Home Defense Question, "Part Two"

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To follow up on the poster who asked about home defense with a shotgun: my question has been about an apartment with cinder block walls behind the wallboard in between apartments. What shot would or would not richochet dangerously to the home defender? What, if anything, could conceivably go through cinder block? (Hoping it never comes to this, naturally.)

-- Elaine Seavey (Gods1sheep@aol.com), October 18, 1999

Answers

In a self defense video I saw, they fired a 9mm and a .45 at a cinder block. Two shots each in the same spot. Both cratered the block ont he first shot, penetrated the first side of the block on the second shot, but neither went through the block.

Since 00 is around 9mm in size, I would expect the same thing, at a distance. Close up, it would be like using a massive bullet, so who knows if it would go through the block or not. Actually, come to think of it, and range in an apartment is probably too close with 00. :)

I would guess that any rifle caliber bullet would go through those walls at that range.

-- James Collins (jacollins@thegrid.net), October 18, 1999.


One shot gun slug that WILL penetrate cinder block is the BRI sabot discarding slug. It is a .50 caliber slug encased in a plastic sabot (.75 caliber) It has penetrated cinder block in tests of the ammunition.

Keep your...

-- eyes_open (best@wishes.not), October 18, 1999.


The normally recommended "indoors" loads, #'s 4,5 or 6 shot would have a very hard time penetrating sheetrock on both sides of a wall. But larger shot #'s 00, 0, 1 and 2 will certainly penetrate through two layers of sheetrock spaced 4 to 6 inches apart. Whether they will penetrate and come out with enough velocity to do bodily harm will depend on the distance the gun is fired from a wall.

But in your case I would tend to think that after first penetrating sheetrock and any insulation, the pellets would certainly be stopped by the concrete block. In fact it's been my experience that even 9MM rounds are slowed to non-dangerous velocity by two layers of sheetrock.

My brother in-law demonstrated by accidently firing his service gun one night. He was starting to clean it after dropping the mag but didn't cycle the slide.

The round was a +P jacketed hollow point police load. The round went through the two layers 6 inch-spaced of sheetrock and a mirror, then bounced twice on the carpet in the adjoining room. We found the round and it wasn't deformed at all by its impacts.

Keep in mind that 9MM rounds are traveling probably twice as fast as any shotgun pellet and have probably twice the penetration capability of the largest shotshell pellet. Just stick to the smaller shot loads and you should have no problems should the worst occur and you have to use your shotgun.

WW

-- Wildweasel (vtmldm@epix.net), October 18, 1999.


Hi Elaine, If #4, #5, or #6 shot will not penetrate sheet rock, how is it going to penetrate a leather jacket, sweatshirt, shirt, and tee shirt ? This shot is made for small game animals and is NOT suitable for self defense. If you can get a copy of Wilderness Home magazine, Massad Ayob, a very well known self defense writer with many years of law enforcement and self defense training wrote an article on this very topic...Aug/Sept issue. Use #4 buckshot which is about the same diameter as a .22 cal bullit, with about 40 pellets per shot, for indoor self defense. This will give you plenty of knock down power and will not penetrate the cinder block unless you stand a foot away and blast a hole straight into it. Make sure the shot is lead, as lead will deform immediately upon contact with a wall or cinder block. This will cause it to loose its energy very quickly and it will therefore be less likely to richochet back towards the shooter. It is very important to practise. One can miss with a shotgun and one must practise to make sure that you can hit a man size target at any reasonable indoor range. These things make a very big bang and the recoil can be very uncomfortable. If you are not prepared or have not practised, you may not get a second shot should you miss the first. Also, study the safety rules....always keep a gun pointed in a safe direction, keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot....etc.....dang, you know that it is just too bad that there is no longer an organized group of folks who could mentor you through the early stages. Try to look for someone you trust, and who has several years of shooting experience to help you with this. It is a lot easier to get started with help from someone. My bet is that if you have a skeet or trap or other shooting club nearby, that they would be very glad to help you and provide a place to shoot. God Bless and Best Regards, Ken

-- Ken G. (eia_indy@iquest.net), October 19, 1999.

Here is a very good website with a lot of information on weapons and strategies... These guys and gals are the experts...

http://www.recguns.com/topOutline.html

I hope it helps...

snoozin'...

The Dog

-- Dog (Desert Dog@-sand.com), October 19, 1999.



You all are so great in helping others...thank you so much for the good advice. Gosh, this is one fine group of human beings.

-- Elaine Seavey (Gods1sheep@aol.com), October 19, 1999.

9mm not doing damage after 2 sheets of drywall???? What are they shooting them with, compressed air? Maybe a sub-sonic round for a silenced/supressed weapon? A 9mm round, (115gr, Jacketed Hollow Point with .49 grains of Bullseye powder) will pass through 2 layers of drywall 4 inches apart, then 1 1/2 inches of compressed hardboard with a masonite covering layer and still kill a groundhog (straight through) at 75 yards. Still haven't found the slug. I've seen it done, and I'm still impressed and that's how most are loaded. .49 grains of powder is just about max load, but not far above what a normal store load is. Just be careful about where you point that thing. If you want something that's not going to go through the walls and are concerned about who's on the other side, I'd consider the Glasser Safety Slug in the 9mm. Just about disintegrates when it hits anything, reducing the chance for ricochette's and collateral damage. Remember, if you're aiming at something, what's behind it isn't normally what you're worrying about. Now, the groundhog on the other hand....... Regardless of what you shoot, or where you shoot... if it's for protection, make the first shot count. Your first shot may be all you get.

-- James L. Miller Jr. (millerj@hqs1110th-emh.detrick.army.mil), October 19, 1999.

Wait, wait, wait.

I see what is happening here.

Ok. Here's a simple rule of thumb. If it will stop an attacker, it will go through sheet rock. Alot.

The reason a shotgun is recommended for "safe" home defence is because a load of shot has quite a bit of stopping power up close while the grouping is still small, but spreads out and therefore dissapates it's energy over a much wider area of the sheet rock.

Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to figure out what size pellet will stop the most determined attacker while in a clump with it's fellow spheres, but will balk at penetrating one or two layers of sheet rock on it's own. That .22 size pellet that plays a staring role in #4 buck might just be a tad too much to be stopped by sheet rock. But sheet rock is cheap, so go to Loews (or whatever) and buy some, then shoot at it at 25 feet. See what happens.

You want to go through the expense and effort of doing this because you ARE RESPONSIBLE for your bullets and where they land.

And you can also really help yourself by purchasing Masaad Ayoob's "In the gravest extreme". He discusses the issues quite intellegently.

Disclaimer: I am not Masaad Ayoob, do not know as much as he, nor do I have as funny a name. (Just buy his book!)

God bless and keep your...

-- eyes_open (best@wishes.not), October 19, 1999.


I have also read Ayoob's book and think highly of it. An example of the useful information in it:

1) A .38 Special pistol round hitting the torso has a 50% chance of inflicting a "knock-down".

2) A .45 caliber pistol round hitting the torso has an 80% chance of inflicting a "knockdown".

3) A .357 magnum pistol round impact is similiar in effect to a .38 UNLESS it strikes a major bone, in which case it transmits the full effect of its energy to the target.

4) Small rounds (.22, .25) actually have a greater chance to kill than the larger rounds if fired until knockdown is achieved; this is due to less knockdown chance, and to later mortality. Their chance of KD is in the 18-22% range (if I remember correctly).

His book is a great primer for many of the issues GIs looking into the firearms subject are confronting.

my site: www.y2ksafeminnesota.com (has a small firearms vs. Y2K summary for the interested)

-- MinnesotaSmith (y2ksafeminnesota@hotmail.com), October 19, 1999.


Hell, my old PMI Trracer pump paintball gun will put a .68 cal paintball through a piece of half-inch sheetrock at ten yards, and it's a PAINTBALL GUN! CO2 powered and that's it; essentially a bag BB gun designed for nonlethally tagging people at range.

Sheetrock penetration is NOT, I repeat, NOT, a reliable indicator of penetrating power. How deeply it'll go into a block of clay is a bit more accurate.

OddOne, who is contemplating ordering a nice Barrett M82A1 .50 cal sniper rifle to target shoot with...

-- OddOne (mocklamer_1999@yahoo.com), October 25, 1999.



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