I asked athese two questions on 9/29, but had no responses. Can anyone answer them? Thanks in advance: Do various states have differing laws on whether or not such a company can deliver same to you if you are an apartment dweller? This has been an important concern to me. Another related question: if one pours from a smaller into a larger container, is there the possibility of causing ignition through a spark or whatever...or is this a safe procedure? No one has been able to answer these questions among my acquaintances who are recently GI. Thanks again!

-- Elaine Seavey (Gods1sheep@aol.com), September 29, 1999.

-- Elaine Seavey (Gods1sheep@aol.com), October 04, 1999

Answers

Maybe the reason no-one answered is that your questions CAN'T be answered in black and white.

I don't know about "various states". In WI there is no laws regarding this --- I doubt there are in most --- lets not make the US out to be more of a totalitarian country than it already is! I would go ahead until I'm told differently.

Pouring Kerosene: quite safe, but not absolutely safe. Kerosene gives off comparatively little fumes, but you should still exexcise care. I would'nt have any hesistation in transferring it, but wouldn't do it under a "bug zapper"!

-- Jon Johnson (narnia4@usa.net), October 04, 1999.

I was riding by the local firehouse in Brooklyn, NY and asked one of the firemen if it was legal to store kerosene in the house. First he said that if there was any kind of a fire and you had any kind of liquid fuel stored inside your house you could kiss your insurance policy goodby. When I repeated my question about whether it was LEGAL he replied that it was not legal anywhere in New York State.

-- Dennis Law (PaulLaw@aol.com), October 04, 1999.

The MSDS (Material Safety and Data Sheet) on kerosene says kero has a flashpoint of 100 degrees F. I would be VERY CAREFUL about sparking when I was transfering fuel.

-- Mitch (gettingready@NEOhio.com), October 04, 1999.

I have used Kerosine (spelled sine or sene) for several years. It does not catch fire readily. I've purposefully poured a lot of it on a concrete driveway and thrown matches on it, held a propane torch to it, started a wood fire on it. Only the wood fire started to burn some it. Why? kerosine, like parafin wax, needs to be evaporated before it burns. Pour a little kero on a piece of carpet and you have a big fire hazard! Pour a gallon on your vinyl kitchen floor and you only ruin your wax job and have a smelly kitchen (BTW, I use Dawn dish soap to wash hands with after handling kero to remove most/all the smell). THe wood fire burned some, because the burnt wood, becoming more porous, absorbed some of the puddle kero and then acted like a wick.

It's the wicking action of a heater's wick, or a carpet floor, or a piece of clothing that allows kero to burn. It does not burn as fast as gasoline, but caution must be used still. But it's overall not nearly as dangerous as gasoline. Gas fumes ignite with a spark very well (a spark plug in a car, a light switch being turned on, etc.). But kero fumes won't ignite, just smell a lot. I've ignited gas fumes and tried to ignite kero in several creative ways. Only wicking burns it. In my (in-)experience.

Maybe this post gets "flamed", so here's a rational caveat for the stupid: This is my experience. I am not a professional. Not guarenteed. Your mileage will vary. don't do anything!

-- Programmer Farmer (seven_children@home.org), October 04, 1999.

Kerosene is safer than gasoline, but it can explode under the right circumstances. All it takes is the proper air/fuel ratio and a spark, then KABOOM !

I am an aircraft mechanic, and work in jetliner fuel tanks. Jet fuel is esentially kerosene, and you would not believe the proceedures involved with open fuel tanls. We ventilate the tanks for 24 hours before entering them. We also use an "explosive" meter to check for residual fuel vapor. Also, all flashlights entering the tank must be certified as "explosion proof".

Kerosene builds static electricity faster than does gasoline during fuel transfers (my observation). I have been transfering fuel with a vinyl hose and been able to feel static discharges to my hand from the fuel hose.

If , say, your kero can has been sitting in the sun, and the metal is warm, odds are you have some positive vapor pressure built up in the can. Any spark around the opening could cause a flash.

Remember, when you see a jet aircraft "explode" in a fireball, what you are seeing is kerosene burning.

Just be careful....

-- Justtryntohelp (beenthere@donethat.com), October 04, 1999.

The kerosene I buy comes cheaper than most jet fuels. in Oregon, there are no laws on teh books against storing kerosene indoors (I have a few 55 gal drums of the stuff under the shed behind our cottage) but I second the observation that the Fire Marshall and the insurance adjuster will not look favorably upon me in the event the place goes up in smoke -- I'm presuming ignition from some other source. I've been experimenting with the kerosene in Alladin lamps, Petromax lamps, blow torches, kerosene heaters, etc. over the last year plus. My conclusions support those of the Poster who said its safe to spill a gallon on the kitchen floor. The stuff is very stable and can be ignited in liquid form only with a handful of matches. I have found it is possible and even common to extinguish the lit matches in liquid kerosene, in the effort to e.g., light a kerosene blowtorch. A blowtorch, like the Petromax for kerosene, has a "pre-burner" specifically designeded to heat the liquid kerosene to the point of vaporization, at which point it is more combustible. As covered above. The liquid kerosene is nearly useless as a fuel it is so stable; but this characteristic makes it ideal for home storage and -- in my opinion -- for Y2K. IT is my fuel of choice, and I've got 400 gals. From what I've seen I frankly would not be concerned for "sparking" the stuff into ignition -- but I'll try doing just that this week and get back to you with the results. If you don'1t hear from me .... Meanwhile, I would still have reservations about storing any liquid combustibles in an apartment, but kerosene beats all others, and numerous kerosene heaters I've seen are approved for home use: some of these have open trays (reservoirs) of kerosene exposed to room activities, etc. Recommend checking out the websites of a few manufacturers, like Alpaca. It is my impression after working with this stuff, that kerosene is the farthest thing you can get from an explosive fuel, and still have a combutible one. Kerosene is never labeled "explosive" but only "flammable" and for good reason: and I do not believe it would explode even under an"out- sourced" fire. If you store kerosense, I recommend 5 gal drums of K- 1 for this purpose. Also recommend adding 1/2 oz. methyl alcohol -- available through your pharamcist or maybe a farm supply store -- to every 5 gals of kerosene, to aid complete combustion: kerosene ordinarily burns with a odorous residue/smoke, that many people find irritating to the lungs -- especially over time. It gives my wife headaches. Addition of methyl alcohol enables total combution -- somehow -- and you can then use kerosene in your Alladin lamps or any other appliance, without the noxious smell. Methyl alcohol comes scented from a few manufacturers. Brand names I know include Kero- Cleen and Wick-Cleaner.

-- Roch Steinbach (rochsteinbach@excite.com), October 04, 1999.

Jet fuel is about .60 / gal to the big boys now, wish I could score some kero for that.

-- Justryntohelp (beenthere@donethat.cim), October 04, 1999.

Is methyl alcohol the same as wood alcohol? Or rubbing alcohol?

-- (a;brecht@ndak.net), October 04, 1999.

On the point of just the right fuel/air mixture being very flammable, I recall that plain grain dust and chaff becomes *explosive* in grain elevators when the right mixture of dust and air are ignited by a spark. But mostly, wheat chaff and dust are not that dangerous to store and handle. Kerosine is certainly more flammable than chaff, and more dangerous, but I think it's on another catagory then gasoline. Fuel oil (a close extraction of oil to diesel fuel) is flammable but in normal usage and storage is not so very dangerous. In Michigan there are still many home with 250 gallon steel tanks in basements for storing fuel oil for furnaces.

The poster pointing out the insurance risk is likely right - if you store 5 gallons of kero for a heater or lantern you might have problems collecting on a claim. But in real risk, I myself would not worry at all about storing kerosine in an apartment in 5 gallon cans. I prefer the plastic type because they don't rust. I would certainly have the cans in a space that offers ventilation, like a closet off an outdoor patio. I would (and do) fill the cans up as full as possible without spilling, to minimize the amount of air in the can, which minimizes the amount of condensation and water getting into the fuel. water settles to bottom, so when taking fuel out with a plastic hand pump I do not place the intake tube at the bottom (though this is not necessary I think).

Kerosine is flammable. It burns. The fumes smell. But with common sense it is a fairly safe fuel to store and use. And because it's not refined as much as diesel fuel or gasoline, it lasts a long time without deteriorating. I am not a chemical engineer, I've just used the stuff for about 12 years in heating and lighting occaisionally.

I've also regularly used it to wet an old rag tied to a metal pole to make a burning torch to burn down wasp nests or catapiller tents in trees. I've used it to take price sticker stickum off items (works great! and then dish soap to take kerosine off). I've used it start fires of junk wood and have "played" with it to see how I could ignite it. I've tried lighting tin cans full of it with matches (puts them out like a can of water). I've tried #10 cans with a little kero in the bottom and letting the fumes accumulate and tried to ignoite them with matches and propane torch. I have only been able to burn it when it could "wick".

Is parafin wax dangerous?

Take a tuna can, fill with sand. heat can of sand over a fire (stove, propane torch, campfire). toss chunks of parafin wax on top of hot sand. the wax melts and soaks into the sand. keep heating sand. hold match to top of can, next to hot sand soaked with melted wax. It'll burn! The sand acts like a wick and heats the wax to the point of evaporating and the gasous wax burns, just like what happens in a candle. Or a kerosine heater. Keep tossing chunks of wax onto sand, they melt into sand and then evaporate and burn. A large size tune can can produce a flame the entire width of can and about 2 feet tall. A smoky flame.

It's just parafin wax....

Kerosine is more flammable, but not _that_ much more flammable.....

In My humble opinion.... (IMHO)

Ofcourse, stupid people lack commen sense, and they can and will harm themselves or others. But I don't think the thinking person need limit themselves to the boundries of safe behavior for stupid people. Reclaim our country, learn to think for yourself and take responsibility for your own actions. THank you.

-- Programmer Farmer (seven_children@home.org), October 05, 1999.

Wow! I am really impressed with the knowledge and experience of each of you responders. This is the info I have really needed, and I truly appreciate it all. Roch, I look forward to hearing the results of the "experiment," and that you are okay after it. Thanks, all!

-- Elaine Seavey (Gods1sheep@aol.com), October 05, 1999.

Altho I'd prefer not to have the risk of storing a large amount of kerosene, I prefer it to the thought of the alternative---freezing to death, this winter. I called my insurance agent, before I got my kerosene tank, to see if there is any reason, insurance-wise, why I can't keep kerosene in my garage. He seemed to be a GI....said that's what he's doing. I did buy a couple of large fire extinguishers, and will be very careful, but it I felt it ws a case of darned if I do, and darned if I don't.

-- Jo Ann (MaJo@Michiana.com), October 05, 1999.

Allright: tonight I ran the test in my garage, amidst every type of flammableand combustible mateiral known to man, inculding dozens of burlap and hemp bags draped on overhead rods; stacks of old newspapers, collapsed carboard boxes, loads of rags, etc. Hazardous enough. I bought a gal. of K-1(Pearl) kerosene for the purpose in order to leave my Kero drums sealed until the .... Time Appointed. I ran the test by splashing an ounce of kero in an old cast iron griddle, and it spllattered onto everything: conidtions ripe. Since I couldn't find the flint/steel striker for sparks, I started with a disposable lighter: struck a flame, and held the flame to the liquid sloshing around in the griddle. I burnt my thumb on the flame but got no reaction from the kero. Again and again without results. This made me wonder how it is I ever got the kero in the pre-burner of the blowtorch to take, so I grabbed a blowtorch (like a good welding torch these may come in handy in a winter outage for thawing pipes), filled it, overfilled it (spashsing more kerosene over everything in the path of gravity, and then filled the reservoir/trough of the pre-burner. More splashes. I then took the kero outside and held the lighter to the surface of the liquid kero in the castiron pre-burner reservoir of the blowtorch. NOTHING. again NOTHING and NOTHING. This stuff is impossibly stable. IN order to get the stuff to ignite, I was obliged to hold the flame of my disposable lighter to the bottom of the reservoir, and heat the cast iron and the kero for about 20 seconds with a constant flame, at which point the kero ignited with a cool blue flame, which licked around for a while and finally heated up like flames should. Yellow. I suppose the heat was driving the kero to the point of evaporation. In th4e old days I presume a rag dipped in kerosene would have been lighted (a crude wick) and used to accomplish the same thing: warming the pre-burner to get the liquid kero to vaporize.

-- Roch Steinbach (rochsteinbach@excite.com), October 05, 1999.

Allright: tonight I ran the test in my garage, amidst every type of flammableand combustible mateiral known to man, inculding dozens of burlap and hemp bags draped on overhead rods; stacks of old newspapers, collapsed carboard boxes, loads of rags, etc. Hazardous enough. I bought a gal. of K-1(Pearl) kerosene for the purpose in order to leave my Kero drums sealed until the .... Time Appointed. I ran the test by splashing an ounce of kero in an old cast iron griddle, and it spllattered onto everything: conidtions ripe. Since I couldn't find the flint/steel striker for sparks, I started with a disposable lighter: struck a flame, and held the flame to the liquid sloshing around in the griddle. I burnt my thumb on the flame but got no reaction from the kero. Again and again without results. This made me wonder how it is I ever got the kero in the pre-burner of the blowtorch to take, so I grabbed a blowtorch (like a good welding torch these may come in handy in a winter outage for thawing pipes), filled it, overfilled it (spashsing more kerosene over everything in the path of gravity, and then filled the reservoir/trough of the pre-burner. More splashes. I then took the kero outside and held the lighter to the surface of the liquid kero in the castiron pre-burner reservoir of the blowtorch. NOTHING. again NOTHING and NOTHING. This stuff is impossibly stable. IN order to get the stuff to ignite, I was obliged to hold the flame of my disposable lighter to the bottom of the reservoir, and heat the cast iron and the kero for about 20 seconds with a constant flame, at which point the kero ignited with a cool blue flame, which licked around for a while and finally heated up like flames should. Yellow. I suppose the heat was driving the kero to the point of evaporation. In th4e old days I presume a rag dipped in kerosene would have been lighted (a crude wick) and used to accomplish the same thing: warming the pre-burner to get the liquid kero to vaporize.

Understand that even the reservoir is just buring the vaporizing kerosene: and the heat of the flame evidently continues the process of vaporization/burn at a very slow and controlable rate: there was liquid kerosene in the reservoir goin unburned the entire time the flames were consuming the vapors over the reservoir: something you don;t do with gas or diesel. LIKEWISE I was able to blow the flames out with a sharp breath and the unburned liquid kero reminaed in the reservoir. Stable enough. LAter on I found the flint&steel striker and tried sparks with no resuilt at all. Okay enough already. But I turned on the blow torch and tried to ignite the steram of kero that squirts out, without result again. it is my impressin that orange oil squeezed from a fresh orange peel is more flammable than room temp kerosene squirting from a blow torch, and if you would keep oranges opn your kitchen counter you should feel comforatble keeping kerosene around. The only thing is you would need to watch exposure to heat so that the pressure in the drums does not rise from vaporization, etc. Because in the vaprous state this stuff will take off

-- Roch Steinbach (rochsteinbach@excite.com), October 05, 1999.

Elaine:

Unusual questions for an apartment dweller, but I will trust you to know what you want.

1) You can only get fuel or kerosene deliveries if the tank and amount of the purchase warrants the trip by the distributer, and most will only add fuel to tanks that meet local codes or general accepted practices. Suggestion is to simply buy and store what you need in a few five gallon fuel cans, metal or plastic. Leave room for expansion, only put five gallons in a can rated five gallons.

2) Yes, you can safely pour it from one container to another. Use a plastic funnel.

Advice: If using a kerosene space heater, you must have a constant supply of fresh air entering the apartment. In a closed space, the heater will remove (burn) oxygen you need to breathe and produce carbon monoxide which you cannot breathe and can cause you serious harm. If your apartment has enough air leaks around the entry door and the windows, etc, that you could leave three burners of a gas stovetop on all the time, you should be OK. Get someone to look at your place and advise you.

Instead of trying to heat a large area, say living room, dining room and kitchen with a large heater, say 23000 btuh, you might want to use a very small heater, say 9000 btuh and just heat one bedroom with its door open. This will also stretch out your fuel supply.

Please find someone that knows what he is doing to look at your place and advise you.

Just get a few of the basic things right and you'll be OK. No guessing.

Regards,

-- Tom Beckner (tbeckner@xout.erols.com), October 06, 1999.

Tom, thank you also for your excellent advice. I plan to follow all this advice very, very carefully, friends. It's not an unusual question for an apartment dweller, Tom, because even we don't wish to freeze to death if the grid goes down, and we cannot have generators. I know several persons who live in condos/apartments who have only that recourse for heating if TSHTF. However, none of us is familiar with heating for ourselves apart from the standard plug-in electric supplemental heaters, when there is a grid up. Thanks again, all!

-- Elaine Seavey (Gods1sheep@aol.com), October 07, 1999.