Well not being a person who sits and waits (formerly a teacher and a nurse) I took it upon myself to make my neighbors aware of the y2k problem. I found deaf ears. Now they avoid me and think I have lost it. That does not concern me my self worth is intact. What bothers me is now they know I prepared and they will not be should the expected problems occur. Other than making my home a fortress which I can not do. I live in a small town with approx 3000 people. What suggestions does anyone have for my own protection as I know when it comes down to panic and survival people get irrational. I am a pacifist and do not suscribe to violence of any kind but will they to be so? I am concerned. I have not found one person in my neighborhood that has a clue as to the enormity of the problem or even sees any problem at all. They insist it is hype and scare tatics. They respond surely if this were to happen we would know. Or they say there are many agencies out there ready to help as in any disaster. Then they add I or we dont think there will be any problems. I am now concerned for my own safety.

-- Susan E. Barrett (sue59@bellsouth.net), October 22, 1999

Answers

I cannot believe that a former teacher wrote this illiterate cow-flop. No wonder the country is in such dire straits. By the way, your neighbors are right about you

"So, of course I want to see y2k bring down the system, all over the world. I have hoped for this all of my adult life." -- Gary North

-- Y2K Pro (y2kpro1@hotmail.com), October 22, 1999.

make another round of the neighbors and get it across to them that they were right and you were wrong. Tell them that you gave all your preps to the food bank. Taz

-- Taz (Taz@aol.com), October 22, 1999.

Susan: Do you like to mudwrestle?

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), October 22, 1999.

Taz is right on the money. Make it clear that you were wrong and that you have nothing anybody would want. Borrow stuff from them that you don't need. If that doesn't work, you'll have no choice but to buy a gun and be ready to use it.

-- (its@coming.soon), October 22, 1999.

Y2k Pro: So, what's your point as noted in your comment above! If you can't understand the concept of reasonably preparing for the unknown, then go to another forum to be negative to people who believe in this concept. If you want to give advice and its of the opposite viewpoint, at least give us some reasoning behind your thoughts.

-- thomas saul (thomas.saul@yale.edu), October 22, 1999.

A town of 3000 people.....rural, ag area perhaps? In NYC or LA I'd be concerned but I think this food shortage thing is being overhyped in rural America. Grain price hit 30 year lows recently. Why? Because were swimming in excessive stocks. Granted much of the grain elevator stocks are full of feed grain. But in a pinch people are gonna make do. Consider all the cattle, hogs and even deer throughout the countryside. I think the towns of 3000 are mostly gonna pull together if its a +6.

-- Downstreamer (downstream@bigfoot.com), October 22, 1999.

who IS this guy y2kpro??? i guess every forum has its designated asshole.

susan, you keep preparing but keep it to yourself. you're doing the right thing. but DO prepare to protect yourself. its not a matter of being a pacifist or nonviolent .. self protection is a right and a duty.

-- lou (lanny1@ix.netcom.com), October 22, 1999.

Susan, If you are concerned about your safety, at the very least, get a big dog or two to help deter unwanted visitors.

If you see Y2K-HO at your door, use the mossberg first and ask questions later.

-- Bill (bill@tinfoil.com), October 22, 1999.

It depends on the location. In rural North Carolina (and to a slightly lesser extent in the cities), unless your grandmothers went to school with their grandmothers, you are an outsider and pretty much fair game. (Read North Carolinian Clyde Edgerton who chronicles this characteristic very well.) In my decades of living in this country, I have only encountered this problem in the last six years--since we have lived in NC, although it probably exists elsewhere. I know it does in many small English villages.

Taz is right on the mark--start borrowing a cup of sugar or two cups of flour or whatever, saying you did have some supplies put away but you've used them up because the Y2K problem has been solved. Also put away some clothing one size larger; that way, if TSHTF you can wear it and look as if you've lost weight from food rationing!

And take an NRA course, learn how to use a gun. After that you may decide you ought to have one. In this day and age you should not be unprotected in your home. Home invasion crimes are on the increase, even if other types of crime are down. I grew up in a country where guns are not a part of daily life, was very much against guns in the home. But we finally broke down and bought a shotgun a year ago.

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), October 22, 1999.

Well since you are in a small town best bet I think would be to make friends fast when TSHTF. I suggest that you cook up BIG pots of beans and ask your nicest neighbors or locals to come over to eat. Being your now a food source (and tell them you're gonna share till its gone , but hold some food back for yourself) they will think you're the nicest woman and keep the crazies away from you.

-- Stacia (ClassyCwgl@aol.com), October 22, 1999.

We live in a pretty densely populated suburb of Dallas, but in a really tucked away subdivision, and just recently discovered, in talking to my neighbors, that almost no one will be home that night! Both of our next door neighbors are going to be out partying, the people across the street just moved out b/c the mortgage company foreclosed on their house, the people on one side of them have had a sitter lined up for their two boys for a year now, the people on the other side of them moved out a month ago, the house is for rent, but no takers yet. All over my street, people are going to be out partying the night away. I can't figure out if that is good or bad. We have never spoken to our neighbors about our preps, we have talked about Y2K just in a way to gauge their reaction and when every single last one of them just rolled their eyes and laughed, we did, too. I have felt bad about that, but my first obligation is to my family and their protection.

-- Preparing (preparing@home.com), October 22, 1999.

Susan,

This is a pretty common topic here and has been discussed a few times. I've had the same problem: Trying to inform my neighbors so they can prepare, and being met with silly smirks and comments that they'd just come to my house, eat my food, take my generator, etc.

I bought a few extra 50 pound bags of rice (only about $13 each at Sam's), and some extra 6 gallon water storage containers and food buckets, in addition to what I wanted for myself. If or when people show up then I will be ready and willing to SELL or BARTER with them for any supplies I am willing to part with, based on my estimate of the severity of the situation at the time.

Since you are the one who prepared, the decision of what to SELL and for how much should be completely on your terms. I would also recommend that you get a firearm and learn to use it, so that you can back up your decisions. If it were to ever get to a point where people had to beg for food (I think unlikely, but possible), I'm sure there will be plenty of people around that will be more than willing to steal or use violence to get what they want, and anyone who prepared in advance will be at risk.

-- Clyde (clydeblalock@hotmail.com), October 22, 1999.

If everybody just ignored Y2Kpro like he deserves, he'd be talking to invisible people like the psychotic troll that he is.

-- (Flakygirl@home.now), October 22, 1999.

Since your a pacifist, start stocking up for your neighbors. I would say a couple hundred pounds of rice and beans should get them off your back for a while. When that's gone, looks like you'll be sharing what you have left for yourself. In a town of 3,000 and with your loose lips, you don't have too many options.

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), October 22, 1999.

>I am a pacifist and do not suscribe to violence of any kind but will they to be so?

"...but will they be so to?"

Are they pacifists now?

Do you think there are any possible events in the future that will cause them to become pacifists?

What are you willing to pay to maintain you belief?

The price may be very painfull.

-Greybear, who hopes not. My God, how he hopes not.

-- Never before have so many hoped so much to be so wrong.

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), October 22, 1999.

Susan, go to the archives for this forum and its sister forum TimeBomb2000 Preparation Forum. You will find a huge number of very valuable suggestions about ways of protecting yourself and your home, as well as arguments for the necessity of self defense. I, too, was a pacifist who didn't believe in any form of violence...until I was raped. You, too, need to view your stance on this subject, looking at it AS IF you had been. Would you still not obtain a means of self defense after that? That may help you to think of your own life as being very precious...enough to defend.

-- Elaine Seavey (Gods1sheep@aol.com), October 22, 1999.

***

Susan,

Your problem is not impossible.

First, Do you have any relatives or friends elsewhere who understand the nature of the y2k problem? If so, plan on moving to their location, if it is safer.

Second, current estimates are that one to three percent of the population is preparing. I doubt the accuracy of that estimate, at least in my area. Checkers at the grocery stores say that many people are buying large quantities of storeable items and have been doing so for months, quietly. They also say that the people buying storeable foods are not saying anything at all about their reason, unless asked first. In short they are keeping a low profile. Many of your neighbors may have also stocked-up quietly to avoid being stigmatized. Ask your local grocer to please put up signs for recommended preparation purchases, ask him to hand out checklists and offer specials on y2k items. Ask your pastors to get the congregations to put aside food supplies as a project for those who will lose their jobs and for the elderly who may be in need, if something goes wrong. In short, find others who can help relieve your burden.

Third, as a pacifist, you must realize that if the situation gets desperate, you must become invisible. No cooking odors. No noise. No lights. No signs of activity, whatsoever. Rescind your warnings to others and keep your head down. Strength is in not being noticed. Strength is in numbers. A dog is still man's best friend. Develop some partners to move in with you, people who know how to use a shotgun. Additional information is available on the subject of survival strategies elsewhere if you look for it. (Note: use lots of duct tape and cardboard to seal off light from one room. This can be a place to have a light at night, if you are very careful. The smallest pinhole will look like a spotlight from outside. Try it now and test it during the daylight. If it's so dark that you cannot see your hand in front of your face, then you did it right.)

Fourth, keep looking for alternatives. There will be some big economic bumps before the end of the year, which may wake up a few people. Get a copy of a simple checklist that can be quickly implemented to give to the late preparers. Y2K may not knock the legs out from under the country in an instant or at all. The effect may be slow enough to cause a lot of last minute preparations.

Please note, some people on this forum may find fault with some of these suggestions. They aren't perfect. But do the best that you can. Read all of the other posts in this thread or any other thread that seems relevant.

Don't give up.

Remember: We are our own worst enemy.

Proper planning and preparation prevents pee-poor performance.

Good luck and pray for guidance.

***

-- no talking please (breadlines@soupkitchen.gov), October 22, 1999.

Is chem-spray against your morals? How about a nice shot of hair spray right between the eyes?

-- Betty Alice (Barn266@aol.com), October 22, 1999.

Twp problems here, asI understand.

The first is your concern about your neighbors - that they have rejected your efforts to train them and get them to prepare against uncertainty and potential problems - remember, nobody can "guarantee" that there will be massive failures, or even minor failures, in any given city or twon. Most likely though, there will be unpredictable failures in some/many/most/almost all areas affecting unpredictable things for unpredictable amounts of time in unpredictable ways.

However, your neighbors appear to have rejected your opinions - that is their choice. Love them for themselves as people, and do the best you can to help them if major problems occur, but you no longer have a "responsibility" to care and support them at the expense of your own life and safety.

Your own comfort? - Well, that probably can be sacrificed to help, if you choose to do so. Sacrifice safety? No. That should not be sacrificed.

perhaps - if worst case comes up: when a person comes to the door asking for help - give it if you can, but require a service or a trade in exchange. they have two hands and two feet - make them clean the driveway of snow. request they cut firewood for you. Or loan them your (hand) saw - don't waste gas by giving them your gas and chainsaw - and letting them cut the trees on their property for their firewood.

Loan them matches, if you have some to give. If not, in their tinder and wood, create a fire to let them re-start a fire in their fireplace.

the posts above that recommend donating or disguising your food to "fend off" moochers may or may not work....this brings up your second problem. the implied threat of your previously warned neighbors becoming alerted to your preparations and becoming (progressively worse) neighbors, borrowers, moochers, thieves, attackers, looters.

The dilemna has has been with us for a whole, and it is at the core of the social disruptions likely if infrastructure disruptions last increasingly longer periods of time. Failures lasting only a few hours will probably not cause this level of neighborly disruption and "corruption of the innocent" into thieves or looters. However, loger periods bring increasingly likelihood amounts of troubles.

To that end, remember that a "pacifist" defines a person who loves peace, who wishes for peace and tranquility between all people, and who works to maintain that level of peace.

A pcifist IS NOT one who lies in the road in front of a mob saying - "Run over me, steal my food, and rape my wife, and torture my children. I give up - you are a mob and I will do nothing to disturb you. You are a mob and I will surrender my life to you (the mob) in hopes you will do nothing to me and my family."

Doesn't work. The Jews in Europe, the Ukrainians, the Serbs, the Croates, the Chinese in Shanghia, the innocent Armenians in Turkey, the Greeks opposing Communism after WWII were murdered for their presence. They were murdered without effective resistance. They were still murdered.

A mob is NOT peace-loving, and cannot be resisted by laying down in fornt of it.

---

-- Robert A. Cook, PE (Marietta, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), October 22, 1999.

Susan: You know what they call pacifists in times of turmoil? Dead.

-- A (A@AisA.com), October 22, 1999.

When gun stores are cleared in a month or so, it will not be the present gun owners doing the buying. They already have what they think necessary. The stores will be cleared by pacifists, by first-time gun buyers who thought they were against gun ownership, by people who today are horrified at the idea of a gun in their house.

They'll buy all the ammo, too.

-- bw (home@puget.sound), October 22, 1999.

Susan, here is another thought. A quick read and perhaps containing some of your answers. The book by Massad Ayoob, a former policeman who teaches police and others marksmanship, and who has written eight or so books, deals with all sorts of self-protection methods, and their legality, etc. You can go to amazon.com and order "The Truth About Self-Protection" for only $7.99 and have it in a very few days.

-- Elaine Seavey (Gods1sheep@aol.com), October 22, 1999.

My comment on gun shops shouldn't be taken as a recommendation, it's just what I expect will happen.

I've said repeatedly that your best defense comes from living with a cooperating group of people who are prepared. I've also advised against buying weapons purely for Y2k, if you aren't already familiar with them. If you choose to arm yourself, take a class in weapon safety and make sure your family knows how to stay safe - how to decock and unload a gun.

The bunker mentality is high-risk, but for some it is their only possible course. Susan, you cannot hold your home against all your neighbors, if it came to that. But you and some neighbors could be safe, if you work together. They do not get it now, but they may get it in minutes when the right lesson is presented to them. Perhaps you should look less at preps and more at character.

A couple courses of action: (1) Buy a beater camper or big truck, load it with all you can, and go team up with a GI friend in another location. (2) Find out who in your town is dependable, honorable, preferably armed, and has useful post-y2k skills or attributes, and when TSHTF you team up with them. (3) Figure out what skills you have that make it worth your town's while to protect you, and enhance those skills in the VERY short time you have. [Susan - a nurse is worth feeding! Get medical preps, you know better than I.] (4) Start a garden now (because now you can get gas for a tiller) and prep the ground as much as possible. Buy seeds for what bears well in your area and is low-maintenance if possible. Also get canning equipment, jars, lots of lids.

Pack a Bugout Bag and plot your best course out of town, if needed. If your neighbors took everything, where would you go? Can you walk there? Starting now, work yourself into the best physical condition that you can. Get new walking shoes; get an extra pair.

Susan - you sound like a leader, your neighbors sound like followers. You have a chance to guide them in the coming chaos, to give coherence to events that will seem totally incoherent to them. That alone can make you invaluable to them, preps aside. Take the opportunity and you might become the center of a tribe forming around you. You could do worse.

-- bw (home@puget.sound), October 22, 1999.

Susan,

Some good advise on this thread - DO let on to your neighbors that you changed your mind/gave it all away, but don't assume they'll all believe you. In a town that size, all 3000 residents know that you have prepared. For pity's sake, DON'T "cook up a pot of beans & ask the locals over to eat" after the rollover - sorry, but that could be the last thing you ever do alive. You can also be sure you're probably the only "pacifist" in town, so where does that leave you?

bw has good thoughts, but sort through them and use your head. bw seems to expect creating a group of prepared people to be a part of is easy, and believes in man's humanity more than man deserves. In practise, at this late date, you already know that failed.

If you won't consider a gun, get a baseball bat, an iron fireplace poker, a short 2 X 4, a good steel butcher knife. No? Too bloody? Too violent? Then for god's sake, get a shotgun. Fast. Spraying a starving looter with anything - bug spray, tobasco, I don't care what, that is so often mentioned by some of our posters, is totally nuts. It will only make him mad enough to kill you. I've been told that few things frighten a thug like a very scared woman pointing a gun at him. Don't know if it's right or not. Sounds good. I like it. Get the gun.

I've been advised myself to get a large mean dog from time to time. Won't say if I did or not. Good advice. Here's more: You used your whole name on this post - please don't do that any more with posts of this nature, anywhere. I'll assume it's a false name. Don't give out information anywhere that you have identified yourself. Guess that's all I have to add. Re-read what Robert Cook wrote above.

Your life IS precious, and I hope you'll start right now to protect it.

God bless you.

-- Scat (sgcatique@webtv.net), October 22, 1999.

Scat, sorry if that was not clear or perhaps too rosy.

You cannot create a group of prepped people out of thin air. But you CAN create a group of cooperating people if they can see the value in cooperating. Fear is one motivator, but it can be tricky. The stored food may be a small part of the total resources in that group. Other resources include skills, placement (rural), self-defense ability, defensive location, arable land, water source, etc.

As for the better angels of our nature, well, that seems to last about three days. So you have maybe that long to forge a hierarchy out of a mob, to figure out how to discipline those who get out of line. You have less than that to figure out how to fend off those who are already planning for havoc.

There is little rosy about the next few months, that I can see.

-- bw (home@puget.sound), October 22, 1999.

I think lots more people have done some from of preps than have outright admitted to doing so. Many people don't want to look foolish or alternatively, don't want to be targeted by others.

someone has been buying all those cans of food on sale, the plastic storage bins, oil lamps, etc- and it can't be just the TB forum people can it??

-- farmer (hillsidefarm@drbs.com), October 22, 1999.

Susan .... Unless I missed it, no one told you the easiest one of all to avoid trouble and remain a pacifacist. I'm sure we will be seeing a large number of GIs in the last week of December and be sure the problems are starting. So, being a nurse (former ?) , just post quarantine (Sp ? ) signs for a well known disease on the mailbox, lawn, and house advising people that you have THE highly contagous , hamoragic fever, E-boli or flesh eating bacteria . You might even call a few neighbors and ask THEM to leave food for you at the door. That will get the tongues wagging , as my town used to be 3000 pop. a long time ago and I still remember . Get started before Dec. 31 , while the phones STILL function . Good luck ... you won't need , if you try this; I'm sure ! Eagle

-- Hal Walker (e999eagle@freewwweb.com), October 22, 1999.

From: Y2K, ` la Carte by Dancr (pic), near Monterey, California

Don't lie to them about how seriously you are concerned about Y2K. This is highly unethical. You're probably going to have to lie, but don't lie about that. Maybe you can tell them that you decided that the situation was so serious that you will not be staying here for New Years Eve, and have decided to go stay with your long lost aunt on her huge acrage (or something like that). That you are helping her to stock up, or took all your stuff there, if the neighbors already saw your stuff. Hide your stuff. Take it offsite before telling them it's gone, if necessary. Put it in a storage locker if you can't come up with something better. Then, give several of them the phone number where you can be reached, which will be a co-operating friend, or a dead number, or some number of your own at a friend's house, rigged to ring back to you at home. Lock yourself in the house. Give every indication that nobody is home. Don't cook or turn on so much as a flashlight. Don't even use your electricity or water meter. Have a gun. And try not to go crazy.

-- Dancr (addy.available@my.webpage), October 23, 1999.