Warning: Extreme debunking. Faint of heart and those easily angered should not view (Lane, take your medicine before you go there). Re: Why do this if everthings OK?

Regards,

-- FactFinder (FactFinder@bzn.com), October 06, 1999

Answers

Then why not just let the chemical plants merrily roll into 2000, and take care of the little glitches as they pop up? Especially since it can be done over the course of a weekend?

SHUTTING THEM DOWN -- wow, thats EXTREME. Like storing food. Or buying a generator. Or buying extra clothes.

Yet nobody at the bonkers forum saw any problem with the shutdowns. Nobody said it was an overreaction. Or even extreme. It was considered to be ... "prudent".

Things that make you go Hmmmmm.

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), October 06, 1999.

The author is misinformed. He misses the point. He doesn't answer the question. And... he's an asshole.

Come on factfinder. You can do better than that.

-- a (a@a.a), October 06, 1999.

Further explanation on the link I posted above. Its a flame, and a good one at that. Sure the points are arguable, it's not the final word, just a flame. A number of points are well made, in a most flamboyant manner. Sure the standard poly phase computers fail all the time is invoked (we have to say this cause its true), but notice the excellent use of color and outstanding fontsmanship in the html! The attack is not personal, rather an entire group is demeaned and belittled  very considerate, dont you think? And a trace of that dry British style humor is detectable, I like that. This is what a real flame should be like! I can appreciate good flames, regardless of the poster or the position. I get flamed on occasion, but never this quality, sigh..

Usually I get flames like:

EAT SH__ AND DIE, POLY!

WE DONT NEED YOUR POLY CRAP HERE FARTFINDER!

YOU WONT BE LAUGHING WHEN YOUR FAMILY DIES IN A GIANT CHEMICAL PLANT EXPLOSION WHILE TRYING TO CRANK UP YOUR CAR WHICH WONT START CAUSE ITS NOT COMPLIANT YOU A__HOLE LOOSER I MEAN LOOOOOOOOSEEEEEEEEERRRRRR

While points are indeed made in such flames, and they humorous if read in the right frame of mind, they are not very polite and there is the potential for momma to come in and slap the poster silly for posting such stuff. Also, the poster comes off looking like a 15 year old. Most importantly  and I write this with heartfelt concern for all of humanity - while the poster has demonstrated that the Caps Lock button is functional, the reading is a bit tough on all of us.

MPR has set a high standard for honorable flaming that all of us doomers and polys (and even those middle of the road scumbags who dont want to be wrong) should aspire to.

Regards,

-- FactFinder (FactFinder@bzn.com), October 06, 1999.

That was the very first time I ever visited the "Debunking" site. I was ROTFLMAO, and I saw so many familiar names there. Now I know why they come here and post their drivel, it's because they are tired of having keyboard sex with each other.

-- Debunked Virgin (Debunk Virgin@DebunkVirginn.xcom), October 06, 1999.

Debunked Virginian (surely was typo, have corrected), now THAT was a decent flame! Regards,

-- FactFinder (FactFinder@bzn.com), October 06, 1999.

Let me put forth this hypothetical question: Suppose the decision to close the chemical plants for the Y2K rollover were not yet final, and open to public comment. Now, how many people believe that the bonkers crowd would be saying, "Keep the plants open! Y2K is no big deal!!" versus saying "Oh, by all means, close them. Its the PRUDENT thing to do!!"?

The ONLY reason these pathetic morons are calling it "prudent" is because they know that its a done deal, and they are not about to put themselves out to actually criticize anything that is done by the powers that be.

What a bunch of disgusting LOSERS. Take a hint, FactFinder.

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), October 06, 1999.

I'm sure the 3,000 dead folks at Bhopal trusted the "professional opinions of engineers and designers" and their "hundreds of safety procedures".

Murphy is alive, and will be doing very well in 2000.

Tick... Tock... <:00=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), October 06, 1999.

KOS said:

"Let me put forth this hypothetical question: Suppose the decision to close the chemical plants for the Y2K rollover were not yet final, and open to public comment."

Hypothetically of course, do you suppose the part of the chemical plant shutdowns that is not finalized deals with the phased restarts beginning on Jan 1, 2000.

It is more than hypothetical.

-- no talking please (breadlines@soupkitchen.gov), October 06, 1999.

Anyone who uses bold flashing text is advertising the fact that they are an idiot. I immediately hit the "back" button when I see that.

Before you give any credibility to the message, consider the source.

-- @ (@@@.@), October 07, 1999.

I'm a dumb-ass; humor me. Why does a temporary shut-down do the trick? When they turn it back on time has still run forward, and the computer will still see those two irksome zeros, yes? Is it a step-wise start-up that wins the day?

-- Spidey (in@jam.ER), October 07, 1999.

A temporary shutdown is preferable because it is a controlled shut down. Much less likely to damage equipment or cause environmental damage. Also, if multiple failures occur, human overreaction could cause even more trouble. When you choose to bring the plant back up, you are dealing with very identifiable failures, because you'll bring it up in phases. I say it makes sense.

-- margie mason (mar3mike@aol.com), October 07, 1999.

Spidey...

The cover story for the temporary shut down is:

'We're down for maintenance'.

With a phased restart on Jan 1, at least the accidents will happen in a more controlled way, I suppose.

Or maybe the plan anticipates, that by only having small load sheds, in the event of sudden plant shutdowns (accidents), they will be able to maintain a more stable electrical grid.

In other words, less voltage fluctuations to deal with.

Like it or not this is the plan.

-- no talking please (breadlines@soupkitchen.gov), October 07, 1999.

That was, indeed, a high quality flame. I wish we could ALL see more like it.

I fervently hope that the author is *entirely* correct, that the error rate is low enough that the "front line" folks can handle it without undue hardship on anyone's part.

I would love to take the razzing certain family members are hoping to give me next year.

However, even the lowly PC techs who do my company's work are worried. Too many small and medium companies doing too little. They don't know how they will handle the workload next year.

Best of luck to all of those on the front lines. You have my thanks and appreciation. Try to get some sleep between now and 2000/01/01, will you?

-- mushroom (mushroom_bs_too_long@yahoo.com), October 07, 1999.

http://www.wichitaeagle.com/news/environment/docs/chemical1006_txt.htm

Link

Air Products to shut down for Y2K

Come New Year's Eve, other chemical plants will have extra people on hand in case the unexpected arises.

By Jean Hays The Wichita Eagle

Taking no chances, a local chemical company says it will shut down temporarily on New Year's Eve to avoid any computer foul-ups that could lead to chemical releases.

Air Products, which employs 82 people southwest of Wichita, plans to voluntarily shut down its chemical reactors as a precaution for Y2K, the fear that older computers might mistake the new year for 1900, causing unplanned shutdowns and malfunctions.

While no other local chemical manufacturers are going to that extreme, it won't be business as usual for them, either.

Two other chemical plants in Wichita and the oil refinery in El Dorado will continue to operate, but will have extra people on hand in case the unexpected arises.

Air Products, one of the nation's largest chemical producers, is shutting down all 17 of its U.S. chemical plants.

The main concern is the loss of power at midnight, said Lauri Pyle, Air Products' plant manager in Wichita. The plant safety systems are designed to automatically shut down the plant during a power outage to prevent chemical releases. The company worried that the safety systems could malfunction.

"In this case we said, 'Why take that chance?' No one runs over midnight," Pyle said.

A mishap at the plant would pose little risk to the public, he said. At most, a chemical release of acrylonitrile, which can damage the nervous system and burn lungs, would remain dangerous for 2.6 miles, not far enough to reach the nearest neighborhood. However, the company does not want to risk exposing its employees, he said.

The decision to shut down is somewhat unusual. Most chemical plants, including the three in Wichita, operate continuously, running 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.

Elf Atochem, a refrigerant plant at 6040 S. Ridge Road, plans to continue operations but will have additional people on call, said Laura Dean, the Y2K coordinator.

Vulcan Chemicals, which is next door at 6200 S. Ridge Road, plans to keep producing chlorine as usual New Year's Eve.

In addition to the 50 to 60 employees working on the night shift, the company will have a dozen engineers and technical and computer experts on hand, said Paul Tobia, the plant manager.

"Some of our employees will not be celebrating New Year's this year," he said.

The plant shut down for a week in September to run its Y2K checks and has been planning for the turn of the century since 1997, he said.

Public sensitivity over chemical releases has heightened since an accident in Bhopal, India, killed 3,000 people in 1984. A federal law, passed in reaction to Bhopal rather than fears about Y2K, requires companies to warn the public by January 2000 of the worst imaginable chemical accidents that could occur at their plants.

Both Elf Atochem and Vulcan Chemicals estimate that their worse case scenarios, which the companies stress are extremely unlikely, would produce a cloud of chemicals that would remain toxic up to 25 miles away.

In Butler County, the El Dorado Refining Co., which estimates the vulnerability zone around its plant is nine miles, will continue to operate. As a precaution, the company will cancel the shift change that normally occurs around 10:30 p.m. and will have two shifts of employees working, said Frank Wheeler, the refinery president.

The company will get a dress rehearsal of sorts for Y2K. Equilon Enterprises, the parent company, owns refineries worldwide. Managers at the company's headquarters in Houston are planning a satellite link to watch its plants in Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Australia and Europe as the calendar changes from 1999 to 2000.

"We'll see how all the different countries are coming through this before we get to midnight," Wheeler said.

-- Homer Beanfang (Bats@inbellfry.com), October 07, 1999.