These troll invasions seem to come in coordinated waves. They seem to feel very comfortable jumping in on any post that challenges trust in the media or in State authority, to slap it down with an insult, or drown out the information with noise. Then, when we object,they cry "censorship!" and accuse us further of lack of balance and objectivity. This is like mobbing a forum on stamp collecting andinsisting they talk about numismatics, or barging into a forum on medical insurance coverage and demanding equal time for discussion of faith healing.

The purpose of this forum is to give people who are concerned about Y2k, and preparing for Y2k, a place to discuss Y2k, and their preparations. In other words, it is a "doomer" place. We shouldn't dignify attempts to disrupt it with a response; disruptive posts should be deleted. Complaints about the forum's "lack of balance" should be laughed out of here: the forum is not about whether or not there is a problem, and we are not obligated to play host to those who would insult us for our estimation of the problem, accuse us of plotting murder and anarchy, or demand that we spend all our time producing documentary evidence each time they shriek "prove it!"

These people are punks, they are an outrage, and they are probably being paid to disrupt. Don't let them fool you into thinking they are worth your respect or your time. They are here to make this forum harder to use for it's intended purpose. Our tolerance of them, and our sympathy for their pleas of "balance" and "fairness" is a weapon they use against us.

If they don't think Y2k will be a problem, they shouldn't be here. Period.

If they persist in their disruption, their threads should be deleted, and they should, insofar as is possible, be banned from the forum.

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), November 01, 1999

Answers

It's wonderfuly ironic that you choose Liberty as your handle.

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), November 01, 1999.

**********************************************************************

Freedom of Speech

The difference between the legitimate members of this forum and the illegitimate posters is simple to explain.

Those who come here in a spirit and attitude of harmony, tranquillity and freedom from disturbance are sharing this forum in the American tradition of freedom of speech. Wherein, no party may utter words which are in violation of the law and yet are free to honestly share thoughts and opinions of interest to those assembled.

IN THIS FORUM as in the public at large, Americans must obey rules of conduct which allow the needs of the group, thus assembled, to communicate as the group honestly seeks. Those who would devise or act to disrupt such free and open discussions, should in the American tradition be warned first to desist.

AND IF THEY CONTINUE, THEY SHOULD BE EJECTED.

The illegitimate posters have ill intent toward the legitimate members of this forum and as such have differentiated themselves by their own definitions and actions. The ill will that they intend and act upon, as a group is unwarranted and unwelcomed. They are clearly here to destroy and disrupt.

THEY SHOULD BE EJECTED.

Freedom of speech is a two edged sword which cuts both ways.

I say lets let it cut them now and be rid of them!

**********************************************************************

-- snooze button (alarmclock_2000@yahoo.com), November 01, 1999.

A high noise ratio is inevitable where speech is free. Try walking along a downtown street - lots of discomforting ranting and raving going on. Sometimes the people doing the ranting make me wonder just what it feels like to be inside that mind - very damaged, very unlucky, I don't know.

Perhaps we are unused to handling this noise because we mostly grew up with TV and radio, where the signal is heavily filtered, designed for just us to hear. We aren't used to doing our own filter-work.

The trolls are a bit of a bother, but not much. When I find a thread that wastes my time, I skip it. Don't have time for even all of the food ones, much less the static. If that's the price we pay for this communication, it's worth it. This forum has been invaluable to me, trolls and all.

-- bw (home@puget.sound), November 01, 1999.

Zoobie,

Any irony is lost on me, "zoobie." I don't think freedom of expression entitles me to walk into a party and piss in the punchbowl.

Liberty is the result, and the occaision, of responsibility. If you don't take responsibility you won't have liberty, and if you misuse it, you will lose it.

Most of us learned this in gradeschool.

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), November 01, 1999.

bw,

This is not a public street. It's a private building that has been graciously opened to the public, for a very specific and narrow purpose. "Crazies," vicious punks or disruptors should be turned away at the door. Your tolerance of them does us a disservice.

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), November 01, 1999.

Please delete this disruptive thread.

-- (delete@delete.delete), November 01, 1999.

Liberty,

For someone who hates diruptors, you sure do seem to have a certain flair for it.

Are you sure you're not leading a double life as a troll? Kind of like a Dr. Doomer/Mr. Polly syndrome?

-- (LOL@you.right now), November 01, 1999.

The problem,"liberty" is that many are all too eager to brand as troll anyone anyone with whom they disagree.Frank Herbert once remarked that it's not that power corrupts but rather that power attracts the corruptable.

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), November 01, 1999.

Liberty, where do we draw the line?.

If someone posts something that is so unbelievable and a few people jump on the poster for it, should that be considered a violation. What determines the right to question anothers post?.

I do agree there are people who live to attack and thats something we should "somehow" try to stop. I would hate to see this place go the way of MichaelHyatt.com, with anyone who opens their mouth to question a topic is slapped down and banned. Imagine if we had that here, what would be the point of discussing anything if we couldnt counter each others views.

Everyone knows you are pro-gun and a constitutionalist, you also view the government and media with alot of animosity, and thats your right. If another person totally disagrees with you and feels the need to go point-for-point against you, why are they a disruptor?.

This place is not a "doomer" site, its a site to discuss topics and concerns regarding Y2k. I will not sit quietly when nut jobs spew apocalyptic sputtum which doesnt deserve the particulate that stores them on a hard drive. On the other hand I despise those who are so arrogant as to belittle those who are "prepping" for a possible Y2k disruption. If we cannot jump on people when needed then what the heck are we doing here.

You cannot decide for all of us what is a valid opinion on a subject and neither can I.

I think this forum is running perfectly now, even with the disruptors. At least this way we have a free exchange of info and people are held somewhat responsible for their posts. If we cannot post retorts, even some which seem acerbic in tone, whats the point of a discussion group.

-- hamster (hamster@mycage.com), November 01, 1999.

Liberty said, "These people are punks, they are an outrage, and they are probably being paid to disrupt."

What have you been sniffing? I'd take one of those nasty disruptors before I'd succumb to your jaded views. Have you forgotten what country you are living in?

-- (MoreLiberty@Freedom.com), November 01, 1999.

Liberty

Ah we meet again :o)

I see the problem in a differant light.

Some folks on the forum are using there emotions as a basis of judgement rather than intelligence. This is where the disrupters are targeting and looking for lots of knee jerk reactions.

There has to be a little more disipline on the part of forum folk not to go blasting off with to much hand wringing.

This forum is not going to be where Y2K hits. It will be in the homes and communities.

We have had this problem before and as far as the opinions go, they have to be respected or ignored. The personal attacks on both sides is a bigger problem. There is no doubt the real trolls are a pain. Attacts to the forum itself should be dealt with swiftly.

You know if folks have a hard time with the problems on the forum, how are they going to handle real problems if the shit hits the fan.

The sysops have done a good job overall IMHO. It is a hard line to walk when dealing with free speach. Lose that and we may as well have TEOTWAWKI.

Even in Canada :o)

-- Brian (imager@home.com), November 01, 1999.

Liberty

I personally enjoy your commentary. I quite frankly, read everything you post, and analyze with interest your answers on others. However, I cant imagine learning anything hear on this forum without having the complete opposite veiw thrown right in my face. Im a true Doomer at heart because of my personel reseach, and on a day to day bases look to be challenged by the Polys here to see if Im right. But that being said, I agree with you hole-heartly about the ones here on this forum whos only goal is to disrupt. That will only deprive the New-bee of learning anything, and thats bad enuff.

-- Les (yoyo@tolate.com), November 01, 1999.

Les,

Thanks for responding to what I was actually complaining about, instead of pretending, for the sake of those not paying attention, that I said something else, as did Brian and Hamster.

I'm not talking about people who disagree with me (and you know that, Weasle. Or Hamster - whatever). I'm talking about people who, on debunky, proclaimed their intention to disrupt this forum, then came over here and are now doing just what they said they would, with some success. Every thread is clogged with their mindless insults, or their disingenuous attacks (like Hamster's invention, above).

I agree with snoozebutton: this is not a windsurfing thread; it's not about naval lint or puppy dogs - or how stupid and pointless it is to prepare for Y2k. Anti-preparation posts are not only irrelevant, they are actively antagonistic to the purpose of the forum, and should be deleted. The assumption of the forum is that Y2k may be of greater or lesser impact, but that regardless, it is worth preparing for. Start from that assumption, or prepare to be branded as a disruptive vandal and ejected.

This forum does not exist to debate the wisdom or appropriateness of preparing for Y2k. That debate should have ended at the door. I implore the sysops to keep this forum true to it's purpose, so that those of us who want to use it for that purpose can do so without interference or insult, and so that those who new and are trying to learn more about Y2k don't have to run a gauntlet of debunky morons. And spare me the "censorship" whining. Debunky morons have their own forum (hence their name), and all are free - have the liberty- to visit there if they please.

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), November 01, 1999.

Opposite viewpoints are fine. Assholes and their smartass comments are not, regardless of their viewpoint, polly or doomer. If we all remember that, then this forum can be an excellent place to find good discussions.

-- haha (haha@haha.com), November 01, 1999.

Liberty is criticising people for mindless insults! HA

I could fill up three pages, no spaces, no paragraph breaks full of Liberty offering what I guess he/she consider "mindfull" insults.

-- (yo@ho.ho. and a bottle of hypocrisy), November 01, 1999.

MODERATORS/SYSOPS,

There is one troll who is going around disruptively interrupting threads and using a different name with each post so he won't get caught. This is also the same troll that started using my previous name last week. I think this has gone far enough and this troll should be backtacked to locate the ISP and he should be blocked out. It is very clear that this person is here only to antagonize.

The culprit posted this on the thread "What do you THINK??"....

"The wonderful thin about being anonymous is that people read your words without being prejudiced. So with that in mind, I'll use a different handle EVERY time I post from now on."

-- Hey man, you like apples???? (bozo@the.damn clown), November 01, 1999."

...and is probably also the same as the one above named "yo ho ho"

Let's nip this thing in the bud now - it's getting out of control.

Thanks

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), November 01, 1999.

Unfortunately, my little in-the-dark-friend, every time I sign on to the internet I am assigned a new ISP, because it's not static. Therefore hwat you are asking for is impossilbe.

It's called technology, look into it.

-- I'm being nice (why@are.you so mad at me?), November 01, 1999.

DON'T TOLERATE DISRUPTORS

To have someone such as Liberty post this request is beyond belief. The dynamics of this forum are a marvelous thing to observe and after many months there seems to be a changing of the guard, so to speak. Liberty is among a handful of people who are anointing themselves as forum royalty and the reasonable old timers seem to be disappearing from the landscape. Trolls and Disrupters are now anyone who disagrees with the fanatical viewpoints put forth by Liberty and others.

Now Im going to throw the ball back in your court Liberty dude and see how many others on this forum will agree with THIS viewpoint:

(1). Y2K issues have taken a back seat to a wide variety of subjects posed here on TB2000. I dont find that too objectionable- how about you?

(2). Liberty, after digesting volumes of your radical right wing, burn down the house, nothing about America is good anymore, BULLSHIT, I think YOU qualify as a DISRUPTER of the first order.

(3). You are but one person with a viewpoint and you should expect (In fact count on it) a lot of flak for your ridiculous blathering.

You holier than thou freaks might get away with domineering within your brain-dead little circles but not here chump.

What do you say people? You tired of these so-called LEADERS trying to call the shots here? SPEAK UP!!!!

-- Truth (at@the.ready), November 01, 1999.

I think the post above, in response to Hawk, shows us what we're dealing with.

Be aware. Ask yourself whether a poster is here to disrupt, and deter people from preparation. They are out in full force.

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), November 01, 1999.

I know that I have been here a full year, doing what I do, and Liberty is just a newbie.

But of course you are right "Truth", they consider themselves royalty because of the way they think, which I presume they believe is Patriotic. Too bad for them this country works by mob rule. Imagine if they ever actually had any real power over anyone? (i.e. Lisa asking for a Delete Key)

-- (oh ya @I'm just a pesky .little "troll".), November 01, 1999.

Pesky..

I recall a few weeks ago that Diane made a comment that led me to believe that the handle Liberty was being used by a well-known forum regular. Kind of like @ morphing into a Hawk. New name, same game.

-- Truth (at@the.regular), November 01, 1999.

Without question, Liberty's fanatical, mindless ranting is beginning to tar those who have serious concerns about very real problems, Most of the pessimistic posters present their case clearly, and provide excellent documentation. There are good reasons for worry, and those reasons deserve to be examined and debated. Liberty, sadly, is a total stranger to good reason.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), November 01, 1999.

You know the saying, "Don't feed the trolls"? That's the best way to handle it. Trolls post to get a reaction. If there's no reaction, the troll will go away.

On the other hand, however, if you are alone, or at least in the minority, in thinking someone is a troll, and other forum members choose to respond; whiners can go pound salt. The "people" have spoken.

There's plenty of people around here that I find irritating, and furthermore, I think they delight in being irritating (which kinda defines a troll, for me). Other forum members seem to take them seriously though, so that's their choice, and I have to respect that. Besides, I may THINK they delight in being irritating, but I can't PROVE it. Since I would be the one making the accusation of "trollism", the burden of proof would rightfully be on me. Ergo, I keep my yap shut. I respectfully offer that others should follow suit.

Just my humble opinion, my two cents worth and my view of democracy.

-- Bokonon (bok0non@my-Deja.com), November 01, 1999.

Bokonon, when one thinks of a reasonable forum regular your name always comes to mind. Thank you for your insightful post that should be read by all of us.

-- Truth (at@the.ready), November 01, 1999.

"The right to be heard does not authomatically include the right to be taken seriously." Hubert Humphrey.

I think what disturbs me most about these particular Troll debates is the inference that parameters must be set for the opinions of others. I find it irritating to be innundated by disrupters, but, I find it alarming the cry to silence them. I have a choice. Either read them or not. I usually choose not to read them and not participate in their care and feeding. Their right to speak, however inane I might view their opinions and their motives, infinitely extends my right speak.

-- Casey DeFranco (caseyd@silcom.com), November 01, 1999.

Sorry..."automatically..."

-- Casey DeFranco (caseyd@silcom.com), November 01, 1999.

Liberty, I have no doubt that the pathetic assholes who are disrupting this forum are especially motivated by the following "convergence":

1) 60 days until Y2K. A psychological tickler for the public at large, realizing that Y2K occurs THE MONTH AFTER NEXT.

2) Recent IRS admission about not even having completed their inventory.

3) The fact that Y2K is suddenly finding it's way into all the mainstream media. Even last night's "Simpsons" episode, though humorous, may have planted some seeds of worry.

Make no mistake about it, "__@_._", YouKnowho and the rest of these trolls are absolutely attempting to cause people who are looking for info on how to prepare to turn away from this forum. In some cases, the role they try to play is that of a "crazed doomer", again for the purpose of giving people the impression that this is "typical" of people who are preparing for Y2K.

I am certainly not in any way trying to insult our responsible pollies, such as Flint or Hoffy. I would hope that they are just as offended by these antics as any of us.

And I do think that our SYSOPS should take a more active role. Remember, chances are people who are just considering whether Y2K is worth preparing for are going to come HERE, not the Preparation Forum. They are not ready to prepare -- yet -- because they are still in the decision making stage. (And they need to make those decisions yesterday, what with time so short.) I think that our SYSOPS should do what they need to do to prevent these disruptions, which have gotten completely out of control.

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), November 01, 1999.

Turn people away from THIS forum? Sure, there are plenty more unbiased forums out there for them to look at. No I don't mean Biffy and Debunky, they are biased too. Until I see a modicum of rationality about Y2K around here I would never advocate anyone come here to learn anything. They can just as well learn somewhere else.

Stan and his 14 days worth of preps threads are about the only moderate thing I see around here. Him I might be willing to direct people to, otherwise there is not *alot of good things to pick up around here.

Sysops prevent disruptions? I agree with that wholeheartedly, but that means deleting half of everything that is posted to this place. If they are unbiased enough to do that, then hip-hip-hooray. But I don't see Critt, Diane or Chuck doing their job. Why? Because like you say, King of Spain, this place it totally out of control.

-- (just@another. "regular"), November 01, 1999.

Please delete this thread.

-- (please@delete.thread), November 01, 1999.

More whinny crybabies worrying about trolls. And yet so many of same cannot resist answering them. But don't worry little ones, if you promise to obey the rules, I'm sure that we can find a nice "Big Brother" who will help you to guard your sensitive little girly feelings against foolish behavior. Then the world will fit your way of seeing it, and baby-boo can rest easy again.

Oh, and BTW, they are not pissing in the punchbowl. But if you let them upset you so, they will be glad to piss in your mind.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), November 01, 1999.

Uncle Dee, we just need more farting here. It clears the chat room out in a hurry;-) sorry folks. inside joke. (And it wasn't me!)

-- (rcarver@inacom.com), November 01, 1999.

I come to this forum because I can find news and articles about Y2K. I read the news and articles and the opinions about the news and articles. I learn from this and am at times entertained.

I do not come here to read threads that are not about Y2K. Thank you for the OT designation.

I do not come here to read postings by a bunch of children bad mouthing other peoples posts. My time is wasted when I am reading an interesting thread and some moronic troll posts garbage.

I can skip the antagonistic threads but these @$#% are posting everywhere and I would agree these posts do not belong here.

-- Mr. Pinochle (pinochledd@aol.com), November 01, 1999.

What if the pollies are actually doomers and the doomers are actually pollies?

-- What If? (questions@to.ask), November 01, 1999.

Liberty makes some excellent points, but I wonder if it is really practical to moderate this forum. Perhaps the best way to deal with the disrupters is to ignore them. It is unfortunate that the posters name appears at the end of a message rather than at the beginning. I don't have time to read all of the posts nad I usually avoid posts by Flint and a few others, because they seem to be saying the same thing over and over again using slightly different words.

-- Danny (dcox@ix.netcom.com), November 02, 1999.

Liberty,

I have to disagree with you this one time, although it IS a rare occasion that I DO disagree with your opinions. I respect and agree with your point of view.

I skip the "doomer/polly war" threads. I have no use for them. Same goes for disruptive posts inside a thread. It is simple... Granted it makes for a more complicated navigation of this site, and the site would be faster if the unnecessary was eliminated. But, I would not want to be the one to try to determine the dividing line as to what is "unnecessary"...

scratchin'...

The Dog

-- Dog (Desert Dog@-sand.com), November 02, 1999.

Liberty (and I use that term very loosely for you:

You need to head to the archives and read a poster name of "hardliner searcher@the.internet".

YOU......need to change your handle.

"don't tolerate disruptors" -- The english Government to the American colonials.

Think about what would have happened. .......THINK.....about it, before you shoot your mouth off again.

You also need to stop spreading the same lies as OldGit about "avowed disruptors"

-- You Know (little@to.nothing.....kid.), November 02, 1999.