This is a very serious matter, To the 100,000s of people dads being criminalize for being behind on payments, prisioners not being allowed out after there sentence is served, and various others having their rights being stepped on by over zelous law enforcement officials and arrogant consititution braking judges. Our country is on the brink of the abbyss. Even my conservative 85 year old dad is starting to relize that something is amiss. If we are ever to bring our families through the y2k crisis that is just about here we have to lead by example.

Build your faith in our Lord God almighty by reading his word concerning how we are to conduct our selves thru the trials ahead.

God does not want us to stick our head in the sand concerning the trials and tribulations we are going to face soon. By wise concil you will wage your own war. Discuss with your spouse and family members what you feel could be the fallout from y2k if it turns out that clinton and his cronies are being less than truthfull about this potentially life threating challenge y2k may present. Look at our govt actions lately and feel out wheather you can trust them to give you the facts and nothing but the facts. I Think not. Just ask someone who has had their rights violated if they can trust the govt, the state to follow the rules or the law in a crisis when they dont do it now when no crisis is happening. Y2k preparedness is a decision. just like the jews had to make during the begining of wwII get to high ground or prepare to go to high ground if the facts on the ground change rapidly. Their rights to the presuit of life libery and the presuit of happiness ended when they were put on the trains to the concentration camps. The price of liberty is eternal vigulance. Most of our parents and elders do not recognize what is happening. History is repeating itself. Find friends who are not asleep and work diligently to open up a high ground option if it becomes nessary. You wont be able to be civilly disobedant during y2k, rights will be throw out the window. Best to leave and come back when the dust clears. I expect the blackouts to occur before the new year sometime during the week after Christmas. I pray for all of you reading this forum to have safe passage into the New year and beyond and remember your humanity even if they dont. Corporate fasism is already showing itself for what it is so dont be fooled into compancy. Jesus gave us a model of how to live and be discerning. He is the way the truth the life. By our peacefull faith we will eventually win their hearts. They will get tire of war then want it no more. When that happens we will be able to show them peace. Until then we have to keep peace in our hearts and diligenly prepare for war and choose avoidance if possible. We prepare our horse for the day of battle but deliverance is from the Lord.

-- y2k aware mike (y2k aware mike @ conservation . com), October 23, 1999

Answers

Christianity and Jesus aside, I have heard your message loud and clear and I'm with you.

Peace to you Mike.

-- Chris (#$%^&@pond.com), October 24, 1999.

HI Chris! And y2k aware mike :-) The return of the heavy-hitters :-)

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), October 24, 1999.

Why is it always the dad's fault. We don't do it all... But it is meat for the gov. grinder.....

-- Harpoon (harpoon@u-n-i.net), October 24, 1999.

"To the 100,000s of people dads being criminalize for being behind on payments"

Oh give me a break...if you can't afford to raise children, then don't have them. I don't want to take financial responsibility for someone else's kids.

Condoms are cheaper than kids...use them.

-- Mabel Dodge (cynical@me.net), October 24, 1999.

Yeah, Mabel, that struck me too.

And to that Harpoon character,

It isn't always the dad's fault, but if ya stick yer dick in a crick be a man, and take responsability for your actions. Too many "men" do not, and leave the woman to do it all. If you act like a shit and abandon your kids you ought to get shit on by the law, fair is fair.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), October 24, 1999.

Unc, do you really believe all those dads are deadbeets (sp)? I see a difference between "being behind on payments" and running away from payments alltogether. If you want to go deeper into that issue, we could be sitting here all night debating this. For a start, we could say that any man that ended in divorce made a grave mistake to get married in the first place (and so did the woman.) Lets not get into the condoms.

-- Chris (#$%^&@pond.com), October 24, 1999.

"Corporate fasism is already showing itself for what it is so dont be fooled into compancy" (complacency?)

I agree, and so do many on this forum, so why is everyone complacent? Typing these words on this forum is not going to solve anything unless we finish the creative process by turning our thoughts into actions.

"By our peacefull faith we will eventually win their hearts."

I disagree. Here you basically contradict your first statement by now saying we should remain complacent. There seem to be an awful lot of people who are unhappy with our current form of government, so why don't we change it. All of this talk about using guns against our government is stupid, why don't we just use our brains. Thoughts become actions, and actions become reality. The government is holding our money because it gives them power over us. When we take our money back, we take the power back. The government was created to serve us, and if we don't like what they are doing, then we should not continue to let them use our money to hold power over us. There is nothing illegal about this, it is our money. Y2K may be our last chance to take the power back, because currency will be gone soon and then there will be no hope.

"Find friends who are not asleep and work diligently to open up a high ground option if it becomes nessary."

There are a lot of people on this forum who are not asleep, so why don't we seek the "high ground". The high ground is where we will be if we allow our highest thoughts to become our actions, and then reality. Jesus set an example by not allowing himself to be put down by fear, by demonstrating our true power with his actions. Jesus did not teach us to sit around and allow ourselves to be controlled by fear.

-- @ (@@@.@), October 24, 1999.

Chris,

I find it Ironic that someone writes about shredding the Constitution and "dads being criminalize for being behind on payments" in the same post.

Freedom is responsibility, if you want your freedom then don't force the government to be big daddy. Make your payments and make them on time. That's what being a responsible adult is all about.

Your rights end where mine begin, I am not responsible for your kids, and I resent using my tax dollars to raise them.

-- Mabel Dodge (cynical@me.net), October 24, 1999.

I agree 100% that you're not responsible for my kids Mabel, and shouldn't be made to be by your tax dollars. Men, as well as women, are responsible for their kids. Being responsible adults is for both sides, and my point is that fathers and mothers should think about what responsibility means before having kids, and if they choose to divorce, settle the problem of paying for the kids' wellfare among themselves as much as possible and not let the government intervene.

"Being behind" in payments doesn't automaticly means that one has forsaken the responsibility of paying their dues. What Y2K Aware Mike was saying (as I understand it) is that the government is way too much in our affairs, and dads that are "behind in payments" are automatic criminals, when some of them are temporarily down on their luck for whatever reason, out of a paycheck. Some dads ARE deadbeets for sure, but not all are. I think we agree, we probably understood Y2K Mike differently.

-- Chris (#$%^&@pond.com), October 24, 1999.

Way to go Mabel! Deadbeat dads should be shown no mercy. Hang em' all as far as I'm concerned. (don't mistake this with dads who are desperately trying to make ends meet.)

-- haha (haha@haha.com), October 24, 1999.

thanks chris Mabel is a moron, I tried to illuminate a serious issue in this country. # 1 you dont pay for any ones children #2 if you were a hard working parent who fell behind in a few payments and are supporting two families then you could open your trap. Until then keep your trap shut. The libery of many hard working non-custodial parents both men and women are seriously at risk because of facism policies that are ripping this country a new behind. When y2k strikes it will move up oppression a couple of knoches. You may have it fat now but when they turn the consitution shreader your way you will see how it feels. Dads love their children and have been character assinated by a facist corp controled media that is bent on creating slavery in this country. Wake up a smell the coffee. We dont have freedom of the press anymore.

-- y2k aware mike (y2k aware mike @ conservation . com), October 24, 1999.

I am as concerned about Y2K as the next person and generally your post is on the mark, but this thing about child support really is giving me a problem too. These men who fall behind because they fall on hard times are sometimes wrongly incriminated, it's true, but I feel they are in the minority of people whose rights are being infringed upon. If married people could work out their problems, there wouldn't be the need for divorce. Also, as a hard working single mother who's been in court watching others fight for child support, I'd say that the majority who were there were either avoiding paying or trying to use personal situations that were entered into AFTER the child was born in order to lessen their obligation to that child. The whole thing smacks of irresponsibility. If these men paid on a timely basis and without a struggle, there would be no question of whether or not the finger needed to be pointed at them. Love doesn't pay the bills and make no mistake, when Y2K shuts down the system, many of those men won't be tripping over themselves to make sure the payments (even reduced if there is a lessening of income) get to their destination. They will treat it as a relief from a burden, much like we would act if our credit card bills suddenly stopped arriving, or the mail to make those payments was no longer running. Yes, there are men who are responsible. Yes, there are men who can't be as responsible as they'd like to be. However, many of the "men who leave" are trying to leave that responsibility. Some run and some pay out of guilt feelings as is my case. He's got family who would be ashamed of him if he didn't pay. I expect for my times to get even harder come January because if the system fails, even though he's in the next county, that will be the end of child support until some system is functioning enough to make him pay again. Hopefully, I'm wrong about him. Hopefully, other fathers will be more thoughtful. But lets not defend these men as part of Y2K. They have created their situations and to make light of the situation is to make more difficulties for the custodial parents, usually the mothers, usually already having it tough enough.

As for preparing, I'm doing that. As for hoping things will be okay and not necessarily trusting the government to tell me what to expect or help me afterwards, I'm doing that as well. I'm taking care now to provide for my family no matter what the situation later. Thank God for my child support payments and that my car was repossessed last year when they stopped coming. Now I can afford to make those preparations that will help us through the new year.

-- Kricket (kricket@csionline.net), October 24, 1999.

Dead beat dads and ripping the Constitution are miles apart. The Constitution stands for law and order in society. Dead beat dads are for destroying society-- starting with lack of fulfilling their-- GOD given responsibility-- AND LEGAL RESPONSIBILITY to care for their minor children.

My ex is over $40,000.00 behind and has used every excuse in the book for over 6 (SIX) years!

I am custodial parent and full time caregiver of our child -----WHEN HAVE---- I -----EVER GOTTEN OFF SAYING TO MY CHILD SORRY KID YOU DON'T GET DINNER TONIGHT BECAUSE I HAVE OTHER THINGS I WOULD RATHER DO WITH MY MONEY THAN FULFILL MY RESPONSIBILILTY TO YOU BY PAYING FOR YOUR FOOD, YOUR LIGHTS, YOUR CLOTHES, YOUR GAS TO TAKE YOU WHERE YOU NEED TO GO, YOUR MEDICAL BILLS, YOUR SHOES FOR A FOOT THAT GROWS INTO A NEW SIZE EVERY 4 MONTHS LATELY, FOR YOUR SCHOOL SUPPLIES, FOR YOUR MEDICAL SUPPLIES, FOR THE FIREWOOD TO HEAT THE HOUSE, ETC. ETC. ETC.

----I CARE FOR MY CHILD'S DAILY CARES -PLUS PLUS, PLUS, PLUS, PLUS, SO DON'T EXPECT ME TO LISTEN TO WHINING ABOUT YOU CAN NOT ----AFFORD---- TO PAY YOUR PAYMENTS. I AND MILLIONS OF OTHER WOMEN DAILY HAVE TO ------FIND--------THE MONEY TO MAKE SURE THE CHILDREN ARE CARED FOR WHETHER WE ARE SICK, OUT OF A JOB, HAVE UNEXPECTED EXPENSES OR WHAT EVER, THOSE SETBACKS COME INTO ---EVERONES---LIVES YET WE DO NOT SHIRK ----OUR--- RESPONSIBILITY. ---WE WOULD BE PUT IN JAIL FOR CHILD NEGLECT IF WE DID--------- SO------- WHAT MAKES YOU ANY DIFFERENT THAT YOU SHOULD NOT BE SUBJECT TO -----------THE LAW THAT SAYS YOU ---MUST ----SUPPORT YOUR MINOR CHILDREN!!!!!!

GROW UP WHINER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OBO

-- OBO (susanwater@excite.com), October 24, 1999.

Every divorce has a different story...OBO. Was it your idea to file it? Was he abusive/druggie/cheating etc.?? Or was it like mine..."no fault" she "just doesn't love me anymore". I swear I never hit her, didn't drink/do drugs, had no affairs. For about four out of the six years we were married she didn't have to work out of the home. When she got a job it was supposed to be for the extras she wanted that we couldn't afford. So she buys a new car and lets it go back to repo. Yet "I ruined her credit"! Within days of filing the divorce she moved 70 miles north to "be close to her parents" taking my kids with her. Throughout our marriage she had told me of horror stories of the abuse she suffered at their hands. (She claims theyve changed) She moved in with a man I have found out is a convicted felon (Drugs)and before the divorce was even final he had slapped her while they were out partying on a weekend I got my pathetic "visitation" so she calls me for a ride home. I have a six year old girl and four year old boy in this enviroment. Now I am "Uncle Dad" seeing my kids on wednesdays for three hours and every other weekend. I have a microscopic construction company...make an OK living, faithfully pay my support, and have never missed my visitation. BUT Construction is reputed to be one of the least prepared industries. Even remodeling suffers greatly in a down economy. I did not want the divorce, and made the mistake of fighting it for a while. I was hoping to work it out. I love my kids and still did/do a little her. (hard to explain why I still love her) So now she hates me, and even if we were in another Great Depression would not hesitate to have me jailed if possible. Of course she got the kids...."maternal presumption" they call it. Yet in a really bad enviroment I could provide better for them. I have a country place, small garden, fruit trees, room for some chickens etc. My father was a farm-boy during the Great Depression and said they lived just fine...just "had no money" But even with all the danger my kids are in, Iv'e been told it would be next to impossible for me to ger custody. I worry about my children and her night and day.

-- Dan (suijuris@freewwweb.com), October 24, 1999.

My wife and I spent more than a decade serving child support papers on "deadbeat dads". Many were no more "deadbeat" than the mothers who were given public funds to support their habits. The men who had truly refused to live up to their obligations seldom paid anyway, while the ones who had merely fallen on hard times, often as a result of having the majority of their income taken from them, were harrassed and pursued unmercifully. Any monies recovered were taken by the government and given out to "the children". Child Protective Services is a typical government agency - run by "true believers" like those in the EPA, BLM, etc, who view the people as a resource and, too often, an enemy. The original post was about the government intruding into ares of our lives that it has no business or legal right authority. Be it assets forfeiture or fixed sentencing for drug related offenses, we are losing our freedom to a government that exists largely for it's own well being.

-- michael frazier (mfrazier@pacific.net), October 24, 1999.

you are kidding, right? you are mixing statements about "dad's rights being taken away because they are behind on child support" with Christian words? doesn't compute? the bible tells us very clearly that our first obligation is to our family. regardless of whether you live with them--they are the "fruit of your loins" and need financial support to live. some judge obviously was acting as god's authority when he/she set the amount of support. if you lose a job and can't pay, you can always get it changed but you have to go through the system. a person cannot just tell a custodial parent "ooops, i lost my job" because not all non-custodial parent's are trustworthy unfortunately.

and why is this system here??--not because the government is trying to meddle in our lives but because there were too many "irresponsible" parents who were forcing their children to live on welfare or above/near the poverty line because they weren't supporting them. they would jump from state to state to avoid being caught. WELL kiddos, this law was needed. something had to be done at the federal level to help states find these "hopscotching" parents and it has VERY SUCCESSFULLY. plus, it was another way to get people off the welfare roll and have parents take responsibility for supporting (and some states have programs to try to encourage relationships/emotional involvement as well) their children.

nothing happens in our lives by accident. sometimes if we are not faithful in the smaller things that god has given us--he will use an earthly authority with a big stick to teach us to be faithful. maybe instead of whining you should ask god--what did you do and how can you fix it first. then maybe things will get better and the govt will leave you alone.

-- tt (cuddluppy@singlemother.com), October 24, 1999.

Dan,

Yes every marriage and divorce is different but that has nothing to do with if a parent should support their children. Parents are responsible for their children. --- I am happy to know you are supporting your children. --- If by chance you do fall on hard times, please, always make the payment to them top priority, even if your lights are turned off and you have to live on tuna fish and crackers for weeks. You see I get very angry that my daughter has had to have the kind of life she has from only getting the financial support from one parent, her mom. She did not have to have such a hard life as she has had at times, if her dad would have been adult and accepted his responsiblity and helped support her.

It might make the moms angry but ----it hurts the children and eventually they too get angry when they get to the teen years and realize they could have more of the things the other kids have, if only dad would send the child support. They are not stupid they realize there would be more money to do the things they want to do if the child support came.

I have kept the roof over my childs head, fed her (though certainly not the kinds of foods she would have liked) clothed her though not in the style that the other kids wear (very important in middle school). She has had it harder than most children in our area due to the financial strain of only one income in the home and no child support. She was recently in tears because her class is taking a major field trip ($250.00), all the kids are going but her and I did not have the money to cover her expenses to let her go. Yes, she cried for two days and then got her tough mind frame back and realized life does go on even when you don't get to do all the same things all the other kids get to do. We have had our share of difficulties in life many others will never experience (unless Y2K is bad that is). In 92 bad recession the company I worked for was bought out and replaced all managers so I was out of work for months, a year later I had medical difficulties with surgery and the company I had not worked for long let me go (had not built up sick leave or such). A year later my child broke right leg in three places while riding a bike at the sitters, I had to be out with her several days and take her to the doctor every two weeks and company got tired of it so let me go (yeah there are some heartless business people out there). Of course each time it takes time to find work again and the finances are all messed up and savings disapear very fast. In an effort to increase our finances I went into business for myself (without enough capital) and it failed so out of work after that. The well pump went out this summer and it was a nightmare to try to get it and all the pipes out alone and we had to hand draw all our water and haul it into the house, heat it for every use (about 25 gallons per day) for over a month until I could get the money to fix it, fortunately, an Uncle came to our rescue and hired a guy to install all new system in well. Water pipes have frozen at least 3 winters from using only firewood to heat (its cheaper than LP Gas) so we have been without running water several times until I could replace the pipes (after the first time I got the hang of glue and PVC sticking all over my hands:-) and it is difficult to funtion with no running water.

So, why am I saying all this? The reason I am saying this is in hopes that if there is a deadbeat dad out there---- don't just get angry and think SHE has the kids and the good life and all I do is pay money I will pay her back and not send the money. EVERY person has difficulties that come in their lives you do not need to add to it by being rotten, this will hurt YOUR children do you really want to HURT your children? I hope you can let your anger go and be man enough to set --your desires of revenge-- aside for the best interest of your children.

My best to you Dan and hopefully your wife will someday realize you love her and that you are a good man and come back to you so all of you can be happy and safe again.

It is my personal belief that just not loving someone is not a reason to divorce (sorry about the double negatives). I believe you-- choose -- to love people. Sure the physical desire can diminish, (can we say you get use to the all the moves so the excitement is no longer there) but love and committment is different. You can choose to love and be committed to a good person even if the "excitement is gone" the "excitement" leaves most relationships after about three years but it is not a good idea to change out the old partner, for a new partner every three years. Marriage is "committment" and building a life together not just sex. (Now, In saying that, I am not condeming good sex;-) in marriage)

obo

-- Onebyone (susanwater@excite.com), October 24, 1999.

tt you said it all perfectly! IMHO if you have kids they come first, there is no excuse to be "a little behind" in payments.

You want freedom? Grow up and take responsibility, then you can have your freedom.

-- Mabel Dodge (cynical@me.net), October 24, 1999.

I thought this thread was going to discuss this problem with our constitution being destroyed, and it appears I walked into the middle of the Jerry Springer show. Silly me. As usual, it seems the sheeple have more important things to waste their time with.

-- @ (@@@.@), October 24, 1999.

Personally, I despise the Jerry Springer Show and am a bit insulted to feel as if my comment is included in the comparison. Almost as insulted as I felt when I got the impression that my ex not paying his son's child support in a timely manner without a push by the system makes him one of the people whose constitutional rights are being shredded. What I'm hoping is that Mike used a poor example in his list of peoples who have been wronged by the government...and not that he is a father who's cranky about having to pay child support or that he is in support of those who feel they are getting the shaft on that account by the system. I am obviously not alone in feeling that if these fathers had the right to have the children, they have a legal obligation to support them. I'm one of the lucky ones who actually gets the support. Perhaps the government guidelines regarding support amounts need to be restructured. I'm sure that's the case with a lot of governmental problems. But lets not be flip about the responsibilities of these men (or women) as regards their constitutional rights.

-- Kricket (kricket@csionline.net), October 24, 1999.

I, myself pay child support for my youngest son who lives with his father (my 2nd husband). I am a woman> I am not less of a woman because my youngest son, who is his father's only child,father has primary custody. I am tired of all those women who whine about not getting child support and go on welfare. When my EX and I divorced,I had to still raise my 5 older children by my first husband who was deceased. So I am paying child support and raising my own children at a lower living standard than that of their youngest half brother. I have faith, God will provide.

-- Sunni (Sunniflwr9@aol.com), January 16, 2000.

Just want to take the opportunity to say:

divorced in 1993 STOP

wife of 20 years decided she liked women, STOP

wife got every material thing, STOP

husband (me) traded every material thing for kids STOP

wife decided not to pay child support STOP

how does one put the kids mother in jail? STOP

one doesnt, STOP

Folks it ain't just deadbeat dads, OK? There are one heck of a lot of deadbeat mom's out there these days.

-- Michael Erskine (Osiris@urbanna.net), January 16, 2000.

obo; Do you really believe it is fair for the school to make plans for a field trip that costs a weeks pay for someone working at minimum wage? Is this really reasonable in the first place?

God help us all, the educational system has us. It is the new religion, playing on your guilt if you don' build them their new ivory tower. They can't teach half as well as the teachers I had in the sixties, but they really do need that new fiber optic network, and those $250.00 per head field trips.

I have a better idea, slap a teacher back to reality today.

-- Michael Erskine (Osiris@urbanna.net), January 16, 2000.

There is no reason to have kids that are not wanted. There is a medical procedure called abortion, if the Vatican Roulette or the rubber fails. But then, many people are religious, so they suffer the unnecessary consequences of their stupid beliefs. And then, most people, having no more foresight than cats, dogs, rats, drop their own litters with no more forethought than those so-called lower animals.

Anyone that pleaded for an abortion, and were prevented by LAW, have my sympathy. Those that didn't have them for "religious" reasons and are now stuck -- BWAAHAAHAAA. A woman that has kids with no idea of how she is going to provide for them BY HERSELF if something goes wrong is just f*ing stupid. Yes, that means most women.

-- A (A@AisA.com), January 16, 2000.