Finally, the much anticipated T2 games have been selected...

[ROMSET] GAME; TGTS (lives, bonus+extras, diff.) -------------------------------------------------- [ccastles] Crystal Castles (Set 1); 3 lives, 1 @ 70K+every 70K, medium [jrpacman] Jr. Pacman; 3 lives, 1 @ 10K, normal [kungfum] Kung Fu Master; 3 lives, 1 @ 50K, HARD, Energy Loss:slow [ldrun] Lode Runner; 3 lives, timer: slow [lrescue] Lunar Rescue; 3 lives, 1 @ 3000 [pbobble] Puzzle Bobble; Level 4 [pooyan] Pooyan; 3 lives, 1 @ 30K + every 70K, MEDIUM [rastan] Rastan (World); 3 lives, 1 @ 100K, medium, NO continues! [scramble] Scramble; 3 lives, 1 @ 5K + every 10K [trackfld] Track n' Field; 2 lives; 1 ROUND ONLY!!

Note: kungfu, pooyan, trackfld will require dip switch changes. All high scores will be eligible/considered for MAME World Records!

At this time, I'd also like to make a request for judges. Send me an e-mail with at minimum your top three games if you have a preference. First come, first served. You'll judge 1 or 2 games depending on how many judges sign up. Thanks in advance!

IMPORTANT NOTE: ALL T2 GAMES MUST BE PLAYED USING MAME 0.34 FINAL!! No other MAME versions will be accepted.

Pat Laffaye, Tourney Judge

-- ***PL*** (laffaye@ibm.net), October 24, 1999

Answers

Err... I don't think the settings for Scramble are correct. TG settings are: 5 lives, one extra at 10k (not EVERY 10k). But apart from that, the dip switches don't allow you to change it to extra at 5k, nor change it so it gives you an extra life every 10k...

Ben Jos.

-- Ben Jos Walbeehm (walbeehm@walbeehm.com), October 24, 1999.

Um... why has the most controversial game in MARP history in terms of recording validity, been accepted? It's going to take a damn good judge, or one of Zwaxy's leet programs, to determine whether or not people use the Run Like Hell cheat on Track 'N Field. And no doubt some people who don't read this board will be ignorant of the instructions not to use it (unless it's VERY boldly specified with the game settings, I dunno). and even then, some people might have autofire pads... is it really worth all the trouble?

I think another game should be used, but maybe I'm just sore because none of the games I voted got in, sigh ;P

-BBH

-- BBH (lordbbh@aol.com), October 25, 1999.

Why the @?#@#*&&^& do we let in a game like Track and Field in a Tournament? After everything that has been said about this game. Get rid of this game and pick another one.

-- MvdV (cypr135@knoware.nl), October 25, 1999.

I agree, having T&F in the tournament is likely to cause more controversy. I vote for throwing it out and putting in SF2. We need a good fighter and there wasn't one in the previous tournament.

-- Barry Rodewald (bsr@hn.pl.net), October 25, 1999.

Funnily enough, none of my favourite the games got in either...

I really don't want to play T&F in T2, as I've only just got this keyboard :) Seriously, after all the fuss about not wanting it in, how did it get in. Which method was finally used to pick the 10 games? Random?

And how slow will Puzzle Bobble be on my P200? :(

Crash.

-- Crash (crash@tcp.co.uk), October 25, 1999.

Seems that nobody wants T&F in T2....Me too !!!
It will only cause disappointments and polemics....pls remove it and choose (randomly) a new one.
Let me also say that Crystal Castle is a great game, but without trackball will be silly !!!
Cicca

-- Cicca (cicca@writeme.com), October 25, 1999.

I too have an objection to this Track N' Field thing. But my question is this: is there confidence that we can find out people who are using RLH and/or AutoFire? It seems to me that in Pat's opinion, the answer is yes. Zwaxy has seemed to prove it... which is probably why Pat let the game in. Just my opinion... I don't like the decision... but I'll live with it if I have to. :(

-- Gameboy9 (goldengameboy@yahoo.com), October 25, 1999.

Re: T&F--I just wanted to see how you guys would react! It did cross my mind not to include this one because of all the controversy. I felt I was armed with enough info and know the score limits for all the events to detect cheats. The RLH cheat would be very easy to pick up as Zwaxy was cooking up some code. In spite, I will substitute a new game and announce it later today.

Thanks to Ben Jos for pointing out my Scramble error as I mistyped my notes. TGTS settings for Scramble are as follows: start with 5 lives, bonus life at 10K. You will need to change the dip switch.

-- Pat (laffaye@ibm.net), October 25, 1999.

All the games look acceptable to me, I will have a problem with Crystal Castles since I don't have a trackball. My friend does, so I'll try playing at his place.

Track and Field looks like a good tournament game. There just appears to be a problem with what can be used to record. I think I 'm correct in stating that we are not supposed to use rapidfire or cheats in any Tournament recordings.

-- Dave Kaupp (info@kaupp.cx), October 25, 1999.

Crash: I have a Pentium-MMX 225 MHz (overclocked: 3*75), and I get only 15 fps when using the Windows version (36b7), but I get a full 60 fps when playing Puzzle Bobble using the DOS version (34 final) from within Windows...

Barry: I think we already have two fighters: Kung Fu Master and Rastan...

Cicca and Dave Kaupp: I didn't know the Crystal Castles machine had a trackball, but I can play it just fine using a joystick...

Pat: I hope that the Crystal Castles settings you list are default, because none of those settings can be changed through DIP switches. The same goes for "extra @ 50k" in Kung Fu Master, and "extra @ 3000" in Lunar Rescue. Also, Lode Runner gives you an extra life @ 50k, and there's nothing you can do about that...

Ben Jos.

-- Ben Jos Walbeehm (walbeehm@walbeehm.com), October 25, 1999.

T2 Game Substitution: [trackfld] is out, [ssprint] is in...

Super Sprint: Use Default Settings since none can be changed. Play Yellow car only, use 3 drones.

FYI: VERIFIED MAME High Scores for some T2 games... Pooyan 311300 (11); Jr. Pacman 440030 (17); Crystal Castles 613300 (10); Lode Runner 165440 (11); Kung Fu Master 458530; Scramble 370100; Super Sprint 23400

-- Pat (laffaye@ibm.net), October 25, 1999.

Personally, I am still smarting at having to go back in time to MAME34?????? I can see the "cheatability" of DOS Mames of late, but that doesn't mean WinMame players should be taken back to Win34, when it was so buggy it's almost impossible to play.

-- Chris Parsley (cparsley1@hotmail.com), October 26, 1999.

Actually, I think everybody is supposed to use MAME 0.34 final, which would EXCLUDE MAME32 0.34... . Besides, there are no problems at all running the DOS version from a DOS prompt within Windows...

Ben Jos.

-- Ben Jos Walbeehm (walbeehm@walbeehm.com), October 26, 1999.

I don't use dos. If Win32 is out, I guess that takes me out as well.

-- Chris Parsley (cparsley1@hotmail.com), October 26, 1999.

The first message in this thread said MAME34 final. It didn't specify DOS so I'll take that as meaning MAME32 v34 final is ok too. This would just exclude far too many people, myself included, who don't use DOS versions.

I would have thought any version of MAME32 would be ok, not just 34 final, since the "problem" doesn't exist on MAME32 as far as I know.

Mind you stepping back to MAME32 v34 will be fun, since it was a bugridden joyride back then :)

Crash.

-- Crash (crash@tcp.co.uk), October 26, 1999.

All games must be played on any official MAME 0.34 Final for any platform (released 31 Dec '99). That is the DOS (MAME), Windows (MAME32), Mac (MacMAME), *nix (X-MAME) would all be acceptable. For those that really want to go back in time, why not use OS/2 MAME???

-- Pat (laffaye@ibm.net), October 26, 1999.

How do we determine what version an inp file was recorded with?

-- Dave Kaupp (info@kaupp.cx), October 26, 1999.

Ben Jos, Yes, Crystal Castles is played with a trackball on the arcade version. I don't have a problem with the game in the tournament, I just have a problem getting a decent score using a keyboard. :)

-- Dave Kaupp (info@kaupp.cx), October 26, 1999.

I usually don't use DOS versions either, but I found that the MAME 0.34 (so DOS) runs beautifully (and with much higher framerates than the Windows version) from a DOS prompt within Windows. So there's no need to reboot to DOS or anything; simply choose DOS Prompt from the Start menu and run it from there. I don't really see what the big deal is, but like Pat said every 0.34 version for every platform will do.

Ben Jos.

-- Ben Jos Walbeehm (walbeehm@walbeehm.com), October 26, 1999.

Dave: Responding to how to tel the difference between mame34 and not mame34 recordings:

For Non cheaters it's a simple matter of looking at the header, mame34 didn't have a gamename header and mame35 does.

For cheaters trying to remove the header from their mame35 recording and submit it as mame34, it will be very unlikely to playback under mame34 if it was recorded in mame35.

-- Chad (churritz@cts.com), October 27, 1999.

Pat: Here's another one for you: Sometimes in Super Sprint, even if you don't finish first, you get an extra/bonus life/chance/credit, whatever you want to call it, and it will allow you to go on with the game, adding to the score you had. What is the ruling in this case? Stop as soon as you don't finish first? Or go on until "Game over"?

Ben Jos.

-- Ben Jos Walbeehm (walbeehm@walbeehm.com), October 27, 1999.

BenJos: I know you asked Pat, but I know the answer to that question, if you finish second or worse, I believe the game is over according to Twin Galaxies. I've never heard of those special bonuses before though...

-- Gameboy9 (goldengameboy@yahoo.com), October 27, 1999.

GameBoy: I don't know what triggered it. Could be a number of things: Finishing a very close second, best lap time, number of wrenches, etc., or any combination of things. I was very surprised myself when it happened, because I thought the game was over when I came in second.

And just to make sure, it was NOT the "insert coin to continue" scenario, where your score is reset to zero. If I recall correctly, it told me I had a "bonus credit", and it allowed me to play on as if I had finished first (so without resetting my score).

I recorded it, so if you want the .inp to see for yourself...

Ben Jos.

-- Ben Jos Walbeehm (walbeehm@walbeehm.com), October 27, 1999.

Without having seen the INP, you may have picked up a coin. I need to clarify the settings for Super Sprint because default is not the same as TGTS. The ones that must be changed from default are marked *

-- Bonus Coins: NONE -- Difficulty: MEDIUM * -- Obstacles: MEDIUM * -- Wrenches: 3

-- Pat (laffaye@ibm.net), October 27, 1999.

Pat: Hmm... didn't know there were coins to be picked up in the game. I'll watch my recording myself tonight to see.

There was another thing I meant to ask about Super Sprint but forgot: Are we allowed to start on the track of our choice or do we always have to start on a certain track?

Ben Jos.

-- Ben Jos Walbeehm (walbeehm@walbeehm.com), October 27, 1999.

Ben Jos,

Please send me a copy of your [ssprint] inp file. I'm curious now that you've mentioned this. As far as I'm concerned, and I further believe this is supported by TG, if you do NOT finish 1st--that's it, game over. If you continue to play, your score will be lowered to the score at the time you started the next race.

Also, per general T2 rules, if you recieve a bonus game and play it within the same inp, only the first credit score will be accepted.

-- Pat (laffaye@ibm.net), October 27, 1999.

Pat, I have a little problem with that last observation. If the game doesn't require you to coin up, aka, not a "insert coin and press start to continue" circumstance, then it is legit, aka if it goes on without prodding to the next race, it is still valid. If it asks you to insert coin to continue racing, then no.

-- Chris Parsley (cparsley1@hotmail.com), October 27, 1999.

As far as picking the track, I was thinking of choosing Medium (the one at the 3 o'clock position). I was afraid you guys might get pretty bored with the first two or three tracks. However, in the spirit of competition, you can pick any track you want and figure out yourselves what gives you the best results.

-- Pat (laffaye@ibm.net), October 27, 1999.

Chris,

I have to disagree with you. If you don't finish 1st, it's game over right then and there!! This is just like Mr. Do's Wild Ride in T1. Either you got a diamond or didn't. Those that did had an edge.

Everyone would need to know how to get the continue and also this would deviate from TGTS. I won't allow it.

-- Pat (laffaye@ibm.net), October 27, 1999.

I would beg to differ on two counts... One, Mr. Do Wild Ride you had to recoin, and didn't carry points. New game, new TG shot.

Super Sprint (ssprint) if you don't coin up, the game doesn't say game over, its a continuation since it is a normal process of the machine, and WOULD be in the Twin Galaxies rules. JUST like if you would earn an extra life at a certain score...

Now, about your 10% of the leaderboard post, I am sorry, but no matter how hard I try am I ever going to make 10% of Krogman's Galaga score. Does that mean I should never record Galaga? I certainly hope not. While I don't like "lame" recordings along with the next person, if you want a percentage based system, that is what comes along with it. That is why I want to go back to a medal system, to more or less remove the incentive of "lame" recordings. I would, though, still award same points for ties...

-- Chris Parsley (cparsley1@hotmail.com), October 27, 1999.

No Chris, you're wrong!!

Even though the game doesn't say "Game Over" it's over. The game is over when a player does not finish 1st. This game specific rule overrides the general TG game over rule. For a 2nd opinion, just ask Mark Longridge or Ron Corcoran who run TG supported sites.

It's just like Do Wild because players get extra points for an unpredictable event, not how the 2nd game was started up.

Also, I think you'll agree that Galaga is a very rare exception. Does this mean with 10-3-1 scoring, if the top three scores are above 10M you have more of incentive to play and submit? I think not!

-- Pat (laffaye@ibm.net), October 27, 1999.

I went straight to the source of the issue, and talked to Walter Day about Super Sprint. Here is his response...

If every body ahs the same opportunity to proceed at the same stage of the game, then there is no problem. You aren't benefitting from a quirk that other players are being denied. This means that scores are based on players reaching this point and then receiuving the same bre eenlight to go onweard that your getting.

Is my premise correct?

By Walter Day's answer, if it is repeatable, then it is acceptable.

-- Chris Parsley (cparsley1@hotmail.com), October 27, 1999.

Ben Jos: Rastan is more a platform game than a fighter, hardly the same thing as SF. I don't really consider Kung-Fu Master a fighter either, it is hardly the same sort of thing.

-- Barry Rodewald (bsr@hn.pl.net), October 27, 1999.

Dave....play Crystal Castles with the mouse....is not like the trackball, but easier then the keyboard....

Enjoy

Cicca

-- Cicca (cicca@writeme.com), October 28, 1999.

Here's another good reason why DOS Mame is out for some:

WINDOWS NT !!

Dr C.

-- Dr Chip (Dr_Chip_ii@hotmail.com), October 29, 1999.