does not like our idea of developing a missile defense because it implies that we may intend to attack them, so they are building up their defensive capabilities, but this is no reason to assume they plan to attack. See, here we go right back to the fear issue again, because it is undeniably the reason for this dillema. We fear we will be attacked, so we build defense, then Russia fears they will be attacked, so they build up their weapons, and then we become even more afraid that they will attack, and it becomes a vicious circle.

As you point out Robin, even though many like to view Russia as the enemy, there is a great deal of connectedness and interdependency, in fact throughout the entire planet. There are far too many reasons why they would have to be completely insane to attempt such an attack. I guess what I don't understand is, on an issue that is so much more serious than Y2K, how come so many on this forum just freely speculate and sensationalize about the annihilation of mankind. I mean broken computers is one thing, but when people are telling families and little children that we are going to be vaporized in a nuclear attack, they should at least give it some rational consideration before they start shooting off with this stuff. What about using the same psychology that we use for Y2K... "Prepare for the worst, but HOPE for the best."? Why don't we try to think about it this way... "Expect NOT to be nuked," and who knows, maybe the human race will get their act together before we surrender so easily to fear and self-destruction.



-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), November 16, 1999.


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