Remember that (long) post about the embedded systems in the wells and refineries from DD1stLight? Essentially, (as I read it) she said that 45% of our oil supply would be stopped, sometime in January, and that the much-touted "strategic reserve" was corrupted and hard to pump anyhow, and that the simple, non electronic oil wells were pretty much tapped out. Remember all that...just a few days ago?

OK. Three points/questions

According to another transcript of the same post (apparently originally on a chat board), DD1stLight, besides being a trouble shooter/problem solver for the oil industry with 30 years experience, is also a Native American, and an elder in her tribe. With all due respect, and I mean this very sincerely, most of us tend to ferret out those pieces of information which support or corroborate with our central belief systems. (I know I do.) I cannot say how a Native American thinks, but it would seem to me, if I were a Native American, that I would be dismayed at what the Europeans have done to this geography, and would be somewhat satisfied to see it all come back and bite them. Would this have any impact even unconsciously,on what DD1stLight is saying?

Second: There are a lot of engineers, etc., on this board. What has been the general opinion of others in this field?

Third: Suppose this person is correct. Surely, she is not the only expert in this country to have arrived at those conclusions. WHY have not others come forward to warn us of this impending disaster? I have a suggested answer for this one:

Isn't there a whole group of folks in this country who view the pollution caused by the automobile as the reason for "global warming," etc., and would like to see the automobile go away? The head of the EPA, Brauner; the former California Gianturko ("We will get you out of your cars"); and our dear presidential hopeful, Algore, who has written a book, in which he states that the automobile is the worst thing that ever happened to us... Didn't the US recently sign some sort of treaty in which we agreed to reduce our pollution by XX so that developing nations could continue to pollute?

Is it possible that TPTB are going to allow this to happen, for their own agendas? During WWII, gasoline was rationed, but farmers and other important people (gov't, military, etc.)got extra. Would not a severe shortage of oil and gasoline, say 50%, keep the industries, the power companies, the gov't, the military going while reducing pollution, keeping the citizens in the cities and furthering the designs of the NWO?

I lurk a lot on this board (probably too much!), and I don't have a lot to say because most of you are so far ahead of me...but I'd like to know what you all think. Thanks.

-- Mary (CAgdma@homenothere.com), November 05, 1999

Answers

Mary,

Thanks for bringing up a thoughtful issue.

I mentioned on one of those posts that I could find no information on the Kee-Apa tribe, which DD says she belongs to. Of course there are some very small Indain tribes, so she may still be an Elder indeed. I am skeptical of DD's claims, yet I still believe that Y2K will introduce many difficulties, and that petroleum/gasoline will be at the forefront of those problems. DD is not the only one to point to problems in the petroleum industry.

I hope we can get more petroleum experts to contribute to this forum.

Petroleum is a showstopper. If the petroleum issues aren't resolved, we will have problems in spades in late January.

-- Rick (rick7@postmark.net), November 05, 1999.

One reason that I find the recent "chat" about oil credible is that ist is consitent with other investigations on the oil industry.

I recall a lengthy article from the Houston Chronical this spring which said very little remediation is going on. We have had consistent reports that pipelines, oil platforms, and other crucial equipment has not been remediated (since it would be a trmendous financial hardship now to take them out of service).

The issue of the contamination of the strategic preserve is a new one for me, but quite pausible. They have pumped oil into old salt domes and other geological structures.

Those who have good archives, good memories, and good linking skills could help us all by digging up some of the previous oil/gas/gasoline reports over the last year.

-- David Holladay (davidh@brailleplanet.org), November 05, 1999.

For No.1, if DD is living in a tent made of buffalo skins, cooking over an open fire and taking beads and trinkets for compensation, I would agree, NOT. Mary, you have sucked in too much PC. I got none of that from her review. If that is the case, everyone on this forum should list all history, beliefs, ......... and go into a never ending psychobabble so someone who is PC can translate to us idiots what is being said. I am tired of PC. DD is an American. Period. . . . .

No.3. If the ozone crowd is upset with auto polution, wait till all Americans start to heat with coal and wood in their homes. They'll crap their pants when they see this polution. And who will stop it? Only those wearing lead-proof clothing.

Consider DD's info as one input. Put it on your personal scale of y2k info. Over time, the weight of the evidence will tip your personal scale one way or another. Are you prepared for either? Best be prepared for both.

-- enough is (enough@enough.com), November 05, 1999.

i will comment on only a portion of the 3 questions.

the strategic reserve is mostly fedhype. it consists of plans and procedures rather than vast storage of petroleum (of any kind). this is common with most fedprograms. this is based on the old premise:

"after all is said and done... there will be more said than done."

i was involved in the development of a part of this "strategic reserve" in '74-'75 following the opec mess and the embargo. i worked with the corps of engineers (essayons) in mapping the interiors of two huge limestone quarries, one in lexington, kentucky the other in ironton, ohio. the plan was to seal the interiors of the underground caverns with epoxy and store petroleum (crude or otherwise to be later determined) for military and/or national security purposes. the work was completed (surveys, estimates etc.) sent to higher authority and ended up in someone's file 13. no work was ever done at these two sites... they both are still producing limestone products and once people adjusted to paying 85 cents per gallon (oh how i long for those prices) for gasoline the "shortage" suddenly disappeared and gasoline was once again in abundance. (look at the tahoes, navigators and suburbans on the road now with today's prices)

don't count on a "strategic reserve" of anything... especially fuel for your generators, oil heaters or vehicles.

-- clayton (ratchetass@hotmail.com), November 05, 1999.

Mary

These questions are best answered by DD1stLight, but some things spring to mind.

"I cannot say how a Native American thinks, but it would seem to me, if I were a Native American, that I would be dismayed at what the Europeans have done to this geography, and would be somewhat satisfied to see it all come back and bite them. Would this have any impact even unconsciously,on what DD1stLight is saying? "

You had it right with he first part of your sentence. You can't say how a 'Native American' thinks. I'm betting they think alot like you and I. It seems you have bought in to a stereotype.

"Second: There are a lot of engineers, etc., on this board. What has been the general opinion of others in this field? "

I'm interested in this sort of thing as well.

"Third: Suppose this person is correct. Surely, she is not the only expert in this country to have arrived at those conclusions. WHY have not others come forward to warn us of this impending disaster? I have a suggested answer for this one: "

Think of it this way. DD1stLight has come forward, and how many people know of what she has said? Anyone outside the people or trolls on this forum? What makes you think that there aren't others who have come forward? If it's not on the TV, it didn't happen. Even with the internet. Don't beleive me? Where does most of the information on this forum come from. We rehash TV and newspaper articles. I find it useful that all that news is printed here, often with intelligent comentary (plus some jeers), but it still mostly comes from a news organization somewhere.

"Isn't there a whole group of folks in this country who view the pollution caused by the automobile as the reason for "global warming," etc., and would like to see the automobile go away?"

Yes, and their creature is in power now. (To be fair, I myself would like to see petro-powered cars be replaced). Would they go so far as to sabatoge through inaction the current infastructure of the world that they are gaining the upper hand in? I doubt it, but I see your point.

"Would not a severe shortage of oil and gasoline, say 50%, keep the industries, the power companies, the gov't, the military going while reducing pollution, keeping the citizens in the cities and furthering the designs of the NWO? "

Depends on who's version of the NWO. If it's the giant all powerful multinational corporation, probably not. If it's the One World Government scoialists, maybe. All I know is that, for whatever reason, there is a push weaken the sovreiginty of the US, and I'm not for that at all.

" ...and I don't have a lot to say because most of you are so far ahead of me... "

Oh tut. Jump right in. If I may, though, please try to be polite and courteous and be able to back up things that you say with at least a reason for saying it. And armor yourself by being ready to ignore those who are tiresome and childish in their discourse. The more thoughtful eyes and ears the forum has, the more utility it gains.

Watch six and keep your...

-- eyes_open (best@wishes.not), November 05, 1999.

Mary said: "I cannot say how a Native American thinks, but it would seem to me, if I were a Native American, that I would be dismayed at what the Europeans have done to this geography, and would be somewhat satisfied to see it all come back and bite them. "

Native Americans are people too, some are greedy, paranoid, etc. There are some, however, that believe in the 'old ways'. These people are not spiteful in any way and are more concerned over mankind's treatment of all of creation than the Europeans and the local geography. The old Indian prophecies (pick a tribe, there all basically the same) have foretold our past and present very accurately and also talk about what's next. To sum it up, what goes around comes around and that circle is quickly coming to a close.

-- BH (bh_silentvoice@hotmail.com), November 05, 1999.

Mary - I see very little possibility that TPTB (at least any consortium involving Gore) have an agenda associated with an oil shortage, or even believe that a shortage is possible. I have not seen it discussed on this board, but Gore's recent announcement that he will run on a strong environmental platform which will feature a promise to ban off-shore oil drilling is enough to lose the election for him if we do have a shortage.

-- Brooks (brooksbie@hotmail.com), November 05, 1999.

I was checking out past oil posts and I recall this article being posted here and then on GN's site like a day or so afterwards. Anyway, at: www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_99/rc062199.html is worth coomparing this to; or if you want to read GN's comments on this, check out under Power Grid on 6/21/99 the article that states 10% to 20% failure rate wellheads at oil, embedded chip. I thought the same article was posted here, but in a longer version. Does anybody remember this too?

-- Marsha (MSykes@court.co.macon.il.us), November 05, 1999.

Mary,

A 50% drop in Petroleum availability in the U.S would not allow the current population to be serviced; that is, fed, heated, and working.

Period.

Lots fewer people here in 1940-45.

-- Dennis (djolson@cherco.net), November 05, 1999.

You wanted archives on oil industry preparation down around Houston....?

FIRST: from the always-excellent FreeRepublic.com...

Topic: Y2K News

Why I am so Concerned about y2k.

xBob 1990531 xBob

Attention All Freepers and To the Skeptic _Jim and the Sir LaughALots

Why I am concerned!

I live in East Texas, around Beaumont. Spindletop, the original giant oil strike for North America is located here. It is the major center for petro-chemical processing plants in the US. Within a 5 mile radius, of my home there are over a dozen petro-chem plants. Mile after mile of plants. Mile long railroad trains of tank cars with all kinds of exotic names and hazardous signs flow in and out many times a day. Within a 25 mile radius we produce problably 25-30 percent of the petro-chemical output of the whole US. Within a 50 mile radius, it is probably up to about 40%, and within a 100 mile radius is well over 50%. If you look on a map of gas pipelines, you will see that they are like a spider web crossing the country, spreading out from a hub, right here in SE Texas and western Lousiana. Probably 80% of the natual gas in the country comes from within 150 mile radius.

There aren't a lot of people here, maybe 150,000 in a 50 mile radius. Most people in the US have never even heard of Beaumont, Texas. But I will guarantee you, that every single person in the US and many of those in the world use, each and every day, something of which some essential component part was made right here in what is locally called "The Golden Triangle". Whether it is fuel for your vehicle, or the paint for your car, amonia for your Windex, plastic for your CD's, asprin for your headache, plastic garbage bags, processing chemicals for steel, processing chemicals for drugs, both legal and illegal, rubber for your tires, rubber for your Rubbermaid plastic kitchenware, fertilizer for your lawn, fertilizer and pesticides for the farmer's crops (your food), those strangely named food additives and preservatives, such as those that keep your bread fresh.

We have one, yes only one, power plant here, run by Entergy (which is partially owned by the Red Chinese), and we import additional electricity from other areas. When asked about y2k, they say, "Don't worry, you will have electric for y2k." When asked when will they be y2k compliant, they say "Don't worry, we are working on it."

We have one telephone company, South Western Bell. Our local TV news channel is doing a series on y2k. When asked about y2k, just last week, they refused to comment. So, in spite of what _Jim says, I am concerned about the telephones.

Last fall, when I called our local Emergency Response center and asked how they were coming on y2k preparations, they responded, "What is y2k?"

Of the several chemical plants from which I have been able to get responses from, they have all been of the "Don't worry. Be happy. We are working on it." type.

Am I worried? You're damned right I am. No power here in this area means no natural gas, petroleum or chemical products for probably half the US. No power here means no compressors and you people in Maine using our gas to heat your homes will freeze your butts off. So, yes I am worried and I think justifyably so.

SECOND....

Houston Chronicle

Feb 14, 1999

February 13, 1999, 08:10 p.m. Y2K petrochemical warnings sounded

For educational and discussion purposes only:

Houston-area plants race computer-driven clock to prevent disaster

By BILL DAWSON Copyright 1999 Houston Chronicle Environment Writer

As the nation's petrochemical capital, Houston faces a unique array of potential problems, ranging from the catastrophic to the merely troublesome, because oil and chemical plants are controlled with thousands of computer chips that may be vulnerable to the much-publicized Year 2000 bug.

Industry officials are racing the clock to identify and correct plant systems containing date-sensitive chips that won't read 2000 properly. At the same time, companies are reviewing and refining their contingency plans in case they don't find all the problem chips and the computer glitch causes an emergency.

With a flood of recent reports on the Y2K bug's threat in other computerized areas of modern life, the additional specter of fires, explosions and toxic clouds at petrochemical plants might seem like premillennial jitters or technophobia.

In this case, however, the warnings are coming from people and groups more noted for their expertise in the industry's complex workings than for any tendency toward doomsaying, and who are taking care to distinguish their concern from alarm.

"It's not a hoax," said Ray Skinner, area director of the U.S. Occupational Safety and Health Administration's Houston South office. "It's a real issue and something that's very, very important." Other examples:

7 The Paris-based Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, which counts the United States and 28 other nations as members, declared in December through its Working Group on Chemical Accidents that the possibility of problems caused by the Y2K bug is "a serious problem which must be addressed immediately."

7 The U.S. Chemical Safety and Accident Investigation Board, a new nonregulatory agency, has been drafting a report to Congress on the need to head off Y2K problems. "This is a problem that touches everybody, but I don't think there's a reason to be panicked," said Dr. Sam Manan, a Texas A&M University expert on chemical safety participating in the report's preparation.

7 The Oil & Gas Journal, a leading trade periodical, last fall called the Y2K bug, including its safety ramifications, a "problem of unprecedented scope for (the) petroleum industry."

7 An OSHA memo advises industry officials to evaluate devices including alarms, air monitors, hazard-communication databases, generators and underground tank monitors for possible Y2K problems. "Fixing the problem may be painstaking and labor intensive," it says. "Not fixing it may be worse."

Industry officials not only are trying to prevent problems in their own plant systems, but also are alert to the disastrous potential if the Y2K bug somehow cuts off electric power to their facilities for an extended period.

Dr. Angela Summers, a chemical engineer and safety consultant who works with many petrochemical companies, imagines such a scenario:

It's early morning on Jan. 1, 2000. Dancing lights sparkle on the Houston Ship Channel's murky waters. They aren't reflections of anyone's millennium party, but dozens of safety flares that have roared into action at oil and chemical plants along the channel. The improbable suddenly has become reality.

"Houston will be well lit" if that happens, Summers said. "It will look like a big birthday cake from the sky."

The cheerfulness of that image is actually fitting. Planned shutdowns of large oil and chemical plants take days, even weeks, to ensure safety and pollution problems don't crop up. Any unplanned shutdown is riskier, but the successful activation of all those flares would be the best outcome, because they burn gases that otherwise might escape disastrously.

The extensive safeguards in place at petrochemical plants have become increasingly dependent on computer technology in recent years, necessitating the correction of software and other items that might fall prey to the Y2K bug.

Since the 1970s, plants increasingly have been laced with thousands of devices employing date-sensitive computer chips, which help workers control chemical reactions, monitor operating conditions and carry out safe plant shutdowns.

If even one or a few chips can't read the year 2000 properly, those systems might not work properly. The prospect of several simultaneous failures is particularly worrisome to safety experts, as is the prospect of one failure causing other devices to malfunction.

Other facilities like offshore oil platforms and pipelines, which form a spider's web beneath the Houston area, also depend on "embedded systems," so named because computer chips are embedded in them. `Triage' situations

The word "triage" frequently crops up in descriptions of industry efforts to find and correct systems susceptible to Y2K problems. Because there may not be enough time left to find all date-sensitive items -- especially for some late-starting or slow-moving companies -- many efforts are focusing on systems critical to plant operations and safety.

Some industry officials say flatly that if a company is not far along in its efforts to become "Y2K-compliant" by now, it should now work intensively on contingency planning for a possible emergency.

Many corporations, trade organizations, government agencies and academic experts are paying attention to the issue and stepping up their efforts to address it.

A frequent refrain is that large petrochemical companies will probably avoid major Y2K-related problems but that small and mid-size enterprises -- including facilities that use but don't make toxic chemicals -- may lack sufficient awareness or resources to do the necessary detective work and retrofitting.

"There is a sizable concern, which I share, that there may be people who are not attentive to this issue and that it could cause serious problems at their facilities," said Dr. Jerry Poje, a toxicologist and member of the Chemical Safety and Accident Investigation Board.

"At a minimum, they might have a plant shutdown," Poje said. "But even if it's a safe shutdown, the period of time (to accomplish that and then safely restart operations) is too painful for small businesses and work forces to absorb."

Drawing criticism from some chemical safety advocates, government agencies at the state and federal level are pursuing a nonregulatory approach that emphasizes communicating the need for potentially affected companies to take preventive action.

The Texas Natural Resource Conservation Commission, the state's principal environmental protection agency, has confined its involvement to form letters advising regulated facilities that Y2K-related corrections may be needed to assure public health and safety. The letters provide references to sources of information on the Internet. Limited resources

"We really don't have the resources to offer the regulated community any kind of technical assistance," TNRCC spokesman Patrick Shaughnessy said.

Federal agencies have principally focused on working with industry organizations, such as the American Petroleum Institute and Chemical Manufacturers Association, to spread the word to member companies about the need to fix Y2K problems.

"Early in these discussions, we told trade associations we were not approaching them as a regulator, but were trying to partner with them, to increase awareness, develop surveys and make them public," said Don Flattery, sector outreach coordinator for the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency's Project Y2K Management Team.

Congressional leaders have made clear they have little interest in granting extra powers to federal agencies to address the issue now, either with regulation or detailed advice on corrective measures.

"Specific technical guidance would be very difficult, particularly at this juncture, at this stage of the game," he said.

OSHA's Skinner said efforts aimed at finding and correcting Y2K problems are widespread at Houston-area plants, at least those visited recently.

"At every plant we've dealt with, they're working on it," he said. Still, he voiced concern that plans to get prepared for computer-glitch complications at certain plants could increase safety risks, especially for workers.

He worries, for instance, that companies' concerns about a Y2K-triggered shortage of oil or processed chemicals might prompt them to stock up, refilling older process vessels near plant control buildings that are now kept empty to enhance worker safety.

At the same time, he said, such companies may assign additional workers to these now more-vulnerable buildings in case they need to perform more control functions manually when Y2K problems afflict plant systems.

Two companies with Houston-area plants -- OxyChem and Rohm and Haas -- described their Y2K-readiness efforts in December at a special meeting of the Chemical Safety and Accident Investigation Board in Washington, D.C., on the issue. 18,000 items to check

With the help of a consultant, OxyChem identified 18,000 items in its 34 plants' control systems that needed to be checked -- a much-larger number than plant personnel had found in their own, more limited inventory in 1996.

Employees developed a screening method to identify those devices with possible Y2K problems -- looking for those that generate a real-time date, for instance, or share digital signals with another device, said Dan Daley, the company's maintenance director.

This screening winnowed the 18,000 devices to fewer than 500, which are now being fixed, undergoing further testing or which require extra guidance from their manufacturer to assess, said Dan Daley, the company's maintenance director.

"Nominally, by midyear we hope to have all remediation complete," Daley said. "Our objective is to run through the key Y2K dates, but there are still issues that we need to deal with, including whether our electric suppliers and the overall electricity grid will be supplying our plants adequately."

Like OxyChem, Rohm and Haas is combining its search-and-repair efforts with contingency planning, including an evaluation of whether to temporarily shut down plants before Dec. 31 as an extra precautionary measure.

"Certainly one is to stop production at some point before the millennium, but that's only one option," spokesman Ken Gedaka said. `Shutdown' mode

Some Rohm and Haas plants are typically shut down between Christmas and New Year's Day anyway, and the company may place others that operate at that time -- including its Deer Park facility -- in a "ready-to-shut-down mode," Gedaka said.

The company is now testing some corrected items, Gedaka said, and expects to finish a final step of reintegrating all repaired systems into plant operations by June 30. Some industry officials and other experts fear, however, that not all companies are that far along.

"I haven't heard any customer say they've found a (Y2K-related) failure that would have caused an explosion, but they've found a lot of little things that failed, which in combination may result in an incident," said Summers, the La Marque-based director of Premier Consulting and Engineering, part of Triconex, a company that makes emergency shutdown systems for petrochemical plants.

"I've worked with some companies with process systems that are archaic, with safety systems that are 20 years old," she said. "Some companies are spending a lot of money to fix these problems and some are not spending anything at all." As a result, she believes some plants may not be able to avoid all computer-related safety problems.

"For some of the companies without adequate Y2K preparation, it's likely that some kind of incident will occur -- a potential fire, explosion or toxic release," she said.

With that prospect in mind, experts such as Manan, a chemical engineering professor at A&M and director of its Mary Kay O'Connor Process Safety Center, see a need for public officials in communities near petrochemical facilities to make sure they are ready for Y2K-related emergencies there. "From a local government perspective, do Houston's emergency coordinators know the total number of facilities that might have problems?" he asked. "Do they have response mechanisms in place, and do they have their own Y2K problems in emergency response?

"The whole area of contingency planning needs a quick going-over."

A huge number of other pertinent Y2K quotes can be found on the 'New World Order Intelligence Update' web site at:

http://www.inforamp.net/~jwhitley/Y2KQUOTE.HTM

-- John Whitley (jwhitley@inforamp.net), November 05, 1999.

The term "Native American" is politically correct nonsense. Anyone of any race or ethnic group who was born in this country is a native American. The tribal groups that were here when the Europeans arrived are aborigines, the term that refers to the original inhabitants of an area

-- cody (cody@y2ksurvive.com), November 05, 1999.

Rick,

My grandfather's ranch was in Keeapah (or Keeapaha) County (Nebraska), on the Niobrara river.

That's up between Nebraska and South Dakota, eastern side of the states if you want to look it up on a map.

He grew up with the "Keeapah" indians (pronounced kee-a-pa. [Kee-apah = Kee-Apa]. The spelling got changed by outsiders -- the white settlers and ranchers -- over the course of years.] It might even have changed to Keeapaha now.

-- k (k@l.m), November 05, 1999.

There have been quite a few articles and posts concerning problems in the oil and gas industry. Bruce Beach wrote an article concrening an interview he had with someone at a oil and gas research facility. As I recall, he was told that 20-30 percent of embedded systems in a refinery had y2k problems. It would be great if someone could collect all of these relevant oil and gas industry posts in a website. Neither this forum nor Gary North's site have separate categories for oil and gas.

-- Danny (dcox@ix.netcom.com), November 05, 1999.

Mary,

I think DD is for real, and is giving us some valuable inside information that a regular employee of these corporations would be afraid to share.

The way I see it, Y2K in the oil industry is being handled purely from the perspective of its effects on the bottom line of the balance sheet and nothing else.

Here are a couple of possible ways they could approach this problem:

1. They could have started earlier, and spent a lot of money to dig out all vulnerable embedded systems and replace them. But then, if everything went smoothly, they would have no reason to justify raising prices, and would have spent a fortune to fix everything. All of the money they spent to fix Y2K will have to be factored in by raising prices, but the public will not see any evidence that anything needed to be fixed, and thus they will be enraged.

2. They could save a lot of money by not trying to fix everything, waiting until failures occur and then fixing them. The interruptions to normal supply would give them a perfectly justifiable reason to raise prices enough to counteract the loss of revenues. In other words, they will not lose ANY of their normal revenues, and will be able to cover ALL costs of Y2K repairs by simply raising prices. What can the public say when the supply has been reduced?

In other words, it is better from their point of view to demonstrate that the problem actually exists, and then raise prices to cover all costs. Otherwise, the public will suspect corruption when prices are raised but they see no evidence of problems.

The reality is that if they had started much earlier, they would have been able to get everything fixed with only gradual and moderate price increases, and not put the welfare of their consumers at risk, but we all know it is too late for that approach now.

So, isn't it obvious which approach they are now using, and why?

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), November 05, 1999.