Help requested in purchasing a shotgun. My daughter and I are moving to the country the first of next month. We would like any info on the purchase of a shotgun. Our prep budget is minimal. Do we buy used? Where do we buy? From a gun dealer? What brand is good for min. cost? How much ammo? Any help would be appreciated. I am a good shot with a 22 rifle, but in the dark a target is hard to hit so the shotgun sounds like the best deal. I pray to the "force", "universal mind", supreme being, whoever is in charge, that I never have to hurt or kill, but survival seems important to me for self and loved ones, including pets. Thanks

-- D.J. Phillips (gardengal@land.com), October 17, 1999

Answers

Yes, I'm thinking of buying a gun too. Never used one. Know there are many threads and chats about this. Anybody have links?

-- shy girl (ready@pull.trigger), October 17, 1999.

First, you must have an FOID (firearms owner ID), then Walmart has a Mosseberg 500 12 gauge shot gun (8 shot) for $195. Good gun. Good buy. Process from start to take-home could be 4-5 weeks. Do it Now! Then get some practice from someone who knows what they are doing. You will also need a case, shells, cleaning equipment, all at Walmart and inexpensive. Do it now!

-- N.B. (newbuyer@Walmart.gun), October 17, 1999.

You also may wish to direct such questions to the rec.guns newsgroup. These people are patient and have a LOT of knowledge. They'll be glad to answer any and all questions you have, and their answers are excellent.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), October 17, 1999.

NB-

How do you know where she lives? I'm in CA, and we don't need a FOID, and there is a 10 day waiting period for shotguns.

DJ-

NB is right, the mossberg is a good defense gun because it holds a lot of ammo, and is short, so you can handle it easier in confined spaces like your house. The forst thing you should do is go to a gun shop and learn what the laws are, as well as seeing what's available. Since you're in the country you may want to get a shotgun with interchangeable barrels (longer ones for hunting) as this may come in handy if the worst rolls around. Good luck

-- cavscout (hunkered@my.bunker), October 17, 1999.

The best shot gun for the money would be a Mossberg 500 a Remington 870 Used.This should be around $200.Also you will need to go to your locale gun show find them or look in your locale paper.What you DO NOT!!! want to do is buy one from a locale dealer.Because then you will have to go throught the federal check systyem that will create a tracable record when it comes time to turn all weapons in.Ammo?about 50-100 rounds of double 00 buck is what i would recemmend.Then go out and practice,practice,pratice.You may also want to have a flash light put on your gun.Its better to see first and then shot then the other way around.Good luck.

-- defence (defence@shotgun.com), October 17, 1999.

N.B., FOID???

What planet do you live on???Which part of the country requires a FOID?

Not here in Arizona!

-- K. Stevens (kstevens@ It's ALL going away in January.com), October 17, 1999.

K-Mart, Wal*Mart and big-name sporting goods stores for buying new. Generally between $200 and $300, closer to $200 in the pre-deer hunting season sales. Local gun dealers usually have used guns available along with new. Look in the local papers and "Penny Savers" want-ad flyers for used. I've seen good deals as low as $125 locally. Pawn shops are another possible source, but you've got to know what you're looking for.

Look for a Mossberg pump action "deer gun" with a twenty-inch, smooth- bore barrel. Be certain to get barrel that will handle slugs, Some Mossberg "bird gun" barrels expressly state "Not For Use With Slugs". If you can find one, a gun that uses replaceable chokes is preferred. Then buy a turkey choke and a rifled, sabot round choke.

The turkey choke works best for #4 shot loads and the rifled choke lets you use sabot rounds for long-range shooting. You might need to hunt game for meat, so don't lock yourself out of that capability by getting a gun that won't handle slugs or sabots.

If you are medium-build or larger look for a "regular" twelve-gauge. If you're below medium build consider a twenty gauge or a youth-model twelve gauge to better fit your arm length.

As far as ammunition, stay away from Magnum and Super Magnum loads. There's no need to physically punish yourself when you shoot your gun. You'll want 2 3/4-inch,#4 shot loads as your primary round. It will be most effective out to about thirty yards. Personally, I keep about 250 rounds per shotgun, but I would consider 100 rounds the bare minimum to have on hand at year's end.

For longer ranges, get slugs if your gun doesn't have the replaceable choke. Slugs are good out to over 50 yards with high accuracy for hunting and will still do well in a combat situation at maybe 100 yards. Just aim high to make up for drop at longer ranges.

If you do get the intechangeable choke, don't bother with slugs and buy sabot rounds and the rifled choke instead. Sabots hold good groups out to 100 yards for hunting, as the average. With a scoped twelve gauge I can keep good groups out to 125 yards. With open sights 75-100 yards is a good rule of thumb for accurate shooting and probably 150 yards for combat shooting. A stock of 25 rounds is a good start for sabots. Slugs are much less expensive and a good number to have on-hand would be 50 or more.

One thing not to overlook is practice. Learn how to handle you gun safely and then go set up some targets and learn how to use it. Then practice as much as you can afford. You'll need to go through at least 100 rounds between now and Y-Day to become proficient and comfortable with a shotgun if you've never used one.

Hope this helps. Good luck, and may you never have to use your shotgun in anger.

WW

-- Wildweasel (vtmldm@epix.net), October 17, 1999.

Remington makes a Home Defense model for about $260. It has an 18" barrel. The Big 5 sporting goods chain sells Remington 870 Express 12 gauge shotguns for $239 with a 28" vent rib bbl. Nothing fancy, but most definitely credible. I would take the synthetic stock if you have a choice. I have a weak left hand so I prefer a Rem. 11-87 semi-auto (about double the price). If your daughter is going to use it, a 20 gauge pump might be more suitable, depending on her stature. But buy 12 or 20 gauge ONLY. Ammunition for shotguns is a question since the goody two shoes made everybody give up lead pellets. I believe I would choose steel pellets in a no. 4 or 6 shot with a few boxes of no. 4 buckshot (lead if possible) and a couple boxes of slugs. Think about a sling. You might check and see if there any New England Firearms single shot shotguns. These are simple and reliable. See if there is a gunshow in your area (while they last). If there is, you should attend one, if for no other reason than to ask questions. If you see a shotgun for sale at one, and you should happen to casually enquire as to the price, you might be pleasantly surprised at the response. Of course, I'm not actually advocating that you buy guns from a private party at such an event. Oh, no. No way! Perish the thought! And I'll vehemently deny I ever even brought up the subject. The very idea of two law-abiding citizens engaging in lawful commerce in front of God and Everybody is really just too much for my liberal sensibilities. (let the reader understand). I collect stamps, see? Or was it ceramic frogs? I forget. :)

-- chairborne commando (what-me-worry@armageddon.com), October 17, 1999.

Since we have instant background checks, the whole thing from walking into Wal_ Mart to walking out with the Shotgun is 30 minutes.

Here in Arizona "It is the Public Policy of this State to encourage the open and notorious wearing of firearms as a deterrent to crime." Of course, for the non open and non notorious, Concealed Carry Permits are freely available.

-- K. Stevens (kstevens@ It's ALL going away in January.com), October 17, 1999.

If I get a gun at a gunshow, can I still go sign up and practice at a range without "papers?"

-- shy girl (ready@pull.trigger), October 17, 1999.

1 in 10 households are suffering hunger. In some areas of America it is 1 in 7. Are they surrounding you now? Are they climbing in through your windows to steal your bag of rice?

I think I like the Y2K'ers with the rose colored glasses who want to feed all their 100 neighbors, and take in strange couples, more than others.

-- Paula (chowbabe@pacbell.net), October 17, 1999.

Shygirl, With a shotgun you have the advantage that a practice range doesn't have to be a very elaborate or formal facility. If you have access to an open pasture and can get hold of a large cardboard box (washer or dryer cartons), you've got a shotgun practice range. If you know someone who lives in the country you can save yourself range fees and being noticed as someone going to the target ranges.

Paula, I consider that most people who will come by our house after Y2K will not be any sort of threat. But while we are making special preparations to be able to help those who will come by in need of help, we realize that special preparations are also needed for those who will be a threat when they are at our door.

WW

-- Wildweasel (vtmldm@epix.net), October 17, 1999.

K. Stevens,

What planet do you live on???Which part of the country requires a FOID?

He might live in NJ. You need an FID (Firearms ID Card) to purchase *ANY* firearm as well as for the purchase of handgun ammo. You also need a PPP (Pistol Purchase Permit) for each and every handgun you want to buy. For *each* PPP you need to be fingerprinted at the local police station, wait 30 days for the FBI background check (in reality it's more like 90), then you get the PPP from the chief. The PPP is good for 90 days and you can get it extended another 90 if you ask real nice. Oh, and all this on top of the normal NIC check at the sales counter. Yeah, we need MORE gun laws here. NOT!

-TECH32-

-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), October 17, 1999.

Thank you, Wildweasel. If I take a new shotgun sans "papers" out to a national forest to practice on a camping trip, will I be breaking any laws? Do I need permits to practice target shooting? TIA

-- shy girl (ready@pull.trigger), October 17, 1999.

shy girl,

Nobody carries "papers" regarding a specific gun. Some states require a firearms ID card which identifies you as someone who is allowed to have a gun. If your state doesn't there's no problem. If your state does require such an ID its posible the range may want to see it when you sign up. If they do, and you don't have the ID, find a friend who does and go to the range with him, they may let you shoot "his" gun.

Just be sure to carry the gun openly (in a case is ok but not concealed in your pocket or hidden holster) and you won't need a concealed carry permit.

-- biker (y2kbiker@hotmail.com), October 17, 1999.

shy girl: Do you like to mudwrestle?

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), October 17, 1999.

No. I don't like guns either. But I'm scared. If a burglar comes in to steal my preps, I may survive, maybe even without getting raped. But then I'll starve. I want to hold on to my stuff and be safe.

-- shy girl (ready@pull.trigger), October 17, 1999.

A little while back some one here mentioned a great place for accessories for the Moseburg 500, such as hand grips for front and rear. Im also looking for attachment methods for a mini flash light. any suggestions greatly appreciated...---...

-- Les (yoyo@tolate.com), October 17, 1999.

Paula, your " 1 in 10 hungry in US statistic is BULLSH*T. The biggest problem the poor have in this country when it comes to nutrition is obesity. But when and if the mommy state takes a dive then they will be hungry, and not in any mood to respect your rights.

-- kozak (kozak@formerusaf.guv), October 17, 1999.

FYI-

the FOID (Firearm Owners I.D.) card is necessary in Illinois to purchase a gun or ammo from a dealer. (you might not need it to purchase ammo, but if you are in a large city or suburb, they tend to be rather strict, the indoor range I go to will not let me bring anyone else with unless they ALSO have a FOID card....grrrrrr)

-- plonk! (realaddress@hotmail.com), October 17, 1999.

#4buckshot rules,one 3" magnum round nails the bad guy with 41 .24 calibre lead balls.That's the end of that!

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), October 17, 1999.

Buy a Mossberg. You can get a model 500 for around $200 and it will kick ass for you. I bought a 590, which is the same model used by police and military. I'ts basically the same as a 500 except that it holds 8 +1 shells (2 3/4 inch), and it is supposed to me a more hardy gun for long term- extensive use. The 590 will run you abou2 $350.

If you are looking to spend less money, and get a kick ass gun....just get the 500. You cant go wrong there. There are tons of accessories for them too.

I turned my Mossberg 590 into a "tactical shotgun" buy purchasing accessories from http://www.gunaccessories.com

Im stocking a shite load of 4 buck, 00 buck, and slugs. Each has its own purpose.

-- Cory Hill (coryh@strategic-services.net), October 17, 1999.

Also, I live in Nevada, and I was able to buy my gun and take it home the same hour. They did a background check on the phone. Just call a gun store in your state and find out what the law is there.

ALSO:

For ANYONE buying guns for the first time due to Y2K:

1. Find out what the laws are in your state for using deadly force. For example here in Nevada, an intruder has to have a deadly weapon, and show intent to kill me or someone else before I may fire. I cannot chase him down and shoot him either. The concealed carry manual for Nevada also suggests that you let the criminal LEAVE IN PEACE if possible. That is entirely up to you and your philosophy on such things.

2. Join a gun club or range and fire your gun as much as you can so you wont be scared of it if you have to pull it out.

3. I suggest keeping some pepper spray in the house for the wife in case she will never fire a gun (like my wife) or as simply a backup for things that might not require the gun to be pulled.

There are many things to consider..ESPECIALLY safety related. If you buy a Mossberg, it should come with a cable lock. If you didnt get one...BUY ONE! For pistols and such, purchase a trigger lock.

There are a lot of things to think about when buying a gun. I suggest doing some reading and taking a gun safety course if possible.

Im no expert, but I just wanted to get you thinking since you are trying to buy a gun for the first time. PLEASE...if anyone else has any important thoughts to add....DO IT NOW!!

-- Cory Hill (coryh@strategic-services.net), October 17, 1999.

WW, I think one could experience trouble if one is not discreet, which includes attempting to be an unofficial "relief center," and also depending on the severity and combination of failures. It may be unwise to help anyone outside of donating some items or food to an official relief center.

One thing that I've never forgotten is the Senate Committee's comment that we already know how people will and will not behave, because Americans are not a unique breed of people and the globe offers many windows to demonstrate what their behavior will be. I know Indonesia was especially glanced at as a window to American behavior which is indicative of ferocious rioting.

People are talking about the present crises in Hawaii on this forum, and no one seems to be mentioning incidents in which Hawaiians shattered through their livingroom window in a desperate search for toilet paper. There is a mention, an eye witness account, of civil unrest and a store tossing boxes of t.p. to the crowds in the parking lot.

In Florida there is the account of a National Guard armory being looted.

MacArthur freaked out over a huge and mushrooming Hooverville of hungry vets forming in the capitol and had them cleared out.

My own conclusion is that discretion is the key to survival. If it comes down to mayhem on prepared households I don't think ones rifle will save oneself. As one naysayer in mocking had pointed out they too have rifles.

-- Paula (chowbabe@pacbell.net), October 17, 1999.

Paula is correct. Discretion. Low-profile. If purchased for personal defense, they're there to use because you HAVE to for one reason or the other, not because you fancy the idea of being an apocalyptic John Wayne.

So far as the Mossberg 500 goes, keep in mind that it's a 12-gauge, and as such will have quite a bit of kick to it -- especially if you have the model with the pistol grip (which I do). I believe either Remington or Winchester makes a #2 shot "personal defense" load that lessens the recoil a little. Although I personally prefer #00 buckshot, #2 will make an impression on someone if need be.

Either way, I can leave you with what was taught me by my mother's then-boyfriend (a south Florida policeman) several years ago:

(1) Don't aim at anyone unless you're prepared to pull the trigger; (2) Don't pull the trigger unless you intend to kill (because if it comes to that -- God forbid -- odds are there won't be a Second Prize for just making noise).

-- I'm Here, I'm There (I'm Everywhere@so.beware), October 17, 1999.

I don't anticipate discretion being easy. I'm finding it to be no different than having prepared for shortages and outages in that one forgets or doesn't realize points.

Another Y2K'er had reminded me the other day as a smoker I will have to be especially wary of opening my windows because it can be easily detected thus giving me away. People who are starving to death in a "famine" aren't sitting about enjoying a cigarette.

The same had also mentioned one will have to hide ones trash and not outside anywhere. I have two sheds I can utilize for that if I must.

The same person also mentioned that if one breaks down and becomes weak knee'd to a person at the door, to be sure what is given appears to have been scrounged out from the back of a cupboard. No canned goods, no "case" of anything, and no boxed items and it must be in a tiny amount such as two Top Ramens not a bag of Top Ramens.

I had been in a rut noting just the obvious that one ought not to use a campstove bodly as it requires a window being opened.

-- Paula (chowbabe@pacbell.net), October 17, 1999.

Shy Girl, call your local Game and Fish office and go over your shooting intentions with 'em about practicing in the Nat'l Forest. It's probably OK but if it is hunting season, they'll think up something to cite you for.

You other folks who want to tape a flashlight on your shotgun, that's about as smart as the idiots who move to the country and immediatly install street lights in their ludicrous belief that it will deter thieves. If I was a bad guy outside your door, I'd wait till the flashlight came up and swung toward me and you would get a 65 grain pill right between the eyes. Think this stuff through, folks.

-- Roger (pecosrog@earthlink.net), October 17, 1999.

Buy a used shotgun from a private owner. Unless they are physically damaged, very little can go wrong with them. Depending on your state, you may be able to buy one without an FOID card. No sense leaving a paper trail if not necessary. Once you do get one, go to several different outlets to get your shells.

-- Disgusted (sodom@gommorah.net), October 17, 1999.

Don't forget to buy some type of hearing protection. A $10. pair of headphone type hearing protection will save you from short and long term hearing loss. Depending on your size and weight, you may want to consider a 20 gauge shotgun. Less kick, easier to handle and just about the same results at close range. Mossberg makes a 20 gauge version of the 500. Practice, practice, practice. I am outfitting my shotgun with super bright flashlight with a quick pressure on/off switch mounted on the foregrip. I know the light may be an easy target, but I can shoot and move, plus I will see what I am shooting at in the dark.

-- Bill (y2khippo@yahoo.com), October 17, 1999.

D.J.

Along with buying a shotgun make sure you join the NRA. We are close to loosing our second amendment rights to own guns here in the USA. It's happening in Britian, Canada, and Australia. We are next if gun owners don't start becomming active in fighting the gun control/ban crowd.

-- Trick James (trickjames@hotmail.com), October 17, 1999.

Hey Cory or anyone who knows - how come you said your Mossberg is an 8 shot and I the one I was just looking at was a 6 shot. Did they cut back for the newer models? Well, I guess if I wasted 6 dudes in a row that would hopefully be enough to scare the rest off long enough to reload. Just curious. Kmart has a Maverick that looks about the same as the Mossberg, ever seen this?

-- @ (@@@.@), October 17, 1999.

The number of rounds the thing holds sometimes depends on the barrel length, the longer it is then the longer the shell tube is. Also depends somewhat on if you are using 3" mag or regular 2 3/4" shells.

Some of these guys are killin me with all that regulation!! A waiting period for a shotgun?? You gotta be kiddin' me!!

You can be in and out of a gunshop here in no time at all with any rifle or shotgun. Ya fill out one paper and show yer drivers license. In fact, I expected to have to wait a few days for a handgun I bought the other day, and was plesantly surprised to see the insta-check system is up and operational.

Well, anyway, back to the original questions...D.J., Mossburg shotguns are very good quality and cheaper than the big boys. The Model 500 is used by lots of law enforcement tactical teams and the military. It's a very good one, but they do have even cheaper models. Last year I got a model 88 at K-mart for $159.00 but I suspect they have probably gone up some since then. As to the ammo, I would alternate 00 buckshot and slugs. How much? Whatever you can afford. It ain't gunna get any cheaper! If you don't know much about guns, buy yours from a local gunshop...they are much more knowledgeable and willing to answer your questions and help you out than some punk behind the counter at K-Mart. If you already know enough about 'em, then go for the price.

-- Don Wegner (donfmwyo@earthlink.net), October 18, 1999.

Hey, is hunting season all most over or just starting? You guys/gals are starting to scare me a bit. Gimme shelter!

-- Michael (mikeymac@uswest.net), October 18, 1999.

Thanks Don, yeah that was the Maverick I saw at Kmart, a model 88, and you're right it has gone up, now $179.

Michael,

Up here in the great Northwest bow hunting season started oh, about 2 months ago, and gun hunting just started I think just a couple of weeks ago. Hopefully I won't have to waste any humanoids, but if things get bad I'll definitely be bringing home some game.

-- @ (@@@.@), October 18, 1999.

Cory Hill:

If the wolf is at the door and you have your Hillary Clinton-autographed-politically-correct trigger locks on your guns, you will be toast. Far better to keep the loaded weapon in a secure box/cabinet/safe, which only you/other authorized person can QUICKLY access.

In this situation you need

Godspeed,

-- Pinkrock (aphotonboy@aol.com), October 18, 1999.

excuse me mister criminal while I get this^&%#$^&^%! gun lock off my glock!!

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), October 18, 1999.

Does a shotgun have to be in a case if it is in your own house? Can it be leaning in the bedroom corner ready to use? The kids have grown and have their own families out of state.

-- maybe getting one too (run@gun.store), October 18, 1999.

Paula, I am not wishing to be argumentative or start a controversy here with you, but I am confused by you no end. In your first posted reply to this legitimate question, you seem to look down upon those who would be cautious enough to sense that they might need self defense weapons in the event of trouble at the rollover.

Then you follow up with TWO posts in which you state clearly the arguments for having methods of self defense, and exercising great caution. Why do you do that?

-- Elaine Seavey (Gods1sheep@aol.com), October 18, 1999.

that Paula chowbabe has been weird from the first post, a strange trollish chick (?) who posts at odds of freedom, unscrutable motives

-- not even a 10-foot pole (touch@this.one), October 18, 1999.

According to that chick on another post she was abused when young and has turned into a "militant lesbian", whatever that is, but it don't sound good. So, I'd be careful what you say or she may hunt you down and cut your balls off.

-- @ (@@@.@), October 18, 1999.

@

The Mossburg 500 has a 5 round tube mag. The 590 has an eigth round mag and is built to mil spec. The Maverick line is the low cost line. Not bad, but for instance the Maverick has only one pump rail. A little less dependable.

Hope that helps.

Keep your...

-- eyes_open (best@wishes.not), October 18, 1999.

Thanks eyes,

Yes, that does help out. I'm sure the 590 costs more, but I may consider it instead of the 500 if it isn't a lot more. Thanx.

-- @ (@@@.@), October 18, 1999.

I'm hoping someone can help me out with some insight...

I recently checked out the "Defender", a Winchester I think. I saw it on sale for about $239 with an 18" barrel and 8 shot tube. Seemed very good quality for the price. Also, a Mossberg combo which comes with both a 28" and an 18 1/2" barrels for $199.00.

I've seen a Brolin Arms 5 shot 12 gage with 18 inch barrel for $139.00 and was wondering if it's possible to put an extension tube on it so it will take 7 rounds. Is it also possible to put an extension on a Maverick? I saw the Maverick on sale at K-Mart for $179 as well but it had the 28 1/2" barrel.

Also, checked out my local pawn shop where there was a Mossberg 500 in very good condition for $149.00. Is that a decent value?

Any insight would be very appreciated.

Thanks,

Mike

==============================================================

-- Michael Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), October 19, 1999.

I just bought a 20 gauge Mossberg pump for $199 with tax. the process was simple- in my state- the phone check took about 5 minutes.

I think this will be a good all-purpose gun- and a 12 gague is too much for me- I have a small frame. I do wish it were easier to find one built for lefties though- a pain to have the shells discharging across my face....oh well.

Paula- a gun is a tool. With many uses. I will use mine as I need to. And I will protect my family as I need to. Period.

-- farmer (hillsidefarm@drbs.com), October 19, 1999.

I want to buy a gun in such a way as to be untraceable. When they come rounding up I don't want them to get mine. Under martial law anything goes.

-- lance (lance1@freem.net), October 19, 1999.

hey lance. this may sound bad to some but having an "untraceable" weapon isn't going the legal way anyway. you can buy it through a regular dealer and then report a break-in and say it was stolen or you can find a place in your house like the attic in the insulation or within a wall and hide it. One trick would be to make a false wall behind a cabinet where you can keep it. then if the law comes looking for your gun you can say that you were robbed and the badguys took it from you. act mad and say stuff like where the hell were you guys before!!! I been thinking about this to

-- jb (lurking@my.house), October 19, 1999.

In one post by Wild Weasel he mentions different "chokes" and replaceable chokes and then a comment about certain types of ammo being used with/without certain types of chokes.

Could Wild Weasel or anyone else further explain this?

-- newbie to guns (newbie@guns.com), October 19, 1999.

Chokes are these little 'tubes' that, on some weapons, screw into the end of the barrel to control the shot pattern. the three most common are modified, improved and improved cylider. Modified provides the 'tightest pattern' of shot at a greater distance, while the improved cylider has the traditional 'scatter pattern' Hope this helps define things for you...

-- Billy Boy (Rakkasan@Yahoo.com), October 19, 1999.

"Metal and Wood"

Source: The Firing Line
Author: Dennis Bateman

It is a rare person who does not attach some sort of value or emotion to some physical object or to an event. A home becomes more than a building. A statue of the Virgin Mary, a crucifix, a flag or a song, or even a photograph can stir emotions greater than the value of the material item.

I have a piece of paper showing I served in the military until I was discharged honorably. But, oh, the memories that piece of paper conjures up. The friends, the fun times. The bad times. The times when we were bound closer to strangers than to our own families and, in frightening chaos, our lives hung by a thread.

Many of our friends died far from home. Ask us about the feeling of "American soil" upon returning to the land we loved. Ask those returning soldiers about America.

Remember the old, faintly humorous band of American Legionnaires, wearing out-dated military uniforms straining at the buttons. But, God how proudly they marched. Grinning, waving to friends and families, and always, always "The Flag!" Ask them if the flag is mere cloth, I dare you.

See the elderly lady sitting in a lawn chair watching the fourth of July parade. Three flags carefully folded some forty years ago into triangles now rest in her lap - one for each lost son. Ask her if those flags are mere cloth, I dare you.

Look at the old man quietly crying, leaning against the Iwo Jiima Memorial at Arlington Cemetery. As he turns to you, smiles with some embarrassment, and says in a choked whisper, "I was there." Ask him, "Is it just metal and clay?" Ask him. I dare you.

The Wall. My God, the Wall. See the young man lightly tracing the name of his father there inscribed. Ask him if its just rock. Ask him. I dare you.

My guns? They're of little real value compared to my family and my home. They are toys, or tools, or both. But what those guns represent to me is greater than all of us, greater than myself, my family, indeed greater than our entire generation. What could be of such value?

The freedom of man to live within civil, self-imposed limitations rather than under restrictions placed upon him by a ruler or a ruling class.

Imagine the daring, the bravery of a few men to declare they intended to create a new country, independent of the burden of their established Rulers!

Those men we call our forefathers were brilliant men. They could have maneuvered themselves into positions of influence within the structure of the times, but they did not. They struggled to free themselves from tyranny. They wrote the Declaration of Independence. And they backed up their words and ideals with metal and wood.

They knew the dangers of such dreams and actions. They knew it was a frightening and dangerous venture into the unknown when they dared reach beyond their grasp for a vision - for an ideal. But they dared to dedicate themselves to achieve Liberty and Freedom for their children, and their children's children, through the generations.

Imagine the dreams and yearnings of centuries finally being reduced to the written word. The Rights of "We the People!" instead of the "Powers of the Monarchy."

Our forefathers dared to create a new government - a new form of government. And they knew that any organization has, as its first and foremost goal, its continued existence. Second only to that it strives to increase its power. It plots, it devises, it maneuvers to achieve control over its environment - over its subjects.

Our Forefathers decided to make America different from any country, anywhere, at any time in the entire history of the entire world. This country, this new nation of immigrants, would be based upon the concept that people could rule themselves better than any single person or small group of persons could rule them.

Other countries have had outstanding documents with guarantees for its citizens - but the citizens have become enslaved. How, these great men pondered, can we ensure this new government will remain subject to the will of the People?

They wanted limits upon this new government. Therefore, our forefathers wrote limitations into the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. And one of those Rights was that metal and wood, as the final power of the people, would secure this country for the future generations.

Metal and wood were the means by which we won our freedom.

Metal and wood were the means by which we kept our freedom.

Metal and wood may be the means by which we regain our freedom.

Metal and wood are the final power of the people. Take away the metal and wood and the people become powerless - they can only beg, they supplicate for favors.

We are unique in our ability to rule ourselves but we are letting it slip away. Today we compromise. We try to appease man's insatiable appetite for power by throwing him bits of our freedoms. But the insatiable appetite for power can not be appeased. The freedoms we feed him only make us weaker and him stronger. We must conquer him and again ensure the "Blessings of Liberty" won for us by our forefathers.

We must be ready to use metal and wood again, for if we are ready, truly ready, we may be able to conquer the monster with words - for in its heart it is a coward. But if we continue to feed the monster our freedoms, we will become too weak to win, to weak even to fight, and we will become a conquered people. We will have sold ourselves and our future generations into servitude.

If words fail us, we will use metal and wood, we will regain what we have lost, we will achieve what we seek, we will guarantee the America of our forefathers for the future generations.

So you see, our guns are more than metal and wood. They are our heritage of freedom. They are the universally understood symbol that the government, no matter how big and strong it may be, answers to us! They are the tools we will use to prevent tyranny in the land of our forefathers and our children. So, ask me what my guns mean to me. Ask my children what our guns mean to them. Ask us. I dare you.

-- oo (oo@oo.oo), October 23, 1999.

Moving essay. Good points.

-- reconsidering (the@gun.thing), October 23, 1999.