I have a lot of questions about guns.

1. How much do they cost? 2. How hard is it to buy one? 3. What are the purposes of the different types of guns? For example, are rifles more intended for distance shooting?

Thanks.

-- Amy Leone (leoneamy@aol.com), October 05, 1999

Answers

Amy: Go here : www.deja.com and do a quick search on guns. Then click on rec.guns. Great forum for getting the answers you need.

-- Mitch (GettingReady@NEOhio.com), October 05, 1999.

Amy: There's several gun magazines that goes into detail about which gun is best for home defense, target practice etc. If you want home defense, a 12 gauge shotgun is best. You can spend anywhere from $100 to $500+ for a 12 gauge. We have a Mossberg 12 gauge shotgun for home defense. Start reading and get educated, time is running out. Think ammo and lots of it.

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), October 05, 1999.

I would suggest a .22 Caliber semi automatic Rifle.You can buy a box of 550 shells for less then ten bucks at Wally World.It's the cheapest way you can go.And still be able to reach out and touch someone.

-- Dan Newsome (BOONSTAR1@webnet.tv), October 05, 1999.

Short Answers to Complex Questions:

in Order:

1) Prices range from $75 for a cheapo Saturday-nite-Special pistol/rifle to the sky is the limit on price. I.E. you could pay upwardly to $6750 for a Barrett Light-Fifty .50 cal rifle! Usually price is indicative of quality on a new firearm, with the exception of some 'market bloat' for rarer military style weapons.

2) Laws differ county to county, state to state. Generally, to purchase a long gun (either shotgun/rifle) one must be 18 years old. To purchase a handgun, one must be 21. Some areas have requirements, saftey courses, certifications, FID cards ectectect. Call your town hall/police/sheriff dept. to get the scoop.

3)Traditionally, Rifles are for longer distance, shotguns are for 'area' targets, and pistols/hanguns for up close an' personal. Depending on what caliber rifle you have will determine the kind of game you want to hunt if that is your purpose. Shotguns can be used for all kinds of game, depending on the type of shot-shell you use. Pistols, while some can be used for hunting, are more designed with self defense in mind.

In order to really consider a weapons purchase, I'd sign up for a Hunter Safety Course. They teach you in detail (the good ones) all the info you need to know, then after a practical test, you can get certified. My own advice, don't purchase a piece without first having tried the weapon or at least the caliber of the gun you want. (Would you buy a car without a test drive?) Some women just cannot handle certain calibers. This is no dis on the female of the species or sexist statement. Bigger does not always mean better. Don't let the guy behind the counter try and tell you otherwise. Find someone who knows his or her shit to go shopping with you.

happy shooting

-- Billy-Boy (Rakkasn@Yahoo.com), October 05, 1999.

If you've never owned a gun, I'd recommend a Ruger 10/22 semi-automatic 22 rimfire with a 4 power scope. Should be around $200 at Walmart or similar places. A semiauto might not be best for a rank amateur to learn with, but this type of 22 is inexpensive, popular, reliable and accurat. A 22 is light and has light recoil and isn't real noisy so will be easy to learn with. Next, as a defensive weapon, get a 12 or 20 gauge pump shotgun like a Mossburg 500 or Remington 870, for $300 or so. Check out references such as those suggested above also, and the suggestion of hunter safety class is excellent- should be a top priority if you haven't used a gone before or recently.

-- Jim (jiminwis@yahoo.com), October 05, 1999.

Well, that's an open-ended question. :) The answer to what is the best kind of gun, of course, is "The one you shoot with." :) If you don't practice with the gun you buy, it makes no difference if it is a high-end expensive gun, or a cheapo saturday night special. That said, once you get experience shooting, you will usually notice a difference between the higher end "tuned" guns and the cheapo ones. The higher end ones being as accurate as you are (ie. an expert can take your gun and hammer in nails with it while you can get your shots somewhere in the black in the middle of the target), and the cheapo ones usually being less accurate than you are. :) Of course, it also depends on what you need or want the gun for.

1) How much do they cost? Depends on where you live. Depends on what you want. My .45 EAA Witness Compact cost $280. My shotgun cost $200. However, you can pay a lot more for them (I've seen .45's go for $1000+ for example). My buddy bought an AR-15 rifle for around $800. I've definitely spent more in ammunition than for the guns over the last few months. You'll probably do the same unless you get a lower caliber weapon (I wanted the stopping power of a .45, some women like .38's because of less recoil, etc. Lower calibers are cheaper ammowise.). Next, some areas are more expensive than others. Some areas you just can't buy them at all. At least not legally.

2) How hard is it to buy one? Depends on where you live. Some areas you can't buy certain guns (ie. California, New York City, etc.) legally. Certain areas have different restrictions (Chicago, Washington DC, you can't buy handguns). California, you need to take a Basic Firearms Safety test before you can buy a handgun (you don't need it for shotguns or rifles), etc. You'd probably be best off finding a local gun shop to ask about that.

3) Purposes of various guns (these are all my opinion with my experience at the range. Your mileage may vary if you are actually shooting at someone. :) ). Handguns - short range. 0 to 50 feet maybe (depends on the size of the gun, shorter barrels mean shorter range of accuracy for most people). I have been practicing with my .45 and am fairly accurate at up to 30 feet at the range, but after that I usually fall apart accuracywise.

Shotguns - Short range to medium depending on your ammunition, 0 to 70 feet for buckshot (00 size), 0 to 30 feet for birdshot. I've been able to be fairly consistent up to 300 feet with slugs at an outdoor range.

Rifles - Depends on the type of rifle. Usually they are meant to reach out and touch someone. I've been fairly accurate with a buddy's AR-15 up to about 900 feet with a scope. I don't have one myself because I live in an urban area, and most .223 ammo will slice through walls like a hot knife through butter.

My recommendation would be to check out the phone book for the Firearms section (or Sporting Goods) and see if there are any stores you can visit. Also check for ranges where you can practice at.

-- James Collins (jacollins@thegrid.net), October 05, 1999.

I'll assume that self-defense is the primary purpose you're considering purchasing a firearm.

You can never go wrong for a home defense gun if you buy a pump- action shotgun such as a Remington 870 or Mossberg 500. Either can be had for $300 or less at Wal*Mart or K-Mart. Look for one with a twenty-inch barrel, to make handling the gun easier if you must use it indoors.

I find that for first-time gun owners, the Mossberg is a bit easier to use for defensive use. The safety is located in the "natural" position where the thumb is resting on the selector and the safety indicator is visible to the shooter. The Remington has the safety located in more of a "hunting weapon" location, where the shooter has to take his finger off the trigger, move the safety and then put his finger back on the trigger.

Both guns share the agressive visual impact only a pump shotgun has and have that sound that puts your hair on end when a round is jacked into the chamber. Never underestimate the psychology of those two features.

A standard sized twelve gauge would be the most commonly available version, but if the intended user is a smaller person a "youth model" twelve gauge or a twenty gauge model should be considered. For primary use, standard (NOT magnum) shells with #4 shot loads are your best bet.

Good luck on your purchase and may you never have to use it.

WW

-- Wildweasel (vtmldm@epix.net), October 05, 1999.

I hear that gun and ammo prices are going up. I am told that this is due in part to new regulations at UPS and USPS. Several gun dealers have confirmed that they will be raising prices shortly. Some dealers expect that December sales will be such that they can afford to double the price of their guns for those last minute Christmas-Y2K purchases.

As I don't own a gun, nor could I afford them right now if I wanted them, the following has been recommended to me: AR 10 T sniper rifle (.308), AR15 rifle (.223), Remington 870 12 gauge, and CZ 9 mm pistol. The total would be about $6,000. Of course, this is a way to pricey for me.

Got pepper spray?

Sincerely, Stan Faryna

-- Stan Faryna (faryna@groupmail.com), October 05, 1999.

Amy,

Your questions got you a lot of good advice but from a lot of different gun-savy levels. If you're as new to guns as your questions suggest my advice is to avoid them. Your thoughts about having to kill someone (that is what we're talking about, right?) needs a lot more time to marinate. Maybe, think friends not enemies in your prep?

-- Carlos (riffraff1@cybertime.net), October 05, 1999.

Amy, I just bought my first gun. Read gun magazines, went to some gun shows,talk to people. Then I went to a gun shooting range practiced on a .357 magnum and 9mm semi. I bought a Glock 23 (.40 caliber) with 2 magazines (holds 13 bullets) cost: $450.00. I'll be taking lessons and am applying for a conceale weapons license. In addition to gardening, I now have a new hobby.

-- quielty (quietly@preparing.com), October 05, 1999.

Amy.....e-mail me here & I will answer your questions.

-- Richard (mrhydde@hotmail.com), October 05, 1999.

Amy,

I'm in the same boat. I've just decided to get firepower.

Take what Wildweasel said, and what Carlos said and put them together, and I think you'll come to the same conclusion that I did, that a pump action shotgun is the only way to go. I'm not to keen on the idea of shooting someone, but I'm hopping that if I get real good at snapping that pump, the intimidation factor will do the job. I'm no gun expert, but I have it on good authority that shotguns are noisier than anything else. The noise of a warning shot might make a lot of gremlins scatter, too.

Remember though, as I keep telling myself, if you point a gun at someone, be prepared to do something with it, as you have probably passed a point of no return.

There's a Mossberg Pump at K-Mart, for $169.00. I have a friend who is pretty much a gun expert and he recommended the Winchester 1300 Defender, which sells in the 200-230 range. He said the Mossberg was pretty good, too, though.

-- Bokonon (bok0non@my-Deja.com), October 05, 1999.

Bokonon/Amy,

Brandishing establishes what you have but not what you'll do. Unfired, guns make lousy weapons. Mentally crossing the Rubicon of homicide must be part of this kind of prep. That's hard. I could kill over my grandchild's food but not my own, I think.

I'm diversing from your questions and apologize. No whimp here honest. Wild Weasel's advice is excellent. When he says No.4 that's Buck (27 pellets) not game load. Would load alternate No.4 buck with rifled slugs myself.

-- Carlos (riffraff1@cybertime.net), October 05, 1999.

Amy,

I was gun shy for my close to 40 years, but I decided that having and not needing was a better position to be in than the other way around. I've plinked around with a .22 for years, but never considered it a truly lethal weapon for anything except squirrels and the occasional skunk. Granted, a well placed shot could probably be deadly for the humanoid, but generally, I felt I needed more firepower if personal defense was my goal. So a few months ago I was asking the same questions as you are. I am still learning... but here is my take on it.

Before buying a handgun, I thought I'd best try firing one to see what it was like. My first experience at the gun range with a friend and his pistol was quite un-nerving. It has improved considerably with more practice. Basically, my fear came from feeling like I didn't fully know what I was doing, and was quite afraid of doing something wrong and hurting someone. Definately, if you purchase, take a basic course.

I have had the Mossberg pump shotguns recommended to me so many times (by friends and gun shops alike) that I figure you probably can't go wrong with one. The shorter barrels are better for use inside a house, where a longer barrel could be ungainly. I don't have one yet, but will soon.

I researched various handguns, went to the range and rented a few different types, and talked to friends who owned. I decided a Glock was best for me, and that a handgun would be my first purchase. Should things get bad enough that I would need to carry something with me, a handgun is obviously easier to do this with. (yes, I know this is illegal in most places, but if it gets that bad, a gun in the hand will be worth more than the laws in the books... "stop or I'll try and get hold of a cop..."). A handgun also works for home defense. A shotgun will be my next purchase, after which time the handgun can go with me if needed, and the spouse will have the shotgun at home.

I decided my first purchase would be a Glock 19, 9mm semi automatic handgun, for about $480 + tax. It comes with two 10 round clips. 15 round clips can be had, but the are not made any more (except for law enforcement from what I hear) and if you find one it will cost almost 3 times as much as the new 10 round clips.

The Glock model 19 is compact, but not so small that it is hard to hold on to. Glock reliability is said to be top notch, and one thing you don't want to have is a problem when you really need it to work right. Glocks do not have a traditional "safety" like most people think of. Once loaded, there is nothing to stop the trigger from being pulled (there is a type of safety, which should prevent misfires if it is dropped, built into the trigger itself). This lack of safety was a bit scary at first, because it gives the perception that the gun is "less safe". I now see it differently. I figure if the gun is loaded, it will fire - I don't have to worry if I took the safety off or not, something I don't want to have to think about if I'm already in a bad enough situation that the gun is out. Having a safety might actually be less safe for those of us who are not around guns a lot - it's one more thing that might go wrong, i.e. "but I thought the safety was on when I pulled the trigger". There's no guessing about the Glock - if it is loaded and you pull the trigger, it will go off. Thinking about it this way might actually be safer for those of us who are less practiced with their gun. Something else I liked is that the trigger pull is always the same. Some guns (depending on how they have been loaded) will have a longer pull for the first shot (because the trigger is also cocking the hammer), and then subsequent shots require very little trigger travel for the gun to fire. With the Glock, it is consistent each time (although there is also a way to use it with the short pull after the first shot, if desired). I seemed to me that, again, for the occasional user, a consistent pull was desireable. I chose a Glock because it is no muss, no fuss, easy to take apart to clean, and easy to understand. They are bit pricey, but for me usability was my ultimate consideration.

Best wishes on making your decision. There are many choices out there, and if this is a Y2K related purchase, time is running out. You will want to do more than buy it before the end of the year - don't forget that you will need practice with it as well.

agyg

-- annie_git_yur_gun (prep_now@r_pay.later), October 06, 1999.

Some of the points others have been made are very good. You need to think seriously on whether you could kill another person or not. Ignore what you see in the movies about wounding people, etc. If you shoot someone, assume you are going to kill them. If you don't think you can do it, don't get a gun. And don't feel bad about it. A lot of new recruits have died in the miscellaneous wars because mentally speaking, they couldn't kill someone.

On my side, I have made the decision that if someone is attacking me, I will do what it takes to defend myself and my family. Of course, until it actually happens, you can say whatever you want. :)

Finally, as another note on the side of getting a gun. Considering the way the laws are going, it might be a "Get one now or you won't be able to get one later." Sort of like the banks. Get your money out beforehand or risk the possibility of not being able to get it out at all.

-- James Collins (jacollins@thegrid.net), October 06, 1999.

One danger not mentioned so far is the change in your attitude that a gun can bring. If you have one, and feel protected by having one, then you will take chances that you would not take without it. The exact chance you would take, the circumstances, are unpredictable. But to the extent that a weapon makes you feel better, you WILL take more risks.

Heinlein, I think it was, wrote a story about space cadets stranded on a planet, and said that the armed ones were the first to die. Made sense to me, space cadets aside.

I recommend that people NOT buy weapons for Y2k, because they probably increase their own risks by doing that. You need to think like a rabbit, not a lion. Weapons in untrained hands can be dropped, or accidentally discharged while cleaning. Weapons in young men's hands makes them stupid - I think there's a chemical transfer, possibly from the gun grease.

When I took my nephews shooting a while back, the first thing I showed them was how to make a gun safe. I loaded the weapons with orange plastic bullets in the chamber and magazine, and had them unload them several times. I'd suggest you show everyone in your home how to do that, if you get a firearm. Once my nephews could do that, then we moved on to real bullets.

If you want a gun, and can afford only one, I'd suggest the Ruger 10-22. It's rock solid, costs maybe $150, everyone in your house will be able to shoot it first try, I've yet to have my first jam, and you can easily buy enough ammo to practice, practice, practice. It is not a major caliber and many will scoff at it, but a small weapon that you're good with is better than a cannon you're afraid of.

-- bw (home@puget.sound), October 06, 1999.

Anyone have any suggestions about which brands or models of pistol are most reliable? I have two semiauto rifles and they work fine, but I keep hearing about pistols jamming. Are most jams caused by things you can control, such as poor maintanance, cheap ammo, not holding the gun firmly, or are they just random?

-- biker (y2kbiker@worldnet.att.net), October 06, 1999.

I am new to this myself, and by no means an expert, but when I was looking, the word I got was that if you stick with the big names (S&W, Ruger, Beretta, Colt, etc.) you will most likely end up with a reliable pistol. I went with Glock for many reasons, including many endorsements from friends and dealers alike; the fact that NATO uses them; 9 mm is a popular caliber right now (ammo readily available), the simplicity of the Glock design, and the aforementioned functional aspects in my previous post. In the last month I have run over 1000 rds through it with not a single misfire, stove pipe, or any problem whatsoever (Winchester 115 gr. "Win-Clean" rounds for practice. Wal- Mart sells 'em real cheap, a box of 50 for $6.97). So far, I'm very happy with my choice (Glock 19). Note: when I first attempted to order one of these about 3 months ago, I was told a week to 10 days to get it in. But I also heard that Glock had just received a big order from some country's military, and it might be tough to get one. After waiting 2 months and still not having anything, I went out looking all over in my area and couldn't find one. When one dealer did get one in I cancelled my original order and snapped it up. All the shops were telling me the model 19 is very popular and getting harder to find ("We think it is something to do with Y2K" they said....). 'nuf said.

agyg

-- annie_git_yur_gun (prep_now@r_pay.later), October 07, 1999.

James C. makes a good point, and it is something I seriously thought about. Do I think I could kill someone? Today it seems like a difficult thing to fathom. Visualizing myself in a time when the basic tenets of society have broken down, the answer becomes clearer. Basically a pacifist in todays day to day life, I have no doubt that should it be necessary, I will do what I need to do to protect myself and my family. When it comes down to "us or them", I don't want them to make my choice for me. If I still choose to let them have the upper hand, it will be by my choice and not theirs (hopefully) - at least I was in the position to make a choice.

BW makes an excellent point about attitude. I must admit that you do feel like your options are different when you have a gun - keeping a clear head is a must. I read some things in my gun manual that stick with me, and are reinforced by a incident from my childhood. The book states to always treat a gun as if it were loaded, and to always check the gun when it is placed in your hands, verifying whether or not it is loaded. Even if someone hands you a gun that is not loaded, check it again yourself. Doing so puts you in control of what happens, not the person who handed it to you and thought it was not loaded. That incident from my childhood? It was a bb rifle, and the casualty was my bedroom window. I had taken out the magazine, but didnt realize that one bb always remained in the rifle. Of course I was messing around with it, and although I knew enough to never aim a gun at a person (Dad made sure we understood that) I didnt worry about aiming it at the window. Boy was I surprised when the window blew out - I didnt even realize what happened at first. That little experience burned into my brain the truth that you dont aim a gun at anything you dont want to shoot, regardless of whether or not you think it is loaded. Follow those simple rules (always check the gun when you take possession, dont point it at anything you dont want to shoot) and you wont blow your head off cleaning it.

agyg

-- annie_git_yur_gun (prep_now@r_pay.later), October 07, 1999.

Bokonon,

I'm no gun expert, but I have it on good authority that shotguns are noisier than anything else. The noise of a warning shot might make a lot of gremlins scatter, too.

Firing a warning shot is a VERY bad idea. If you fire a gun in a residential area you'd better be doing it in the immediate defense of your life. Tell the cops that you fired a warning shot and you might find yourself arrested for inappropriately discharging a firearm. It has happened before.

-TECH32-

-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), October 07, 1999.

Wow! Thanks for all the good answers. Why do I want a gun? Security. If I wake up in the middle of the night, my husband is away on a business trip, I hear somebody downstairs, I go to investigate and find someone menacing one of my children, I want to have something shiny and metal in my hand. It's considered self- defense once they've entered your house.

Also I was thinking small game, large game.

I think a shotgun sounds good. I didn't realize you could shoot up to 900 feet with rifles - pretty impressive.

-- Amy Leone (leoneamy@aol.com), October 07, 1999.

Actually, Amy, you want something dull and nonreflective in your hand. Better in your TWO hands, hence a shotgun or rifle. Whatever you choose, get something you are comfortable with, and PRACTICE. You need to be able to load and shoot in the dark, you need to feel NO FEAR of the recoil. In a small room a shotgun or any major caliber can make a heckuva bang and a BIG flash, and you may be deafened and night-blind for some time afterward.

BTW, lots of police forces are buying Glocks, and selling HUGE numbers of Beretta and Taurus (Beretta copy) PT92's, which I consider the best pistol ever made. You can pick one up pretty cheap, 15-round mags and all. These pistols have a useful life in excess of a quarter-million rounds, and some are virtually unfired. (Note - I've heard that a Glock may misfeed in a woman's hands - it needs a certain amount of weight in the hand and forearm of the shooter, in order for the recoil to work properly.)

Don't buy on a whim, get advice from friends who have guns, and do it all quickly.

-- bw (home@puget.sound), October 07, 1999.

A water gun with Tabasco Sauce is the best gun. It hurts like hell!

If you use a regular gun and kill someone, what are you going to do with the body?

If you leave it laying around and it is Martial Law, the troops will drag you out of your home and put you in prison and you may never get out!

-- bbb (bbb@bbb.com), October 08, 1999.

bbb,

OK, let me ask you a question... A bad guy enters your house and you shoot him with your tabasco gun, piss him off and he shoots you with a real gun, you die... what is he going to do with your body????

Never bring a toy to a gunfight...

growlin'...

The Dog

-- The Dog (Desert Dog@-sand.com), October 08, 1999.

that tobasco watergun thing is a foolhardy gamble that the perp is not wearing glasses.

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), October 08, 1999.

Amy, there is a LOT of FINE advice here. i AM concerned about your answer to the question on why. Guns do NOT provide security. Guns do NOT provide security. (Go back and read that again).

Now, what they DO provide is, after sufficient training, and practice, at least one more option. that option is to kill someone.

PERIOD.

End of Story.

There are lots of dumb things that can be said, and lots of dumb reasons advanced for gun ownership, but the only one that is consistent with the technology is "To kill someone". this may be wholly apropriate in certain situations. It is up to the gun owner/bearer to know which are and which situations are NOT apropriate, and NOT to mix them up.

/rant mode

Sorry about that, didn't really mean to come down like the proverbial ton-'o-bricks but you NEED to use that mindset.

Chuck, who will exercise the new 870 next weekend, and is NOT looking forward to next Monday with the arthritis.

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), October 11, 1999.