Just posted on Drudge Report http://www.drudgereport.com

XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX SATURDAY, OCTOBER 30, 1999 20:07:44 ET XXXXX

FBI WARNS OF MILLENNIAL VIOLENCE RISK

The WASHINGTON POST is reporting on Sunday: "The FBI is warning police chiefs nationwide that it's discovered evidence of religious extremists, racists, cults and other groups preparing for violence as New Year's Eve approaches, and is urging law enforcement agencies to view the dawn of the next millennium as a catalyst for criminal activities."

The scare story is the paper's lead in Sunday editions, publishing sources tell the DRUDGE REPORT.

MORE..

The paper's David Vise and Lorraine Adams detail a secret FBI 34-page report obtained by the POST:

"The FBI says those most likely to perpetrate violence are either motivated by religious beliefs relating to the Apocalypse or are New World Order conspiracists convinced the United Nations has a secret plan to conquer the world."

The POST reveals, the FBI report warns that says some members of militias and racist groups, including one called "Christian Identity" and another called "Odinism," are acquiring weapons and surveying targets in anticipation of the millennium.

Developing...

-- Meg Moss (meg@y2k.am), October 30, 1999

Answers

There's nothing "secret" about the UN plan to take over the world. They want a world army, a world tax. They want the power for laws they pass to overturn our own. They have recently announced that they are not obligated to recognize the sovereignty of nations if they decide they have a higher purpose in occupying them. What is this if not a bid for world dominance? It's all in the papers, if you bother to read them.

Does my opposition to this make me a "threat?"

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), October 30, 1999.

What do you expect from a morally corrupt and bankrupt government that has tried to place itself ABOVE any notion of a Supreme Being that many of us hold dear?

Nothing like politically-correct NWO types to determine who, IN THEIR MINION MINDS, is a threat to them.

Wonder if they will go as far as the Nazis did, and start shooting priests. Just as a precaution, you understand.

The whole stinking rotten structure is just one catastrophe away from caving in. Hope these bastards are planning on a "warm" welcome in the afterlife.

-- profit of doom (doom@helltopay.ca), October 30, 1999.

OK so I am just a mom with a couple of wonderful kid that I am trying to protect and take care of. I have no other agenda, just to make sure they are ok. My family happens to be Jewish. So now I get to worry about possibly being a target (if this is even the truth) along with everything else....y2k, chemical accidents, nuclear accidents, nuclear war, bio war, chemtrails, school violence, genetically engineered food...............How much weird stuff can one consider at one time. I guess the human mind is limitless. I keep trying to enjoy the beautiful fall and thank God for all my blessings but damn, it is getting hard

-- a mom (how@muchmore.com), October 30, 1999.

If the U.N. is so powerful, why doesn't it collect the dues owed by the United States?

-- Ken Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), October 30, 1999.

set up set up set up set up set up

cover for targeting preppers
duh of course they expect violence and rollover catalyst for criminal activities
but the catalyst will be their own lack, and the criminal activities will burst out of their sheep

-- transparent set-up (cover@target.us), October 30, 1999.

A shitstorm is coming at 100 miles an hour on jan 1. This is the same tactics the nazis used at the start of wwII to demonize the opposition to their aggressive designs. If this was a real threat they would not annonce it. It is being manufactured by a Few sick people in power that want absolute power. Fasist capitalism run amok.

We the people of the United States in Order to form a more perfect Union,establish justice,insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense , promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Poseterity, do ordain and establish this Consititution for the United States of America. Powerful words for the leadership that has forgotten our birthrights. Dont forget them. To all military and law enforcement remember you took an oath to protect the consititution and the american people your boss from all enemies foriegn and domestic even if that means dishonest leadership. Remember God is watching. If the leadership is marching outside the law you have a responsibility to arrest them. Treason against the nation is a pretty serious crime that is not a joke. Do your duty to keep them accountable.

-- y2k aware mike (y2k aware mike @ conservation . com), October 30, 1999.

"New World Order conspiracists convinced the United Nations has a secret plan to conquer the world."

Hmmmm... sounds like they've been reading some of my posts!

Yeah, that's good propaganda by the Feds alright, anything they can do to make us look like the violent ones, so that no one will believe us. Hell, using violence isn't going to do a damn thing to stop the New World Order, they feed on it. All it will take to cripple those bastards is for everyone to wake up, take their rightfully earned money out of their banks, and boycott oil. Their credit ain't gonna work no more if we're holding all the cash. After a couple weeks with no oil revenues they will come crawling to us on their knees and we can tell them to go staight back to hell where they came from. Criminal bastards.

(*V*)

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), October 30, 1999.

Liberty,

I have to agree with Decker on this one. The UN building itself is falling apart because they're out of money. I doubt they could take over the coffee shop down across the street let alone the entire U S of A.

-TECH32-

-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), October 30, 1999.

sorry Tech 32, you've missed the point :

the "UN" has to do NOTHING, so long troops from other countries can be mustered who can be commanded by OUR military officers here

-- Perry Arnett (pjarnett@pdqnet.net), October 30, 1999.

Here's the text of the article in the Washington Post

FBI Warns '2000' May Spark Violence By David A. Vise and Lorraine Adams Washington Post Staff Writers Sunday, October 31, 1999; Page A1

The FBI is warning police chiefs across the country that it has discovered evidence of religious extremists, racists, cults and other groups preparing for violence as New Year's Eve approaches and is urging law enforcement agencies to view the dawn of the next millennium as a catalyst for criminal activities.

The FBI says those most likely to perpetrate violence are motivated either by religious beliefs relating to the Apocalypse, or are New World Order conspiracists convinced the United Nations has a secret plan to conquer the world.

In a 34-page report prepared by the bureau's domestic terrorism unit, the FBI says some members of militias and racist groups, including one called "Christian Identity" and another called "Odinism," are acquiring weapons and surveying targets in anticipation of the millennium.

FBI officials plan to brief law enforcement officials about the millennial threat at a closed-door meeting of the International Association of Chiefs of Police in North Carolina on Tuesday.

The report, a copy of which was obtained by The Washington Post, says that local law enforcement officials need to monitor radical groups for behavior such as stockpiling weapons and food that may indicate they are preparing for violence.

Neil Gallagher, head of the FBI's national security division, said in an interview that the bureau is not predicting that terrorism or violence will occur on or around Jan. 1. Instead, he said the report is aimed at making local law enforcement officials "more sensitive" to the heightened security risks posed by the year 2000. He also said the public needs to be "aware but not scared" of such threats. The report says the risks will increase as Jan. 1 approaches.

"If a cult sells its property and personal effects and purchases guns and explosives, we need to be more concerned about what that cult will do on January 1," Gallagher said.

Computer problems brought on by Y2K glitches could be a triggering event for some groups, the FBI believes. While most people understand that power outages or other problems resulting from Y2K problems can be explained rationally, the report notes that some radical groups or individual extremists may view these events either as signs that the end of the world is near or as part of a larger conspiracy that they must violently oppose, the report says.

"The threat posed by extremists as a result of perceived events associated with the Year 2000 (Y2K) is very real," the FBI report says. "The volatile mix of apocalyptic religious and [New World Order] conspiracy theories may produce violent acts aimed at precipitating the end of the world as prophesied in the Bible."

The report is the result of a nine-month intelligence-gathering effort called "Project Megiddo" by the bureau's domestic terrorism unit, which also relied on information gathered by agents in FBI field offices. The effort is intended to serve as a "strategic assessment" of the potential for domestic terrorism linked directly to the coming millennium, rather than a general assessment of the terrorist environment.

The agents have discovered that in preparation for the new millennium, certain individuals tied to these groups have been acquiring weapons, storing food and clothing, raising funds, procuring safe houses, preparing compounds, surveying potential targets, and recruiting converts to their cause.

In its report, the FBI describes several groups that it says have some members that pose a violent threat. "Christian Identity" followers, comprising loosely knit groups throughout the country, are "ardently opposed to race mixing" and believe that the "white Aryan race is God's chosen race." Christian Identity provides the "unifying theology" for a number of "right-wing" groups that pose a threat, the report says. "Odinists" also adhere to a white supremacist ideology and can be dangerous because many members believe in becoming "martyrs for the cause," the report says.

Fringe members of the Aryan Nations white supremacist group may pose a threat because extremist members will not necessarily adhere to their leader Richard Butler's public renunciation of violence, according to the FBI. In addition, radical U.S. members of a group called the "Black Hebrew Israelites," who are proponents of "an extreme form of black supremacy," also pose a threat.

"Current intelligence from a variety of sources indicates that extreme factions of [Black Hebrew Israelites] groups are preparing for a race war to close the millennium," the FBI report says.

While most of the report focuses on domestic threats, an entire portion is devoted to Jerusalem, where the FBI says an influx of tourists making pilgrimages and millennial cults will add to the danger. The study also says violence in Jerusalem, a holy city for Christians, Jews and Muslims, could lead to problems in the United States and around the world. The FBI report  "Project Megiddo"  is named after a hill in northern Israel that has been the site of many battles. The Hebrew word "Armageddon" means "hill of Megiddo," the study says.

"Israeli officials are extremely concerned that the Temple Mount, an area already seething with tension and distrust among Muslims and Jews, will be the stage for violent encounters between religious zealots," the study says. "Additionally, several religious cults have already made inroads into Israel, apparently in preparation for what they believe to be the endtimes."

The FBI report said potential targets of domestic violence include military facilities; United Nations buildings and personnel; institutions associated with the African American and Jewish communities and other racial and religious minorities; gay men and lesbians; and foreign military units residing on U.S. bases.

"Armed with the urgency of the millennium as a motivating factor, new clandestine groups may conceivably form to engage in violence toward the U.S. government or its citizens," the FBI report warns.

The FBI's Gallagher, who declined to release a copy of the report, said the bureau is in the process of distributing the study to police chiefs and is considering making public a redacted version on its Web site.

Gallagher said it is extremely difficult to make accurate predictions about terrorism. "Acts of violence in commemoration of the millennium are just as likely to occur as not," the FBI report says.

While much of the focus related to the millennium has been linked to the prospect of computer failures, Gallagher intends to advise the police chiefs this week that it is important to prepare now for the unusually wide range of interpretations people may bring to random events occurring on or near Jan. 1, 2000, and the role that the Internet may play in spreading information  or misinformation  rapidly.

"The name 'Megiddo,' " the FBI report begins, "is an apt title for a project that analyzes those who believe the year 2000 will usher in the end of the world and who are willing to perpetrate acts of violence to bring that end about."

-- meg moss (meg@y2k.am), October 30, 1999.

"If the U.N. is so powerful, why doesn't it collect the dues owed by the United States?"

The UN is just one of many operational tools used by the New World Order, but it is not by itself THE New World Order. As far as the NWO bankers are concerned, the UN is the United States and vice versa. They don't care who owes who money, as long as the money sits in THEIR banks, which it does. All of this borrowing and loaning and buying and selling is all being conducted through the same financial organizations, so it doesn't matter what country does what to whoever, as long as the NWO elite make money from the transactions.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), October 30, 1999.

Remember the movie "Top Gun" ?

Maverick leans over to Slider, sniffs and says, Decker you stink!

Deo Vindice!,

BR

-- brother rat (rldabney@usa.net), October 30, 1999.

I am slightly conservative on some issues. What troubles me is the intolerance displayed by many people that call themselves conservative. These people wish to force their values upon us. I am of the Christian faith, but some of us might not be. Most if not all members of the miltias indentify with the conservative movement(only a few of the militias are bad). Since this is so, why is it such a bad thing to have a strong team in place to respond to the biggots?

-- jb smith (joebobsmith@yahoo.com), October 31, 1999.

to: a mom. personal recommendation.. forget all these things. Put God first. Do not worry. it won't change a thing. You have an important job. To look after your children and pray with them and for them If you find your self obsessing about all you read in places like this, stop reading it. Do the best you can to make what plans for extra ordinary needs that you can, spend your effort and energy there instead of worrying or browsing these pages. Do things which won't bother you if not much happens.

please, please do not be offended by this suggestion - turn to the New Testament for comfort and peace. There is much there to guide anyone who will take the time to seek. Several great Jewish authors had a hand in recording historical events and suggestions for daily life. Much of it retells the scripture you undoubtedly know well and speaks highly of the faith of your fathers. If uncomfortable with that, then at least return to stories in OT about The God cared for His people for centuries when they placed their trust in Him and how things went when they did not. We serve the same God. We believe differently in the Son. I have to because God's Grace is extended to the Gentiles thru Christ. I have no hope without Him.

As for all the rumors you hear, they will always be with us. They always have been, it's just that we can hear, repeat and send them to more people, faster, than ever before. They can be made up with the greatest of ease.

Is the end near? God only knows, I believe it is not so long as one man predicts it. For it will come as a thief in the night. Will there be some changes, difficulties, and so on. probably so. Will there be some people who take advantage of the situation to create trouble for others? probably so. I will pray for you and your children, like I do for mine. Be still and know that He is God. It's the first and best thing to do.

-- toptxs (toptxs1@dallas.net), October 31, 1999.

The concerns expressed here confuse me.

First, there really are violent groups in the US. Always have been. Isn't it the *job* of the FBI to identify such groups, and alert police departments to be aware of them? Sure, the FBI might be a bit overcautious in this respect and might be exaggerating the problem such groups may represent, but it's best for law enforcement agencies to err on the side of caution as a matter of policy. Better to be prepared for what doesn't happen, than to be taken by surprise by what does happen.

But what does this have to do with the NWO or a UN takeover or foreign troops or some mysterious "they" who plan to do awful things to us for reasons never mentioned? If anything, such responses only reinforce the credibility of the FBI's concerns. Apparently there really are potentially violent, fanatical people for whom reality is irrelevant. A sobering thought.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), October 31, 1999.

Flint,

You've stated your questions well, and they are reasonable.

Here are a few answers for you:

You write: "First, there really are violent groups in the US."

Correct. The question is, how much of a threat are they really? Do they warrant federal action, or can the local police handle them?

I think you'll find, if you care to look into it, that agent provocateurs (sp?) are involved in many of these groups. This latter fact was well known during the McCarthy era, when a film called "I was a Communist for the FBI" came out, and won an ocsar, revealing that many of the "international communist conspirators" drummed up by J. Edgar Hoover were merely groups of harmless misfits stoked into frenzy, and even populated, by the FBI itself.

To get a sense for how this sort of covert action works, there are a number of references I could give, just start a new thread called "Conspiracies theories v. conspiracy facts" or something to that effect, and I'll give some links, etc.

"Isn't it the *job* of the FBI to identify such groups, and alert police departments to be aware of them?"

Yes, and it is a totally appropriate role for them merely to notify. However, I really couldn't say much for any man or woman who, in light of recent events, thinks "notification" is the furthest extent of the FBI's intention. Emails are not tanks, faxes are not pyrotechic projectiles. These may be subtle distinctions, but it is important to keep them in mind.

"Sure, the FBI might be a bit overcautious in this respect and might be exaggerating the problem such groups may represent, but it's best for law enforcement agencies to err on the side of caution as a matter of policy."

You are far more pious than I care to be about the FBI's "caution." Look into the nature of the HRT (Hostage rescue team), and it should become clearer very quickly that the community's safety is not of concern in most of these "Operations."

"Better to be prepared for what doesn't happen, than to be taken by surprise by what does happen."

Couldn't have said it better myself.

"But what does this have to do with the NWO or a UN takeover or foreign troops or some mysterious "they" who plan to do awful things to us for reasons never mentioned?"

There really is not much mystery about who holds effective control over most of the world's governments. To pick an example from recent events, the recent coup in Pakistan was a direct result of economic hardships imposed by IMF restrictions on the economy. The recent mass-killing of East Timorese is an *in*-direct result of our nation's Central Intelligence Agency training death squads in Indonesia (in 1967 we even compiled "death lists" for these death squads; of course they were a little too cautious there as well, killing 120,000 instead of the 5 or 6 thousand listed).

Those are two incidents which appear to be organic, independent, domestic political events to the majority of people gauging them. I've really just picked these incidents virtually at random, and hope you'll not just dismiss them as "conspiracy theory," merely because the notion seems implausible that they are intimately related to globalist institutions, what George Bush articulated as the "New World Order."

It is my own feeling that such incidents, and I include Operation Meddino, or whatever the FBI is calling it, a part of a larger strategy, or system of interlocking strategies, on the part of those financial, and corporate institutions which own World Bank, World Trade Organization, Central Intelligence, Federal Reserve, as well as the corporations which receive material, political, even covert military assistance by these agencies.

Am I saying that "NWO" as Bush called it, is some monolithic, all- controling, omniscient, invisible group of back-room meeting men? Nope. Just a network of powerful people working very very hard to establish and operate powerful institutions, and influence policy. Anyone who looks into WTO, IMF, UN, the Fed, IRS, CIA, and doesn't see the interconnections should be properly regarded as weak-minded. Granted, many who do see the connections are also weak-minded and are only correct by accident, but that does not excuse the rationale that it is somehow better to err on the side of ignorance.

It's just that simple.

"If anything, such responses only reinforce the credibility of the FBI's concerns."

So the FBI has probable cause to detain and/or question and/or surveil me for my seeing things the way I do? For example, I see the CIA-led coup in Guatemala in 1954 as a part of a larger strategy to aid large corporations and undermine national sovereignty. And I see a similar rationale and strategy at work in "domestic enemy" campaigns such as convincing people that all people who are concerned about y2k are "communists," oh wait, we're done scaring people with that one, lets try "cyberterrorist doomonger Christian cult patriot militia members."

Friend, I don't even own a gun. And you think I, and people whose analysis closely mirrors mine are a legitimate target of federal law enforcement?!

That is perfectly frightening.

"Apparently there really are potentially violent, fanatical people for whom reality is irrelevant. A sobering thought."

Your words suggest that you are far from sober in your thinking.

I hope you'll rethink your deJagerist "enemy of the state" approach, in your reasonable search for answers in how people conceive of the nature of New World Order. Such an approach demonizes the legitimate concerns shared by many Americans, and is unworthy of thoughtful people such as yourself.

Best,

sean

-- concerned about the lack of understanding on both sides (when_does@theory.become_acknowledged_as_fact), October 31, 1999.

Flint is not this stupid or uninformed. He knows what side his bread is buttered on. He's just playing his part.

Here is some information on the history of globalism:

http://www.engr.utexas.edu/cofe/governance/default.htm

Here's more info from some people who are aware, and doing something about it:

http://www.usasurvival.org/

If you go to the first link, you will see that the UN is just one instrument. In time it will be replaced by a new front. There is the Royal Institute on International Affairs, the WTO, the Bank of International Settlements, the Council on Foreign Relations, the Trilateral Commission, the Bilderbergs, the Club of Rome... all these are used by the power of global money. It's not about this group, organization or ideology. Money pits all these against eachother to achieve it's aims.

These sites will tell you what you need to know. Download this information, because we're not going to have an internet much longer. As you can see, it causes panic; once it crashes, it will be reintroduced with the restraints that would have been designed into it in the first place, had it's impact been anticipated.

ps for "a mom": Don't worry about this. Worry doesn't help. If you can't deal with it, that's okay. Raise your kids to be strong, and to do the right thing. If the world is saved from powermad freaks, it will be because enough mothers did this.

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), October 31, 1999.

Jeeesh, up until now I thought Flint was a pretty smart guy. It looks like he is now in some kind of denial or something. He is buying this propaganda exactly like they want him to, branding the conspiracists as a violent threat against the FBI.

I do not recall any previous incidents of NWO conspiracy theorists carrying out violent attacks, do you Flint?

The NWO have been manipulating the world for a long time now Flint, but you appear to be very naive in this area. I would suggest you do your homework before you go around calling people fanatics with no basis in reality.

(*V*)

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), October 31, 1999.

From the Wash. Post article: "The FBI report  "Project Megiddo"  is named after a hill in northern Israel that has been the site of many battles. The Hebrew word "Armageddon" means "hill of Megiddo," the study says... "The name 'Megiddo,' " the FBI report begins, "is an apt title for a project that analyzes those who believe the year 2000 will usher in the end of the world and who are willing to perpetrate acts of violence to bring that end about."

Then a search for "Megiddo" brought this tidbit :

Site of epic battles that decided the fate of western Asia, it became the Egyptians first step to empire in the 15th century B.C.E., when Pharaoh Tutmoses III conquered the Canaan. Here was the center of Solomons administration in the north; here, too, the staging point for Assyrias deportation of the people of the Northern Kingdom of Israel.

Megiddo, the only site in Israel mentioned by every great power in the ancient Near East, appears in the New Testament as Armageddon, location of the millennial battle between the forces of good and evil. Small wonder, then, that it inspired James Micheners The Source.

From another site:

"This ancient town was destroyed so many times that its name became synonymous with war and destruction... Megiddo lies in a strategic position overlooking the Jezreel Valley. Thutmose III (1504-1450 BC) of Egypt noting its military importance said, "the capture of Megiddo is the capture of 1,000 towns." In Biblical times, Har-Megeddo meaning the mountain of Megiddo, was the on the crossroads and of strategic importance."

The WP article says: "that local law enforcement officials need to monitor radical groups for behavior such as stockpiling weapons and food that may indicate they are preparing for violence."

So... the FBI picked the name, picked the time, identified the enemy (all us Costco/Sams/Walmart shoppers) and we are the conspirationists who believe in a NWO takeover? Sheese!!!

We are guilty of being awake.

-- Linda (lwmb@psln.com), October 31, 1999.

Sorry. Bold off.

-- Linda (lwmb@psln.com), October 31, 1999.

onoff (how do you get it off?)

-- Linda (lwmb@psln.com), October 31, 1999.

Opps!

"Sure, the FBI might be a bit overcautious in this respect and might be exaggerating the problem such groups may represent, but it's best for law enforcement agencies to err on the side of caution as a matter of policy. Better to be prepared for what doesn't happen, than to be taken by surprise by what does happen."

The problem here is that the law enforcement agencies error on the side of caution have left black marks across the history of American law enforcement. Can you say "Waco," Flint? How about "Ruby Ridge?"

Talk to me about error on the side of caution that kills a mother holding a child in her arms, or that is responsible for the death of 30 some children under the age of 17.

When the "reasonable" question is set into the context of known behavior on the part of the FBI, then the question becomes unreasonable.

"Apparently there really are potentially violent, fanatical people for whom reality is irrelevant. A sobering thought."

Yes, it is. Apparently some of them have even have employment as FBI snipers. Again, the questions raised are only reasonable if the propensity for violence has been constrained to one side of the equation.

Regards,

-- don't (care@totell.yhou), October 31, 1999.

At long last, you have uncovered our glorious plan to take over the entire world using nothing but the armies of Luxumborg, Lichtenstein, Monaco, and the Vatican City Navy. We are a group of powerful witches and Jews, backed by 3M, Lego, and the Del Monte corporation, who's goal is to enslave humanity through addiction to sticky pads and canned tomatoes. I am telling you all this because you will never get a chance to go to the media- even now, this message is being used to scan your eyeballs and retinal cavities in order to implant anti Day Light Savings Time messages into your brain, directly onto the synapses that contain your suspicious of the UN and the NWO.

This bulletin board will self-destruct in three minues.

FNORD!

-- Horst Rothchild (illuminati@fnord.zurich.ch), October 31, 1999.

Some of the people in the militia movement are biggots and potential terrorists. It is also a fact that many of those that identify with the militia movement are right wing fudamentalists. It is also a fact that some of this group hope for the downfall of our government. Given these things that are common knowledge, why should they not be watched? We do have a right to be protected. After all, what would you consider Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols? Don't even try to say their trial was a sham, we've been there and done that. We all know where they stood. I think its time to stand up to these people like Prescott Bush stood up to McCarthy in the 1950's. He told him they were wrong and we are telling the biggots now that they are wrong.

-- jb smith (joebobsmith@yahoo.com), October 31, 1999.

I find this an interesting piece to have on the top right corner of my Sunday newspaper front page. Its the first Sunday after daylight savings time ends, people have lots of time to read......

People are asked to focus on how folks with dangerous tendancies like storing food and clothes are the saboteurs lurking to harm us. Christians who believe there will be an End ( and this has been a belief of Christianity for 2000 years) to the world are likewise suspect. It is clearly stated in the Bible that no one but God knows when that will be.

Anyhow, I am feeling like a climate of distrust is being sown, are we being set up to be seen as dangerous terrorists? Hopefully, sanity will prevail, but this article does not make me happy.

-- seraphima (seraphima@aol.com), October 31, 1999.

While I'm not an authority on law enforcement procedures, I think anyone can see that there are tradeoffs to be made.

First, it's necessary to collect and interpret information. If there any one thing this forum makes clear, it's that the same information can be interpreted wildly differently by different people. And as those of us trying to prepare are aware, it's hard to work with incomplete information, but sometimes you just have to anyway.

Second, it's necessary for effective law enforcement to act on that possibly incomplete and possibly incorrectly interpreted information in a timely manner. Otherwise, all you end up doing is learning what you *should* have done while you had the chance.

Like it or not, the result is that the more agressive you are, the more likely you are to BOTH arrest real dangers in time, AND target innocent people by mistake. Yes, yes, the goal is to prevent ALL the bad guys from causing trouble/committing crimes, while inconveniencing NONE of the good guys. This goal cannot be achieved in practice, though it should never be forgotten either.

So the question becomes, how agressive should your efforts be? What procedures, imperfect by nature, will maximize the tuna catch while minimizing the dolphin kill? Focusing exclusively on the FBI's mistakes while ignoring their successes leads to an unbalanced picture. How many Waco's *didn't* happen because the FBI got it right? Well, those don't get any airplay.

As far as I can see, speculations about the IMF, World Bank, CIA, international politics, government destabilization, etc. are another topic. Associating my safety from potential nutballs come rollover with what the CIA did in 1954 is stretching highly speculative relationships FAR past the breaking point.

Stockpiling preparations is perfectly legal. Nobody is saying otherwise. Planning to rob others of their stockpiles is NOT legal, and should be stopped.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), October 31, 1999.

>Like it or not, the result is that the more agressive you are, the more likely you are to BOTH arrest real dangers in time, AND target innocent people by mistake. Yes, yes, the goal is to prevent ALL the bad guys from causing trouble/committing crimes, while inconveniencing NONE of the good guys. This goal cannot be achieved in practice, though it should never be forgotten either. So the question becomes, how agressive should your efforts be? What procedures, imperfect by nature, will maximize the tuna catch while minimizing the dolphin kill?

The Fourth Amendment, underwritten by the Second Amendment, makes this yammering unneccesary. Our Constitution makes it CRYSTAL CLEAR what the boundaries of law enforcement are in this regard. The balance has been struck for them, BY THE SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND. We are to be secure in our persons and effects, and these may not be taken without a warrant describing the persons and objects to be removed. This warrant can only be signed on probable cause of criminal wrongdoing, NOT MERE SUSPICION, and certainly not in some "sweep" operation to arrest them all and let god sort them out. Your hemming and hawing, as if it were some kind of gray area that our brave lawmen must negotiate on their own, makes me sick. You are an apologist for tyranny, for the subversion of our Constitutional Republic.

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), October 31, 1999.

And Flint, your PEOPLE = DOLPHINS (who can be killed in certain acceptably low numbers to prevent crimes that may or may not occur in the future) analogy, together with your "accentuate the positive" response to Waco, shows you up for the facist you are. It completely ignores the egregious, willfull trampling of common decency and American law that happened at Waco, and the outrage of the FBI targeting people for their Y2k preparations. Here's one of your expendible "dolphins," you mild-mannered advocate for murder:

http://www.accessone.com/~rivero/POLITICS/WACO/curledchild.jpg

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), October 31, 1999.