Are Gary North & I the only two on the planet looking forward to this ending the day of the bureaucrat? The reasoning may sound shocking to the uninitiated, but if you lay the bill of rights next to the communist manifesto, there's no denying what type of system we currently toil under. With all ten planks firmly in place and Keynesian economics stealing what the confiscatory taxation leaves behind, I'm personally sick to death of it. This whole thing has been turned on it's ear and we all carp about the symptoms. It isn't that I want to see the end of civilization; we HAVE no civilization! In fact the word civilization has no respectable seat at the table in any discussion on the affairs of this world. I won't go into a full-blown rant but if God doesn't bring judgement on this land, he'll owe sodom & gommorah an apology. Personally, if y2k doesn't bring this whole hedonistic society down around our ears, I'll be a bit disappointed...

-- Patrick (pmchenry@gradall.com), October 07, 1999

Answers

You, sir, are the definition of a troll.

-- Don't feed (the@trolls.--please), October 07, 1999.

I second it! It is strange that the American slaves, don't know they are slaves!!!! Talk about blind and complacent!

-- smitty (smitty@sandiego.com), October 07, 1999.

I second Patrick, not the other blind American! Only 5% of Americans know what really goes on in America! The rest are blind as a bat and just go on paying taxes they are not required to pay!

There is no law that says Americans are required to pay income tax! Then why are they paying taxes? Because they are "SHEEPLE!!!"

In 3 months the irs will shut down!!!

But even after they shut down there will be sheeple that will continue paying taxes! IDIOTS!!!!

-- smitty (smitty@sandiego.com), October 07, 1999.

Patrick,

Actually, I am NOT looking forward to it. The prospect of going back to a 'stoop labor' farm, which I remember from spending summers with my grandmother, back before Mississippi paved the last of their state 'highways', doesn't at all please an fat 50 year old with a bad back, bad knees, and swivel chair spread from the last 4 years trying to hold back the sea with a teaspoon! (Y2K remediation being like that.)

The fact that I consider Paul Milne an optimist should tell you where I am on the spectrum, but that doesn't mean I've got to like it. The system could be changed, (I do agree that we absolutely ought to return to a representative republic based on the constitution that our founding fathers gave us), but I'd sure rather see it done without it meaning the whole world is caving in around our heads.

I mean, most of the GI's won't actually look at what is all too likely to happen. I can't believe even the *pollies* can believe in a 0-4 at this point, not with the sort of examples that have already been seen, such as the unemployment fiascos earlier this year, the way Point of Sale terminals have been going toes-up over the last couple of years every time they saw a '00' expiration date, and the plain fact is that I cannot envisiion any scenario above the 0-4 range which doesn't result in a disaster. And I am not talking 'Road Warrior'. That doesn't play. I'm talking about trucking companies unable to dispatch because all the old hands who knew how to do it manually are gone. Same with railroads. Without those, forget about the power plants, how the heck do you get the food from where it is processed to where it is eaten?

If the power goes out, in some areas of the country, that is the equivalent of a death sentence without some sort of emergency 'warming centers', and that appears to be what a lot of people are counting on, but how the heck do you do that when it isn't a three state or five state area, but everything north of the Mason-Dixon line? When you can't get resources from the next town over, how do you get them half way across the country.

And the fact is, that the hedonistic society truly is global. If we go, Japan goes, and vice-versa. Worse, most of the third world isn't NEAR as independent of modern technology as everyone seems to think. If anything, they may well turn out to be MORE dependent. Remember, India has famines every third year, so does China, and that is with EVERYTHING WORKING! And with outside aid measured in the 10 of billions of dollars. What do you suppose they will be like without outside (1st world) help?

And make no mistake, I do not expect the US, or indeed any of the western world to be in any shape to help. Most of Europe got such a late start that it is laughable that anyone believes the reports of expected 100% compliance by Dec. coming from over there. Which I guess shows that one believes that which one *wants* to believe, to the exclusion of 'facts'.

I expect Y2K solve the 'civilization' problem you allude to, but dear GOD I wish that it wasn't. Because in addition to the immoral and unethical, it is going to catch everyone else in the gears too. And we are all going to too busy worrying about how the heck our ancestors managed to make do with the two or three acres of produce which is about all that sheer human muscle power can manage to cultivate.

-- just another (another@engineer.com), October 07, 1999.

Patrick,

If God does not judge the wicked then He would be unjust, thus making Himself out to be a liar. Because He spoke it, WE KNOW that He will bring it to pass. The question is ...WHEN?

I agree that it seems obvious that this country is long past due, but it is also obvious that He is more patient than we are...so whether Y2K plays a role in His judgement upon Western Civilization or not, I don't know. I believe that whatever happens it will not be TEOTWAWKI...the word of God must come to pass "The Lord said to my Lord: 'Sit Thou at My right hand, until I make Thy foes Thy footstool.'", and "Every knee must bow and every tongue confess that 'Jesus Christ is Lord'".

-- TM (mercier7@pdnt.com), October 07, 1999.

Patrick,

No, you and Gary are definitely not alone. I agree that it is time to destroy this paradigm and start over from square one. There isn't much point in trying to change course little by little when we are headed so far in the wrong direction. When the status quo has gone so far astray from what we are capable of, why are people so afraid of change?

Picasso once said, "Every act of creation is first an act of destruction".

It's time to burn this house to the ground.

-- @ (@@@.@), October 07, 1999.

It is strange, to see that we may very well be on the edge of a cliff - - a cliff that may send us to an "earlier" time. Yet, if you look at Man's capacity, it really hasn't changed much, except technologically.

I think there are many ways to look at life. This situation (Y2K) does not validate any "view" more that any other, other than to say that as Mankind, we are in a predicament. I don't see the fundamental nature or character of Man changing all that much, even if we have to endure the worst from Y2K. So, as much as I'd like what's probably going to happen -in 80 some odd days - to be some kind of GIANT reforming, or LESSON #102 finally learned -, I doub't that will happen. Which is kind of sad.

Just my thoughts on a late Wed. night.

-- Gregg (g.abbott@starting-point.com), October 07, 1999.

more god crap ... 2000 years of pain and bullshit hasn't taught man how to use his own brain yet... *sigh*

-- D E F (eattherich@mailcity.com), October 07, 1999.

calm down zoobie

-- humptydumpty (no.6@thevillage.com), October 07, 1999.

No, you are not alone. The time is soon at hand when those who have prepared will control the lives of those who did not. This is definitely something to look forward to.

-- (its@coming.soon), October 07, 1999.

I'm ready to go through hell(as ready as I'll ever be). If it comes, so be it. If not, so be it.

-- CygnusXI (noburnt@toast.net), October 07, 1999.

"...those who have prepared will control the lives of those who did not." I prepared, - but not for that reason. I have no intention or desire to control ANYONE. That would not be anything to look forward to. That's not even healthy thinking.

It was probably a trolling comment to highlight the negative direction this thread is going. (Wishing for the system to crash and burn.) But, on the off chance that it is sincere, gotta get in my "NOT".

The system that we are living with is a far cry from good, - but that kind of take on this is considerably worse. No one should think of their hard work and expense to provide for their family during the uncertainty of what is coming, as a means to CONTROL other people.

That puts you back to being "part of the problem".

-- homestead2 (homestead@monroecty.net), October 07, 1999.

While I despise the way our once-beautiful republic has been perverted into a bureaucratic prison, there is absolutely no reason to expect that Y2K survivors will have a fraction of the wisdom of our Founding Fathers. Indeed, there is every reason to expect that things will degenerate to the lowest common denominator---chronic violence. We may well be headed for a new Dark Age.

-- Y2K Pioneer (Pioneer@aol.org), October 07, 1999.

How did I get pulled into this??

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), October 07, 1999.

---

"I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Patrick Henry Speech, 23 March 1775, Virginia House of Delegates, Richmond.

---

We could all learn from a study of our past.

Thank God that we have minds which question where we are.

---

-- no talking please (breadlines@soupkitchen.gov), October 07, 1999.

If it all came crashing down, what type of government would we have afterwards? No doubt we would be invaded by China or Russia...hmmmmm

-- could happen (couldhappen@couldhappenn.xcom), October 07, 1999.

I think the "controlling other people" comment may take it a bit far, but really, I think many of us realize what's being set up here. The GIs will be the only ones prepared for what's coming, and whether we like it or not, we'll be in a position to set the direction after TSTHF. You've seen all the responses to the Pollys in other threads like "wait until you're starving and dying and then you come running to us!!" What do you think they're trying to say? Be honest with yourselves and admit that it wouldn't be such a bad thing to make the Pollys pay a little for their ignorance, scorn, and ridicule.

-- (brett@miklos.org), October 07, 1999.

I don't believe China or Russia is going to be a significant threat after Y2K. Russia is teetering on the brink and China can't cross the puddle to get at us. Most likely both nations will be too busy trying to feed their own people to bother the U.S. Essentially, it will be every nation for itself.

Tim

-- Tim the Y2K nut (tmiley@yakko.cs.wmich.edu), October 07, 1999.

You will always have selfish, narcissistic leaders if people are willing to follow them.

I think the suffering about to ensue will be devastating to us all and I don't welcome it.

On the postive side for generations to come will be the stopping of the CORPORATE monsters--not the politicians, who, to my mind, are irrelevant. The corporations like Monsanto that are manipulating nature must be stopped or the species will die entirely. It is the aggragation of power into the few hands of corporate control that represent the risk, not to our way of life alone, but to humanity. This might do what the DoJ couldn't and break the monopolies. Yet, personally, I don't want to see it because of all the grief that this thing will cause. I would rather go along with the program. However, it's not my choice, is it?

-- Mara Wayne (MaraWayne@aol.com), October 07, 1999.

06/18/2000 "..... Well, sir, I cna see you and your family are in dire straits and would like to become members of our little settlement here. And we'd be glad to have you. Just a couple of questions first. Your political affiliation? Your religious affiliation? Have you ever held public office, been a lawyer, legal counsel, abortion advisor, a member of a federal, state or local law enforcement agency, welfare receipient, IRS employee or televangelist? You have? Okay, stand over there against that wall please while I process your membership application.... and have a nice day."

heh heh heh heh heh

-- Ol' Scratch (satan@hell.gov), October 07, 1999.

I am in 100% agreement with you Patrick. Judgement must come. And by all counts we will suffer for our own iniquity as a people. This doesn't mean I'm looking forward to this...or even hoping for it. Yes, I am sick-to-death of this current nonsense and socialism masquerading as Democracy, I am burning with the hatred of the increasing assaults on our liberties to the point of defending them with a loaded weapon. I am cut to the heart over the rejoicings of evil and denouncements of good in our society...and for these reasons I see the need for our annihilation at our own hands.

I believe we will lose 2/3 of our people, 1/3 to conflict and a 1/3 to disease and famine. The third that is left is enslaved in brutal fashion. I do not look forward to this, as I will be found somewhere within that sum unless God keeps the hedge about us. I look at this coming Judgement no different than Christ did when he beheld Jerusalem and wept aloud and cried that they "Only knew the hour of their visitation" forseeing the sack by the Romans in 70 AD.

I would rather this nation wake up to our physical and spiritual condition, and do an overnight about-face to save us from destruction.....

...But that doesn't appear likely. Unlike Nineveh, America is filled with itself and hates being told they have sinned.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), October 07, 1999.

INVAR

I've watched you talk about 'losing our freedom' and 'becoming slaves' all the time. I'm curious about something.

What, exactly, is it that you want to do that you are not allowed to do anymore? What liberties have you lost??

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), October 07, 1999.

Deano,

We have all lost MANY liberties, willingly trading them for safety and perceived security. Many of these lost freedoms are not even written in Law or Ammendment, but are ensconced in ordinance and policy.

When groups speaking out against our government (ie: The heritage Foundation) are invaded by the IRS, and forced out of business through punative litigation and taxation, We have lost the right to free political speech.

If I tell a gender-based joke about my wife and women in general in the office, and another female employee overhears me and files suit with the EEOC, forcing my termination for "Hate Speech", I've lost my freedom of speech and expression. The same is true if I had told a minority-based joke, or complained about a minority or their politics.

The same is also true if I put a picture of my wife in a bikini on my desk, and another female employee files suit against the company for fostering a "Hostile Work Environment".

My Second Ammendment Rights were suspended without consent in the area I was from. I was subject to Unconstitutional Municipal Search and Seizure for nothing more than living in a townhouse or apartment wherein the ordinance forbade any private ownership of a firearm.

I risk losing my children if I administer corporal punishment and a school social worker at school finds out. I'm not talking beatings, but a spanking on the behind.

I am not free to educate my child as I see fit, by either home schooling or private schooling without governmental regulation and observation.

My neighbor was restricted from building a home on his privately owned land because part of his property was designated a "Wetland". The rights of private property ownership in this nation has been lost to regulation and taxation. Don't pay your property tax and you'll find out who really owns your land. In some cases, private land has been confiscated WITHOUT compensation.

These are some personal examples. For the nation at large, we have lost the freedom to:

Pursue business without governmental regulation and dictate.

Conduct business without government-sponsored litigation. (ie: Tobacco and gun mfrs.) They also cannot advertise how and where they wish (an abridgement of their 1st Ammendment rights).

Pray in a public school if we wish, yet Congress is opened with each session in prayer.

Purchase a car through private transaction without government reporting and taxation.

Purchase a firearm without my name on some government list. In some areas, you cannot purchase a firearm at all, nor even posess them.

Obtain a job or open a bank account without a Federal Social Security number. You also cannot enroll a child in school or schedule a doctor visit without one.

Fish or hunt on your own land without a license of permit granted by the government.

Pursue certain medical treatments and medicines that are not Federally approved.

Have Boy Scout or religious conventions in public buildings...but Atheists and Gay groups can protest on private church property with impugnity.

I cannot publicly burn a rainbow flag without being arrested for "hate speech" but you can burn the American flag or use it for toilet paper and receive a free grant of my government tax money to display it as art.

We have lost the freedom of an unbiased press, and the ability to receive broadcast news without filtering and political spin being applied. The internet is the last bastion of free reporting, and it won't be long before this too is regulated.

We cannot question the government or officials about sensitive matters without the threat of physical or political danger to ourselves, business and families.

We have lost the freedom to obtain employment if we are best qualified, in favor of minority and gender quota. likewise, private business has lost the freedom to hire whom they deem best suited for the job. Business has also lost the freedom to fire or terminate an employee without fear of retaliation via lawsuit or government intervention.

Business has lost the right to decide their own market wages. The government dictates the minimum wage...making them less competitive in a global marketplace costing American jobs.

You do not have the freedom to rent dwellings to whom you choose.

You do not have the freedom to sell your home to whom you choose.

Private clubs have lost the freedom to restrict membership.

Private schools and academies have lost the freedom to restrict enrollment and maintain private standards. They have also lost the freedom to demand excellence, and are forced to adopt accepting mediocrity.

We have lost the freedom to determine what social bullcrap our schools teach our kids. In some states, you will lose your freedom to Home- school your own kids without being state or government certified.

Private bars and clubs have lost the right to allow smokers to engage in enjoying a legal substance on their property.

Homeowners have lost the freedom to make improvements to their homes and property without permits and permission from the government.

We have lost the freedom of personal responsibility in favor of governmental dependence.

I could go on and on and on. But I am encouraging others to chime in here.

If you think we are a free people to decide our own destiny without having to circumvent the ever-increasing grip of government on our wallets and lives...you are truly duped.

And Deano....

We have lost the freedom to be honest without scorn, ridicule and persecution. We have lost the freedom to hear and expect the truth from our elected and business leadership.

And we have lost all of these willingly.

Anyone else got something I missed?

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), October 07, 1999.

INVAR

Wow. I'm not sure what to say. You listed a lot more than I had thought of. (I know, a dangling preposition. Shame on me.)

I'm not sure you can blame ALL of that on the government though. Weren't a lot of those changes a result of law suits??

I think the lawyers are as much to blame as the politicians. I'm not a fan of either BTW.

Wish I had more time today to discuss this today but the children await.

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), October 07, 1999.

GO Invar!!!! excellent list, I fully agree with you, BUT I would like for Y2K to be mild, so that we can attempt change via a political revolution -before we have to have a civil war.

Deano- Lawyers ARE (for the most part) Politicians. The two are different sides of the same coin and are the "plague upon our house's".

-- Brent James Bushardt (brentj@webt.com), October 07, 1999.

Deano,

Does it matter how our freedoms are lost? Be it Litigation or legislation? Our freedoms are gone. They do not come back.

I think the insidiousness of our loss of freedom has been the slow encroachments made over the last 40 years, and the social brainwashing our people have unwittingly been subject by the few elites running our media and educational institutions.

This is not to place blame except on ourselves. Both you and I and all our neighbors are responsible for this mess we're in, by not standing up early enough and demand that it stop.

Oh, a few more freedoms that has been lost. How about the freedom to die and leave an inheritance for your descendants without having it confiscated by the federal government?

How about the loss of the freedom to have HALF of the money you earn, be spent or saved how you wish? You don't have that half because the government takes half of it in punitive taxation. You also lose the freedom to have a wife stay home and care for the kids because you both have to work, because one of you is working to just pay taxes?

How about the loss of freedom to make as much money as you want, without having to fork it over in ever-increasing amounts by a greedy bloated government?

How about the loss of incentive to make that money because the more you make, the more is taken? (percentage-wise).

Then there's the loss of freedom to publicly reject views you don't agree with, without fear of investigation and possible imprisonment for violating tolerance laws.

We have lost the freedom to kill pesky varmints and rodents without going to jail for animal cruelty. I'm talking rats here, not some exotic African Anteater.

We've lost the freedom to defend ourselves against violent attack, and risk lawsuit if we kill or injur an intruder in the process of robbing or raping the inhabitants.

How about the freedom to be a stupid idiot? You don't have the right to be an idiot because you have to:

- wear a seatbelt

- wear a helmet while on a motorcycle or bicycle

- purchase a car-seat for your kids

- have a smoke-detector in your home

failure to comply with these regulations at your cost can result in fines and possible jailtime. So much for being an idiot freely.

Then there's local losses (depending on where you are) of freedom to:

-Burn leaves in your own backyard -own a car that doesn't pass an emission test -own and use gas-powered leaf blowers -express yourself with creative finger gestures while driving -have political signs in your yard or window

-landcape or clearcut trees on your property without permit

I am aware about community standards and practices, that's not what I'm addressing. I'm talking about LAWS and ORDINANCES that are enacted to assuage a few at the cost of the majority.

Because we all demand RIGHTS and COMFORTS, we have ceded our liberty to government control instead of utilizing personal responsibility, outgoing concern and common-sense in our actions as citizens.

This is why I say we only have ourselves to blame for the horror and judgement we are about to endure, and why we are already enslaved to tyranny.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), October 07, 1999.

Guess who? Quite the list of thoughtful posting here... with the exception of the miscreant who insists I'm a troll or DEF. By the definitions from yesterday's question concerning a troll, (before that thread did the downward spiral into mindless drivel), I don't THINK I am. I'm sincere in my question above and I think most of you know that; I don't particularly relish the downside to the crash, I expect many will die; but ultimately, it will be they that got themselves killed, not I. These pollies; it's a shame if they have children... obviously they don't regard parenting as the huge responsibility that it truly is. I'd guess they think parenting means handing over the car keys and credit cards so the little whippersnappers can go pick themselves up another trenchcoat or get their bellybuttons pierced, (but hey - I personally think body-piercing is a good thing; it lets you know who the true mutants are at just a glance). INVAR - you amaze me. You must type about a kajillion wpm. Is that your real em address? I tried to send you a message but it failed twice. On the "LURKERS" thread I mentioned my political cartoon strip, a few of them have dealt with y2k and I thought some of you would appreciate them. I used the founding fathers, sawed off in miniature, and they place themselves into today's politics, (now ther's a feat - I doubt they're doing anything less than spinning in their graves over what goes on today). At any rate... most of the leftists would hate them, seeing as on the political spectrum, I fall slightly to the right of Ghengis Kahn. Mara, the corporations ARE the politicians. Deano, it's a shame you haven't pondered the question of freedom enough to realize that you have so little. You seem like a nice enough sort, though, probably a victim of public education. Look forward to more posts.

-- Patrick (pmchenry@gradall.com), October 07, 1999.

Thanks Patrick.

Not my real addy. You can send me a note through Diane Squire by e- mailing the message to her, she will then forward it to me.

Sorry if it sounds cloak & dagger, but I wish to avoid crappola in the e-mail and other privacy invasions. Experienced a serious problem when I posted my real addy at one time. Plus if it ever came down to the gubmint tracking down and rounding-up all us "dissidents" (if you watched the Tony Brown's Journal about Race & Y2K you'd know what I mean), I don't wish to make it easy for them.

I shall remain and die a free man on my feet. I've about cow-towed all I'm going to.

Tell Diane I said thanks in advance if you do send me a note.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), October 07, 1999.

INVAR - (does that stand for "InViolable American Rights?") Sent an E to moderator in search of Diane, got 4 of my 'toons ready to go, so as soon as I hear back...

-- Patrick (pmchenry@gradall.com), October 07, 1999.

Since when has the demise of a corrupt system heralded an enlightened age? Same yahoos all over just less bread to eat.

-- R (riversoma@aol.com), October 07, 1999.

Cut it out INVAR. You're making me feel really domesticated.

-- a (a@a.a), October 07, 1999.

a--,

yes it's scary when you see all the infringements on our liberties all listed like that. It makes you ask yourself "Where the hell have I been when they did all this crap?".

I imagine lots of folks will be asking the same thing about Y2K this coming march.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), October 07, 1999.

INVAR

A serious thank you for taking the time to answer. Definitely lots of 'changes', some good and some bad. Remember there are always two sides to most everything. I wish I had the time today to go into more detail but my schedule won't permit it. There are a couple of the changes I'd like to point out that were made for the 'better' IMO.

Smoking - 1st off, I smoke a pack a day, but why should the guy next to me in a restaurant (or office or wherever)have to breath my smoke while he's eating. I don't have a problem with stepping outside, it's just common courtesy I think.

Burning yard debris - what if everyone wanted to burn it at the same time? Would make breathing a little difficult. Besides, yard trash can be turned into compost fairly easily and no harm to Mother Earth in the process. Another good change I think.

Building permits - you buy a house in a nice neighborhood. One where property values will soar. The guy next to you puts up a tin shack in his yard for storage. In a year it's a rusted piece of junk and you can't sell your house for what it's worth because of the eyesore next door. I've seen that one happen myself. Another good change I think.

Along those same lines - you buy a house from someone who rewired it on his own - no permits or inspections. He cuts corners, uses cheap materials and hides it all with drywall. You move in, there's a short in his shoddy wiring and your house burns down. Proper permits and inspections would prevent this from happening. I like this change too.

And some for the worse.......

You mentioned others that piss me off as much as you - corporal punishment in school - I remember getting my ass whooped in front of the whole class a few times - most definitely a humbling character builder. Not a good change at all.

Prayer in school is another - Catholic upbringing and education. We said The Lords Prayer to start every day and a Hail Mary to start every class. I wish kids today were allowed to do the same. That one never made sense to me.

Disciplining your own children - This one they really screwed up. It's pretty damn obvious that the kids have very little respect for anything - not even themselves. I still whoop mine when they need it which thankfully is not very often. Although the 14 going on 25 year old daughter can really test my patience at times.

The EEOC and Affirmative Action definitely SUCK.

True, we've lost some liberties, some for the better and some for the worse. What do they say? - you can't please all the people all the time?? I think that holds true here for sure.....

Time to go.

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), October 08, 1999.

Forgot one that really burns me up.

When I see the American Flag on fire.......hell, I can't even find the words to descibe how awful it makes me feel. WAY too many good people died for that Flag. How could an American burn it?? Why would any American allow it to happen?? And how the hell did we decide THAT was OK??

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), October 08, 1999.

Prayer in school is another - Catholic upbringing and education. We said The Lords Prayer to start every day and a Hail Mary to start every class. I wish kids today were allowed to do the same.

They are. It's called catholic school. If you want your kids to have a catholic education, send them there. I don't want my kids to be saying the Lords anything in school. Who the hell are you to be telling me how my kids should practice religion in a public school?

Forgot one that really burns me up.

Me too.

When I see the American Flag on fire.......hell, I can't even find the words to descibe how awful it makes me feel.

It's a piece of freaking cloth, you sissy.

WAY too many good people died for that Flag.

Nobody died for the flag, idiot. They died for freedom, liberty, and democracy, something you seem to want to take away from people. The flag is a piece of cloth.

How could an American burn it??

Because this is a free country, and the flag is a piece of cloth. God (or whoever) bless America.

Why would any American allow it to happen??

Because it's part of what freedom is all about. If you don't like freedom, move to Russia or Iraq. I'm sure they have nice severe penalties for people who burn their flag.

And how the hell did we decide THAT was OK??

Probably because there are still some of us left who know what real freedom is all about.

-- (live@free.or.die), October 08, 1999.

Livefree

You fit, perfectly, my definition of a real stinking piece of shit.

Please go fuck yourself immediately.

Good God, what a LOSER!!!

You suck buddy..........you suck bad!

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), October 08, 1999.

Did anyone notice that that piece of shit up there attacked me and not INVAR? We were in agreement on many points up there but you chose to attack the Polly.

Fascinating.....

You're actually a rotten piece of shit. An extremely rotten piece of shit.

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), October 08, 1999.

Awesome list, INVAR: fan of James Bovard's? And just what does INVAR mean? Always wondered. I would add one 'freedom,' if you will: what used to be considered an inalienable right, granted by the Creator: the right to life. The freedom to be born. That one got washed away by selfishness (oh, I'm sorry, by Benthamite utilitarianism) a while ago, and now we're not even free to exercise our conscience and protest the damn thing without our devoted Federal masters bringing RICO down on our heads. And to Mr. Live Free: my kids go to Catholic school, and say the Hail Mary every morning. Unfortunately, I have to pay $8,000 dollars a year school tax to the government schools so the kiddies can be taught tolerance and anal dam usage. I am not free to refuse to pay into their system. Who the hell are YOU to tell me to fork over my money to support a system that disgusts me? The knife cuts both ways, and State Power is on YOUR side, not mine.

-- Spidey (in@jam.stupor), October 08, 1999.

Hello,

Reading the above......sad how many here actually hope for the worst. I can understand how people would wish things were different, better. But wishing for civil collapse, WISHING for ruin and destruction is quite sad to me. Think Y2K is just the latest "hope" of these folks. Yesteryear it was nuclear war, natural disasters or economic collapse. Next decade....the same, plus whatever else the media comes up with that you can latch onto in "hope" for doom.

I find it interesting those with a christian perspective don't study their bibles better. For those "christians" here, do you think Jesus shares your hope for doom? Ever heard of agape love? Ever studied that the world is not your home, heaven is? To not fret over the wicked...but to strive as you can to improve towards the goal and grow in your faith.

For centuries, "doom" has been "deserved" and not come. Indeed, "it will come on a day when you think not", remember? Lots of people think "it" will come on 1-1-2000. Interesting. I think God's knowledge of the future is better than any doomers "hope" for Y2K.

Basically, no matter the specifics of current society and life on this planet, people have been "woe are we"ing ad nauseum. Not that there are not problems, there are. How about fanning one's "light" and letting it shine, and putting one's talents to use instead of "hoping"...with glee I might add...for death and destruction...and worry of "what we shall eat...what we shall wear"...remember who said what about this? Try the "red letter" secion of Mathew. But not you....remeber that COMMAND....also in the same "red letter" section.

And also, remember what He said about being judged by the same standard as you yourself use? Remember the concepts of mercy and grace? I think it best not to "hope" others get "what they deserve"...because you sure wouldn't want the same...no...you would want His mercy and grace instead. Think carefully here....very! Remeber, as you "compare" your "jot and title" sins against "their" "major" sins....remeber, both, if they "get what they deserve"...wind up in the same place.......think again of mercy and grace....best to have some...try giving some in your mind...don't you know God is not mocked? Think He needs your help to "keep score" and settle accounts. Remeber...it's not your account to settle...among other things. Be carefull here.....it's serious stuff you're triffling with..for YOU!!

Again, I do understand. But think it is a mistake to focus on the outward evil that always has and still does exist on our planet. What's the point, once you know and understand it. Why not, as the Bible says, focus and WORK on the "fruits"...and that wich is of good report, and agape love...and grow and mature in your faith instead of hiding under some bushell, with your "flame" cupped, shivering in fear and woe.....How about "being as wise as a serpent but as innocent as a dove"....and having love in your heart, instead of condemnation....for, you are not the judge, HE IS! And He does NOT share HIS bench!!

Try thinking about these things, instead of just reacting and flaming. And ask yourself this: Haven't you really felt this way a long time before you "got" Y2K? What does that tell you? Hopefully something that will lead to growth; lest you be "woe are we"ing over every worry that comes down the pike as you "hope" for the "just due" of others. Remember whose job it is to judge? Remember what we have been commanded? Read and study carefully...your bible. And decide whether, to your eternal profit or loss...whether you will live as YOU ought...or as YOU decide and prefer...indulging your doomer whims.

-- Genius (codeslinger@work.now), October 08, 1999.

Genius,

"Reading the above......sad how many here actually hope for the worst. I can understand how people would wish things were different, better. But wishing for civil collapse, WISHING for ruin and destruction is quite sad to me."

That all depends on how you look at it Genius, some people are afraid to destroy something that is hopelessly flawed, they'd rather just keep trying to patch it up. It is that kind of fear that keeps us from progressing. Others view the destruction of evil as a good thing, a chance to start anew.

-- @ (@@@.@), October 08, 1999.

Got some thoughts.

Deano,

>>>"Smoking - 1st off, I smoke a pack a day, but why should the guy next to me in a restaurant (or office or wherever)have to breath my smoke while he's eating. I don't have a problem with stepping outside, it's just common courtesy I think."<<<

Excercizing common courtesy is a trait lost on this generation by-in- large, which is why we have the people SCREAMING for legislation and ordinance. It is better to have common-courtesy when smoking(or many other legislated activities) than to have your rights restricted by law. It is nothing more than an intrusion of the government on your liberty to smoke if you choose. As a businessman, I don't want the government telling a PRIVATE business what they can allow within their doors. It makes business sense for a business to decide ON ITS OWN to have non-smoking sections to cater to those whom don't smoke, or having a club that is for smokers. Restricting such clubs from existing is an infringement on our liberty. Cigarrettes are a legal item. If they are as harmful as they claim, and kill....why doesn't the government just BAN them? But it isn't about doing what is right. It is ALL about power, and controlling public behaviour.

>>>" Burning yard debris - what if everyone wanted to burn it at the same time? Would make breathing a little difficult. Besides, yard trash can be turned into compost fairly easily and no harm to Mother Earth in the process. Another good change I think. "<<<

This is another common-courtesy and wisdom example. But the main liberty that needs preserving, is the liberty to do as you wish ON YOUR PROPERTY. I'm not talking about community standards, which should exist in principle and practice AND NOT LAW. BTW, the main point I'm addressing is the freedom folks ONCE had to burn leaves or make improvements on property, that was suddenly rescinded by ordinance.

>>>" Building permits - you buy a house in a nice neighborhood. One where property values will soar. The guy next to you puts up a tin shack in his yard for storage. In a year it's a rusted piece of junk and you can't sell your house for what it's worth because of the eyesore next door. I've seen that one happen myself. Another good change I think."<<<

Common courtesy again. I hear this argument all the time, and it confirms the point that today, folks are more concerned about wealth and money and GETTING the maximum return, than care if liberty and freedom are restricted in the process. Tyranny always starts slow and builds from an innocuous foundation. Once started, it never stops. And that's where we are today...about to lose it all because everyone is COMFORTABLE with the illusion that law and ordinance are protecting their wealth and sensibility.

>>>" Along those same lines - you buy a house from someone who rewired it on his own - no permits or inspections. He cuts corners, uses cheap materials and hides it all with drywall. You move in, there's a short in his shoddy wiring and your house burns down. Proper permits and inspections would prevent this from happening. I like this change too.<<<"

This is an issue of WISDOM. Folks have blind faith that codes and requirements are protecting them. What ever happened to a renter or buyer INSPECTING the dwelling themselves BEFORE moving in? You do it when buying a new car. How about receiving a certification from a private enterprise that does the inspections to home improvements? It would be a star in your cap when trying to rent or sell. As a renter or buyer, I'd want to see that certification rating before I buy. And all this can be done without government intrusion. This does not exclude genuine lawsuits for negligence, which would also be an INCENTIVE to obtain a certification.

You have to understand Deano, that laws and legislation we have today scream out that the government doesn't trust the people to determine their own destiny. They don't trust us to; raise our own kids up right, spend a tax refund or rebate, have common-courtesy when indulging in activities that may irritate others, educate our own kids, make improvements to our homes and property, possess firearms, hire with fairness and provide for our own future and retirement. The Government is controlling all of this because THEY DON'T TRUST THE AMERICAN PEOPLE TO DETERMINE THEIR OWN AFFAIRS. And it all started when the people demanded the GOVERRNMENT step in and meddle in affairs that should have been settled privately or in court. You want to trace our current state-of-affairs, and the annihilation of liberty we are facing? Look no further than yourself and your neighbors. For over three generations we have been content on our abundance to relinquish our liberties one by one for peace-of-mind and our own selfishness. We have adbicated our duty to guard our freedoms vigilantly and relinquished them to a government all-to-eager to take complete control.

Genius,

You do not understand scripture as much as you pretend to. You're playing Bible-bingo.

We are not to abide sin by ignoring it and crying aloud "Do not judge lest ye be judged!" Agape love also does not tolerate the sins that bring hurt and suffering His people. We are to be watchful, and to discern evil, overcoming ourselves, this world and the Devil. Shining light a light includes turning others from sin, because repentance is a requirement for salvation. We are to examine ourselves, and see the rot and decay within, and this includes the nation as well. God instructed us to judge, and to choose life. We are to eschew evil. You cannot do that by not judging. God tells us to "Cry aloud, spare not...." and proclaim the sins of our people.

No one I know, not one Doomer is looking forward to what we are facing with Y2K, so cram your "indulging in your doomer whims". I guess by your statement that Jesus was indulging in doomerism when he wept over Jerusalem at their coming calamity in 70 AD. I suppose he was indulging in doomerism when he told the woman to weep for themselves and children, because the day was coming when they would cry that those who had no children were blessed. I suppose he was a sick doomer when He said it would be more tolerable for Sidon and Tyre in the Judgement because Jerusalem was rejecting Him. His doomer fantasy continued when He did the same when describing the "end of the Age" to the disciples according to your interpretation of scripture.

What is being said by some, and I agree...is that if destruction and calamity must come, then perhaps that will be the fire that cleanses the evil permeating our government and society. That is not engaging in spiritual judgementalism, but righteous anger. For the saints will cry aloud from under the alter of God, "How long until you avenge our blood?".

You're into the Health, Wealth gospel. Read how God dealt with Ancient Israel, and realize that it was Jesus Himself that dealt with them (John 1:1-3). Does God not expect us to judge, and warn against sin, and expect Judgement from Him on the sins of our people? Building fruits of the Spirit in your life and ingnoring the decay around you is no better than openly abiding and tolerating sin.

We are to be aware of the devils devices, and to stand strong against them. And when it is beyond our ability to change the course of evil, then we must turn to God to pronounce Judgement, and eradicate the evil, so that we may live peaceably. Why else would God state that when we see these things happen, we are to lift up our heads, because our Redemption draws nigh? Yes, we should all look forward to the destruction of evil. Better for the nation to repent and change, but as it will not...then it will have reaped what it sowed, and for that I rejoice that Good will again triumph over evil. Unfortunately, we all will suffer in the process...but this existance is merely temporary and not worthy to compare our destiny.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), October 08, 1999.

INVAR

I agree we have no one to blame but ourselves. We had the liberties, we abused some, and we lost them. Common courtesy and common sense (probably) would have prevented most of it from happening. I think, as a whole, the American people have proven we can't be trusted to handle our own affairs. Million dollar lawsuits will cause a lot of people/businesses to change the rules. Damn cryin' shame it is.

Again, thanks for the civil conversation.

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), October 08, 1999.

INVAR,

For the record, I'm not into Health and Wealth teachings. Despise same. Also, I'm not going to spend time arguing with you. Not because I can't, but because there are too many other things for both of us to do. I will say this. I strongly suspect most of what appears to you to be difference of opinion is based on the connotation you have of my words. I have read many post here that clearly state some WANT society to go down the tubes. They HOPE things are bad..and clearly say so in their post. This is what I was refering to. Also, weeping or sorrow over bad events or bad situations, conditions of society, ect is quite different from hoping for doom and destruction with glee, as some here do...and have said so plainly. Jesus was no doomer. To confuse the two, doomer hope of bad events, and sorrow over bad events are quite different! Also, "the wise man sees trouble and hides himself...and the fool rushes ahead and pays the penalty"....does not negate my points...if read for what they are, not missread so as to make them easy to dismiss.

Basically, much in the spiritual walk is an ever upward growing and maturing in wisdom and balance. Best wishes, and this is all I'll comment on the matter. Too much to do! Again, best wishes....and the answer of who interprets best.....is something I'll leave for HIM to decide....I'm not going to spend time clarifying or debating. If what I said is helpful to "him with an ear", great! If not, oh well...that's the way it goes....not my place to give the increase!

-- Genius (codeslinger@work.now), October 08, 1999.

Livefree

You fit, perfectly, my definition of a real stinking piece of shit.

Please go fuck yourself immediately.

Good God, what a LOSER!!!

You suck buddy..........you suck bad!

Deano

Not a single reference to anything I said, just a long string of mindless insults. You're getting worse than the doomers.

Did anyone notice that that piece of shit up there attacked me and not INVAR? We were in agreement on many points up there but you chose to attack the Polly.

You stated it more explicitly than he did, but if it makes you feel better, you both seem very willing to take freedoms away from people like me. So fuck you too, you vile scumsucking freedom-raping bastard.

You're actually a rotten piece of shit. An extremely rotten piece of shit.

All because I love freedom and won't let you take away mine. Deal with it, scumbag.

-- (live@free.or.die), October 08, 1999.

Who lost their liberties? If you don't know your rights, it's the same as not having any. The constitution IS the SUPREME law of the land, both before and after, (moreso after), y2k. Any law repugnant to the constitution is NULL & VOID and no American is obliged to obey... Thomas Jefferson

-- Patrick (pmchenry@gradall.com), October 08, 1999.

And to Mr. Live Free: my kids go to Catholic school, and say the Hail Mary every morning. Unfortunately, I have to pay $8,000 dollars a year school tax to the government schools so the kiddies can be taught tolerance and anal dam usage. I am not free to refuse to pay into their system. Who the hell are YOU to tell me to fork over my money to support a system that disgusts me?

I never told you to fork over your money. If you want to change the system to be more fair so you don't have to pay, go right ahead, but forcing my children to take on your religious beliefs is not the answer. By the same token, tbough, I don't use the library, so I shouldn't have to maintain that. Maybe I use the highways less than you, so I want to pay less than you do. City parks?? Forget it, I have a back yard. Don't want to pay for 'em.

The system would be more fair, but it sure as hell would be more difficult to maintain. But hey, if you have a solution, I'm sure it would be welcomed here.

-- (live@free.or.die), October 08, 1999.

Why don't we abolish the public fool system & you can both take responsibility for your own kids education, they're nothing but socialist indoctrination centers anyway. Your argument is over this very principle... you don't recognize this fact because the public fool system failed to arm you with proper knowledge.

-- Patrick (pmchenry@gradall.com), October 08, 1999.

Amen Patrick, you're on the ball.

Gives me hope we might retain our birthright freedoms, we just need another 229 million that espouse the same common-sense and desire to act on it...even to the point of death, as Patrick Henry so eloquently put it.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), October 08, 1999.

INVAR-I was wondering if you got the strips I sent to Diane or if the E got through. Let me know if I need to send it again. My sys admin has been giving fail messages on every E, but the post shows up. I hate computers. They're as stupid as people.

-- Patrick (pmchenry@gradall.com), October 08, 1999.

Wasn't going to respond....but hey Live,

I'm curious. Where'd you get the stupid notion that I'm advocating taking freedom away from people like you? What in anything I've posted above would make you think I'm for usurping freedom like the Leftists do?

You can do what you wish as long as it doesn't violate myself or family. You are free to dance naked with the dogs while smoking peyote and worshipping Jack Daniels for all I care. Just don't expect me to teach my kids that your lifestyle is O.K., and to accept it as normal.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), October 08, 1999.

No Patrick, nothing from Diane yet 10:20pm CDT.

Do you have A.O.L. Instant Messenger?

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), October 08, 1999.

No, but if I can find out what that is, I'll go get one. Seriously, I think it's an internal thing.

-- Patrick (pmchenry@gradall.com), October 08, 1999.

I'm curious. Where'd you get the stupid notion that I'm advocating taking freedom away from people like you? What in anything I've posted above would make you think I'm for usurping freedom like the Leftists do?

My apologies. I misinterpreted what you wrote, and since Deano lumped his mindless BS about kids saying the Lords prayer and his whining about flag burners in with your comments, I made the incorrect assumption that you agreed. I should have known better. I'll read more carefully next time.

You can do what you wish as long as it doesn't violate myself or family. You are free to dance naked with the dogs while smoking peyote and worshipping Jack Daniels for all I care.

Holy crap, how did you know how I practice my secret religion?

Just don't expect me to teach my kids that your lifestyle is O.K., and to accept it as normal.

Hey, just try it. The peyote really makes the difference.

-- (live@free.or.die), October 09, 1999.

Live Free

What I meant to say was that you're obviously one of the losers that caused many of those liberties to be lost (or won in your sad eyes).

My kids can't take a moment to say a prayer in school because of idiots like you. You whined and they changed it.

I'd be willing to bet a few of the posters on this forum think the American flag is a lot more than a just piece of cloth. It would be entertaining as hell to watch you choke on it.

What a shame so many Americans died for you. You're worthless.....

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), October 11, 1999.

What I meant to say was that you're obviously one of the losers that caused many of those liberties to be lost (or won in your sad eyes).

What a crock. You're the one who's so busy trying to rape the constitution and the Bill of Rights, while I'm trying to uphold it. But you're much more interested in the flag than some stupid constitution, right????

My kids can't take a moment to say a prayer in school because of idiots like you. You whined and they changed it.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA. Of course they can take a moment, you moron. They can pray silently pretty much any time they want. Before class, in the bathroom, at lunch, whenever. They just can't force my kids to take a moment to pray to some diety they don't believe in. What's wrong, you have a problem with my kids not acquiescing to your stupid religion? Go cry in your milk, you insignificant whiner.

I'd be willing to bet a few of the posters on this forum think the American flag is a lot more than a just piece of cloth.

I'd be willing to bet that I don't give a shit what a few posters on this forum think. Of course, that's probably more important to you, since you appear to follow the mob mentality.

It would be entertaining as hell to watch you choke on it.

Yeah, that's what you really want, isn't it? Violence against me for expressing my freedoms. You hate freedom with a passion, don't you? So much that you wish such great harm to those who express the freedom given to them by this great country. If you hate this country so much, maybe you should leave to where they prosecute flag burners and people who speak out against their government. You'd be much more comfortable in a dictatorship.

What a shame so many Americans died for you. You're worthless.....

At least I'm not a freedom-raping scumbag like you. You despise freedom and want to destroy it utterly. You're worthless.

-- (live@free.or.die), October 12, 1999.

Live Free

You were obviously a mistake. A huge mistake. No go away and grow up.

Dear God - were you thinking the same thing when you created maggots and misquitoes as you did when you created Mr LiveFree, AKA LOSER?

Amen.

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), October 12, 1999.

Live Free You were obviously a mistake. A huge mistake. No go away and grow up.

Dear God - were you thinking the same thing when you created maggots and misquitoes as you did when you created Mr LiveFree, AKA LOSER?

Amen.

And once again, Deano strings together some mindless insults and makes no references to anything I actually said. Still, it's interesting to see you using your god as a way to insult and judge your fellow man. I'm sure your god is real impressed with that.

-- (live@free.or.die), October 12, 1999.

I'll speak to something you blathered......

Watch you choke on the flag??? Are you kidding me??? I'd pay 5 grand to be the one that shoves it down your throat.

You ain't even close to an American boy.........not even close.

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), October 12, 1999.

I have witnessed this Deano scrap before.... he and another on this forum cannot resist each other.

-- deja vu (all@over.again), October 12, 1999.

deja vu

Actually Ol' Deano is a pretty laid back guy. Damn nice to be around too!

this livefree character is about as low as they come though. He doesn't realize he's a big part of the problem and not anywhere near the solution.

You're probably thinking of andy or ray or a or hardliner - we've all rubbed each other the wrong way more than once.

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), October 12, 1999.

I'll speak to something you blathered......

Watch you choke on the flag??? Are you kidding me??? I'd pay 5 grand to be the one that shoves it down your throat.

First of all, you were the one who blathered about my choking on the flag, not me. Are you so incredibly stupid that you can't even remember what you wrote? Guess those Lord's prayers and Hail Mary's didn't help you much when it came time for reading class.

And secondly, you've already expressed your strong desire to exact violence on those who wish to express the freedoms given to them by the constitution that you hate so very much. Now you're just being redundant. It's clear that you despise this country and the foundations of freedom upon which it was built and you want nothing more than to see these foundations destroyed.

You ain't even close to an American boy.........not even close.

If by "American boy" you are referring to your vile totalitarian freedom-raping dogma, then I agree. However, my definition of "American boy" is clearly different than yours.

-- (live@free.or.die), October 12, 1999.

Does anyone have any bug spray??? This is about the most annoying little fly I have ever come across.......

Don't you have a turd somewhere that needs sniffing??

You ain't even close to an American, boy. Not even close.

Clear it up for you a little??

You probably think Koresh is a hero of some sort. Nuff said........

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), October 12, 1999.

Does anyone have any bug spray??? This is about the most annoying little fly I have ever come across.......

Don't you have a turd somewhere that needs sniffing??

You ain't even close to an American, boy. Not even close.

Clear it up for you a little??

Oh yes it does. Once again, for the third time, Deano strings together mindless insults without referring to anything I actually said. Now, he's even repeating himself with his "American boy" comment. His mind is so filled with hatred and violence that he can't even form the tiniest coherent argument. Poor little freedom-rapist.

-- (live@free.or.die), October 12, 1999.

Geez.....

Some people.

I don't despise my country or the constitution. That's the most ludicrous statement I've ever heard. You're an idiot for even thinking it. (actually, you're an idiot anyway, but that's another story)

What I do despise/hate/loathe/would love to teach a lesson in manners to/ is YOU. People like you cause more problems than you're worth.

You THINK you know what the constitution says but you've only interpreted it for your own likes. (It looks like you've enterpreted it to read 'you can do anything you want whenever you want to - no matter what - right??) Do you really think Jefferson, Adams and Franklin would stand around while you burned an American flag?? I doubt it very seriously......

Please try it on Main Street one time just for me. Don't forget to bring a camera..........

Again, just for grins - You ain't even close to an American, (comma) boy. Not even close.

Get it now (he said hopefully)??

Oh yeah - I asked God if it was OK to shove the American Flag down your throat and He said "Go for it Deano, I hope he chokes on it too".

So there ya have it.

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), October 12, 1999.

I don't despise my country or the constitution.

You hold a piece of cloth in higher regard than the laws of the country as defined by the constitution and bill of rights. You have already demonstrated this several times. Your hatred of those who wish to uphold these laws is obvious.

What I do despise/hate/loathe/would love to teach a lesson in manners to/ is YOU. People like you cause more problems than you're worth.

So attempting to preserve freedom as defined by the laws of the constitution and bill of rights is now "causing problems."

You THINK you know what the constitution says but you've only interpreted it for your own likes. (It looks like you've enterpreted it to read 'you can do anything you want whenever you want to - no matter what - right??)

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, you're so full of it, you pathetic moron. The only interpretation I've made is that I'm allowed to protest the government by legal means and I'm allowed to practice my religion without fear of people like you trying to force your religion upon me and my children. You however, seemed to interpret it to mean that you have the right to rip away any freedoms you see fit if they don't fit your demented personal moral code.

Do you really think Jefferson, Adams and Franklin would stand around while you burned an American flag?? I doubt it very seriously......

How the hell would you know what they would do? Do you have a habit of attempting to read the minds of dead people?

Please try it on Main Street one time just for me. Don't forget to bring a camera..........

Again, you only prove that if something is offensive, then it should be outlawed. I find you offensive. Perhaps you should be outlawed.

Again, just for grins - You ain't even close to an American, (comma) boy. Not even close.

And again, your definition of "American" appears to be one who follows a well-defined regimen of restricting freedoms and forcing ones religious beliefs on others. So again, you're right.

Get it now (he said hopefully)??

I always have.

Oh yeah - I asked God if it was OK to shove the American Flag down your throat and He said "Go for it Deano, I hope he chokes on it too".

So there ya have it.

Yup, using your god again as a weapon to insult and judge others. Yeah, I'm sure he loves that. No hypocrisy there. BWAHAHAHAHAHA.

-- (live@free.or.die), October 12, 1999.

Yawn......

Are you through yet?

Yawn (again!) Damn you are boring........very, very boring......

I'm through with you now..........you can go.

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), October 12, 1999.

Ah, sorry folks, but, while I have a major PERSONAL problem with the flag burning issue, I have a BIGGER problem with the prohibition of such.

I have to point out that, unlike a couple court justices, I believe the first ammendment means that political speach can not be stifled. Where the justices got the notion that certain other types of "publications" were "protectected speach" is beyond me. From reading the relevant documentation "do your own thing" and "say ANYTHING you want" or "Publish anything you want" were NOT part of the package they intended.

THey WERE very concerned that when someone got up on the apple crate in the square and pointed out that the Emperor, President, King was behaving as an imbecile or a fool, and that maybe the situation should be changed, that person had the right to make those statements and not expect to "disappear". If someone today wants to stand up and rant about the system being bad/wrong/corupt they are humored for a while and then quietly ushered elsewhere, unless they choose to make their point with graphic clarity. Burning the flag is a protest against the extant system, and is graphically CLEAR. EVERYONE gets the point. Elsewise, why would it be such a hot button?? EVERYONE has a visceral response. MINE is of anger, like many of my friends who are vets.

However, I have a few more enlightened vet friends who point out that the system which they are protesting is such a vital, vibrant, self healing system that it CAN ALLOW this type of protest and survive stronger.

Just my fiat $.02

Chuck

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), October 12, 1999.

Are you through yet?

Looks like you are. In more ways than one. And, for those keeping track, this is the fourth post in which Deano spouts nonsensical insults without ever referring to anything I actually wrote. I'm sure this is much easier for him than actually having to read anything.

Yawn (again!) Damn you are boring........very, very boring......

BWAHAHAHAHAHA. So boring that you apparently had to lob several nasty insults at me in every one of your posts. You're not only a pathetic moron, but a liar as well.

I'm through with you now..........you can go.

As Deano runs away like the pathetic little crybaby he is. Yeah, you're through alright. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

-- (live@free.or.die), October 12, 1999.

Chuck

Thanks for the input.

Saying the president is an idiot is one thing. Burning our National Symbol is another IMO (I wonder if he hunts eagles too??). Regardless of what numbnuts said up there, thousands of Americans died for that flag. Burning it is just as bad as pissing on their grave.

LiveFree ain't nothin' but a loser......it's as plain as the ass on his shoulders........

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), October 12, 1999.

Saying the president is an idiot is one thing. Burning our National Symbol is another IMO (I wonder if he hunts eagles too??).

You idiot, the eagle is a living thing, the flag is not. Perhaps I shouldn't be surprised that you can't tell the difference.

Regardless of what numbnuts said up there, thousands of Americans died for that flag.

Gee, I thought they died for freedom and democracy and the good of all mankind. Nope, all they fought for was a piece of cloth. So, war is pretty much just "capture the flag" with guns and death.

LiveFree ain't nothin' but a loser......it's as plain as the ass on his shoulders........

Gee, I thought you were done with me. You've just proven yourself a pathetic liar once again.

-- (live@free.or.die), October 12, 1999.

off off off

-- (off@off.off), October 12, 1999.

hey live free

Have you ever served in the Armed forces?

...Just Curious...

-- Billy Boy (Rakkasn@yahoo.com), October 12, 1999.

Have you ever served in the Armed forces?

Nope, haven't had the pleasure. Just quite a few friends and relatives who were and shared plenty of stories!

-- (live@free.or.die), October 12, 1999.

I just wanted all of you to know I printed this thread and will read it at length later, but I have to tell INVAR... RIGHT ON!

growlin'...

The Dog

-- Dog (Desert Dog@-sand.com), October 12, 1999.

livefree: you are dealing with primates who are addicted to their symbol set. Just as any dogmatic becomes more enamored of his precious symbols than he does what they represent, these people love their flag more than what it means.

This is a fear response.

Understand that you are an early evolution. Your brain is advanced. You can see beyond the veil. That is all. No matter what words someone hands you, you will always see the truth in your reality.

You will probably one day be killed by the un-evolved primates(symbol lovers and symbol servants). This is one of the problems with being an early evolution - is that the idiots stone you to death when they find you out. People are terrified of the more evolved.

If you ever wonder how this world got in this shape (with everyone a slave, yet not knowing they are slaves).. then you need look no farther than your own state of being one of the early-evolved. Someone evolved even earlier than you, in a much earlier time. That person saw that the other people could be restrained and controlled if their heads were filled with conflicting ideas.

That person discovered he didn't have to work, if he just used symbol and word against the people. This is very well illustrated in the story Tom Sawyer, with the whitewashing of the fence. Twain was a rebel, just like our founding fathers were.

The best I can suggest to you, livefree, is that you watch your lessers very closely, learn what motivates them, and plan ahead.

Fighting it, so far, has been useless.

the only method really found to effect a member of they slaverace is to force them to ask themselves questions. That's why they killed socrates..because his way of de-hypnotizing works.

Take care, and be careful who you try to educate.

-- Thomas Jefferson - Rebel - Patriot (quietemptyspace@yahoo.com), November 16, 2004.