Probably most of you here on this board have already heard about George Washington's vision at Valley Forge concerning the destiny of the United States, but for those who haven't, try this link. Pay particular attention to the "third peril."

George Washington's Vision

-- CD (CDOKeefe@aol.com), November 07, 1999

Answers

George Washington was a Deist.

Thomas Jefferson was a Deiost.

Deists don't believe in ghosts, spirits, angels, spooks, demons, satan, the bogy man, etc.

I know, I use to be a deist myself. Now, I'm a realist.

The "third peril" you reference is hearsay upon hearsay. Don't base any decision on it. At best, it's completely out of context IF Washington even said it at all. At worst, it's a complete fabrication, invented by a fundamentalist Christian to try and revise history in order to deceive the American people into believing George Washington was a Christian, which he was not, from all accounts of history I have read, including the writings of George Washington himself.

The "God" or "Divine Providence" referenced by Washington, Jefferson and most of the other founding fathers in their personal writings is not the "Christian God", it's the God of Nature...a much greater and higher "God" concept than the one described in the Bible.

Further, this is the same "God of Nature" referenced in our Declaration Of Independence as "Nature's God".

Also, the "In God We Trust" on our currency is this "God of Nature", NOT the oftentimes limited, destructive and egotistical "Bible God". The reason "In God We Trust" was allowed to remain on our currency by the Supreme Court was because of this very fact. Seperation of Church and State was not breeched because the "God" the United States sometimes references is NOT THE CHRISTIAN GOD, it's the FIRST CAUSE or ORIGIN of all that is, the universe, of which NO ONE has yet proven with any verifiable, objective evidence from where it came. The universe exists, this much is obvious. From who or what that took place resulting in it being here, we don't know but THAT is what our Founding Fathers called "God".

Seems Christians in their ZEAL to OWN and take credit for everything never quite get it, both literally and figuratively.

-- GoldReal (GoldReal@aol.com), November 08, 1999.

Hey, I'm not a rabid Christian. I just thought this was an interesting story. Besides, historians have done quite a bit to authenticate i

-- CD (CDOKeefe@aol.com), November 08, 1999.

Awesome vision!

The document relates that General Washington was visited by an angelic personage at Valley Forge in 1777. Washington's army was suffering severely. The Continental Congress was not sending supplies or money. Many troops did not even have shoes to wear of other proper clothing. Disease and sickness were rampant. Morale was at an all-time low. There was great agitation in the Colonies against continued effort to secure our freedom from England. Yet, General Washington was determined to see the struggle through.

Anthony Sherman is quoted as having said: ``You doubtless heard the story of Washington's going to the thicket to pray. Well, it is not only true, but he used often to pray in secret for aid and comfort from God, the interposition of whose Divine Providence brought us safely through the darkest days of tribulation.'' ``One day, I remember it well, when the chilly winds whistled through the leafless trees, though the sky was cloudless and the sun shown brightly, he remained in his quarters nearly all the afternoon alone. When he came out I noticed that his face was a shade paler than usual. There seemed to be something on his mind of more than ordinary importance. Returning just after dusk, he dispatched an orderly to the quarters of the officer I mention, who was presently in attendance. After a preliminary conversation of about a half hour, Washington, gazing upon his company with that strange look of dignity which he alone commanded, related the event that occurred that day.'' This is his account:

Valley Forge, Winter of 1777

``This afternoon, as I was sitting at this table engaged in preparing a dispatch, something seemed to disturb me. Looking up, I beheld standing opposite me a singularly beautiful female. So astonished was I, for I had given strict orders not to be disturbed, that it was some moments before I found language to inquire the cause of her presence. A second, a third and even a fourth time did I repeat my question, but received no answer from my mysterious visitor except a slight raising of her eyes.''

``By this time I felt strange sensations spreading through me. I would have risen but the riveted gaze of the being before me rendered volition impossible. I assayed once more to address her, but my tongue had become useless, as though it had become paralyzed.''

``A new influence, mysterious, potent, irresistible, took possession of me. All I could do was to gaze steadily, vacantly at my unknown visitor. Gradually the surrounding atmosphere seemed as if it had become filled with sensations, and luminous. Everything about me seemed to ratify, the mysterious visitor herself becoming more rarefy and yet more distinct to my sight than before. I now began to feel as one dying, or rather to experience the sensations which I have sometimes imagined accompany dissolution. I did not think, I did not reason, I did not move: all were alike impossible. I was only conscious of gazing fixedly, vacantly at my companion.''

``Presently I heard a voice saying, `Son of the Republic, look and learn,' while at the same time my visitor extended her arm eastwardly. I now beheld a heavy white vapor at some distance rising fold upon fold. This gradually dissipated, and I looked upon a strange scene. Before me lay spread out in one vast plain all the countries of the world - Europe, Asia, Africa and America. I saw rolling and tossing between Europe and America the billows of the Atlantic, and between Asia and America lay the Pacific.''

`` `Son of the Republic,' said the same mysterious voice as before, `look and learn.' At that moment I beheld a dark, shadowy being, like an angel, standing, or rather floating in mid air, between Europe and America. Dipping water out of the ocean in the hollow of each hand, he sprinkled some upon America with his right hand, while with his left hand he cast some on Europe. Immediately a cloud raised from these countries, and joined in mid-ocean. For a while it remained stationary, and then moved slowly westward, until it enveloped America in its murky folds. Sharp flashes of lightning gleamed through it at intervals, and I heard the smothered groans and cries of the American people.''

``A second time the angel dipped water from the ocean, and sprinkled it out as before. The dark cloud was then drawn back to the ocean, in whose heaving billows it sank from view. A third time I heard the mysterious voice saying, `Son of the Republic, look and learn.' I cast my eyes upon America and beheld villages and towns and cities springing up one after another until the whole land from the Atlantic to the Pacific was dotted with them.''

``Again, I heard the mysterious voice say, `Son of the Republic, the end of the century cometh, look and learn.' At this the dark shadowy angel turned his face southward, and from Africa I saw an ill-omened spectre approach our land. It flitted slowly over every town and city of the latter. The inhabitants presently set themselves in battle array against each other. As I continued looking I saw a bright angel, on whose brow rested a crown of light, on which was traced the word `Union,' beating the American flag which he placed between the divided nation, and said, `Remember ye are brethren.' Instantly, the inhabitants, casting from them their weapons became friends once more, and united around the National Standard.''

``And again I heard the mysterious voice saying, `Son of the Republic, look and learn.' At this the dark, shadowy angel placed a trumpet to his mouth, and blew three distinct blasts. And taking water from the ocean, he sprinkled it upon Europe, Asia and Africa. Then my eyes beheld a fearful scene: from each of these countries arose thick, black clouds that were soon joined into one. Throughout this mass there gleamed a dark red light by which I saw hordes of armed men who, moving with the cloud, matched by land and sailed by sea to America. Our country was enveloped in this volume of cloud, and I saw these vast armies devastate the whole country and bum the villages, towns and cities that I beheld springing up. As my ears listened to the thundering of the cannon, clashing of swords, and the shouts and cries of millions in mortal combat, I heard again the mysterious voice saying, `Son of the Republic, look and learn.' ''

``When the voice had ceased, the dark shadowy angel placed this trumpet once more to his mouth, and blew a long and fearful blast. ``Instantly a light as of a thousand suns shone down from above me, and pierced and broke into fragments the dark cloud which enveloped America. At the same moment the angel upon whose head still shone the word Union, and who bore our national flag in one hand and a sword in the other, descended from the heavens attended by legions of white spirits. These immediately joined the inhabitants of America, who I perceived were well nigh overcome, but who immediately taking courage again, closed up their broken ranks and renewed the battle.

``Again, amid the fearful noise of the conflict I heard the mysterious voice saying, `Son of the Republic, look and learn.' As the voice ceased, the shadowy angel for the last time dipped water from the ocean and sprinkled it upon America. Instantly the dark cloud rolled back, together with the armies it had brought leaving the inhabitants of the land victorious!''

``Then once more I beheld the villages, towns and cities springing up where I had seen them before, while the bright angel, planting the azure standard he had brought in the midst of them, cried with a loud voice: `While the stars remain, and the heavens send down dew upon the earth, so long shall the union last.' And taking from his brow the crown on which blazoned the work `Union,' he placed it upon the Standard while the people, kneeling down, said, 'Amen.' ''

``The scene instantly began to fade and dissolve, and I at last saw nothing but the rising, curling vapor I at first beheld. This also disappearing, I found myself once more gazing upon the mysterious visitor who, in the same voice I had heard before, said, `Son of the Republic, what you have seen is thus interpreted: Three great perils will come upon the Republic. The most fearful is the third, but in this greatest conflict the whole world united shall not prevail against her. Let every child of the Republic learn to live for his God, his land and the Union.' With these words the vision vanished, and I started from my seat and felt that I had seen a vision wherein had been shown to me the birth, progress, and destiny of the United States.''

-- impressed (posted@it.before), November 08, 1999.

GoldReal - thanks, I needed that.

-- Dan G (earth_changes@hotmail.com), November 08, 1999.

You know, not to sound like a tinfoil or anything, but just because a person has a rigid belief system, doesn't mean they can't experience something outside of that belief system. There are more things in this world than are dreamt of in any one philosophy, to paraphrase the b

-- CD (CDOKeefe@aol.com), November 08, 1999.

Goldreal,

Wrong, wrong, WRONG. George Washington was not a deist. George Washington was not even half deist. George Washington had nothing to do with deism. There is no documentation of any kind even remotely suggesting that George Washington was a deist.

Also, Goldreal, if you don't mind, please tell us where you got your opinion from.

Thank you.

-- Rick (rick7@postmark.net), November 08, 1999.

Rick,

I shall refer to President George Washington's own written words.

http://www.virginia.edu/gwpapers/farewell/fwatran.html

Excerpt from:

GEORGE WASHINGTON'S FAREWELL ADDRESS

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, Religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labour to subvert these great Pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men & citizens. The mere Politican, equally with the pious man ought to respect & to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private & public felicity. Let it simply be asked where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the Oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in Courts of Justice? ***And let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion.*** Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure--reason & experience both forbid us to expect that National morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."

Note where I have pointed out the sentence:

"And let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion."

Now Rick, you tell me, does sentence sound like the words of a Christian? No, because George Washington was not a Christian. Period.

Further, George Washington never pubically stated or wrote WHAT his personal belief was or wasn't. Again, does this sound like the actions of a Christian? No, because George Washington was not a Christian. Period.

I have also read somewhere, and I will find it and post it, that the minister of the church George Washington attended with his wife, Martha, wrote a letter in response to an inquiry asking specifically about George Washington't religious belief. I believe the actual quote from the minister is, "Sir, he (George Washington) was a Deist."

What would the minister base this assumption on? The fact that George Washington NEVER took holy communion. He always chose to removed himself from the congregation beforehand. Now, does this sound like the actions of a Christian? No, because George Washington was NOT a Christian.

My statements stand.

-- GoldReal (GoldReal@aol.com), November 08, 1999.

Goldreal,

Your post is utter nonsense. Please go back and reread the first part of it. What you are saying does not contracdict the quote.

A Christian will almost certainly agree with everything in the paragraph you quoted.

And no, Goldreal, George Washington's minister did not ever say that George Washington was a Deist. You are engaging in a devious attempt to twist the truth according to your personal preferences.

Once again, George Washington was not a Deist. He was not halfway a Deist. George Washington was a Christian and publicly proclaimed the Christian faith. If you can find any kind of documentation that George Washington was a deist, please present it to us.

Thank you for your attention Goldone.

-- Rick (rick7@postmark.net), November 08, 1999.

My dear Goldone. I must leave for the day.

If you have any doubts about the kind of God George Washington believed in I would recommend you see his Thanksgiving Proclamation of 1789, in which he referrs to God as the "Great Lord and Ruler of the nations."

Thank you for your attention.

-- Rick (rick7@postmark.net), November 08, 1999.

Goldreal:

First of all, people who follow the "the God of Nature" and devise systems based on that notion produce systems where there is scant respect for the average individual. Notions of inalienable rights come from a Judeo-Christian notion of God, who cares about each of his creations. I consider this God to be correct, higher, much more sophisticated than various, sundry, inscrutable, and implacable nature gods.

"And let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion."

What President Washington was obviously stating is that you cannot have morality without God and religion. When disbelief reigns society's moral fabric frays rapidly. Actions previously held in contempt become common practice, or worse become celebrated as marks of some "new morality."

-- Bryan (BryanL@aol.com), November 08, 1999.

GoldReal; You sir fail to understand the significance of the bronze plaque in Bruton Parish Church in Williamsburg Virginia, where he attended services, along with many, many, of the fathers... No, he was a Christian, pure and simple. As was Jefferson, no matter what people may say, he loved her and stayed true to her. Despite a society which would not tolerate such a marriage... Nope, these were Christians and barring that GOOD men.

-- (...@.......), November 08, 1999.

Okay, just to sum up what I understand: George Washington = Deist Thomas Jefferson = Deiost Harry Belafonte = Day-O-ist

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

-- Daylight Come (and_me_want@go.home), November 08, 1999.

GoldReal:

RE: Your blatant misinterpretation of the following by Washington: "And let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion."

George Washington is simply saying what Christians today have been trying to get across to the liberals of our day. That is, without God, without submission to and deferance to the bible as God's word, as the standard authority of right and wrong you cannot know right from wrong.

The liberals today think they can be good people without all this religious gobbledy gook. They think they can create their own utopian society by using their own expedient reckoning of moral relativism. Therefore, in college and university classrooms all across the nation, students are taught that we cannot judge any other culture. We cannot even judge Hitler. There is no right or wrong. Only different ways of looking at life. If a woman wants to kill the fetus within her then that is her rightful choice.

But if there really does exist a God, who has condemned child sacrifice and those nations which have practiced it then I would submit that George Washington was on to something. Moral relativism is an outgrowth of rebellion to God and extreme arrogance.

I think if you look into the life of George Washington you will find that he was a prayer warrior and a great Christian example. Once you chuck Jesus Christ and the bible out the window in any culture you have just opened up pandoras box for all kind of evil to invade the land.

By the way, "Natures God" is Almighty Jehovah, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the Creator of the universe and everything in it. Nothing unChristian about that phrase.

S. David Bays

-- S. David Bays (SDBAYS@prodigy.net), November 08, 1999.

Rick,

As promised, here is the article with the quote (last paragraph). Although not from Martha's minister, it is instead from a long time friend of George Washington's. Enjoy.

George Washington

http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html

Much of the myth of Washington's alleged Christianity came from Mason Weems influential book, "Life of Washington." The story of the cherry tree comes from this book and it has no historical bases. Weems, a Christian minister portrayed Washington as a devote Christian, yet Washington's own diaries show that he rarely attended Church.

Washington revealed almost nothing to indicate his spiritual frame of mind, hardly a mark of a devout Christian. In his thousands of letters, the name of Jesus Christ never appears. He rarely spoke about his religion, but his Freemasonry experience points to a belief in deism. Washington's initiation occurred at the Fredericksburg Lodge on 4 November 1752, later becoming a Master mason in 1799, and remained a freemason until he died.

To the United Baptist Churches in Virginia in May, 1789, Washington said that every man "ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience."

After Washington's death, Dr. Abercrombie, a friend of his, replied to a Dr. Wilson, who had interrogated him about Washington's religion replied, "Sir, Washington was a Deist."

So there you have it folks. I have provided George Washington's OWN WORDS, as well as the words of his friend Dr. Abercrombie as evidence that George Washington was NOT a Christian, with web site references to back it up.

Where is your evidence? your web site references? and who authored it?

-- GoldReal (GoldReal@aol.com), November 09, 1999.

Well, seems I have struck a nerve. Good. Shows how insecure you are in what you have been brainwashed by the religious PTB to think.

For the record, I was raised a Southern Baptist Christian. Repented of my sins, accepted Jesus as my personal savior and Baptized at age twelve. Then I joined the church and worked actively in it.

At age 36, I woke up from the brainwashing and hypocrisy the Christian Religion invokes upon the children and adults unfortunate enough to become snared by it.

I made a self-correction based upon my own two year in-depth research on the very subject of "God". To make a long story short, my conclusion was, and still is:

For "God" to be creator of all, makes God the Creator of both good and evil. For God to be against evil, and for good, makes God in conflict with himself, seeing everything that exists is the direct result of God creating it.

1) If God wanted evil to exist then Adam and Eve had no choice but to sin. Yet, God blamed them and even punished them for sinning.

2) If God did NOT want evil and sin to exist, then why does it? God wouldn't be who God claims to be, now would he, if something exists which he did NOT want nor intend to exist.

The Christian (and other dogmatic) concept(s) of God being without error, perfect, Only GOOD, always present, and Creator of ALL (except evil and sin???) in a world where evil and sin readily exists, is an insult to any intelligent openminded clear thinking person.

I woke up from the religious brainwashing. I hope these words help you do the same.

Peace, Truth, Freedom

-- GoldReal (GoldReal@aol.com), November 09, 1999.

S. David Bays,

"And let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion."

What Washington is saying in this paragraph is, Morality doesn't require religion yet religion must be based upon moral teachings. The life of a moral politician and the life of a religious person are indistinguishable as to their daily actions towards themselves, their family and their neighbors. Religion is nothing more than a person's public (and oftentimes egotistical) acknowledgement that they are dedicated to living a moral lifestyle.

I understand why Christians can not accept this fundamental fact of life. It is not allowed in the Christian doctrine you have been taught is Truth. Well, you have been taught in error.

There has been, and continues to be GREAT MORAL LEADERS who are NOT Christian or religious in many cases. Carl Sagan is one example that comes to mind. Thomas Jefferson is another example. The Dalai Lama yet another. The teachings of Gautama Buddha still another.

Christianity isn't "special". Christians are not "better" or "more enlightened" or "closer to God" than anyone else alive today. Never have been, never will be. Everyone is equal in that respect. However, Christianity IS "special" in that it IS the most aggressive of ALL modern religions. Consider what "Christian aggression" has accomplished:

Near extinction of the Aztecs.

Near extinction of the American Indian.

Near extinction of the Jews. (Yes, the Vatican and Hitler had a REAL cozy relationship.)

Burning of witches (including children)

And more recently, the genocide of thousands of Albanians by the Christian Serbs.

Need I say more? Please wake up. The Christian dogma is killing people, both physically and mentally. Evolve beyond it before you get so far behind the rest of the world's truly moral population that you self-destruct and take many innocent, kind, loving and MORAL non- Christians with you.

Peace, Truth, Freedom

-- GoldReal (GoldReal@aol.com), November 09, 1999.

Bryan,

Okay Bryan, if your God is the "Correct God", how can there be an incorrect God UNLESS your God sanctioned it in the first place?

It's a complete contridiction. It reeks of "human design", a flawed concept put forth as Truth in ignorance of Truth. Taught as truth for two centuries now, engrained in memory preventing recognition of its inherent contridictions and flaws.

Please wake up. Research and learn...comprehend how non-Christians view life and death. Compare other beliefs to your belief. Grow in knowledge and understanding. Afterall, it's only a belief. It's not like your God or the 3,999 other Gods throughout human history can actually be objectively proven.

-- GoldReal (GoldReal@aol.com), November 09, 1999.

Goldreal, I guess you have touched a sensitive nerve. What you are engaging is is, to me, an attempt at historic revisionism.

If you don't mind, I will add a few comments to your post directed at me.

Rick, As promised, here is the article with the quote (last paragraph). Although not from Martha's minister, it is instead from a long time friend of George Washington's. Enjoy. George Washington http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html Much of the myth

Sources please

of Washington's alleged Christianity came from Mason Weems influential book, "Life of Washington." The story of the cherry tree comes from this book and it has no historical bases. Weems, a Christian minister portrayed Washington as a devote Christian, yet Washington's own diaries show that he rarely attended Church. Washington revealed almost nothing to indicate his spiritual frame of mind, hardly a mark of a devout Christian. In his thousands of letters, the name of Jesus Christ never appears. He rarely spoke about his religion, but his Freemasonry experience points to a belief in deism. Washington's initiation occurred at the Fredericksburg Lodge on 4 November 1752, later becoming a Master mason in 1799, and remained a freemason until he died.

This author is reading a whole lot into freemasonry. Many Christians have belonged to freemasonry over the years. Also, it is misleading to suggest that Washington was not a Christian simply because he did not speak or write about it a great deal. George Washington assented to the Christian faith and is known to have spent time each morning kneeling in front of a chair praying. George Washington's testimony was in his character and in that small handful of occasions in which he did mention God, such as his Thanksgiving Proclamation of 1789, in which he refers to God as the "Great Lord and Ruler of the nations." Please see http://www.virginia.edu/gwpapers/thanksgiving/thanks- doc.html

To the United Baptist Churches in Virginia in May, 1789, Washington said that every man "ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience."

Most Christians today agree with this statement. There are only a small number of people today who want to use force to try to make everyone accept christianity.

After Washington's death, Dr. Abercrombie, a friend of his, replied to a Dr. Wilson, who had interrogated him about Washington's religion replied, "Sir, Washington was a Deist." So there you have it folks.

So there we have it. An academic has set up a web page alleging that a friend of George Washington told someone at some time that George Washington was a Deist. Yeah. I guess Washington was just lying when he gave his Thanksgiving address in 1789. He was not praying to the God of Christianity, because GoldReal can read Washington's mind. . . . GoldReal has a mind-reading machine attached to a time machine....I guess.

I have provided George Washington's OWN WORDS,

Uh . . where have you provided Washington's own words as well as the words of his friend Dr. Abercrombie as evidence that George Washington was NOT a Christian, with web site references to back it up.

Uh . . . really. GoldReal, how about a Library of Congress Reference number for your dubious claim that Washington was a Deist

Where is your evidence? your web site references? and who authored it?

Uh . . . who authored the above reference to one Mr. Abercrombie who said that George Washington was a Deist. I would like to know where to go to find (preferably) an original source, or else a published book that mentions this interesting statement. Of course, even if you provide such a reference that doesn't mean that I will automatically discount everything else that Washington said and did.

Finally, GoldReal I would encourage you to rexamine the idea that George Washington was not a Christian simply because he did not speak about it a great deal. I would point of the example of the Norwegian Dag Hammerskjold. He was a Secretary General to the UN who said virtually nothing about his faith. Only in the dawn of his life did he write about the very strong faith he had in God and its hold on his day to day affairs. Dag did not see his faith as something for everyone to shout from the houstops, but he held a strong faith nonetheless.

-- Rick (rick7@postmark.net), November 09, 1999.

In all of William Shakespeare's works, where did he ever mention Jesus?

-- Randolph (dinosaur@williams-net.com), November 09, 1999.

"Consider what "Christian aggression" has accomplished: Near extinction of the Aztecs. Near extinction of the American Indian. Near extinction of the Jews. Burning of witches (including children) And more recently, the genocide of thousands of Albanians by the Christian Serbs."

Two Questions: 1) If an Atheist blows up a school full of children, are we to blame that on Atheism? 2) What were the beliefs held by Mao Tse Tung and Josef Stalin?

-- Clay Rains (clay@clayrains.com), December 18, 2004.