We need the top programmers in oil,gas,banking,telecomunications,electric areospace,shipping,defense and food industries to either prove to us why we should have confidence in the Govt/Media spin on y2k or expose it for the fraud that it is and demand leaders to stop the lie and commit to honesty about this issue on T.V. Where do we really stand. To say no one knows is horsesh*t.

Our families lives and the survival of our country is at stake. There is still time to mobilize our country's resources to lessen the impact if it is going to be real bad. We need to know now if moblization of our nation is going to be needed to survive y2k. My best technical guess is that we will. But I am not in a position to guage readiness in the big picture scheme of things. However there are some who really are in the know. We need them to come out public so our dgi familiy members can be presuaded to stop procrastinating and get ready. The public has the right to know what the experts think about where we are now in regards to y2k and it's potential for disruption. Is it fix or do we have a Problem Houston. This needs to be done in a national Town hall setting, televised to the entire U.S. If this is not allowed to take place than we know that it is worse than we thought. It will mean that the consitional rights and freedom of the press is gone. This public hearing needs to occur so as to determine weather we can trust these insitutions to resposible run this country any more. If they state for the record that y2k is no problem and then post y2k it is not, then the citizens/voters of this country will have a decision to make based on what was presented to them as fact. That simple. I love this country, it's time for them to come clean. There is still time to do the right thing.

-- y2k aware mike (y2k aware mike @ conservation . com), November 08, 1999

Answers

Mike, remember that many of the worlds top programmers are "pollys".

I dont think a town hall would work, it would just end up being a live version of Tb2000 and we all know how spooky that would be.

-- hamster (hamster@mycage.com), November 08, 1999.

y2k aware mike you are right but it does not look like that has a chance of flying. The alert sense something is amiss and prepare. The rest ... time will tell

-- sad (minutes@flying.by), November 08, 1999.

I wish they would. I hate all this lying and citizens muttering among themselves, wishing they knew the truth...

-- Mara (MaraWayne@aol.com), November 08, 1999.

What would they say?

"Your civilization is about to experience technical difficulties. At best you will be poor, at worst you will be radioactive. Good luck and have a nice day."

-- River Soma (riversoma@aol.com), November 08, 1999.

Right on Mike, for the life of me I just don't understand how these people can look themselves in the mirror on a daily basis. They must understand that computers have made our existence very fragile and with JIT systems for almost every product sold in this country the domino effect from defaults along the way will be enormous!

One suggestion to any programmer to whom Mike has made his request ......drive by any YMCA and watch those kids on the soccer fields, go to a Friday night football game and see what "community" is all about, watch young Cub Scouts doing community service.....look at all of that and contemplate what will happen to those beautiful kids if those of us who can make a difference do nothing. (Hint: Just check the faces of those people in Bosnia, Kosovo, etc. to see where we may be headed.

-- saveamerica (jb30@hotmail.net), November 08, 1999.

river soma--

ROTFLMAO

-- karla (karlacalif@aol.com), November 08, 1999.

y2k aware mike,

I join you in your sentiments. I don't believe that the media bosses would really want to do this though. And our President and congressional leaders don't appear to be to anxious either.

The other thought that I have is that EXPERTS tend to debate their various views, creating more heat than light. The Bible says that men love darkness and hate the light. I believe that.

Good luck to you and yours.

wally wallman

-- wally wallman (wally_yllaw@hotmail.com), November 08, 1999.

Unfortunately, no, most of the "top" programmers (an oxymoron considering many of them are responsible for this mess along with managment) are not pollys. They are gentlemen and ladies trapped in non-disclosure contracts which would destroy their lives if they ever went public. Only the independents can do that, and then they risk not ever getting a contract again. You will see Da Klintoonmeister apologizing to the Republican party on national tv before you will ever see these top level programmers. And sadly, those are the ones, or a good portion of them, who are already setting up their mountain retreats for the new year....

Got blinders?
John

-- John Galt (jgaltfla@hotmail.com), November 08, 1999.

I'd be arrogant enough to call myself one of those having written systems that sold more than tens of thousands of units a month, etc..

A. I'm not responsible for Y2K. I started programming 14 years ago, long after many of the bugs were committed.

B. I've never coded using 2 digit dates.. For that matter, with systems programming I don't even use dates.

C. Several of 'us' have come forward, but there are lots of 'polly' programmers that argue the other case..

D. I'll fix anything that comes across my desk, but my family is my first obligation. If I'm worried about them, then it's 'sick leave' time.

Bryce

-- Bryce (bryce@nospam.com), November 08, 1999.

I've tried for 3 years to tell people. I've reasoned, I researched failures occuring, I explained, I exposed myself to them. I've tried and tried again to talk to the parents of those children playing soccer at the schoolyard but none of them wanted to hear it. And the kids didn't either. To accept what I was saying meant that they'd have to scrimp and sacrifice their lifestyle to prepare for survival. And no one wants to do that. I've more than on eperson say they'd just come over to my place if it "got that bad". And I've told them no. I have too many neighbors already to help and travel would likely be impossible or dangerous.

So, you want me to go public? I've already tried that on a small scale repeatedly and am a fool for doing so. better to have kept quiet and avoided envious socialists/Americans reporting my "hoard" to the "authorities" when TSHTF. I've read enough accounts from WWII and other times of crisis to learn something about human nature.

I've been a fool to try warning others. And you want me to what? Be a raving fool?

I cache data in my software, and I've done it with my supplies. Let the DWGI die, their children too. I can't save the world or even my town. I'll help the few I can and regretfully let the others go. Times are going to be ugly and people will reap what they've sown.

From now on I'm going to try to stay out of the way when they panic.

I hope all naieve, idealistic people in denial of human nature suffer a lot from their views. I'm pretty frustrated with them right now.

-- long Time programmer (no@disclosure.com), November 08, 1999.

The truth is being told, happy smiley faces in banking, electric and gas utilities, food chain, oil, etc. They have disclosed to the public that there will be no problems except of course placing the blame on their vendors if there is a disruption in service. The Red Cross and FEMA have advised the public to prepare for a 3 day storm, after all, regardless of Y2K you should do it anyway. I am happy that you love this country, but you mean you want the government to come clean? They have, Mr. Koskinen has come clean with you as well as Senator Bennett. The stock market is doing great, unemployment is at an all time low, people are spending money, and there is no problem in Houston. So, why are us doomers reacting the way that we do? So what if Hershey's can't get the chocolate out their doors, the stuff is bad for you anyway. And so what if Fruit of the Loom can't manufacture underwear because of their computer problems, just don't wear any at all. And so what if oil companies want to FOF their embedded chips? Cars and factories pollute the air, it will be good for us to go back to riding bicycles and using mules to plow the fields. And banking, we can do without banking, bartering is a much better way to do business, it get's rid of the middle man and government all in one swoop. However which way you choose to look at it, if you believe you are being lied to then take the necessary precautions to protect yourself. It's all about money, to the government and big corporations, money is far more important to them than you are.

-- Rasty (Rasty@bulldoggg.xcom), November 08, 1999.

Response to persons who feel that today's "top programmers" are to blame. I'm a fairly competent programmer and considered to be a guru in my field. I've been working on Y2K for over 2 years a a mid-sized company. None of the stuff that required remediation was written by anybody currently employed at this company. The bottom line here is that the problem code that we're trying to fix was written by programmers ( under the direction of bean-counting #$%! managers) that have long since retired. As for coming out and laying it on the table as to the real state of Y2K readiness, I have this question for you corporate animals out there: "Are you willing to disclose your company's dirty laundry to the public and risk your ability to provide for your family in uncertain time just to try to help strangers who may not even take your advice?". This question can apply to a variety of dirty laundy, not just Y2K. Talk amongst yourselves. I'm getting verklempt.

-- Heidi Abromowitz (Annie@nonmouse.com), November 08, 1999.

I've been in the business for a little over 20 yrs. Worked on a lot of systems with 2 digit dates. Done a lot of systems level work, so no dates involved. Spent several years in the embedded world and you use the date formats supported by the chips. I talked a lot about what's coming up until about 9 months ago, then only talked when asked. Went through a short spell where my only response when asked by the totally clueless about this Y2K thing was that it was going to be F***ing Biblical (that was probably the most effective comments I ever made that really got people's attention). Now it's too late. If you get through to any DGI, what does it really buy them, likely they will only stand in shorter lines. If GI's talk to me about it, I'll give them what I can, but the time for converts has past and it's to close to outwardly display what you feel and what you have done.

-- BH (bh_silentvoice@hotmail.com), November 08, 1999.

The truth has been and will always be out there unless national security is at stake. And controlling the information flow on Y2K wouldn't be for trivial and petty reasons. It was only a short time ago the C.I.A. came forward with tight lips but with the purpose of alerting the populace, "That cyber terrorism has been spotted, is emerging, do with that information what you will."

The truth is just not sprawled all about in neon lights and fliers raining down from planes.

Companies willing to be named with technical problems are all being named for anyone who wants to hear. There was a big article on the banks at the Fed Reserve window trying to obtain cash as Americans start a cycle of self-fulfilling prophecy, the military has come forth and said in polite terms that panicky investors are destroying the nations defense, everyone including John Koskinen has said small noncompliant businesses will toast, four nuclear power plants are being watched very carefully for compliance, sporadic outages are expected, all involved have mentioned a gas crunch coming and price spikes etc. There's no "hidden truth" in all this by the time all have put forth their two bits.

Never denied and fully stated by the Naval War College was that there could be nation to nation aggression taking advantage of Y2K vulnerabilities which could draw us in or even target the USA. The hint and the smell of war is always twined into the topic of Y2K like a sticky web.

In the meantime, I do agree with the government, some info is hype, and some people and groups have fallen off the deep end. I honestly and sincerely am not grasping cash or gold coins as a part of my own Y2K preps. There isn't a goofy safe drilled and bolted into my floor. I'm not arming myself and planning a fort "just in case my neighbors come crawling thru the windows." I've no intention of usurping local democracy or rewriting laws and society to suit Y2K paranoia. I've never in my life of 38 years seen this nation so low one couldn't help another and I don't expect that to change. A very low standard of living, a possibly even enraging standard of living, isn't so low one can't live with some degree of civility and sanity. I will however rise up against anyone or any group taking matters into his/her/their own hands as unelected officials. This is America, Mayors are elected, police exist, and laws will remain intact. The "Answer Men" are not welcome.

If the power goes out with water and food a crises, I am going to handle the situation by knocking on a couple of particular doors in my area and ask, "Are you okay?" And I am going to go back the next day and ask and the day after that. Doors sure are going to get knocks from "the neighbor." They're old people. One up from me and one next door. I am morally and ethically obligated to knock on these doors.

Truth is what Ross Perot had said in his initial campaign. You rise up and go fix the elderly ladies' yard gone to pots. Don't look to Uncle Sam to do this for you.

-- Paula (chowbabe@pacbell.net), November 08, 1999.

I LOVE CHOCO, and I don't wear underwear! NOW, are you all happy I bared my soul to the world? Huh Are you? ;)

0

-- FLAME AWAY (BLehman202@aol.com), November 08, 1999.

Yes, I'm happy too that your happy. What does chocolate and underwear have in common?

-- Rasty (Rasty@bulldoggg.xcon), November 08, 1999.

Anyone working in the television or radio broadcasting industry? I'm wondering if the FCC has some kind of policy in effect regarding Y2K broadcasts. Anytime someone tries to do something like this, except on the Internet, do they step in and tell them how far they can go with it, in the interest of preventing panic? Sure seems like it, especially with that PBS show a few weeks ago. CBS and 60 minutes have thus far been the only ones willing to be realistic and those were very brief.

Also, there is the question of advertising sponsors. Corporations are not going to pay for a program that spreads a doomy message. Who would be willing to fund a Townhall like this in order to get the truth out, and take responsibility if it causes panic?

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), November 08, 1999.

Great idea Mike--

We could open the show with that old favorite "Dooon't theeeeey knoooow, it's the eeeeeend of the world, it ended when we Y2KKK'd"

Bwahahahahahah!!!

-- MIchael (mikeymac@uswest.net), November 08, 1999.

I like you guys have born witness to this. I apply the 80/20 rule. 20 percent of the competent hard working programmers do most of the work. Spending 80-85% of their time fixing crap code. Not all of "today's" programmers are responsible for anything. But since there are so many of "today's" hotshots at, oh say, Microsoft, how could they have been so blind to this with Win98??? We can argue for days but the truth is that Pandora's Box is open. God help us all.

John

-- John Galt (jgaltfla@hotmail.com), November 08, 1999.

OK, I'm ready. What do I do? Where do I go? Who do I see?

Maybe I'll start on an INTERNET FORUM. Yea, that's the ticket...

From me, who wrote his first Fortran program almost 33 years ago, and who has been getting paid, rather well thank you, to push bits for almost 32.

Tick... Tock... <:00=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), November 09, 1999.

With all respect, that's a little naive. There's no secret cabal of All Knowing Programmers out there who know the full scale of the problem. Even those of us who've seen Y2K screwups firsthand have no idea whether the problems they've seen are the rule or the exception.

As for Top Programmers... har de har har. I have far greater technical skills than my managers, but have no idea what the big picture is. Conversely, they are better placed to know if we are hiding any nasty news, but unfortunately they probably wouldn't notice a Y2K bug if it took out full page newspaper ads saying "Dr Ms Jones, I am a Y2K bug in your software."

This illustrates the *real* problem with predicting Y2K effects. Those who do the work don't understand the consequences, and those who know the consequences don't understand the work. This is exactly why any claim about technical preparations is ludicrous: the only way to test a system for Y2K is to wait for 1/1/1900. Sorry, I meant 1/1/2000. ;)

-- Colin MacDonald (roborogerborg@yahoo.com), November 09, 1999.

Mike,

While at first glance at your note, I thought that you had formed an open and honest request. Then I read the note more slowly. It appears that you are wanting this town hall to reaffirm your beliefs.

If the programmers were to appear in this mystical town hall and did not confirm to your thoughts, what would your reaction be? Don't answer that question, as I already know the answer. I will note, however, that programmers are just like everyone else, each with differing opinions on Y2K. Some see potential bad problems, some see no problems at all. The experts in their own fields often have differing views on their perspective fields. Would this clear the air, or just muddy the waters.

Please do not let my answer seem as a personal attack, because it was not meant to be one, but rather the thoughts of someone that mostly sits along the sidelines here. I just wanted to point out what I read your message as saying, and to let you know that it was impossible.

To John - Often times, consultants do indeed sign the non-disclosure contracts. Depending upon the contract, it is part of the job. I have never had a problem with signing a non-disclosure, but if I did I would pass on the opportunity.

To Colin - agreed.

Just my couple grains of sand on the beach we call life.

-- (cannot-say@this.time), November 09, 1999.