How fast does it turn..... It has been three days since the cyclone hit India. The abc raw news feed http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/reuters19991101_1935.html says, - here it is word for word

".....But the help could not come quickly enough for thousands of desperate villagers who stoped vehicles on the road from Paradip and, wielding sticks, demanded food, drinking water and money.

Over the weekend, shops were looted for potatoes, flour and eggs, and the acute shortage of basic foods was exacerbated Monday as terrified shopkeepers kept their shutters down.

...Huge gueues of cars and trucks snaked from petrol stations, where irate motorists argued over dwindling supplies of fuel."

End quotes from news article.

Every time I convince myself that our American people would not become that lawless, looting, violent crowd if the scenario is a bad one for y2k, - I am blindsided by another article like this. Remember, the looting spoken of in the news article was on - like - day two, of the cyclone.

I have believed that the people who say Americans are going to behave like that are selling the American people short. Especially when the pollies mock the notion with statements like "Oh yeh, don't forget the roving bands of desperate people who will be combing the countryside and taking what they want." They make it sound like a totally "off the wall" scenario. It's happening in India, in less than three days.

Another paragraph in the news article said "Rani, a villager, said desperate villagers accidentally stopped a police car, triggering an baton charge against them.

"We are rushing in additional police to control the situation," Barua said."

Just when I was content with my "It can't happen here."

My spouse always says, "We're just barely civilized, and that's all."

-- homestead2 (homestead@monroecty.net), November 01, 1999

Answers

Yes, "barely civilized" - my view precisely. As soon as "mob culture" starts up, any remnants of civilization go out the window...

-- Y2KGardener (gardens@bigisland.net), November 01, 1999.

So what is your definition of civilization and how does it all "go out the window".

Will Y2K destroy literature, art, and science? Will it wipe everyone's memory clean of medical knowledge? Will it give amnesia to dentists, plumbers and architects? Will it physically destroy all structure, roads and national landmarks? Will it annhilate railroad tracks and subway stations? Will it sweep all the boats out of the ocean? Will it destroy language, both spoken and written? Will it magically evaporate everyone's ability to make music?

A little clarification please...

-- (Thou@art.the egg-man), November 01, 1999.

Interesting the looters were stealing basic survival stuffs:

"Over the weekend, shops were looted for potatoes, flour and eggs, and the acute shortage of basic foods was exacerbated Monday as terrified shopkeepers kept their shutters down."

It just goes to show you how the following saying does apply to being prepared for disruptions:

"Proper planning and preparation prevent pee-poor performance."

Potatoes, flour and eggs...

-- snooze button (alarmclock_2000@yahoo.com), November 01, 1999.

egg-man

remember alexandria? ... get y2k-real!

we're at the brink ...

-- just a wandering outcast (y2ktransient@yahoo.com), November 01, 1999.

Did I somehow miss the reports of all the riots in North Carolina following Floyd? It seems such unrest depends strongly on the nature and resources of the population in the affected area.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), November 01, 1999.

Flint,

I would have said it depends on the nature of the people affected, and the resources of the REST of the population to come to their aid. Big difference.

-- Lon Frank (lgal@exp.net), November 01, 1999.

Flint,

The National Guard was on every corner in North Carolina. State Troopers and local law enforcement were everywhere. This presence will inhibit looting and lawlessness. What will happen when these guys and gals go home to be with their families during Y2K? Be prepared for no protection during Y2K. Comparing the floods in NC to India and to Y2K is totally invalid. India is a nightmare on a good day.

-- Lawman (notreal@thispost.com), November 01, 1999.

Lon:

Was *all* of India affected? I didn't see the map.

Lawman:

Why didn't the enforcement people go home to their families during Floyd? Why will y2k be different, that these people will suddenly stop doing their duties? Do you intend to stay home?

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), November 01, 1999.

The wife and I went to E NC a couple of weeks after Floyd. There were NG and Troopers everywhere. We did hear from some of the local folks about a house that was 'swam' into and looted (no news story, just word of mouth) Just a 0.02 worth...

-- BH (silentvoice@pobox.com), November 01, 1999.

homestead, I'm not sure that you want to compare what has happened in India to the US. Of course I'm not saying it can't or won't happen here. When it comes to human behavior, who knows. But India is a very different place. Been there. I know this is not an answer to your question. sorry

-- (rcarver@inacom.com), November 01, 1999.

Flint,

Don't you know it's hard to riot when you're 6 feet under water? Or when you've been evacuated? Come on, fellow, exercise your polly brain a bit.

-- swimming (down@NC.floyd), November 01, 1999.

Flint,

I mentioned this during the Floyd threads but up here in NJ there *was* some looting during and after the flood. I heard a County Officer say it myself on the news.

-TECH32-

-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), November 01, 1999.

Flint, This is not hearsay.In 1937 the Ohio River Valley had a tremendous flood which led to the construction of the levees and flood walls which now control the river. I was eight yrs. old. Old enough to know what the adults were talking about. Some men in a row boat were apprehended while cutting off the fingers of the bloated corpses floating in the flood waters in order to steal their wedding rings etc. They were shot on the spot and their bodies dropped in the river.

-- Lumber Jack (johnsellis@webtv.net), November 01, 1999.

When the lights went out in NYC in 1977, it took about 10 minutes for the looting to begin in small sections of the city....primarily the Bronx. Within an hour, there was looting in three sections of the city. Granted, this was a surprise event......just like y2k will be to 85% of the population. NYC had over 3500 arrests in 24 hours during the blackout. What happens when the police panic too? You say it won't happen here. No, it won't happen. Not in Fair Play, SC or Green River, NY or even in places like Ashland, KY. It WILL happen in places like Miami, LA. Oakland, Chicago if the power grid goes. It won't matter if there is police and NG on every corner. The need to survive is paramount in every animal. humans included.

I have seen it in one of the most (supposedly) civilized cities in the world (Tokyo). I have seen it in West Africa in cities....but never in the boonies (That takes organization beforehand.) People won't riot for water (except in the summer) but they will riot for heat and food. Yes, a great number will hunker down in their LL Bean coats and complain bitterly about the cold while they freeze. However, there are a fairly large number of people that will go get what they perceive they need. A lot of those are 12-20 year olds that just need an excuse. However, quite a few are older, trained by Uncle Sam in the 60s and 70s and really don't give a damn about civilians. Should be interesting, to say the least.

I really hope you don't live in the city.

-- Lobo (atthelair@yahoo.com), November 01, 1999.

does anyone remember Rodney Strong and LA (it wasn't that many years ago) and that started because the cops got off.

-- MIS (KarlaCALIF@aol.com), November 02, 1999.

Does anyone remember Rodney King? LA? Not too many years ago? That riot started because some cops got off (not saying they should) just that they did.

-- MIS (KarlaCALIF@aol.com), November 02, 1999.

Flint: One little difference between localized catastrophes and a universal one. Where there are localized catastrophes, things are still working elsewhere.

And I guess I have to spell it out: In a localized disaster, recovery can be aided from outside. If a disaster is universal, there is no outside from which to obtain aid.

-- A (A@AisA.com), November 02, 1999.

If there is a sparking incident, a smoldering anger, and/or organization, it can start in hours...or even minutes. (I remember the Rodney King riots, as well..)

-- Mad Monk (madmonk@hawaiian.net), November 02, 1999.

1) The Guard folks did not go home because home was in GREAT SHAPE. THERE WERE NO PROBLEMS at home.

2) in the US, TYPICALLY, Guard units are assigned from some UNAFFECTED areas to go to disaster sites simply because the members living inthe affected areas are TOO DAMN BUSY TO GO PLAY ARMY NOW!! ( as a ranking officer explained to me in a disaster I worked).

3) In the US, the expectation is that the RED CROSS or the SALVATION ARMY will be there fairly soon,and most of the local chapters can do a basic start up of aid until people from other parts of the country can get there. Y2K may not allow the aid agencies the luxury of drawing from the non-affected areas.

Chuck

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), November 02, 1999.

excuse the double post (the first was obviosly a mistake), i should have been to bed hours ago

Night All

-- MIS (KarlaCALIF@aol.com), November 02, 1999.

Tis' a thin veil b'twix man and beastie...

59+/- Left

Ruh Roh Raggy...

Got OOBuck?

-- Billy Boy (Rakkasan@Yahoo.com), November 02, 1999.

It only takes a hand full of people to start a riot. The pissed off group thinks that they are owed something. Remember this summer the Woodstock riot? They interviewed one girl and asked her why she took the CD's and tapes, her answer was "because everyone else was taking them." Remember the floods in Mexico, people were looting and trucks bringing in supplies were hijacked. The stores were wiped out because people were hungry. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this one out. When the goods are gone due to panic, the only place left to loot are your homes.

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), November 02, 1999.

I must have posted this at least a dozen times. Hurricane Fran. Two years ago. Second day without power. Fight over generators delivered at Home Depot. Fight when gas station ran out of gas. And I was berated and nearly clobbered by a very nicely dressed and coiffed matron because I got the last bag of ice from a delivery at Kroger. These are the incidents to which I can personally attest; there were others I did not witness but heard about.

I repeat: second day without power. Unraveling began within 48 hours.

TPTB worked on restoring power in the high-crime and crime-vulnerable areas first; I can attest to that too.

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), November 02, 1999.

Flint knows the answers to his own questions. This is just one of today's anthills and he's the stick.

-- Vic (Rdrunner@internetwork.net), November 02, 1999.

Thanks guys. Gonna go buy more ammo...

-- even more (scared@than.usual), November 02, 1999.

As I read this stuff, sometimes my eyes glaze over, and suddenly its July and I am sitting in the bleachers at the ball park, listening to the fans, and laughing with them.

dave

-- dave (wootendave@hotmail.com), November 02, 1999.

This topic has been on my mind quite a bit lately (hmmmm, wonder why?) because I have been scoping out our neighborhood, as it were. We have determined a nice woody bug out area just 1/8 of a mile (maybe less) from our house and reachable on foot, easily by small side streets (less exposure if we have to run). We have also been trying to mentally hash out what the circumstances would have to be for us to run and pitch our tent in the woods near our subdivision. Definitely a mob of rioting people. (we don't have THAT much ammo and even if we did, there are only two adults in this house) Or the house being on fire to the point that our fire extinguishers can't do the job and there are no emergency services available. I am even going to time how long it takes me to run to that woody spot. I want to do it with my rucksack on my back, but that would look kinda strange, wouldn't it? Carrying our 5 year old daughter while running there would look even stranger. Maybe at night, I will run/jog there with my backpack on and hope Mrs. Kravitz across the street isn't having a boring evening and spying out her window, as usual. Maybe at 2 am. Anyway, we also have to figure out a back way out of our house. See we have no alleys, backyards back up to backyards--shared fences, so no alleys to traverse. And escape through (or possibly get caught in). We would have our daughter with us, so it would be extra difficult.

We live in a densely populated suburb of Dallas, but in a subdivision which is QUITE tucked away. It does not come off of any major streets. There are three entrances/exits to the subdivision, none of which are noticable from any major street. However, there are two large shopping centers within one mile. Our street is VERY tucked in. Friends who visited us when we first moved here said they had no idea there were even houses in here. And getting to our street is like going through a labryinth. So I can't imagine hordes of rioting, looting people coming through here but you never know. When they have stripped the Target and the Sack - N - Save clean.....

-- preparing (preparing@home.com), November 02, 1999.