Charles Reuben has popped in at the local Y2k forum in Milwaukee (Mr. Reuben has chosen the handle "buytexas"). Anyone is free to chime in. Feel free to discredit Mr. Reuben if you like, or to add your $.02. Frankly, I don't care to get involved in personal attacks. I choose to stick to posting factual info. The forum is local in nature, but anyone is obviously free to chime in.

-- Night Owl (wh@t.next), October 30, 1999

Answers

Who gives a hoot?

-- Randolph (dinosaur@williams-net.com), October 30, 1999.

...Frankly, I don't care to get involved in personal attacks so therefore I've come to your forum in an attempt to recruit as many of you as I can to fight my battle for me. --Mr. Night Owl

Sheeesh! Typical Packer fan

-- CD (not@here.com), October 30, 1999.

I have no desire to "do battle" with Mr. Reuben, or anyone else. The war of words is, frankly, inane. I choose the high road. I post factual information. Period. Anyone who wishes to debate facts and issues with me is more than welcome to do so. No one at the local forum is willing to do so; they choose to attack me instead. So be it.

I think it's fair to expose Mr. Reuben for his previous behavior, however. With that in mind, I ask that anyone who has a link to a previous thread re: Mr. Reuben to post it here or at the MJS forum. Let others see what Mr. Reuben is about, and judge for themselves.

-- Night Owl (tired of silly g@m.es), October 30, 1999.

...Frankly, I don't care to get involved in personal attacks so therefore I have returned once more to ask for help in locating an archived thread chock-full of personal attacks aimed at Charles Reuben. I would also like to ask that *you* post it on the Milwaukee forum so that I can continue to maintain my moral high-road status. Thank you in advance for fighting my fight for me, --Mr. Night Owl

Does not the word hypocrite come to mind here Night Owl?

-- CD (not@here.com), October 30, 1999.

Thanks for the head's up, I'll take a look.

-- Robin (Hood@Loxley.com), October 30, 1999.

Mr. Reuben accuses me, and, by extension, all Y2k "pessimists", of plant ing extremist propaganda". I will certainly defend myself against such nonsensical charges.

When I am personally attacked, I do not respond in kind. However, I think it's fair for others who may not be familiar with Mr. Reuben to be able to have information available as to who the source is.

Hypocritical? If you choose to believe so, so be it.

-- Night Owl (Go P@ack.go), October 30, 1999.

Night Owl

As CPR doesn't have the guts to post on this forum (by name?) I think it is entirely unfair to attack him with no provication.

He posts regularly on a few forums so his veiws are well known if folks want to take a look.

Mind you I do feel sorry for the folks on the other forum. That just looks like spamming to me.

-- Brian (imager@home.com), October 30, 1999.

Night Owl

On taking another look on that forum CPR is being totally ignored. No doubt he will start talking to himself there in short order.

*VBG*

-- Brian (imager@home.com), October 30, 1999.

As CPR doesn't have the guts to post on this forum (by name?) I think it is entirely unfair to attack him with no provication.

Et Tu Brian?

-- CD (not@here.com), October 30, 1999.

He is being ignored only because it's the weekend. The forum typically takes a weekend break. Come Monday morning, the activity will predictably pick up, and the local Y2k zoo will be back in business. Everyone there will welcome Mr. Reuben as the voice of reason and sanity, and resume their rants, while entirely ignoring every single factual post I've left for their perusal.

-- Night Owl (Cowboys@suck.cpr), October 30, 1999.

Greetings from one citizen in Dallas.

Since this is mostly a local board, I hesitate to post here but since your Night Fowl tried to solicit others from online extremist forums, I'm taking the liberty of trying to add some light to the darkness of the FOWL SPAM.

A more balanced view of the reasons for the Y2k debate can be found elsewhere but one good source to remind ourselves that there is ANOTHER in charge at all times is:

http://www.ccmag.com (click on the Y2k area). Steve Hewitt the Editor, has made an effort to turn the tide in the Religious Right and is singlehandedly responsible for much of the shift (especially with respect to people like John Ankerberg and Dr. Falwell).

Mr. Hewitt stands ready to debate Michael Hyatt ANYWHERE and ANY TIME. Hyatt manages to avoid such confrontations when possible.

HEWITT IS ONLY ONE OF MANY NOW.

y credentials can be found at:

http://wwww.russkelly.com/experts.html or some recent views at: http://www.russkelly.com/experts.html#Reuben

For better or worse, some people actually think I'm an "expert" in Y2k and perhaps with respect to EXTREMISTS, I am. The term "expert" in Y2k has little meaning.

Like many others who have been involved in Y2k for years (I started in early 1996), I have revised my opinion of the dangers therein down from 8.0/10.0 to only .5. (In honor of the 9/9/99 problem I was at .9999 but have moved lower.)

Now, I no longer think the extremists will be a problem. AMERICANS ALWAYS MANAGE THEIR PROBLEMS WITHOUT HYSTERIA (except in sports).

For over 6 months I have monitored the activity level on the Y2k forum of your local newspaper.

It is to the credit of the people of Wisconsin (not withstanding those people who try to play football in Green Bay), that YOU REJECT THE EXTREMIST PROPAGANDA planted here mostly by Mr. Hartsman and a few (very few) others.

This is TYPICAL of most Y2k forums that have not been "seized" by extremist elements and bodes well for the Roll over into 2000.

PEOPLE OF THE US WILL NOT PANIC.

The "panicking" is being done now by a few unfortunate types who have been unduly influenced by a massive propaganda effort combined with the usual HYPE involved to sell products associated with a Large BUSINESS/TECHNICAL PROBLEM.

One by one, AMERICANS of all types have stood up to the FRUITCAKES OF Y2k and SAID NO MORE!!!

Its nice to see that even people obsessed with cheese are doing the same thing.

I wish you all well (but not on the football field).

Best,

Charlie Reuben buytexas@swbell.net

-- the wacko (is@this.site), October 30, 1999.

He's right--I keep forgetting to buy fruitcake. But I wonder where to order it now. (I'm one of the rare few who like the stuff...)

-- Mara (MaraWayne@aol.com), October 30, 1999.

After perusing that other forum I have to wonder, Mr. Night Owl, are you just a hypocrite or with your smarmy, wormy talk are you also (to use an archaic phrase) a little pussy too? Don't you have any valid thoughts of your own to contribute?

CPR doesn't post over here and doesn't make make much sense anyway, but right or wrong, he has advanced beyond hiding behind the cut and paste buttons. You, however, contribute nothing, which is probably why that other forum makes mention of your inability to keep a job.

Get a life.

-- Roger (Pecosroger@netscape.net), October 30, 1999.

Hipocracy you wouldn't believe CD. Went there and read CEEPER's oh so gentle posts. Didn't bust him except to post the URL for deBUNGy's and mention his understandably lower case handle.

-- Carlos (riffraff1@cybertime.net), October 30, 1999.

I'm not into flaming anyone, nor discrediting anyone Night Owl. The sides have been chosen, the line is drawn. I really don't care what CPR or any other polly thinks or what he/she is bellowing out. If people have done their research and figured it out for themselves then they will choose the right way for them. It's too late anyway for any kind of significant preps for someone who has just become a GI, they are a goner.

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), October 30, 1999.

Guess who knows: "The Fear of the Lord is the beginning of all wisdom"??? Guess who also knows: "FEAR of the "UNKNOWN" SELLS"???? GARY NORTH, ED YOURDONEFOR, Chuck MISSLER, Karen Anderson, Jim Lord, Pat Robertson, Y2k Weatherman, Y2knet.com's Craig Smith, Y2knewswire's all have something to sell to PEOPLE MOTIVATED BY FEAR OF THE UNKNOWN.

------>>> FEAR SELLS <<<------- fear of loss: SELLS. Fear of "disruptions of normal life" SELLS.

This Web Site and forum address one issue: the IMPACT OF FEARMONGER GARY NORTH. I claim as does the owner of the site and dozens of other here that GARY NORTH IS THE CENTER OF A LARGE INDUSTRY THAT SELLS>>>>>>>> Y2k FEAR.

IT IS A LIE..to suggest that I am either a "pollyanna" or dismiss Y2k impacts. I DEAL WITH REALITY. NOT GUESS WORK FROM "Snake Oil Pusher as one Analyst claims)... LIKE NORTH OR YOURDONEFOR (who sold an International reputation in I.T/I.S. for a mess of porridge from the Y2k CRISIS).

I never claimed there would be no Y2k effects from failed programs of sloppy Management.

NO REASONABLE PERSON WOULD but unlike others I see no reason to by "speculations" and "what ifs" and "maybes" as FACT from VENDORS OF FEAR OR VENDORS OF SERVICES WHO ARE "MAKING A Y2k BUCK" (while...TERRIFYING INNOCENT PEOPLE).

In fact, you will see that I am way up on the pessism scale at Russ Kelly's Expert Page if you bother to click through. http://www.russkelly.com There you will see all the "names in Y2k". I instructed Russ to change my ranking of the severity of Y2k to show that NORTH AND NORTH DRIVEN HYSTERIA NOW REPRESENT OVER 30% of the overal problem. IF PEOPLE PANIC,,,,,,,,then it is true that we are done for. IT WILL NOT HAPPEN. I count on the "Common Sense of the American People". NOT DC, NOT THE POLITICIANS BUT,,,nice ordinary people who say, well we have to face this problem and "get through" whatever will have to be. BY SUMMER OF NEXT YEAR, we will KNOW MOST OF THE PROBLEMS.

NOW,,,we know little of what will be. I CONSIDER the TERRORIST THREAT ..from extremist like Bin Laden to be a far greater threat to us all. AND THAT COULD HAPPEN TONIGHT. NOW GO CHANGE YOUR UNDERWEAR AFTER YOU REMEMBER THEY HAVE ALREADY KILLED AMERICANS. ONE BOMB, ONE BRIDGE AT THE WRONG TIME AND HUNDREDS EVEN THOUSANDS COULD DIE.

WE KNOW THAT. DO WE PANIC OVER THAT WHICH IS TRULY REAL??? DO YOU NOT THINK IT POSSIBLE THAT 20 TEAMS OF 3 PEOPLE EACH COULD NOT ASSEMBLE A BOMB IN 20 DIFFERENT AREAS AND THEN REALLY CAUSE AN "INFRASTRUCTURE PROBLEM"?????

PEOPLE WORRY ABOUT A ""KNOWN,,,TRULY KNOWN DATE" FOR y2K. WHAT ABOUT ,,,,,,,,THE UNKNOWN FROM BIN LADEN???? TONIGHT, TOMORROW AND FOR THE REST OF THE DAYS HE IS ALIVE???

And Gary NORTH from the hills of the Ozarks writes about something 12 months in the future that has over a million programmers and professionals working on it???

Y2K FEAR IS..........HYPE. NORTH IS THE HEAD RINGMASTER OF A HYPE CIRCUS.

AND PEOPLE STAND INLINE TO GO TO HIS SHOW, BUY HIS COTTON CANDY IDEAS AND THEN SPEW THEM BACK TO OTHERS TO REPEAT OVER AND OVER ONLINE UNTIL IT GETS BACK TO AN OUT CIRCLE THAT DOES NOT KNOW WHERE IT IS ALL...."COMING FROM".

READ: "THE BIG BAD WOLF POST". THEN,,,,TELL ME ITS NOT ALL GARY AND THE ONLINE FEAR MONGERS PEDDLING HYSTERIA.

NOTE....I use the word CRISIS. THERE ARE TWO Y2k Crises: 1. the Computer / business problem from the Date Code Problem and

2. the Crisis in the confidence in people who are working on the problem. For what ever there reasons, both NORTH and YOURDONEFOR have constantly and incessently tried to peddle the IDEA THAT,,,,Y2k problems ...COULD NOT BE SOLVED. THAT FLIES IN THE FACE OF REASON. ALL MAN MADE PROBLEMS CAN BE SOLVED. END of story. IF WE BREAK IT WE CAN FIX IT.

NORTH would have you believe that GOD himself would prefer we did not fix the problem. To GN, MAN IS WEAK AND FRAILABLE AND Y2k is GOD's VENGENCE ON HIS SINFUL CREATURES.

YOURDONEFOR DISTORTS THE TRUTH,,, OPENLY WHEN HE KNOWS THAT PROBLEMS ARE BEING FIXED. HE WRITES IN CW THAT "MANY WON"T MAKE IT" BUT.........never says "HOW MANY". Two is a couple and three is a crowd and more that that is 'many'. So when it is over, and EY's scenarios to NOT HAPPEN, he will claim that he and his prodding and the prodding of many "got the job done". HE AND OTHERS will not address MY CHARGES THAT HE,,,,and NORTH ARE NOW....part of the PROBLEM.

I never claimed there would be no Y2k effects from failed programs of sloppy Management. In fact, you will see that I am way up on the pessism scale at Russ Kelly's Expert Page if you bother to click through. http://www.russkelly.com

GO AND LOOK AT THESE THEN RETURN: http://www.erols.com/steve451/doom.htmp (Steve Davis' site and read STEVE"s IMPACT PAGES.

or: a more thorough analysis: ON GARY NORTH AND Y2K:

http://www.serve.com/thibodep/cr/y2k.htm

You will find that in conjuction with Big Fat Idiot, they give you a picture into how the entire DIALOG about Y2k has been taken away from COMPUTER PROFESSIONALS and placed into the Political and Religious arenas by GARY NORTH AND ED YOURDONEFORE and their SPORES.

NOBODY CLAIMS...least of all myself, that there will NOT be serious problems in the rollover or before. However, not one single one of the Knowledgeable Y2k I.T. PROFESSIONALS except Yourdonefor are claiming that we now have the makings of an International Catastrophe.

GARTNER, De Jager, William Ulrich, Ian Hayes, Kappelman, Koskinen, the heads of major Banks and Corporations and Utilities issue statement after statement that things are getting better, the WORK is being done and STILL, the FEAR MONGERS continue on.

"They are LYING". They are distorting the truth. They are not telling the SEC all the "facts". Embedded chips will end the world. 'PREPARE" they BELCH online.

YET.......not one single one of them including YOURDONEFOR or NORTH,,,will NAME NAMES. They hint, they imply, North throws in a "wise crack" like: "they're working on it of course". ALL TO INCREASE THE DOUBT AND FEAR.

WHY,,,,because,,,EACH AND EVERYONE OF THEM,,,,HAS SOMETHING TO SELL, PEDDLE OR ADVOCATE. AND THE BIGGEST LIAR OF ALL IS GARY NORTH.

YES, GARY "I don't SELL anything on my web site" NORTH. But GARY NORTH DOES SELL SOMETHING ON HIS WEB SITE: FEAR. FEAR to cause hysteria and panic so that in the resulting BANK RUNS and BANK CRASHES he can singlehandedly bring the system down and replace it with HIS CHURCH STATE.

Is that CLEAR??

THE,,,,,,,,,FACTS.....YOU SEEK..ARE OUT THERE. BUY THEM FROM DE jAGER OR ZDY2K OR THE REPUTABLE PEOPLE. OR DON'T BUY THEM BUT JUDGE FOR YOURSELF.

IF YOU SHOP....AT THE NORTH HALL OF SCARY GARY,,,,YOU HAVE TO TAKE.......HIS "SPIN".....WITH YOU WHEN YOU LEAVE. YOU MAY THINK YOU CAN "AVOID IT" BY "CLICKING THROUGH"........UNTIL....the day comes when you think, "I WONDER WHAT GARY THINKS ABOUT THAT and you look at his comments...unarmed with what "GARY NORTH IS A BIG FAT IDIOT" PROVIDES,,,,,WHY GARY NORTH DOES WHAT HE DOES. You can get it elswhere but its all here in one place on the site's HOME PAGE. Two other sites to help are :

I can prove that because we know how the "Circle of Fear' began to expand after Gary turned his web site on. We know he openly solicted Yourdonefor and have Gary's own emails to ME, bragging about it. Later, he claimed hie "helped EY" with the book, on the web site and in his newsletters. Along the way in Spring of 1998, came the Misslers and the Y2k Weatherman. Karen Anderson admitted in an interview that she had come to Texas to work for Gary North. She is "Dear Karen" though she plays down the North connection. She uses....Ed Yourdonefor's LINKS as her "links page". One by one, it began to roll out just like A MARKTING ROLL OUT NATIONALLY FOR SOAP.

NEXT, came the Jim Lords and the Gold Coin Dealer: Craig Smith with www.y2knet.com.

EACH AND EVERYONE OF THESE PEOPLE CONSTANTLY REPEAT THE SAME MANTRAS WITH THEIR OWN "SPINS". IN MINUTES, A LINK FROM NORTH'S SITE WILL HIT EITHER THE "WEATHERMAN", Y2knet.com, Y2knewswire and the rest of them including the repulsive Roy Huff who I debunked on line months ago as an Extremist.

Unlike others who play fast and loose with facts, I can prove what I say. I DEFY GARY NORTH AND THE REST OF THEM TO SUE ME IF ONE SINGLE WORD I WRITE IS IN ERROR.

IN ONE YEAR, NO ONE (except one loose cannon in the U.K.) has ever even hinted he would do so.

People buy on fear and greed. Ask any stock broker. All sales are emotion and then people 'justify or rationalize' their purchases.

I have been writing and speaking about that for over a year. In the beginning there were only two or three people who believed Paul Thibodeau, Steve Davis and myself. By choice, I never built a web site to debunk NORTH.

I did not build that web site because I am a Techie and a varifiable expert. Gary North is not. Ed Yourdonefor sprung from the limbs (rear end of them) of the Gary Dragon and published his first book "for the public to help them deal with Y2k problems'. It hit the stands by Dec. 1997. It was a "cut and paste" not only of the facts/opinions of North's web site but also the same "what ifs" that we see daily now on Gary, c.s.y2k and the rest of the sites that have been SEIZED by like minded people.

The book was WRITTEN FOR MONEY. He has sold 150,000 copies (printed actually) and the "book" is a sloppy collection of the same sort of thing people now post ALL OVER THE WEB and try to post here.

AGAIN....I never claimed there would be no Y2k effects from failed programs of sloppy Management. In fact, you will see that I am way up on the pessism scale at Russ Kelly's Expert Page if you bother to click through. http://www.russkelly.com .

2. The owner of this site does not claim that either. He has a special note... on his home page for people like you. Go read the page and see which note.... applies to you.

CPR

-- wackos (are@duhbunkie.site), October 30, 1999.

Roger:

I choose to contribute in the way I feel is most appropriate: present facts with minimal "doomer spin" (or any other, for that matter). I am seeking truth. My views are pessimistic, but far from extremist, but are largely irrelevant. I do my homework, though, and have a pretty good grasp of issues.

I've also worked on two Y2k projects in the past 2 years. By nature, those jobs are temporary in nature. My employment history is unblemished and irrelevant, but if you need to grasp at straws, be my guest.

Do I try to persuade others? Sure. Do I do so with harsh, vitriolic, personal attacks? No.

-- Night Owl (I'm@pea.ce), October 30, 1999.

As CPR doesn't have the guts to post on this forum (by name?) I think it is entirely unfair to attack him with no provication.

Et Tu Brian?

-- CD (not@here.com), October 30, 1999.

CD

If you would like to explain what that means in plain english I would like to respond. To obscure.

He would know who I am.

Keep your liners dry

-- Brian (imager@home.com), October 31, 1999.

To expand on that

CPR doesn't know the cold, I do.

If he wants to talk to me, he know where I am.

Y2K happens during the winter. That is not where he happens to be.

He has no idea.

Keep your liners dry

-- Brian (imager@home.com), October 31, 1999.

i have only one thing to contribute..... if y2k is NOT the main danger... but PANIC is.... then why are we bothering to save systems that are so fragile, and corrupt that a bank run can destroy them? I mean geez, panic will not destroy the US. If there is a bank run, and y2k is a joke, we can pick up the financial pieces, lift the moratorium on withdrawls and watch the market surge back up as embarrasses doomer put their money back in... but a bank run is NOT TEOTWAWKI get a life... but if NY should lose water and power for a mmonth or two... well... "etc" comes to mind... so stop with the "panic is our #1 enemy" routine ok?

-- jeremiah (braponspdetroit@hotmail.com), October 31, 1999.

Interesting that cpr foams at the mouth as badly as any doomer I've ever read.

Time will tell who is right and who is wrong, til then, happy rabies Chuck.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), October 31, 1999.

Humm.

Cpr does sound like hes still frothing at the mouth. And he sounds twisted with his hatred.

Is this the writing style of a rational human being?

Doubtful.

Yes, there is a lot of fear out there. It does not lessen the evolving truth of Y2K, nor *some* people trying to sort through the chaff.

Diane

To wit...

IEEE Y2K Chairman's Personal, Pessimistic Take on Y2K and Yourdon's End Game Paper

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 001fqh

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), October 31, 1999.

Sounds like this CPR dude has more rationale in his little finger than most brain-washed doomers.

I'll need to go look up some more of his writings...could be there is more than meets the eye about "debunkers".

-- ha (ha@ha.ha), November 01, 1999.