Gold turning to dust! Down 6.5 since this morn..

-- wundering now what (stillwaitng@the goldbar.net), October 25, 1999

Answers

Its on sale. More time to buy at less cost.

dave

-- dave (wootendave@hotmail.com), October 25, 1999.

Its those pesky aliens from Nibiru. From what I've recently read on some posts here and USAGold forum they're gonna crater our gold market, enslave mankind, and then get all our gold!

-- Downstreamer (downstream@bigfoot.com), October 26, 1999.

WNW,

Naw, you'se got it all wrong!!! You gotta' buy the dips, right?? Just follow the lemming mantra and everything will be AOK, see, now isn't that better? Go take two Prozac and call me in the morning (to buy more gold)!!!

-- golden rule (gold4cheap@now.com), October 26, 1999.

A few observations:

1. The strength of feeling about an opinion does not guaranty the accuracy of that opinion.
2. Intemperate statements about people who have reservations about opinions does not substantiate those opinions.
3. Theories and rumors and gossip about "maniulation" of gold prices do not enable you accurately to predict what gold prices will be on or about which dates.
4. It's easy to make predictions some of which come close to seeming accurate; making consistently accurate predictions is another story entirely.
5. Placing too many "eggs" in one basket can be very risky.
6. Caution in investing is often prudent.

Jerry

-- Jerry B (skeptic76@erols.com), October 26, 1999.

Jerry and DS,

you old tarts,

nothing ventured, nothing gained,

seems to me you are both obsessed by the minutiae

hey, shmucks, how much is a double=whopper with "cheese"...?

get a fucking grip if you must pontificate...

-- Andy (AUVENGER@cs.com), October 26, 1999.

Andrew,

I'll guarantee I'm venturing and gaining just fine. Its just not on your interplanetary/super natural beings gold conspiracy contentions. Tehehe.

-- Downstreamer (downstream@bigfoot.com), October 26, 1999.

Hey guys, this isn't a certificate of deposit. It is END GAME, with the biggest financial entities in the world fighting over the Price of Gold. You got to wait till it plays itself out. Real gold in your pocket will still be there when this paper fight collapses.

-- ng (cantprovideemail@none.com), October 26, 1999.

Andy,

As I indicated above, intemperate statements about people who have reservations about opinions do not substantiate those opinions.

Jerry

-- Jerry B (skeptic76@erols.com), October 26, 1999.

Jerry, you said: "Theories and rumors and gossip about "manipulation" of gold prices do not enable you accurately to predict what gold prices will be on or about which dates." Sorry pal, but it ain't theory, rumor or gossip of manipulation anymore, courtesy of Greenspan himself.

Greenspan on July 24th 1998, admitted in testimony to the manipulation of suppressing the price of gold and how it is done.

"Potential Application of the CEA to OTC Derivatives"

....There is a significant business in oil-based derivatives, for example. But unlike farm crops, especially near the end of a crop season, private counterparties in oil contracts have virtually no ability to restrict the worldwide supply of this commodity. (Even OPEC has been less than successful over the years.) Nor can private counterparties restrict supplies of gold, another commodity whose derivatives are often traded over-the-counter, where central banks stand ready to lease gold in increasing quantities should the price rise."

http://www.bog.frb.fed.us/boarddocs/testimony/1998/19980724.htm

This outright statement should scare the bejesus out of anyone who understands the significance of manipulated markets. The European bankers recent 5 year moratorium on gold sales and leasing should make it clear that they aren't playing ball with the US-Britain-IMF- World Bank big boys anymore.

What does it all mean? The answer takes time, effort and long hard probing into the vast nuances of international dealings. Will I or anyone else for that matter, be able to accurately predict the direction of gold? NO. The best I can do is guess, but I will tell you this: a commodity that continues to remain in the vaults of central banks and private hands to the tune of trillions of dollars; is admittedly manipulated; and is for the most part ignored by the mainstream media; has a great deal of significance in our future. After all, we aren't talking pork belly or coffee futures. And you can take THAT to the bank.

Finally, I do agree with your assertion: 'Placing too many "eggs" in one basket can be very risky'....and leaving my "eggs" in dollars is much more of a risk than gold, because I don't view gold as a 'dollar generating investment'. I view it as the muslims do...a wealth RETENTION tool.

-- OR (orwelliator@biosys.net), October 26, 1999.

OR,

Greenspan clearly uses the word manipulation to refer to restricting the supply in, and/or cornering, some market, in order to spike prices upward in that market. His reference to CB gold leasing, in the context of the possibility of attempts to drive gold prices up by means of such manipulation, is as a counter to such manipulation.

His testimony might be considered weakly supportive of claims that gold prices might in theory be manipulated upwardly, but it lends zero support to claims that gold prices have been manipulated downwardly.

More importantly, if too briefly, use of the word manipulate to characterize market behaviour is usually too subjective to be useful. The only thought that the word clearly conveys is dislike of some aspect of that which is labeled manipulation.

Most importantly, some people may get taken in by the continual hype of some goldbugs and make substanial investments at times and at prices that may lead to major losses that they can ill afford. It will be of no comfort to such people to say that their investments would have been fine but for all that "manipulation".

Jerry

-- Jerry B (skeptic76@erols.com), October 27, 1999.

Jerry, please explain to me how you get the following sentence to interpret that gold is being manipulated UP IN PRICE?????

"where central banks stand ready to lease gold in increasing quantities should the price rise."

-- OR (orwelliator@biosys.net), October 27, 1999.

OR,

OR "Jerry, please explain to me how you get the following sentence to interpret that gold is being manipulated UP IN PRICE????? "

Neither I, nor anything in my post, so interprets that sentence. Perhaps some caps may help you.

Greenspan clearly uses the word manipulation to refer to restricting the supply in, and/or cornering, some market, in order to spike prices upward in that market. His REFERENCE to CB gold leasing, in the context of the POSSIBILITY of ATTEMPTS to drive gold prices up by means of such manipulation, IS AS a counter to such manipulation.

His testimony MIGHT be considered WEAKLY supportive of claims that gold prices MIGHT IN THEORY be manipulated upwardly, but it lends zero support to claims that gold prices have been manipulated downwardly.

More importantly, if too briefly, use of the word manipulate to characterize market behaviour is usually too subjective to be useful. The only thought that the word clearly conveys is dislike of some aspect of that which is labeled manipulation.

Most importantly, some people may get taken in by the continual hype of some goldbugs and make substanial investments at times and at prices that may lead to major losses that they can ill afford. It will be of no comfort to such people to say that it would have worked ok but for those manipulators.

Jerry

-- Jerry B (skeptic7776@erols.com), October 27, 1999.

Hey!

I don't think you stupid gold bugs will ever give it up. No matter what the price of gold does, you idiots will be deluded into thinking the dreaded "they" are behind it, and that your "brilliance" will be rewarded by people throwing piles of cash or bartered goods at your feet for a sliver of your precious metals. Idiots!!

You idiots have had your "crash is coming any minute" blinders on for so long you can't see straight. DUMMIES!! -- IF TSHTF, why would you ever want to trade your "precious metal" for "worthless" paper -- even if it goes to $4000 and ounce? Not so you could spend some of that worthless money? Why, I guess you will just file off some dust at the grocery counter, right? And have some pissed off people telling you to hurry the hell up with your filing!

You people who think gold is the answer are out of it. IF...that's IF...not when ...your "hopes" come thru, there won't be a stable economic system for you to plunder with your "gold"...it would probably just get you killed...if not for the gold than because your attitude pissed somebody off!

Idiots! You missed the biggest bull market in history with this same old same old decades old drivel about gold as a safe harbor in the "immenent collapse" that never came...DORKS!!

-- Anti-tinfoil (despise@lltinfoils.here), October 27, 1999.

A-t,

I very much doubt that insults thrown at goldbugs are any more conducive to clearer perceptions of the issues than are insults thrown in the other direction.

Jerry

-- Jerry B (skeptic76@erols.com), October 27, 1999.

Okay Jerry, so you are saying your interpretation is that the effect of gold leasing creates stabilization over upward price manipulation?

-- OR (orwelliator@biosys.net), October 27, 1999.

OR,

No, that is an incorrect generalization of what I wrote. It is also an incorrect generalization of Greenspan's comments.

While he suggested such stabilization is one possible reason for CB gold leasing, neither he, nor I, suggested that such stabilization is the only plausible reason for gold leasing by CBs or others.

I'll get back to you later today after a few rem cycles. :-)

Jerry

-- Jerry B (skeptic76@erols.com), October 28, 1999.

OR,

BTW, the word stabilization may be misleading in this context.

To continue, Greenspan's testimony included only one sentence about gold; it was not the main topic of his testimony.

That one sentence:

"Nor can private counterparties restrict supplies of gold, another commodity whose derivatives are often traded over-the-counter, where central banks stand ready to lease gold in increasing quantities should the price rise."

very obviously does not include an extensive discussion of CB gold leasing practices and/or policies. So, it seems to me to be an insufficient basis for deducing anything other than what it says.

Meanwhile, if a CB has a bunch of gold which legal and/or political factors may prohibit the bank from selling, the bank may be able to get some revenue by leasing some of that gold. It may not be a large amount of revenue, but as they say, a few millions here, a few millions there, and pretty soon your talking more than a few millions.

Jerry

-- Jerry B (skeptic76@erols.com), October 28, 1999.

Look Jerry, if you want to play around with semantics, go right ahead. WORLD WIDE Gold market manipulation is clear, evident and has been written about quite a bit lately.

It doesn't get any clearer than this:

Keith Goode of Bell Securities, one of Australia's top gold analysts, stated: "Analysts see the UK as being worried about the fate of Commonwealth member country Ghana, whose largest gold producer Ashanti Goldfields Co Ltd (AGC.GH) has been hit hard through its hedge book position by September's unexpected gold price rise.

"In saving Ashanti Gold Mines, it (Britain) saves the Ghanaian economy. It doesn't want Ghana...to fall over, because otherwise it's going to have to finance its recovery," Goode said...

This increased pressure on the Bank of England to push the price of gold down, he said...

One reason for gold's sharp price fall on Tuesday night was pressure by the Bank of England to get the price below $300."

http://infoseek.go.com/Content?arn=a0496reuff- 19991027&qt=&sv=IS&lk=noframes&col=NX&kt=A&ak=news1486

-- OR (orwelliator@biosys.net), October 28, 1999.

OR,

That's the beautiful part about "manipulation"; anyone can allege, without a shread of evidence, that whatever it is that happened was caused by "manipulation", and some folks are ready and willing to believe it. :-)

Jerry

-- Jerry B (skeptic76@erols.com), October 28, 1999.

Not a shred of evidence Jerry? You want to play word games with what Greenspan said and then insist there is not one shred of evidence?

Are you kidding? You have got a serious denial problem.

Have a nice day.

-- OR (orwelliator@biosys.net), October 28, 1999.

http://www.kitco.com/gold.graph.html

S.O.B.

-- sweetolebob (buffgun@hotmail.com), October 28, 1999.

There's that nasty ol' word MANIPULATION again. They just keep on coming....

In today's Financial Times (London) by Gillian O'Connor:

"Gold remained at just over $290 an ounce at both the morning and afternoon fixings. Robert de Crespigny, chairman of Australia's biggest gold miner, Normandy, attributed the latest fall to bank manipulation designed to protect option exposures."

-- OR (orwelliator@biosys.net), October 28, 1999.

OR,

What specific actions did the BOE supposedly take to implement the so called pressure? What evidence decribes quantitatively those supposed actions, and what evidence of such suposed actions indicates that they were of sufficient magnitude to have caused gold prices to have varied by how much from what they would have been in the absence of such supposed actions?

Simply assuming "manipulation" may be easy, but that does not make it real.

Jerry

-- Jerry B (skeptic76@erols.com), October 28, 1999.

Jerry, since it is obvious you have not availed yourself of relevant gold commentaries in recent months and you are, after all, questioning the veracity of the comments made by Keith Goode of Bell Securities, one of Australia's top gold analysts in the above article, I suggest you get it from the horse's mouth so you no longer have any more excuses. I look forward to your posting regarding your discussion with Mr. Keith Goode.

As far as comments made by Mr. Greenspan, ...I suppose it's my interpretation against yours. One needs to seek an explanation for such odd and unprecidented movement (or previous lack thereof) of gold in the last few years. If you choose to see it as normal...well that is your option. I and many others do not. It cannot be explained away as anything other than manipulation, since there is simply no historical precident / pegging available to substantiate normality.

-- OR (orwelliator@biosys.net), October 29, 1999.

OR,

If you think a discussion with Goode would be enlightening, be my guest. While you're at it, you might ask him why he was floating that "pressure by the Bank of England" canard instead of describing the deal that Ashanti was working out with its gold hedging counterparties.

Jerry

-- Jerry B (skeptic76@errols.com), November 01, 1999.