I realize this topic is on numerous threads in one form or another, but since the topic is so crucial , I would like your latest thoughts on the following question:

What is to be done about neighbors with whom you have been friendly, perhaps even very close, who don't prepare and show up at your door?

The real difficulty, and probably the most difficult point of all, is that once you start giving food away, when and how do you draw the line and stop?

Thank you.

-- eve (123@4567.com), October 26, 1999

Answers

I live on top of a small mountain. There are about 20 people up here scattered on about 250 acres, 3 of which I own. (Actually NorWest Financial 8-C ) Over a two month period during late 98, I put packages of Y2K materials, including Y@KCPR, water info, food info, etc., on their doors in the middle of the night. I then repeated the process later.

To date, not one of them has shown any signs of preparation AT ALL!

I plan on having some extras for their children. I wil feed the kids, on the condition that I am allowed to do so at my discretion. The adults are on their own. They were warned.

End of discussion.

I will fight confiscation to the death, which I will make clear to them if and when the time comes. They don't know were the misc caches are, so they can look at their hearts content. The supplies at the house proper are minimal, i.e., they MIGHT survive 30 days on said supplies, depending on their family size.

Kook

-- Y2Kook (Y2Kook@usa.net), October 26, 1999.

Most will probably find the cost of confiscating my supplies too high.We all must die sometime,but to those spoiled brat americans of convenience and expectation a hard lesson is to be learned.There are worse deaths than to fall standing up for one's self and one's beliefs.I expect people will feel rightious doing whatever it takes to feed their children.It will not be with joy if I end up gunning someone down to protect my and mine,but in a hard world some of us are harder than most and have accepted that all actions have consequenses.

-- apokloliptik (apokoliptik@yahoo.com), October 26, 1999.

The saying ( Time to get lean and mean ) comes to mind. I personally moved into a temp house for this year. A complex of 20 condos, and it has been hard in trying to be to my-self. A neighbor struck-up a conversation with me and before you knew it I was babbeling on about the importance of the up and coming Y2k event. Now unfortunately there is one person in my complex that may think I have prepared. If I make my stand here for roll-over, I will hide my quality preps, and div-ve out rice. Buy lots of extra rice...---...

-- Les (yoyo@tolate.com), October 26, 1999.

Kook:

If you are living where there is snow in the winter, all your neighbors need to do is follow your footprints to find your stash.

Morrighan

-- Morrighan (matotipi@worldpath.net), October 26, 1999.

In my neighborhood feeding I stress that you share MEALS, not FOOD. You don't give food away, but instead give people a reason to cooperate over food.

First you form a nucleus of immediate neighbors, they get priority, and that gives them a stake in protecting the resource. Then you feed more distant neighbors, to give them no reason to attack, but you feed them less than the nucleus, to give the distant ones a reason to create their own common resource. The idea is to spawn multiple copies of this nucleus - to create food-based tribes from homogenous suburbia.

This is a feudalistic approach, which worked well enough for hundreds of years. It is not safe (feudal lords were always, well, feuding) but nothing will be safe next year, anyway.

-- bw (home@puget.sound), October 26, 1999.

It's very simple. If you share any food, those you share it with will know you have food and will kill you and your family and steal your food. They have no reason to do otherwise. They have no reason to help you, no reason to cooperate with you, and no reason to share it with you. Starvation is the only reason they need to kill you and your family and take what you have. When TSHTF, they will be starving. You should be able to figure out the rest.

-- (its@coming.soon), October 26, 1999.

apok,

IF y2k goes down as rumored, and IF you find yourself killing your brat neighbors, I WONDER, just how long your going to be able to live with yourself (especially with your belly all warm and full). After you kill one person. Or after five, or ten. You think your going to be going to bed with visions of sugarplums dancing through your head? ha

I love it when bonehead macho assholes think they got what it takes to slaughter people. I once shot five deer in the same day and seeing all the dead bodies lined up was enough to make me put away the rifle for years. I would give ten thousand dollars right now to reserve a spot to see the look on your face when you realize what a degenerate animal you've become. After all it takes a real tough guy to kill hungry people (or tough gal, what ever the case may be). You get Stalin's Asshole of the Year Award.

Save that last slug for yourself buddy-o.

-- (y@r.U such a psychopath?), October 26, 1999.

Thank you all, so far, for your thoughtful responses.

bw:

How long do you feed the nucleus of immediate neighbors? Indefinitely? If that nucleus consists of, say, three families, you're talking, say, an extra twelve people to feed indefinitely (not including the others you mentioned). Our resources are stretched as it is -- we'll have a houseful ourselves. There's no way we could keep up a program like that for very long without starving ourselves in the process.

I know the alternitive is a higher security risk. But starvation would be certain -- it will be a cold winter where we're at; wild edibles will be few.

Thank you.

-- eve (123@4567.com), October 26, 1999.

Furthermore, I wonder how many of you Christian nut bars out there think it's the the Righteous thing to do to "protect yours and your own".

A lot, I bet.

And yet...

Because God so loved the world he gave His only begotten Son.

And YOU assholes can't even consider giving up your precious supplies.

-- (many@many.pyschos around here), October 26, 1999.

eve,

Last summer I had a conversation with a guy who works for a local hospital. He was told *HIS* computer was Y2K compliant so he thought everyone elses was too. When I pushed the issue I could see he was a DWGI and decided to save my breath. I even offered to send him links/articles to check out on the web but he wasn't interested.

Anyway, this past weekend I saw him again and we started talking about Y2K. He was *much* more interested and was really asking GI questions this time. Then the topic turned to Y2K and food. He said "Could you really turn away a child who was starving? That would be too hard for me." I said "It would be hard for me too but every meal I put in someone elses mouth is a meal my children won't get later." I said "And I would do it with a clear conscience too since I told anyone who would listen to prepare for at least minimal distruptions, including you." He was then silent for a moment and quickly changed topics.

Now, I *have* set aside roughly 20% of my preps for other people, but that's for family members that I know aren't prepping. Anyone not in that category is not going to get food from me. I flat out told some of my oldest and closest friends last January that they were welcome to come to my house but they better bring their own food or they were not going to be eating. They know me well enough not to doubt my sincerety or my resolve.

I'm not cold hearted, just being pragmatic. I know no matter how much I would like it to be otherwise there's only so much to go around.

-TECH32-

-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), October 26, 1999.

Why do some consider it an all or nothing.

Either you give some food or none at all. We all keep a certain amount of food in the house. If TEOTWAWKI happens you can share your "meager" stores with your neighbors without giving away the amount of your preps. I like the share meals bit. Also a group can more easily defend our homes and families than one family.

Also there might be people with items or skills that could come in handy (i.e. gas for water or food).

It becomes easier if you know your neighbors before December.

If the event is mild to medium you have created goodwill.

Don't let people track you by your pre event talking...

Oops the contrails are back, must run away, aaarrrrggghhhhh

-- squid (itsdark@down.here), October 26, 1999.

Hey its@coming.soon, it's not all that simple. People want to cooperate, they don't want to kill, they like to be on teams. You can take advantage of those desires by forming a nucleus. All people work best in teams. Even the ultra macho LRRP and SEAL teams, SWAT, you name it, they ALL work in teams.

First, form a team. Pool resources (food is not the only one). Second, if your are strong enough to defend what you have, you can share with others. My referenced thread says this about six times, but let me repeat in case you missed it: IF YOU ARE STRONG ENOUGH. If you aren't, you don't set up a foodbank, you maintain a low profile. This is not rocket science.

Eve - this is not about you feeding all your neighbors, it's about creating a team that can forage, resupply, feed, stand guard, etc. You cannot feed your neighbors for any length of time, but you can use food (as well as other resources) as part of the startup, the pull on the starter rope to get the engine going. Read the thread - it talks about gardening, foraging teams, responsibilities, etc. The food just keeps you going until the process is working.

Example - fifty miles out of town are big farms with tons of grain, beans, you name it. One person can't make the trip while simultaneously guarding the house. But half a dozen neighbors can hold the fort, pool gasoline, send a half-ton truck with several men, and bring back a thousand pounds of beans. It takes a team.

-- bw (home@puget.sound), October 26, 1999.

BTW to many@many psychos:

You need to re-research the parable of the 10 virgins. You MIGHT understand the Christian perspective on the use of scarce resources.

Night train

-- jes a readin footballer (nighttr@in.lane), October 26, 1999.

It's not about resources, it's about Faith. With Faith in an everlasting life with Jesus how does anyone prioritize their stockpile of rice and beans over eternal life in Heaven? I mean, you can't take it with you! I'd rather face my maker starving with a good concious than face Him with a full stomach and blood on my hands.

I can see it now, a family is gatherted round the dinner table saying grace on a cold january night, by lamp light, when a knock comes from the door. It's your old neighbors, the Jones, and their two little kids, looking for some grub, and maybe a few peices of firewood, and maybe come back tomorrow again. So Dad gets his Mossberg Tactical Shotgun and blows away his starving neighbors ands then goes back to the table finish praying and eat, because God wants it that way.

Something wrong with this picture?

If you said yes, you still have potential.

If you said no then your beyond help. Go find a bunch of like minded individuals who want to discuss similar things on a public forum and call yourselves "Get It's".

-- (you people@make Norman Bates. look sane), October 26, 1999.

To all so far: Again, thanks for your kind help. First, bw, I haven't read your reference yet, so if it adequately addresses the following, please ignore this post.

In this situation, it seems you might feed others for three reasons:

1) Out of love, for the ones you care about. 2) Out of charity and general good will, to the extent you have excess; 3) To protect your own from possible harm.

I agree with the first two. But the third is very tricky, and brings up an important point:

If you give up your food to a protection racket (of course the potential perpetrators may or may not be aware of their future responses to the threat of starvation), you have no principle to fall back on regarding when to stop.

I'm just saying you have to be very careful here before you embark on a path such as this (more like an abyss). After all, a mob may or may not ever arrive if you don't give, but if you do give beyond your means, your starvation will be certain.

-- eve (123@4567.com), October 26, 1999.

First of all lets clear the record. "Christian" can be a label or it can define who a person is and how they live their life. True Christians have taken alot of heat over the years because of what some who call themselves Christians and who are thereby labeled Christians, have done or said. I do not believe that the Crusades were carried out by true Christians anymore than I believe that the holocaust was devised and implemented by true Christians. They were labeled "Christian" due to their words or carrying a Bible or whatever, but they were not true Christians.

I don't believe that anyone who is really saved by the Grace of God through His Son Jesus Christ will allow folks around them to starve. Anyone who is a true Christian will help folks the best they can and their reliance won't be on the food they have stored but on a mighty God who is in charge, both for current events and eternally. True Christians have a wonderful Saviour who is preparing a wonderful place for them and we are but vapor on this earth for a short while Y2K or no Y2K. Just ask Payne Stewarts family.

I believe that someone changed by the Grace of God would have a very hard time dealing with killing starving neighbors.

I personally know 2 police officers who have shot and killed someone. They both were fired at first and were defending themselves. Both were devastated by it. Both are "tough guys" but both are true Christians. I don't believe that anyone knows what it is like to kill another human being until it happens. Even under the best of circumstances, ie: self defense, it looks to be a pretty hard thing to deal with.

My neighbors and many friends are too precious to me to see them starve. I would have to help them the best I could. I agree with the post above that giving food away and feeding folks are too different things. I also agree that the pooling of resources will be done to help each other.

Y2K could be a catalyst to seperate the true Christians from those simply labeled Christians. It may seperate the sheep from the goats, the wheat from the weeds (tares).

The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness and self control. True Christians do and will produce this fruit consistantly.

-- the Virginian (1@1.com), October 26, 1999.

To add to my previous post:

And if the bad guys do arrive, there is certainly no guarantee they'll be successful.

Bottom line here? The risk seems higher if you give to possible or probable bad guys than if you don't.

The huge problem here, though, is (assuming you have excess): Who's a possible bad guy?

-- eve (123@4567.com), October 26, 1999.

Hey its@coming.soon, it's not all that simple. People want to cooperate, they don't want to kill, they like to be on teams.

They don't give a crap about "teams" if they or their children are starving. They also won't give a crap about YOU. If you have food and they don't, and they are dying of starvation, they will do whatever it takes to save themselves and their family. If that means killing you and taking what you have, then that's what they'll do.

You can take advantage of those desires by forming a nucleus. All people work best in teams. Even the ultra macho LRRP and SEAL teams, SWAT, you name it, they ALL work in teams.

Those ultra macho teams aren't usually made up of desperate people with starving babies. Desperation makes a big difference. For your sake, I hope you understand that before it's too late.

-- (its@coming.soon), October 26, 1999.

"They don't give a crap about "teams" if ... starving ..." "Those ultra macho teams aren't usually made up of desperate people with starving babies."

You haven't bothered to read the cited thread, have you?

Look, you don't greet starving, desperate people at the door and say "Hey, buddy, you look hungry. Let's form a team over lunch.". You get together with your neighbors BEFORE they're starving and desperate, as soon as the crisis is real enough to get their attention. And you say "We are in deep doo-doo, and there's gonna be some starving, desperate people running around pretty soon. You don't have much food, but you're a gun collector, and John has space for a garden, and this is a defensible position." And then you HOLD OFF the starving, desperate people.

You form a team in order to be stronger than any force the starving, desperate people can bring to bear. They are panicked, they are starving, they are not going to able to cooperate much. If you are not strong enough (I'm repeating myself here, did you notice?) then you keep a low profile. If you are strong enough to resist any single assault, then you might be able to afford to share. It's your call.

Now, as I've said about umpteen times, this is NOT GONNA WORK in an inner city. I don't know how to help people there. "Sorry, apartments 235 through 243 are now an ad-hoc feudal group. You'll have to take your SKS somewhere else." Yeah, right. This is a plan where the horde is a SMALL horde, where there is at least some space.

-- bw (home@puget.sound), October 26, 1999.

I browsed this thread and saw the gamut of human nature. The need to protect oneself and one's beloved. The burning desire to help your fellow man or woman or child. The predatory "instinct" (which BTW is - not- a native mental process for humans, ask any decent shrink). Everything from a "kill 'em all" school of thought to the thought of building a temporary hub system to ride it out.

NONE of these thoughts mentioned any long-term solutions. Predators get taken out relatively quickly. (Ask the Dade county people that rode out Andrew about how long looting lasted in residential areas. Most looters were scared off, shot, or captured within the week.) Preps are only as durable as their storage and distribution. Community actions are only as durable as the people within and their leadership.

We've got to think past the first year, folks. If Y2K goes anything harder than a medium-yield Yardeni scenario, we need to have thoughts on 2002, 2005, 2010, possibly beyond. Nothing physical lasts forever.

If it goes down in a big way (say Yardeni's '10' up to the granddaddy of BAD, Infomagic's '10') we will all need to pool resources and skills together to protect ourselves on the personal level, our area on a community level, our survival on a species level. We already know from all the past wars, etc. that no fixed position can be held forever, and we also know that no purely predatory force lasts for long. (Infighting often destroys such organized groups before they get too out of control.)

Try skipping the 2000/2001 timeframe and think of how we can all live to 2020 and beyond if Y2K is the collective bitch slap to humanity... What's worked or not worked in the past?

-- OddOne (mocklamer_1999@yahoo.com), October 26, 1999.

Look, you don't greet starving, desperate people at the door and say "Hey, buddy, you look hungry. Let's form a team over lunch.". You get together with your neighbors BEFORE they're starving and desperate, as soon as the crisis is real enough to get their attention. And you say "We are in deep doo-doo, and there's gonna be some starving, desperate people running around pretty soon.

If they are GI neighbors, then that may be okay, but if not, then it's probably too late for them at this point. As soon as TSHTF, they will be desperate, even if they're not starving just yet. Panic is panic, no matter how you slice it. By the time the crisis has their attention, they will be panicking. It would be wise to rethink your strategy lest you and your teams end up as splattered remains in the street.

-- (its@coming.soon), October 26, 1999.

eve,

Who's a possible bad guy? Anyone who won't take 'no' for an answer. I'm not a 'shoot first' kinda guy but if I point my shotgun at someone and tell them to leave and they don't, well then they've just made their intentions clear. If they aren't going to let the use of lethal force deter them in their plans then they definitly are a threat to me and my family. At that point they become a 'bad guy'. At that point I will shoot.

I've said it before and I'll say it again; I'm not going to shoot at anyone who doesn't CHOOSE to become a threat to me and mine first.

-TECH32-

-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), October 26, 1999.

"For your sake, I hope you understand that before it's too late. "

I know I understand you folks are all itching for this. You all think it is SO easy to blow someones brains out. Think about this folks. The thunderclap of the bullet exiting the barrel, rocketing towards the intended target. The lead impacting, spreading back the flesh as it enters, the blood splattering out, flying out and up in an arc. The gurgling sound made right before death. You put another slug int hem just to make sure.

Yeah, I understand just fine.

-- you make (me@sick.com), October 26, 1999.

Hi OddOne (Haven't done white LEDs yet - working on my ham ticket.)

What works is feudalism, if nothing else is functioning. Feudalism is how gangs hold turf, it's how city-states arise from tribes, it's how nations arise from city-states. Power structures grow naturally to the largest size that the technology will support. Nations are small in Europe because national boundaries formed with low technology. The North American nations tend to be very large, because as they formed we were gaining long-distance technology (trains, telegraph) that could support them. It's no accident that now people talk of a world government, because now we have the technology it would require. Not to say it's a good thing, mind you.

What my cited thread does is give the ground rules for the smallest viable group - a return to tribes, as our larger society crumbles, with the infrastructure pulled out from under it. Those tribes, the ad-hoc foodbanks, can persist for an unlimited time in that state (some will die off, some will be taken over, some will thrive). Or, if we manage to pull through Y2k as a nation, those groups will become irrelevant, like the platoon you were in in the Big War, with shared memories for the old folks to hash over but boring to the kids.

Speaking of rules, see the thread on how to manage the command hierarchy. (Someone else started the thread, my template is dated Sept 20.)

-- bw (home@puget.sound), October 26, 1999.

"As soon as TSHTF, they will be desperate, even if they're not starving just yet." Yup, and you're sure gonna have their attention if you tell them you have an answer. Y2k is a great teaching opportunity, because fear gets people's attention.

If they've prepped, great. If not, well, you work with what you got. If you go to your neighbor today and start talking about the perimeter and sentry duty, they'll think you're nuts. If you go over there the day after your grocery shelves clear in the panic, they'll think you're the best leader they ever heard.

So get your personal ducks in a row, get your preps. Get some extra (real plain) food to help your neighbor with, if needed, while the group gets going. Figure out who to start with and what you know about how they react. How many people can you cooperate with, to set up a neighborhood group? What natural boundaries does it have? What populations will be a threat, if they get scared?

There are way too many people who think this is gonna be some Mad Max movie and they get to be the hero. Most of the actors in those movies get killed off, you know. Too many people seem to be going through the mental images of blowing somebody away, in their minds, with WAY too much enthusiasm. One of the lessons evolution teaches is that the winner in most cases never fights at all - he/she uses bluff and posturing and threats. The ones who fight get killed pretty quick.

None of this is easy, none of it is safe. All you can do is minimize risks. We are all gonna lose some weight, next year.

-- bw (home@puget.sound), October 26, 1999.

I know I understand you folks are all itching for this. You all think it is SO easy to blow someones brains out. Think about this folks. The thunderclap of the bullet exiting the barrel, rocketing towards the intended target. The lead impacting, spreading back the flesh as it enters, the blood splattering out, flying out and up in an arc. The gurgling sound made right before death. You put another slug int hem just to make sure.

That's very good. Now think about that happening to your child because you wanted to be nice and help the poor starving family. Think about how he will die because you were too ignorant and stupid to protect him, how you sacrificed his life to save the lives of the murderers who were only after your food.

Do you understand THAT?

-- (its@coming.soon), October 26, 1999.

(many@many.pyschos around here),

What will you do...stand with your door open and let everyone go shopping in your home? Why the hell are you here then? Why are you preparing at all??

I will live with myself a lot better after killing some dipshit who was too stupid to prepare, then I would watching my 6 year old die of starvation or worse.

WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE US DO Mr. Righteous ?

-- Cory Hill (coryh@strategic-services.net), October 26, 1999.

1) Shooting bad guys looks easy on the teevee. Teevee is a long way from real.

2) North of the Mason-Dixon, there won't be much planting going on before late March at best. And any harvest will be later yet.

3) Miracles are always possible. Waiting around for one might get old. They've been rare in recent years.

-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), October 26, 1999.

"As soon as TSHTF, they will be desperate, even if they're not starving just yet." Yup, and you're sure gonna have their attention if you tell them you have an answer. Y2k is a great teaching opportunity, because fear gets people's attention.

But you really don't want their "attention". Once you have their "attention" they will realize what you have, and what they DON'T. And the wheels will begin to turn.

If they've prepped, great. If not, well, you work with what you got. If you go to your neighbor today and start talking about the perimeter and sentry duty, they'll think you're nuts. If you go over there the day after your grocery shelves clear in the panic, they'll think you're the best leader they ever heard.

Or they'll think your the best target they've ever heard.

So get your personal ducks in a row, get your preps. Get some extra (real plain) food to help your neighbor with, if needed, while the group gets going. Figure out who to start with and what you know about how they react. How many people can you cooperate with, to set up a neighborhood group? What natural boundaries does it have? What populations will be a threat, if they get scared?

Do you know how they'll react in a panic? Have you SEEN them in a situation where they're desperate? You and your family won't have any degree of safety unless you know the answers to THOSE questions.

There are way too many people who think this is gonna be some Mad Max movie and they get to be the hero.

Which one of us was suggesting that we'll be "the best leader they ever heard?" Watching too many Mad Max movies are we??

Most of the actors in those movies get killed off, you know.

Exactly my point.

Too many people seem to be going through the mental images of blowing somebody away, in their minds, with WAY too much enthusiasm.

Going through the mental images is the only way to prepare. If you aren't prepared mentally, it will very likely cost you the lives of yourself and your family.

One of the lessons evolution teaches is that the winner in most cases never fights at all - he/she uses bluff and posturing and threats. The ones who fight get killed pretty quick.

This is completely dependent on the situation. If you face someone who is desperate and starving and is ready to kill, your posturing and threats may not work. And what happens if you're wrong? You and your family die.

None of this is easy, none of it is safe. All you can do is minimize risks.

You got that right.

-- (its@coming.soon), October 26, 1999.

"It's not about resources, it's about Faith. With Faith in an everlasting life with Jesus how does anyone prioritize their stockpile of rice and beans over eternal life in Heaven?"

So you think god wants all of us to be complacent sheep..LOL You think he would have us lay down and die.

Maybe you should read the bible again, you are losing it.

-- Cory Hill (coryh@strategic-services.net), October 26, 1999.

TECH 32:

Your response to one of my questions, "Who's a possible bad guy", was simple, beautiful, and "dead on" (no pun intended):

"Who's a possible bad guy? Anyone who won't take 'no' for an answer..."

Personally, I'm not necessarily agreeing on the steps you should take once you make that judgment, but it was a great start.

Everyone, please go up a bunch of posts and re-read the whole message. It deserves some direct responses. If forum behavior dictates I should have quoted the whole post, please let me know.

Thanks to all for a terrific response.

-- eve (123@4567.com), October 26, 1999.

its@coming.soon - had to smile at your "best leader" dig, touche'.

Yes, it all depends on the situation. There are times when the bluff doesn't work, and then you have to use force. You want to minimize the occasions where that's necessary, because the risks are very high when you get to that point.

You don't want the attention of those who have nothing, you want the attention of your neighbors who have something to contribute, which might be other than food. Tom Carey is correct, if you can't raise a crop your chances of survival are reduced. That's why I predict 50k deaths in the midwest and northeast from hunger and cold. There are some parts of the country that are just too vulnerable to this kind of disruption. I REALLY hope it doesn't come to this.

It is very troubling to read these comments, and see how many people are just now trying to figure out how to handle this. For most, forming teams will be a desperate measure of last resort. If we had real political leadership, if they hadn't decided that happy face stories are better than truth, we'd all be prepped by now. We'd all have teams, and block captains or the like, and a month's food or more.

It's pathetic, that we have come to this point.

-- bw (home@puget.sound), October 26, 1999.

I wish I had a dollar for every post on this subject. When will people learn that threads like this servge mainly to provide the debunkers with grist for their nutbags mill? This is what's developing over there.

Some poor drunk or guy with car problems is going to die at the hand of these psychos. - Doomer::~Doomer() 10:29:55 10/26/99 (3)

I, too, worry about that problem. - Paul Davis 11:53:12 10/26/99 (1)

Add to that the *new* gun owners and it's a mix I don't want to see. (n/t) - Patricia 12:09:39 10/26/99 (0)

They drag that out every couple of weeks or so. It worries me more than anything else about them. (n/t) - Patricia 10:43:56 10/26/99 (0)

The DBs will not come up with viable suggestions of their own; they'll mostly lounge over there in their ivory tower and languidly comment on what barbarians we are. A few of them will come over here to deliberately taunt and keep the momentum going; cpr will cut and paste the thread into his Deep Wacko Secrets file or whatever the hell he calls it. The topic is a very personal one, comments can be grossly misinterpereted, misunderstood and taken out of context--think before you tap.

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), October 26, 1999.

(many@many.pyschos around here), What will you do...stand with your door open and let everyone go shopping in your home? Why the hell are you here then? Why are you preparing at all??

(Yes, I will stand there with my door open, and if it comes to the point that humans will rather take my stuff then act human then fine, take my stuff. B-o-o-h-o-o. Sometimes you people amaze me with you attitude towards your stuff, as if [ stuff = life ] in every equation. And I am not preparing, as you wrongfully assumed. I am already ready already, and I haven't done a darn thing. It pays to be a bhuddist, look into it. )

I will live with myself a lot better after killing some dipshit who was too stupid to prepare, then I would watching my 6 year old die of starvation or worse.

( I imagine that your six year old will find it very tough to deal with a mother who is a confessed killer. You ever stop to think about that? Or maybe your little six year old will pick up a .45 one day and "protect" his/her stuff, just like Mommy. Or ever better maybe one day two years down the road that 'dipshit's' brother shows up at your door and seeks revenge. Awww, poor little six year old has no Mommy anymore. If you think you can live with that sort of anxiety for the rest of your natural life then I don't envy the Revelation you'll get in return.)

WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE US DO Mr. Righteous ?

( I guess If I had to advize anybody to do anything, I'd say throw your guns into a swamp, leave your front door open starting tomorrow, and make your peace with your God. Assuming that anybody would listen to me I would also advise ditching the shooting rods before you make your peace. But since that is asking people to think out of the box I don't hold any hope of it happening. Maybe one day people will live their ENTIRE lives understanding that your born with nothing and you die with nothing, and everything in between is gravy. You should never even consider harming life to protect possesion. Now you say, BUT MY POSSESION IS MY LIFE!!. Not true. Your life is your life, your stuff is your stuff. Draw a line and realize that you'll still be alive even if all your stuff should disappear today. Excluding the stray person whose "stuff" is a kidney dialysis machine, but let's not get into too many details. Now you might not feel very good about losing all your stuff. But what does it matter? One day God (or WHOM-ever) is going to call your Bingo number and your time on Earth is up. When you stop to think about it, all your "stuff' is really on loan anyway.)

-- Cory Hill (coryh@strategic-services.net), October 26, 1999.

-- (mr@righteous.com), October 26, 1999.

Hello,

Reading the post on this thread brought one important point to mind. Namely, remember that IF TSHTF in Jan '00, that does NOT mean that things will STAY disrupted. People, organizations and governments DO react and adapt. Lets say food supplies thru normal channels ARE disrupted. That does not mean that everybody has to wait until graocery store shelves are restocked. Nor does it mean they have to wait untill what they are used to eating gets restocked. People will manage -- somehow, someway -- they have for centuries.

Still, the amounts and logistics for feeding large populations -- or of large populations trying to "live off the land" are not promising if we have TEOTWAWKI. But, if it is TEOTWAWKI, nobody's prospects are going to be that great. Think infected tooth, accident, infection, appendix going bezerk, whatever.

Besides, it isn't true that the only food that is going to be in existance is what people have stored away as "preps" or what is going to come from their seeds they have stored. Anybody who thinks this, and is not in an area nobody can get to is in for a surprise if they think someone would not steal their harvest before they decide it's ready -- along with seeds for next year. You plant next year, tend your garden then starve when your harvest gets stolen -- not good!

What I'm saying is this: Scenarios where some folk go back to pre-industrial civilization are rubish. Isn't going to happen. There is no way you can "prep" for everything you will need for the rest of your life if you live very long. Basically, civilization, and us in it will make it, or we as a collective group of people will not. I think we are all in the same boat. Unless you hide somewhere and never come out of your hole -- and that's hard -- read about cabin fever -- the idea of going it alone is going to get tripped up somewhere along the line. In a Mad Max situation, some preditor is going to see you and take you out. Sooner or later you will need to come out of your hole and deal with people. If you've isolated yourself, you won't really know what's going on and how the "Romans" are doing it in the Mad Max era. Your prospects seem dim to me...and I think you would appear an easy mark..who didn't know the current "rules".

Anybody who thinks they are going to come out of their hole, and walk around feared because of the firepower they display is going to provide nothing but laughs for their killers, after they strip your corpse bare after they kill you -- and your attitude. In addition, anybody who thinks they are going to be the "rullers" in some warlord state is most likely very mistaken -- at least among most posting here. I suspect many here have quite the inflated opinion of themselves in the TEOTWAWKI scenarios they envision. If some of you get your "wish", you are not going to be happy at being able to tell the "pollys" "I told you so"....if you think otherwise, you are most likely deluded.

There are lots of wantabe Rambos out there -- I don't expect them to last too long. The real preditors will take you out before you know what hit you. You wantabe amateurs are deluded if you think you, or even a little group, can "defend" your little bunker compound from a lone or even small group of "professionals". I hope any of you with these delusions give them up before they result in your death. But, hey...it's your life.

As for killing people, this is quite individualistic. Some of us couldn't live with ourselves, others of us wouldn't be bothered at all. I will say one thing. One does get desensitized; each time it gets easier and easier. Especially when you don't have to clean up the stinky, bloody squishy mess. And, if you do have to clean up the mess, better to do it sooner than latter -- corpses tend to start coming apart after just a few days -- grab an arm to drag em off -- and the arm comes off in your hand -- and you see the ooze coming out -- yuk -- enough to make you lose your appetite -- at least the first few times -- same with legs. heads, ect. Reality won't be kind in such a situation.

I've seen lots of post reflecting positions that I -- my opinion here -- do not think are too keen, realistic or well thought out. In my opinion, I think the best chance for survival will be those who join with others for their common good. Yes, this would be difficult, strained and dangerous -- but still -- in my opinion -- more likely to result in the average persons survival than going it alone in a bunker.

Hey, this is just my opinion and food for thought. Hope it helps. If not, oh well....bandwith is cheap. In any event, take care and best wishes.

Remeber...one shot...one kill...

-- Killer (DominantSniper@yahoo.com), October 26, 1999.

how can I get to this debunkers forum?

-- Cory Hill (coryh@strategic-services.net), October 26, 1999.

Read the "Out Of The Ashes" series of books by W.W.Johnstone. Then go to www.tsc-ashes.com

The Tri-States teams are being formed now! Safety is enhanced being with people holding the same values. If you agree with the philosophy of the "Ashes" books contact us.

-- Mr. Pinochle (pinochledd@aol.com), October 26, 1999.

Yes, it all depends on the situation. There are times when the bluff doesn't work, and then you have to use force. You want to minimize the occasions where that's necessary, because the risks are very high when you get to that point.

Unfortunately, these occasions will likely be the norm when TSHTF.

You don't want the attention of those who have nothing, you want the attention of your neighbors who have something to contribute, which might be other than food.

The problem is figuring that out. If you don't know what they have, you have to ask, and then THEY ask and what do you tell them? The truth? A lie? Will they find out anyway?? If you draw attention to yourself in ANY WAY, you will inevitibly draw the attention of someone who has nothing and wants what you have. To truly minimize the risk, it is best to keep quiet.

Tom Carey is correct, if you can't raise a crop your chances of survival are reduced. That's why I predict 50k deaths in the midwest and northeast from hunger and cold.

I think it will be much worse than that.

It is very troubling to read these comments, and see how many people are just now trying to figure out how to handle this.

It is indeed.

-- (its@coming.soon), October 26, 1999.

Debunky:

http://stand77.com/wwwboard/board.html

Lots of other links of the header.

-- (jh@db.og), October 26, 1999.

I bet all my rice and beans Mr. Righteous doesn't have any children.

Mr. Righteous: if you DID have children, or even one child, you would realize that is ONE responsibility/factor in life that isn't just gravy. A child is a MAJOR responsibility of the first ORDER and I happen to have a 5 year old daughter. She was given to me by GOD as a blessing. It is my beholden duty to ensure that she is kept alive, protected, fed, well, loved.

Now of COURSE I am not going to blow away anyone who comes to the door wanting food. But you are not aware that there can be a middle ground between just blowing people away and opening my front door wide to let the masses take our food and watch my daughter die a slow death from starvation. There is something called compromise. And I think God would be pretty proud to see somebody trying their darndest not to turn away a hungry person and at the same time trying to protect the dearest blessing they have ever received. Now THAT is a tall order! If Y2K is soooo bad that I have people threatening to run over me and take my food by force, they will look down the barrel of my .380 and my husband's shotgun. And I will pray that they see the lack of hesitation in our eyes and leave. And I will pray that they find food.

You can't save the world, Mr. Righteous. Only God can do that.

-- preparing (preparing@home.com), October 26, 1999.

What are you criticizing me for? I'm the one who said to throw your guns away and make your peace WITH God.

Ghandi did it, and he got shot for it. And there was a man, who although lived a solitary life, with millions of children.

Ghandi will always be remembered as a saint and a sage.

But no, your right, go down in history as the bitch with the .380 and one kid.

In fact, be my guest.

-- (Mr@R. here), October 26, 1999.

Mr. Right Here,

Did you also know Ghandi was quoted as saying (and I'm paraphrasing here) "The greatest evil commited by the British was the disarming of the Indian People?" You see, even though he was opposed to violence, he KNEW that a free people deserved the right to defend themselves, even if he personally chose not to defend himself.

-TECH32-

-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), October 26, 1999.

Forgive me for not being able to cite book, chapter and verse, but the Bible does say (inexact quote) "he who provides not for his own house is a traitor to the faith, and worse than an infidel".

So much for letting your own children starve. Incidentally, I don't see in scripture where Jesus Christ talked in the manner of this individual who's hobby seems to be handing out holier-than-thou's. If as a Christian you are trying to emulate Jesus' example, may I suggest you look at the words in red again, brother.

-- PKM (.@...), October 26, 1999.

One point seems to be missing in this thread. Hungry people do not pose a serious threat. They do not shoot well; shakes from the hunger. Travel on foot is also hard if you are about to pass out from hunger. It seems to me that the most threat will come in that short period between realization that food is no longer available and the onset of severe hunger pains.

Yes I have guns and I also have life insurance. I do not wish to see either come into play.

-- Ed (ed@lizzardranch.com), October 26, 1999.

Tech, Ghandi also said if he had to choose between cowardice and violence, he would choose violence.

His non-violent campaign was specifically aimed at the British in India, who he perceived as religious and possessed of a conscience. He knew that if he ad his followers resisted their intimidation with dignity and non-violent perseverance, he would win them over. He was right. He had studied law in London and knew the British ruling class well.

Perhaps if he had acted differently, he might have been able to defend himself against the assassin who shot him four times. Ghandi was only 50 and had much greatness left to give.

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), October 26, 1999.

Applying a Christian ideal, or a Hindu, Muslim or even Buddhist ideal in a time of crisis will be ideal. However, assuming that the masses will react as such is a great assumption when your family's lives are at stake. I hope we find ourselves in a touchy-feely world next year.

-- apokoliptik (apokilyptik@yahoo.com), October 26, 1999.

From: Y2K, ` la Carte by Dancr (pic), near Monterey, California

And I am not preparing, as you wrongfully assumed. I am already ready already, and I haven't done a darn thing. It pays to be a bhuddist, look into it.

I guess that would make you a stharving vhegetarian phasifist or a fhake already.

-- Dancr (addy.available@my.webpage), October 26, 1999.

Mr. Righteous: That is the wonderful thing about this country! You have the right to allow all the people you want into your house to take everything you have and allow your family to starve. I have the right to defend my home and family (as do the rest of us). I also have the responsibility to act in as civil manner as possible in a time of crisis while not jeopardizing my family's welfare.

BTW, you never answered whether you have children or not. Methinks your viewpoint would be a tad different if you did.

I never claimed I was Ghandi, for crying out loud. Are YOU?

-- preparing (preparing@home.com), October 26, 1999.

please don't gloat in the Budda's name, it slanders the Tathagata and the Dharma.There is nothing barring the laity from storing food in anticipation of an inpending supply crises.If the laity starve the sanga starves.impermanence is the only constant.

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), October 27, 1999.

Why Support a Buddhist Center? by Ven. Gelong Konchog Lhundrup In order to understand the need for Buddhist Centers and why they should be supported it is necessary to understand how they benefit oneself and others.

In order to understand that it is necessary to understand the causes of delusion and their relationship to spiritual growth and how that in turn is affected by the existence of the Center.

If we check in the teachings for the causes of delusion (here I'll be referring to the presentation from Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand released by Wisdom Publications), besides the primary cause of their foundation which refers to the seeds or latencies in the mind- stream, we find five other causes listed. These are; objects, society, discussions, familiarity, and unrealistic thinking.

To quote:

Although the root of the six subtle and extensive root delusions is ignorance, one develops attachment, hostility, doubt, and so forth, in dependence on the view of equating the self with the perishable. And in dependence on attachment, etc., one turns on the [samsaric] wheel. The roots of samsara are ignorance, the instinctive grasping at an "I", and the view that the self is the perishable set [of aggregates]. To abandon delusion for good, one must work hard at applying the antidote to ignorance and to grasping at a self - that is, the wisdom that understands selflessness. This wisdom that understands self- lessness is like a medicine, therefore that can destroy hundreds of evils. All the same, until one understands selflessness, one must employ some means to suppress delusions in order to be temporarily rid of them. One must prevent their causes.

Then the six causes of delusion are presented as mentioned before.

The point being, that if we haven't already destroyed the root then we have to pay close attention to keeping the branches trimmed back to avoid getting all tangled up in the thorns. In order to have the mental space to realize selflessness one needs to keep the delusions from arising. And if one hasn't realized selflessness in this life, but has controlled the arisal of delusions and practiced positive actions, then at least the karma that throws one to the next life is more likely to be positive than negative.

Now, to mention the six in some detail and their relationship to the Dharma Center:

The first, the foundation or basis is something that we are all familiar with. It is something that we experience and continue to create everyday. It is something that we have an infinite supply of: the tendency to act motivated by delusion. As we remember from the outline on karma; the result which is similar to the cause as an imprint on the mind that is the tendency for the delusion to arise again. If one meets with the appropriate conditions the delusion will arise. But, it is also similar for the positive frames of mind. Given the proper circumstances these will also arise. It is only by meeting the teachings in a Dharma Center that we are first ofall even able to understand karma and secondly able to hear and understand the teachings on mind transformation that enable us to increase the positive and decrease the negative imprints on our mind streams.

The second cause is the object. When we meet objects that are viewed as pleasant or unpleasant, the imprints of attachment and anger have the occasion to arise. We can in large part control the arisal of delusion by controlling the objects we let ourselves meet in daily life. This is why the situation that we place ourselves in is so important in helping us develop skillful or unskillful karmas to carry us to the next life, or go completely beyond controlled rebirth. For example, If one lived in or visited a Dharma Center regularly, the imprints that would be helped to ripen would be different from those ripening if one lived over or was a regular visitor to a pub or discotheque.

The third cause of delusion is society. In other words the people that we associate with. This is not difficult to notice in our own behavior. When we are near the spiritual guide and dharma friends we have greater opportunity and are more inclined to practise than if we spend our time with non-dharma friends. Like the reformed alcoholic or drug addict needs to avoid their drinking or druggy friends, we need to avoid people that influence us towards negative action. There is no need to fear loneliness if one gives up old friends who lead one in destructive directions; soon enough one finds new friends who are also interested in spiritual practice. The Center provides the opportunity to meet the spiritual guide and Dharma friends.

The fourth cause is discussion. This refers not only to conversation, but also to reading material, the cinema, videos, and so forth that cause delusion to arise. If one is to tame the mind, then activities that encourage the arisal of delusion have to be abandoned. Talking about dharma, reading about dharma, these are activities that encourage dharma frames of mind to arise and again the Dharma Center provides the situation. Watching, reading, or talking about sex, drugs and alcohol, and violence encourages negative mind to arise. We can check ourselves the different effects that an hour spent reading the life story of Milarepa or Naropa has compared to an hour spent at a violent "X" rated film.

The fifth cause is familiarity. Because of infinite lifetimes of familiarity with delusions, they seem "natural" to us. For example, maybe we know somebody that identifies strongly with an angry sort of personality, someone who uses anger as a method to get his or her own way, and thus always is creating more cause for the delusion to arise in the future and eventually become completely controlled by it. Even if it seems temporarily useful, it is actually quite harmful for the person's spiritual development. It is also quite harmful, quite unpleasant, for those who are close to that person. The Center provides the opportunity to become familiar and develop beneficial states of mind, so that they become "natural" to us.

The sixth cause is unrealistic thinking. Maybe we have had the experience after some one has harmed us that even if we try to meditate on love and compassion or the deity or mantra, instead of the object of meditation appearing in our mind we go over and over the faults of the other person, even going back in time to bring up all the old things. "First he did this, and then he did that, and now he has done this." Going over and over again all the bad things: a kind of negative checking meditation. By the end of our session, instead of feeling uplifted by the practice, we are even more angry at the person than when we started. This works the same way for an object of desire. We over exaggerate some part, and then go over and over that in our mind until we just have to have it. Instead of applying the opponents we are just building up the power of delusion. The Center provides us the opportunity to discover the correct way of practice and a place to practice whether as a resident or a visitor.

The places on this earth that are conducive for the development of the six causes are many and the places conducive for keeping the six causes from arising are few. That is why the Centers are so important for the development of Buddhism in the West. Buddhism is not some external thing: It is the minds of living beings turning away from delusion and actions caused by delusion.

So if we examine the benefit, in this life and future lives, for ourselves and for others that comes from the Center and compare that to the benefit for ourselves and others that comes from our normal activity, for example eating out and going to the cinema, and then compare the amount of money we dedicate for both, we might think it beneficial or useful to reorganize our priorities and give more money to support the Center then we do now.

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), October 27, 1999.

"That's very good. Now think about that happening to your child because you wanted to be nice and help the poor starving family. Think about how he will die because you were too ignorant and stupid to protect him, how you sacrificed his life to save the lives of the murderers who were only after your food.

Do you understand THAT? "

I understand you had to result to insults to refute me, but hey, if that's all you have in your arsenal, I guess you use what's ya got.

-- you make (me@sick.com), October 27, 1999.

After reading some of these posts, I can understand why the government is concerned about lunatics. Looks like a bunch of psychoics just looking for an excuse to shoot someone. Its posts like some of these that make me grateful if the National Guard and police ARE IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD! Obviously most of you advocating shooting someone have not ever really had contact with the real world or are familiar with the psychological trauma of ending a life. If you have no conscious, then you really need help.

-- scared (guard@home.safe), October 27, 1999.

scared,

Why are you scared? I haven't heard anyone up here say anything about going out looking for someone to shoot. Just people explaining that they intend on DEFENDING themselves and their families. Unless you plan on raiding your GI neighbor I doubt you have much to worry about from the folks up here...

-TECH32-

-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), October 27, 1999.

Working in a Fire Tower, I get visited all the time by wasps ( one of God's creatures ) who are among the most intelligent insects. Wasps will not attack you unless you attack them in some way. Perhaps I am too gentile a person but I prefer to guide them out a window with a piece of paper as opposed to killing them as I have seen others do.

I remember a co-worker I had who killed them like crazy. I noticed one wasp who had been wacked into two parts, the wasp was severed at it's midsection. Anyway, I noticed it's stinger moving a little so I got a pencil and pressed on it and it curled up and tried to sting the pencil. Amazing ! It had been dead for at least 12 hours yet it's stinger was fully functional.

Another thing about male wasps, they sometimes fight to the death over a female, that is, who gets to impregnate her.

Now would you call the wasp evil because it defends itself when threatened, and has a system where only the fiercest males get to produce offspring ?

I would think not, it's a hostile world out there, only the strongest survive in it, and this is the way God made the wasp.

Yes, I have been stung by them, but only when I accidently hurt them. I feel the same way about someone using a gun to defend themself and his/her supplies, their life is dependant upon their supplies and how can there be blame in God's eyes toward them defending themselves in the same way that the wasp will defend itself ?

This will be the posture I will take next year, I will be like a wasp. Leave me alone and I will leave you alone, but try to hurt me and I will certainly sting you.

Also as I tend to be somewhat high-strung, I will be studying Zen, lots and lots of Zen.

-- Stanley Lucas (StanleyLucas@WebTv.net), October 27, 1999.

I hope you all understand this is not written for all. This would only speak to those who claim to believe the Bible is the inspired (God Breathed)Word of God. If you read Matt.24, all of it, you'll see Jesus separating the sheep from the goats. Two of the deciding points was whether the individual in question fed those that were "one of my least brothers", not family members. Thirst and clothing were mentioned also in the list of questions.

I have never understood the words of the Bible that say, he who tries to save his life loses it and he who loses his life saves it. That of course is not a direct quote. I think I may understand it now.

As far as the parable of the virgins is concerned, it was the Master of the house that locked them out, not the other virgins.

I have to wonder as I read about how violently some of you plan on protecting your "stuff". What will you do if difficulties go beyond your anticipated timeframe, and your "stuff" runs out? Will you seek out those of us who are sharing with others who have hungry family members? Will your solution be the same? Shoot me in order to save your family? There's assumption that your plans and preps will see you through with no complications. What happens if something unforseeable puts a crimp in your preps? How then will you feel about those like myself who don't think it possible to turn away the hungry, thirsty or the those needing shelter from the cold?

I pray that this is a mere bump in the road and that Koskinen is correct for all our sakes.

-- IMay (IMayNow@understand.com), October 28, 1999.

"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property . . . Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them." Thomas Paine, Thoughts on Defensive War (1775). "The great object is that every man be armed" and "everyone who is able may have a gun." --Patrick Henry, in the Virginia Convention on the ratification of the Constitution. Debates and other Proceedings of the Convention of Virginia,...taken in shorthand by David Robertson of Petersburg, at 271, 275 2d ed. Richmond, 1805. Also 3 Elliot, Debates at 386

-- apokoliptik (apokoliptik@yahoo.com), October 28, 1999.

The Amish will not defend them selves from mohawked ex-yuppie ass rapers either.But you don't see them over here trying to pass themselves off as moraly superior.The Dharma certainly does not advocate whiney liberal attitudes of moral superiority.

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), October 28, 1999.