SPEAKING OF THREADS, this particular thread from the Apocalypse keeps on getting in my eyes lately. Anyone see a thematic resonsance between Reveleation 18, on the Fall of Babylon -- "that Great City" -- in A SINGLE HOUR, and the increasing gravity of think-tank and agency publications over the last few weeks, addressing potential threats of Y2K breakdowns in "financial services sectors" i.e. the "Service of Mammon" Sector? I'm thinking in particualr of International Monitoring's Analysis of Herstatt Risk, and the links that Gary North put up today ... well, the Doomer Picture overall, with supporting text and documentation. The picture of Revelation 18 is of a total destrction of Babylon -- that Great City -- in such a fashion that the kings and princes and merchants of the earth -- the wholel earth, that is -- are left standing about weeping over her. Take a looksee:

Rev 18:9

The Kings of the earth, who committed fornication and were anton with her, shall weep and beat their breats over her, when they look at the smoke of her conflagration. Standing at a considerable distance because dreading her torture, they shall exclaim, "Woe, woe, forthe great city [INTERNATIONAL BANKING AND COMMERCE -- Ed.]; for her JUDGMENT IS COME IN A SINGLE HOUR." And the earth's merchants will weep and mourn over her, becuase no one will any longer buy their cargo, their cago of gold, silver, precious stones, perals, fine linen ... etc.

It goes on at some length. But the refrain of destruction "IN A SINGLE HOUR" appearS three or four more times. To wit:

Rev 18:15

The Merchants of thes products, who grew rich from her trade, will stand a long way off in terror of her torture, weeping and mourning, and exclaim, "Woe, woe, for the great city that was dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet and gilded with gold and precious stones and pearls, for IN A SINGLE HOUR ALL THIS WEALTH HAS BEEN LAID WASTE.

Rev 18:18 -- Ahhh. And this obvious reference to the GPS Rollover:

Every pilot, too, and all who sail the seas, mariners and all who work the sea for their living, stood at a distance and creid out as they looked at the smoke of her conflagration, "What city was as great as this?" They threw dust on their heads and shouted as they wept and mourned, "Woe, woe, woe for the great city where all who had ships at sea [OIL TANKER LOSES RUDDER CONTROL OFF COAST OF WASHINGTON STATE .... film at 11:00] grew wealthy from her great wealth. FOR IN A SINGLE HOUR SHE HAS BEEN LAID WASTE.

And finally ....

Rev 18: 23-24: FOR YOUR MERCHANTS WERE THE EARTH'S PROMINENT MEN; BY YOUR MAGIC CHARMS ALL NATIONS WERE LED ASTRAY. [I.e.: the deriviatives market] In her, too, was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.

Well, that's one mighty big metaphorical CITY. Sounds like a city that has urban growth boundaries around the world.

-- Roch Steinbach (rochsteinbach@excite.com), October 14, 1999

Answers

four roger that, Roch!

-- Jay Urban (jurban@berenyi.com), October 14, 1999.

Certainly the principle of the destruction of our current system can be extrapolated from Revelation 18, and I have no doubt our destruction is imminent, which is why I say Get Your House In Order.

However, the passage in Revelation 18 more accurately describes what will happen to the "Beast", the Great Whore and False Prophet that arise from our ashes and makes the merchants of the world WEALTHY

There are 2 distinctions of wrath found in Revelation. The wrath of Satan on God's wayward people (whom I hold to be the British, American and Austrailian peoples) - which comprises the Great Tribulation, of which 2/3 of us are wiped-out and the remainder taken into horrific captivity by this "Beast"  and the Wrath of God, which wipes out this future "Babylon".

The destruction of Babylon in Revelation is done by the Hand of God....the annihilation of our current system is by our own hand and by the wrath of men, instruments of The Prince and Power of the Air.

But I hold the principles of our annihilation to be nearly the same. Our destruction will come swiftly. Judgement is coming.

Get your house in order.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), October 14, 1999.

Invar,

I believe that not all will go into captivity-that God will provide a place of safety in the wilderness. Some will not experience a physical death but will have escaped, endured and survived and will see Him coming in the clouds. I don't want to be taken captive so I plan on being in a place of safety. Now if I only could figure out where that is??!

-- (I Believe (Repent@time is now.com)), October 14, 1999.

I Believe,

One of those places you speak of is in Brown County, Indiana.

May Gods Will Be done in all of our lives.

Mike

-- flierdude (Nospam@spam.spam), October 14, 1999.

I Believe, Yes, you are correct. There IS a place of safety.

Where the physical place He places his Name for His Remnant...I do not know.

It could be to where ever He has called us to prepare...or simply this is a staging area for the beginnings of Sorrows in which he may call His Faithful out to a place He has prepared?

Only speculation. Some have used the scripture of Rev. 12:14 to speculate God's church would be flown to the wilderness (Petra?) to be nourished and safe from the wrath of Satan. No one knows for sure but Him. So I'll be patient, but don't expect myself to be saved out of this mess as some believe.

We've been called to a life of persecution....but until now, have had it easy in this country...becoming fat, lazy and slothful to the point of Americanizing His Word, and watering it down, to where the churches have the form of religion, but deny the power of it.

Judgement is coming. And I have no dispersions that we faithful shall suffer right along with those that are going to pay for their unbelief and their sloth. Who and how and where those who would be saved in a Place of Safety is unimportant to me...but how I perservere and develop the Character He wants me to develop is the important thing.

This life is but a temporary trial of the greater Glory Man will yet inherit upon the fulfillment of His plan.

And let's be thankful for that.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), October 14, 1999.

Psalm 91

1 He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High, who abides in the shadow of the Almighty, 2 will say to the LORD, "My refuge and my fortress; my God, in whom I trust." 3 For he will deliver you from the snare of the fowler and from the deadly pestilence; 4 he will cover you with his pinions, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness is a shield and buckler. 5 You will not fear the terror of the night, nor the arrow that flies by day, 6 nor the pestilence that stalks in darkness, nor the destruction that wastes at noonday. 7 A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand; but it will not come near you. 8 You will only look with your eyes and see the recompense of the wicked. 9 Because you have made the LORD your refuge, the Most High your habitation, 10 no evil shall befall you, no scourge come near your tent. 11 For he will give his angels charge of you to guard you in all your ways. 12 On their hands they will bear you up, lest you dash your foot against a stone. 13 You will tread on the lion and the adder, the young lion and the serpent you will trample under foot. 14 Because he cleaves to me in love, I will deliver him; I will protect him, because he knows my name. 15 When he calls to me, I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble, I will rescue him and honor him. 16 With long life I will satisfy him, and show him my salvation. Psalms 91:1-16 (RSV)

-- BB (peace2u@bellatlantic.net), October 14, 1999.

1... He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High, who abides in the shadow of the Almighty, 2 will say to the LORD, "My refuge and my fortress; my God, in whom I trust." 3 For he will deliver you from the snare of the fowler and from the deadly pestilence; 4 he will cover you with his pinions, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness is a shield and buckler. 5 You will not fear the terror of the night, nor the arrow that flies by day, 6 nor the pestilence that stalks in darkness, nor the destruction that wastes at noonday. 7 A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand; but it will not come near you. 8 You will only look with your eyes and see the recompense of the wicked. 9 Because you have made the LORD your refuge, the Most High your habitation, 10 no evil shall befall you, no scourge come near your tent. 11 For he will give his angels charge of you to guard you in all your ways. 12 On their hands they will bear you up, lest you dash your foot against a stone. 13 You will tread on the lion and the adder, the young lion and the serpent you will trample under foot. 14 Because he cleaves to me in love, I will deliver him; I will protect him, because he knows my name. 15 When he calls to me, I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble, I will rescue him and honor him. 16 With long life I will satisfy him, and show him my salvation. Psalms 91:1-16 (RSV)

-- BB (peace2u@bellatlantic.net), October 14, 1999.

"IN A SINGLE HOUR ALL THIS WEALTH HAS BEEN LAID WASTE."

What, the trading curbs didn't kick in?

Actually, a serious, interesting, and thought provoking interpretation of Rev. 18...

-- Mad Monk (madmonk@hawaiian.net), October 14, 1999.

I posted the following some time ago; you may have missed it.

Despite protests to the contrary, the church can now understand most of Revelation and it appears that Jesus will probably return to Earth on or before the year 2007. Now before anyone assumes that statement to be heretical, please look at the following quote:

". . . and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till ALL THINGS are fulfilled" (Luke 21:24 and32).

Jerusalem was no longer under Gentile control as of June 6th, 1967 (that ended "the time of the Gentiles), and a Jewish generation is generally understood to be 40 years. So to find when to the end of all things might be requires a simple addition that anyone can do: AD1967 + 40 = AD2007.

So "all things," which certainly would include the return of Jesus, will probably take place on or before the year AD2007 or we will have to find a different interpretation for those verses. But even before that momentous event, two other prophecies in Revelation must be fulfilled:

(1) Babylon must fall. (2) The Battle of Armageddon must be fought.

Late eschatological studies indicate that Babylon of Rev 18 is the total socioeconomic system of the world. For years I wondered what could cause the collapse of this world's system in the figurative space of just "one hour," (taking Eze 4:5-6 into account, that would be two literal weeks as we count time). The total collapse of our infrastructure in just two weeks seemed most unlikely to me. Then right before our eyes, along comes Y2k, a little computer glitch that could cause just that! Y2k may trigger Revelation 18's fall of Babylon - the collapse of the world's total socioeconomic system; and the fall of Babylon is one of the last events that has to take place before the return of Jesus. It's not an Antichrist's conquest that's going to happen next, but a worldswide economic disaster:

Rev 18:11-13 "And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men."

With Armageddon concurrent or soon to follow. The doomers are saying we'd better head for the hills. Well, It appears that the prophet Zechariah (14:13) predicted total anarchy just before the end, and isn't anarchy the most likely fruit of the moral degeneracy and barbarism into which our country is sinking? If so, finding a good fox-hole suggests no more than Scripture does:

Isa 26:20-27:1 "Come, my people, enter thou into thy rooms, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent (i.e., Satan), even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

To me that passage sounds like preparedness and low-profile while God judges the enemy and his servants.

-- Elskon (elskon@bigfoot.com), October 14, 1999.

Sorry Elskon -- I've only been lurking since the first of October, and missed your post. Looking at the sequence of these posts: "ATA President: The (federal government's) air traffic control system is broken" and compare with our text:

Rev: 18:18 (Revised Steinbach Version)

"And every PILOT, and the entire voting memership of PATCO and the ATA, stood at a distance and cried out as they looked on the smoke of her conflagration, "what city was as great as this?"

It's this morning's headlines!

-- Roch Steinbach (rochsteinbach@excite.com), October 14, 1999.

You bunch of hose-headed bible thumpers.

When the afore mentioned calamities DO NOT OCCUR, then will you admit the book of the Revelation is FALSE, ergo the entire bible is subject to failure? Or will you slink away and whimper "It's a-coming, it a- coming Real Soon Now "?

SHEESH !!!

-- Satan (Satan@hell.gov), October 14, 1999.

You bunch of hose-headed bible thumpers.

When the afore mentioned calamities DO NOT OCCUR, then will you admit the book of the Revelation is FALSE, ergo the entire bible is subject to failure? Or will you slink away and whimper "It's a-coming, it's a-coming Real Soon Now "?

SHEESH !!!

-- Satan (Satan@hell.gov), October 14, 1999.

I know Dave Hunt sees no correlation between Y2K and the end times. He thinks it's too obvious.

But this I know.... He's coming again ..... real soon!

David Wilkerson "In my mind's eye I saw 1000 fires buring in New York City."

see these scary words.

New York city might be Babylon.

-- Friend (friend@friend.friend), October 14, 1999.

tons and tons of middle eastern monotheistic CRAP.

-- D E F (eattherich@mailcity.com), October 14, 1999.

DEF; Is that the most intelligent response you can find in your limited vocabulary? Do you need to be hooked on phonics? It's obvious that you don't have a clue regarding this subject, or would you wish to elaborate on your polytheistic paganism? Maybe you want to give mother earth a big hug?

-- Patrick (pmchenry@gradall.com), October 14, 1999.

He who believes in Jesus Christ as their personal savior,that he died (as a sacrifice) for all mankinds sin (including yours). Turn away from any sin you may have, and he will forgive you. Then you may rest in peace no matter whare you are when these troubles come to pass. He will save you. You will be a sealed child of God. Pardoned from Hell and Given the Gift of eternal life. It's that easy, if it wasn't no one would go to Heaven. Trust me, it's true.

-- No one important (peace@safty.com), October 14, 1999.

Satan , When the afore mentioned calamities DO OCCUR, then will you admit the book of Revelation is True? Will you bend your knee to the KING of KINGS and LORD of LORDS?

I doubt it, Your knees probably will have to be broken before you will kneel to the LORD. And then you will be shamed and humbled and then perhaps with your great pride gone you will be able to experence the joy of the forgivness and love of JESUS

-- Trick James (trickjames@hotmail.com), October 14, 1999.

Feeding the trolls is usually counter-productive, guys. But I tell you what, Patrick, Trick, and "no one umportant," I'm an editor at Fish House Publishing. Y'all e-mail me snail mail addresses and I'll send you one of our books on Revelation, for FREE. Might as well, it's doubtful if many folks will be buying books after Y2k hits.

-- Elskon (elskon@bigfoot.com), October 15, 1999.

Rosh, Jay and IVAR a book on Revelation for each of you guys too, if you wish. Just tell us where to send them.

-- Elskon (elskon@bigfoot.com), October 15, 1999.

Thanks for the offer Elskon, but I already have a book of Revelation...it's in my Bible.

All fourteen translations, and the original Greek texts that I have.

Isaiah and Daniel go a long way in helping me understand it.

The bible interprets itself stangely enough. You got to be careful of all these so-called Evangelists that claim to have the "Touch". I'd rather have the Bible's intepretation of itself as opposed to someone else's.

Scripture is something you should prove to yourself by study.

Be like a Berean, and hold fast to that which is good.

But I sincerely do appreciate your generous offer, but respectfully decline.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), October 15, 1999.

Folks

Usually I like to rant at the "bible and Y2K" but this has been an interesting thread. "Imaginitive" I like that :o). But there is high risk in taking the visionary sections of the Bible and applying them today. The meanings of the images are lost from the changing cultural values. Dangerous for mental stability.

Invar

I totally agree with the statements above mentioning that folks should engage in their own studies rather than from the pulpit. Hope you read the King James Version rather than the woosie want to be's.

-- Brian (imager@home.com), October 15, 1999.

Brian,

I use the King James, The New King James, Revised Standard, New International, American Standard, New American Standard, Naves Topical, Moffatt, Bishop's/ Geneva Bible and the Inductive Study versions coupled with the Hebrew text of Scripture and the Greek version of the New Testament.

Strong's Exhaustive helps get me through it all, and several bible encyclopedia's, dictionary's and Catholic Histories help put perspective to the writings. Josephus helps also.

Just to let you know so you can sleep nights.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), October 15, 1999.

INVAR

It is not a consern for the input but the beauty, I am more of an artistic type and the word of the bible is not as important as the impact. Mind you there are better directions depending on what you are looking for. There are many cultures.

Possibly if I need to make inquiries about the bible you could help me eh? :o)

By the way check this out.

Celtic

I carve crosses. (first link ever)

-- Brian (imager@home.com), October 15, 1999.

". . . and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till ALL THINGS are fulfilled" (Luke 21:24 and32).

If you study the taking of Jerusalem in 1917 by General Allenby of the British Army and understand the word British is translated Covenant People then you will know that the City was taken away from the Gentile Turks. And the story unfolds and, I think, WW1 was the beginning of the Great Battle.

-- Mark Hillyard (foster@inreach.com), October 15, 1999.

When I first read Gary North's site over a year ago, I figured at once that Y2K was the event that triggered the times being spoken of in the Book of Habakkuk. Read this book in the New International Version and then let us hear some comments. I think we should just skip the Revelation of Saint John for now and instead look to the passage "will not your debtors suddenly arise?"

-- Greg (brothergregory@hotmail.com), October 15, 1999.

Most Bible prophecies had a two-fold fulfilment, a typical and antitypical as it were. The destruction of the "world" or "system of things" implied in Rev. 18 is one good example, as it happened once before on a smaller scale: The destruction of Jerusalem, and with it the entire existence of the form of Judaism that was based on the Mosaic Law covenant started with Moses. That is a common typical fulfilment of most Biblical end-of-the-world prophecies.

Now, check Matthew 24 with its references to the end of the world. Specifically, check Matt. 24:1-22.

You'll probably notice mention of a "tribulation" and this tribulation would be REALLY bad: "(21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (22) And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

This tribulation has not started yet. Armageddon can't happen until it does. Therefore, we're all in for a longer, rougher ride than we might be thinking. (Encouraging, no?)

A few verses above, Jesus gives a critical clue to when the tribulation would begin. Matt. 24:15 reads "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)" This was fulfiled when the Roman army encircled Jerusalem in 66 CE. As soon as they left, the Jews that were "understanding" did as the next verse reads: "Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:"

When the Romans finally returned to destroy the city in 69-70 CE, they got inside the walls and stood in the temple courtyard bearing the idolatrous military unit standards, which were venerated with religions fervor by the Roman soldiers and thought of as disgusting by the Jews thanks to the anti-idolatry clause of Judaism. They formed the "abomination of desolation" that did truly and literally "stand in the holy place."

That was the typical fulfilment of Matt. 24:15-22. The result was the total devastation of an entire system that existed at the time and the final end of the position Israel enjoyed as God's favored people.

The antitypical fulfilment will, as is the case in all other antitypical fulfilments (such as Rev. 18 in earnest, which points to false religion in general, with its typical fulfilment having been the false version of Judaisim that existed in Jesus' day), be global in scope and has as of yet not happened.

Speculation abounds, but it's a distinct possibility that the United Nations, with its United Religions initiative, will be the new "abomination of desolation" and stand in a holy place in the sense that the UN will use its United Religions Council to impose the UN's collective will onto all major religions and destroy all minor ones, in the name of globalization and eliminating the fundamental belief differences that divide nations and ethnic groups. This is currently the only real possiblity that exists that'd fulfil the bulk of remaining Bible prophecy regarding Armageddon and the tribulation that preceeds it. This United Religions project is supposedly due to ratify its charter in March, 2000.

If all this is correct, we've got at least X number of years to go. If the antitypical fulfilment takes long as the typical fulfilment did, the tribulation would be about ten months long. There's no way to know that for sure though, as it's not mentioned anywhere in the Bible. (The seven-year duration of the tribulation some religions swear by apparently has no direct basis in Scripture.)

The smaller fulfilment offed about 85% (give or take) of the population of the system that was destroyed (1.1 million Jews killed, more than 150,000 captured, although accounts vary, and the est. population of Jerusalem at the time was about 1.6 million, of whom a few hundred thousand fled when the Romans left in 66 CE), and if that translates to global proportions we're going to see most of the planet's human population die off during this tribulation period and the remaining that God doesn't find favor with would be exterminated in Armageddon itself.

Suddenly, the stock market problems seem a bit less important...

That guy reads too much... Why do they call him --

-- OddOne (mocklamer_1999@yahoo.com), October 15, 1999.

Invar, Yes, I agree that we will suffer persecution along with those with unbelief. Character is important but don't count yourself out because God could have you in a place of safety and you might possibly persevere until the end and never face a physical death.

Ever since my mother was in high school, she always believed in her heart that she would be alive to see the Lord returning. She is 55 now and still believes that. By the way I enjoy your posts. You know the Bible so much better than I. I am still trying to get spiritually ready for these coming last days.

Oh I can't figure out how to link over but the website is: http://www.lionlamb.net Click on YOVOH newsletter and read Sept.(Converging on 2000) Oct. (The 70th Week of Israel) Interesting reading-it comes from a Messianic Jewish perspective. Shalom!

-- (I Believe (Repent@time is now.com)), October 15, 1999.

(((This tribulation has not started yet)))

Where is your scriptural support that there is going to be a FUTURE "Seven-Year Great tribulation?" Context shows that Dan 9:29 is to the Jewish people and about the city of Jerusalem. On what scriptural basis do you believe there to be a church fulfillment for that prophecy?

(((They formed the "abomination of desolation" that did truly and literally "stand in the holy place.")))

Late archeological evidence shows with some certainty that the "abomination that maketh desolate" of Dan 12:11 is the Muslim Dome of the Rock now standing in the old Court of the Gentiles.

(((the final end of the position Israel enjoyed as God's favored people.)))

Well, if memory serves, there is a new nation in the Holy Land called Israel and it is filled with people called Jews, many of whom are looking for the coming of their Messiah - and that fulfills more prophecies than I can count. Just because Pretrist doctrine and replacement theology declares that God is finished with His chosen poeple doesn't make it so. We cannot ignore the evidence of our own eyes, can we? Here is one a couple of passages that prove differently:

Lev 26:33-45 (excerpts) I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you . . . And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies lands . . . And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God . . But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.

That pretty well fits what has happened to the Jewish poeple over the last 2500 years, doesn't it? But God wasn't done with them. Look at what He told Jeremiah:

Jer 31:35-37 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Just look outside. Are the sun and moon and stars still in the sky? If so, then the Jews are still God's chosen people. There are a gaggle more quotes of the same nature, but we probably shouldn't chew up too much band width on this subject.

-- Elskon (elskon@bigfoot.com), October 16, 1999.

"Where is your scriptural support that there is going to be a FUTURE "Seven-Year Great tribulation?"

Actually it's more like 3-1/2 years of Tribulation (Satan's wrath) - but here ya go:

Jeremiah 30:3-7

Isaiah 12:1

Mathew 24:21-22,

Revelation 7:13-14

Rev: 11:2 (3-1/2 years)

NONE of these things have happened yet, for Messiah is not yet come again, and the the earth has yet to endure a time of trouble so great that it would eliminate all life, except that God shall cut it short.

Hasn't happened yet, so while the scriptures above may show the patrtial fulfillment in type, the final fulfillment has yet to occur. The Abomiation of Desolation happened in type during the Roman Sacking of Jerusalem in 70A.D. There is yet one more dual fulfillment to take place....and it may not be how everyone is expecting.

The Tribulation is Satan's wrath on God's people. The Wrath of God is on an unrepentant mankind AFTER the tribulation.

My study shows 3-1/2 years or 42 months mentioned in scripture.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), October 16, 1999.

INVAR, I hope you don't mind if I ask a few questions.

(((Actually it's more like 3-1/2 years of Tribulation (Satan's wrath))))

So where do you get the 3.5 years? You showed some references you considered to be about an end-time tribulation. I don't happen to think they are.

(((Jeremiah 30:3-7)))

Do you believe that the 6,000,000 Jews butchered by the Nazis during the holocaust wasn't bad enough to be called "Jacob's trouble?"

(((Isaiah 12:1)))

I fail to see how that verse applies to a great tribulation at all. Furthermore, since Isaiah is in the Old Testament and the end-times are not even mentioned in context, on what Scriptural basis do you assume that Isa 12:1 is even an end-time prophecy?

(((Matthew 24:21-22)))

Yes, great tribulation is mentioned here, but on what basis do you assume that it is still in our future? The Christian Era has now lasted almost 2000 years now. Don't you consider the upwards of 50,000,000 Christians killed during this era sufficiently gruesome to be classed as a great tribulation for the saints? How bad does one have to die for the faith for a Christian to be in great tribulation? Isn't being burned at the stake or wrapped in straw soaked in oil and lighted as a torch, or isn't being thrown in among serpents or thrown to the lions bad enough?

But on to another point: Note from Mat 24:29, and I quote: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. . ."

There is a period of time AFTER the tribulation but BEFORE Jesus returns in (Mat 24:31). How do you explain the period of time between the tribulation and Jesus gathering the saints?

(((Revelation 7:13-14)))

Tribulation is indeed mentioned in that passage, but on what basis do you assume that those saints are not the millions of Christians who have already been killed throughout this era?

(((Rev: 11:2 (3-1/2 years))))

Sorry, the 42 months are not 3.5 years. According to Eze 4:5-6 "I give you a day for a year," those 42 months are 1278.34 years. Jerusalem was freed from Gentile control in 1967 - 1278.34 = 688.66AD.

688AD is when the Muslims built the Dome of the Rock, the "Abomination that Maketh Desolate" on the temple mount - in the court of the Gentiles. The temple of Solomon containing the Kodesh ha Kodeshim (Holy of Holies) was some 300 feet to the north. Documentation: the lead article in "Biblical Archeology Review," Mar 1993.

>>>NONE of these things have happened yet<<<

On what basis can you state that so categorically? Rev 1:1 declares that Jesus is telling us of those things that "WILL SHORTLY COME TO PASS." Shortly certainly isn't 2000 years down the line. So what is your scriptural reason for assuming that Revelation isn't a figurative picture of the whole Christian Era?

(((The Abomination of Desolation happened in type during the Roman Sacking of Jerusalem in 70A.D.)))

Brother, if you are really going to be a Berean, you need to study Scripture APART from our end-time traditions. Interpreting the Roman sacking of Jerusalem as the Abomination of Desolation is the Preterist view, sure enough, authored by the Jesuit priest Alquzar, back in the 1600s - but his view can no longer be scripturally or archeologically supported.

(((The Tribulation is Satan's wrath on God's people.)))

Satan can do nothing unless God permits it - Jesus won a total victory on the Cross. However, "Satan does go forth with great wrath," but as mentioned above, the epochal period of the tribulation has already happened, and the prophecy you are alluding to (Rev 12:12) began to be fulfilled after the new nation of Israel was established in 1948.

IMHO, you shouldn't have been quite so reluctant to accept the free book I offered you.

-- Elskon (elskon@bigfoot.com), October 17, 1999.

Do you guys have ANY idea how tough it is to read threads, and hunt ref's in both the KJV and the Study Bible I'm using just to try to KEEP UP??? PHRATZ Phellas,

Just tryin' to keep up...

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), October 17, 1999.

>>>"So where do you get the 3.5 years?"<<<

42 months delineated in scripture is 3-1/2 years.

>>>"Do you believe that the 6,000,000 Jews butchered by the Nazis during the holocaust wasn't bad enough to be called "Jacob's trouble?"<<<

And the millions butchered under Stalin, Pol Pot, Sri Lanka etc., were they not even more heinous than what the remnant tribes of Judah, Benjamin and Levi suffered?

The bible is plain and clear, it will be a time of trial unlike the world has EVER seen, nor ever shall again. It didn't say "a time of trial unlike the Jews have ever seen, nor ever shall again". We've seen great holocausts since the Nazi's were stopped in the mid '40's. The Nazi Holocaust perpetrated on the Jews was not the last, nor the most horrific genocides that have taken place since 1945. So the Nazi Holocaust WAS NOT the Great tribulation.

>>>" (((Isaiah 12:1)))"<<<

SORRY, THAT WAS BRAIN-LOCK ON MY PART. Isaiah 12:1 IS NOT about the Tribulation. Apologies.

>>>"(((Matthew 24:21-22)))

Yes, great tribulation is mentioned here, but on what basis do you assume that it is still in our future?<<<

"And unless those days be shortened, (Messiah's return) NO FLESH WOULD BE SAVED ALIVE. The world has yet to reach that level of complete annihilation.

>>>"The Christian Era has now lasted almost 2000 years now. Don't you consider the upwards of 50,000,000 Christians killed during this era sufficiently gruesome to be classed as a great tribulation for the saints? How bad does one have to die for the faith for a Christian to be in great tribulation? Isn't being burned at the stake or wrapped in straw soaked in oil and lighted as a torch, or isn't being thrown in among serpents or thrown to the lions bad enough? <<<"

You're relying on YOUR definition of what tribulation is. You're ignoring what GOD's definition of Tribulation is. It doesn't matter what you or I suppose is sufficient for the definition, it's what God determines what is considered "wrath" and Tribulation.

>>>"But on to another point: Note from Mat 24:29, and I quote: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. . ."

There is a period of time AFTER the tribulation but BEFORE Jesus returns in (Mat 24:31). How do you explain the period of time between the tribulation and Jesus gathering the saints?<<<"

The Wrath of God on an unrepentant mankind. Read the about the Woes and 7 Thunders of Revelation. They are dual in type to the plagues God poured out on an unrepentant Egypt.

>>>"(((Revelation 7:13-14)))

Tribulation is indeed mentioned in that passage, but on what basis do you assume that those saints are not the millions of Christians who have already been killed throughout this era?"<<<

Scripture refers to only ONE type of "Great" tribulation. The one Jesus declared in Mathew 24:21. It is TIME SPECIFIC. It was answered in response to the question the Disciples asked Him of "WHEN shall the end of the age come and what will be the sign of Your coming?" Again it has a dual fulfillment in type that the Age of the Jews ended at the crucifixion when the veil was torn in two (spiritual), and the physical age ended at the seige of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. It has yet to be fulfilled fully, for Christ has not yet returned. If the complete fulfillment of that prophecy was to have taken place at 70A.D., then the globe needed to be on the brink of annihilation, with Christ coming in the clouds to end it.

Also, according to Josephus, NO FLESH WAS SAVED ALIVE during the seige of Jerusalem. Mothers ate their own children and it was torched and pummelled to the ground.

>>>"(((Rev: 11:2 (3-1/2 years))))

Sorry, the 42 months are not 3.5 years. According to Eze 4:5-6 "I give you a day for a year," those 42 months are 1278.34 years. Jerusalem was freed from Gentile control in 1967 - 1278.34 = 688.66AD.

688AD is when the Muslims built the Dome of the Rock, the "Abomination that Maketh Desolate" on the temple mount - in the court of the Gentiles. The temple of Solomon containing the Kodesh ha Kodeshim (Holy of Holies) was some 300 feet to the north. Documentation: the lead article in "Biblical Archeology Review," Mar 1993. <<<"

Day for a year does not apply to every mention of a date in scripture. Rev. 11:2 says "Forty and two months", it does not say "Forty and Two days" of which you might have a case. MONTHS was specific here. You're trying to affix specific DATES using numerology to arrive at a TIME, when Jesus clearly said "No man knows the day nor the hour", He Himself didn't even know, but "My Father in heaven Only". We are charged with watching the SIGNS of the times.

>>>"NONE of these things have happened yet.

On what basis can you state that so categorically? Rev 1:1 declares that Jesus is telling us of those things that "WILL SHORTLY COME TO PASS." Shortly certainly isn't 2000 years down the line (Again YOUR definition of time and not God's). So what is your scriptural reason for assuming that Revelation isn't a figurative picture of the whole Christian Era?"<<<

Because Revelation ENDS with the Triumphant Rulership of God Most High on this earth, and all tears and sufferings are wiped away! The Christian Era has brought NO PEACE, and mainly war and suffering. These fruits are not of God.

Look at this world man! Can you honestly say that the Reign of The Most High has taken place during the last bloody and horrifying 2,000 years? Has Christ returned already? If He has, WHERE'S THE PROOF?

God is NOT THE AUTHOR OF CONFUSION. And that is all this world has been steeped in for 2,000 years. So the Church Era IS NOT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

>>>"Brother, if you are really going to be a Berean, you need to study Scripture APART from our end-time traditions. Interpreting the Roman sacking of Jerusalem as the Abomination of Desolation is the Preterist view, sure enough, authored by the Jesuit priest Alquzar, back in the 1600s - but his view can no longer be scripturally or archeologically supported.<<<"

You're dead wrong. Go and read Josephus' History of the Jews. The First century Church fled to the mountains when the ROMANS BESEIGED JERUSALEM. They assumed Christ would return at that time. Alquzar couldn't have MADE UP the story of the sacking of Jerusalem, IT HAPPENED. Jesus had warned them on His way to Golgotha that they should weep for themselves and their children, for those that had no children would be considered "blessed"

>>>"Satan can do nothing unless God permits it - Jesus won a total victory on the Cross"<<<

Yes, agreed..

>>>" However, "Satan does go forth with great wrath," but as mentioned above, the epochal period of the tribulation has already happened, (No it hasn't) and the prophecy you are alluding to (Rev 12:12) began to be fulfilled after the new nation of Israel was established in 1948.<<<"

Incorrect sir. The bloodline tribe of Judah, Benjamin and Levi are only mentioned with the other lost ten tribes at the time of the SEALING from the Wrath of God in Rev. 7.

Give me scriptural and factual proof to prove what you claim, in that Revelation was fulfilled after Israel was established as a nation in 1948. There are only THREE descendent tribes of Israel currently residing there. Where are the Ten from the Northern Kingdom that would comprise a BIBLICAL nation of Israel?

The world is in the grip of evil and chaos. God cannot be ruling this earth in this condition, Christ CANNOT have returned with this kind of confusion and misery rampant.

I know from what tradition you are speculating, and I can assure you, that I do not hold, nor will consider that position as God has led me to a completely different understanding than what you posess.

Let us agree therefore that this nation and world need God, and that we both look forward to that Great Day when all nations and kindreds and tongues are at peace with Him Most High.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), October 17, 1999.

(((And the millions butchered under Stalin, Pol Pot, Sri Lanka etc., were they not even more heinous than what the remnant tribes of Judah, Benjamin and Levi suffered?)))

Sure, but according to you, that is not bad enough to be the tribulation. LOL

The bible is plain and clear, it will be a time of trial unlike the world has EVER seen, nor ever shall again.

Wasn't it, and isn't it? Many Christian historians believe that more believers have died for their faith in this century alone than in all other centuries of this era combined. But according to you that's still not bad enough to be THE tribulation.

(((So the Nazi Holocaust WAS NOT the Great tribulation.)))

Of course not, because you do not define the whole by a part, however it was part of the tribulation. (((It doesn't matter what you or I suppose is sufficient for the definition, it's what God determines what is considered "wrath" and Tribulation.)))

Very good, now we're getting somewhere. Read the following: Rev 1:9 (NAS) I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in THE tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos, because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

Now TE, (tau eta, is the Greek definite article. Translated "the" in English, TE is in the Rev 1:9 Greek text. So John was in THE tribulation. Not A tribulation or ONE of several tribulations. That definite article suggests that there is only ONE tribulation, just like we would say, "the" Washington Monument. Great Tribulation of the saints has continued throughout this era, so it is reasonable to conclude that "the tribulation" of the saints is God's name for this Era. The word "tribulation" itself is translated from the Greek word "thlipsis," which appears 45 times in the N.T. In all but a couple of instances, that "thlipsis" happens to the saints. "Orgy" or "thumos," (God's wrath) is only poured out upon the ungodly.

(((Scripture refers to only ONE type of "Great" tribulation. The one Jesus declared in Matthew 24:21. It is TIME SPECIFIC. It was answered in response to the question the Disciples asked Him of "WHEN shall the end of the age come and what will be the sign of Your coming?")))

The sign of your coming does not limit the fulfillment to just the last few years of this Era. Matter of fact, the greatest sign of Jesus' return is the new nation of Israel, which is not even mentioned in Mat 24 but in Luk 21. There are three records of the Olivette Discourse You need to study them all to get the full sense of what Jesus told the Apostles:

Luke 21:24 and they (the Jews) will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Now Jerusalem was under Gentile control all the way from the 1st century to this one and the "time of the Gentiles" didn't end until 1948. Therefore we can PROVE that the Olivette Discourse covered more than what the apostles asked. It included the whole Christian Era. "Nation shall rise against nation" didn't just happen by 70AD nor here at the end, but throughout this whole era. "Gospel preached in the whole world" didn't happen by 70AD nor just here at the end, so your so-called date specificity may be a tad broader than you surmise. And besides, in Mat 24:25, Jesus told the disciples that His discourse was more comprehensive than their questions.

(((Day for a year does not apply to every mention of a date in scripture.)))

I don't claim that it does, but it does apply in all APOCALYPTIC Scripture unless God Himself does away with the definition. Can you show me anywhere in Scripture where God has abrogated that principle?

As regards the 42 months. You said: ((("NONE of these things have happened yet.)))

Oh, but they have. That you have not seen them is unfortunate, indeed. There are over a dozen day-year and time prophecies covering up to 2573 years that fit right to the year. Here are just three of them:

Dan 12:11 - 1290 Hebrew day-years from the abolition of sacrifices in Daniel's time to the Muslim Dome of the Rock 583BC + 1271.34 = 688AD. If you question the 583BC date for the abolition of sacrifices, read Jer 41:5 and 52:30. Sacrifices were abolished at the final deportation in the 23rd year of Nebuchadnezzar, not when the temple was burned in 586BC. Rev 11: 2 - 42 months of day-years from the freeing of Jerusalem back to the Muslim Dome of the Rock, 1967AD -1278.34 = 688.66AD Rev 12:6 - 1260 days for Israel in the wilderness of the nations 1948 - 1260 + 688AD

Know anything about the science of probability? If so, give me the odds.

I also said: Shortly certainly isn't 2000 years down the line. Your reply:

(((Again YOUR definition of time and not God's.)))

You've been listening to Klintonoff too long. (s) What is the dictionary definition of shortly? God inspired the Bible to communicate, which does not include questionable definitions of the words He chose to use.

I also asked: So what is your scriptural reason for assuming that Revelation isn't a figurative picture of the whole Christian Era?" Your reply gave me what you believed, which was nice, but you gave no biblical references in support for your view. (((Look at this world man! Can you honestly say that the Reign of The Most High has taken place during the last bloody and horrifying 2,000 years?)))

I don't need to say it, because God's Word does: Eph 1: 20-23, 1Pe 2:9, Rev 1:6 and 5:10.

(((Has Christ returned already? If He has, WHERE'S THE PROOF?)))

LOL, you're off in space. I haven't claimed that Jesus has returned. I am looking for Him just like you are.

(((So the Church Era IS NOT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.)))

Not the timeless ETERNAL kingdom of course, but you really do need to accept Eph 1:20-23 1Pe 2:9, Rev 1:6 and 5:10 at face value. According to all those verses we are in the kingdom of the Lord Jesus right now.

(((Alquzar couldn't have MADE UP the story of the sacking of Jerusalem, IT HAPPENED.)))

I didn't say he did. I said Alquzar came up with the story that the Abomination that Maketh Desolate was the Roman destruction of Jerusalem. A view that can now be proven to be false doctrine.

(((Give me scriptural and factual proof to prove what you claim, in that Revelation was fulfilled after Israel was established as a nation in 1948.)))

I tried to give you that proof, but you refused the free book I offered that contains it. Furthermore, I didn't claim that ALL of Revelation was fulfilled in the new nation of Israel, just part of it.

(((There are only THREE descendent tribes of Israel currently residing there. Where are the Ten from the Northern Kingdom that would comprise a BIBLICAL nation of Israel?)))

Again, I tried to give you that information, but you refused the book I offered.

((( The world is in the grip of evil and chaos. God cannot be ruling this earth in this condition, Christ CANNOT have returned with this kind of confusion and misery rampant.)))

Nobody is claiming that Jesus has physically returned, but to deny that we are His priests and kings in His spiritual kingdom that exists right now is to go directly against the Bible. Jesus kingdom is not of this world so neither is mine.

(((I know from what tradition you are speculating)))

That's not likely. I am a Bible scholar who has studied Revelation for over 50 years. I am not concerned with anyone's tradition, only truth.

(((I can assure you, that I do not hold, nor will consider that position as God has led me to a completely different understanding than what you possess.)))

Not holding a different view is fine, but not considering one is errant hubris. Nobody has a lock on the truth. The Holy Spirit reveals various truths to others as the Father wills, so I have found it wise to listen to all the brethren, including you, because I am far more concerned with truth than with defending my personal "revelation," not that I ever claimed to have one.

(((Let us agree therefore that this nation and world need God, and that we both look forward to that Great Day when all nations and kindreds and tongues are at peace with Him Most High.)))

Absolutely, and may the peace of Christ be with you.

-- Elskon (elskon@bigfoot.com), October 17, 1999.

Hey IVAR:

We must be trying Ed Yourdins' kindness and patience with long posts on non-Y2k related subjects. Let's go e-mail if we want to continue. This is a good forum and I sure don't want to abuse it.

-- Elskon (elskon@bigfoot.com), October 17, 1999.