Based on what people said - I'm going to make two rulings:

1. On a 6 - 1 Vote, every participant must play ALL of the games to qualify. If you submit a score to a game, you are defined as a participant. If you VOTE, you are defined as a participant.

If you do not play all of the games and you votes, you will be decreased one level of voting power for the next tournament(i.e. vote 5 games, 5 pts max(5/5) instead of 10/10). You go back to 10/10 either by participating correctly, or by skipping the next tournament. Second decrement of level is 3/3, Third is 1/1, Fourth is no voting allowed at all.(will automatically go back to third after one tournament) I hope that's something we all can understand... if you don't, let me know.

2. Votes will now be combined if a game is a DIRECT descendant of another. In other words, Ghosts and Goblins and Ghouls and Ghosts' votes will be combined. PacMan and Ms. Pac Man would be combined. 1942, 1943, and 1941 will be combined. However, Outrun and Hangon will not be combined.

The rule stating that there will not be two games of very similar type is now DROPPED - it was intended for situations concerning the rule above.

If you have any objections to these rules or are confused, please mention so here, on the rules voting thread or via email. :)

-- Gameboy9 (goldengameboy@yahoo.com), September 27, 1999

Answers

I think it is a strange rule to consider Pacman and Ms. Pacman the same. I would love to see Ms.Pacman, Jr. Pacman or Super Pacman in the tournement but I do NOT want pacman in the tournament. So what game will it be? The same for games like 1941, 1942, 1943 and 1943kai. I agree the games look the same but there gameplay is different. Even clones of games sometimes have different gameplay. Look at pacman and hangly man for example.

Finally it seems that in this way games with a lot of look-alikes will be in advantage.

For games that are clones and have an identical gameplay it is not more than logical to combine the votes.

-- MvdV (cypr135@knoware.nl), September 28, 1999.

To MvdV: A question: Since you say that you think it's strange that Pacman and Ms. Pacman are considered the same, and since you also say it's logical to combine votes for games that have identical gameplay, I take it that you would not combine Pacman and Ms. Pacman? Why though? Sure, they may require different patterns, but I don't think that really makes gameplay different, or, more to the point, it doesn't make them different TYPES of games.

I think the ruling was made to ensure that the tournament will have a broad selection as far as the different types of games are concerned. To me, all "eat the dots" types of games (Pacman, Ms. Pacman, Jr. Pacman, Lady Bug, etc.) are the same TYPE of game, but I am no expert at all on any of those games, and experts may very well disagree with me.

I could argue that Crazy Kong and Donkey Kong are different games with different gameplay, because the behaviour of the enemies (the AI, or lack thereof, behind them) definitely differs between them, although most people probably won't see it. However, they're the same TYPE of game, and, as much as I'd like to see both in the tournament, I don't think it would be fair to accept both in the tournament.

The tournament is supposed to be an all-round tournament, not a tournament of racing games exclusively, not a tournament of "eat the dots" types of games, not a tournament of ... , so I think it's only fair to have AT MOST ONE representative of every type in the tournament.

Just my opinion. Not intended as a flame.

Groeten, Ben Jos.

-- Ben Jos Walbeehm (walbeehm@walbeehm.com), September 28, 1999.

I should have mentioned that the first ruling is 99.9% solid, the second ruling is not that solid - the vote stands at 2 - 1(with me not voting yet... though I think I'm going to go with the new rule... not official yet)

I think that if we're going to do that though, a person may not combine for example pacman(10 pts) and ms. pacman(9 pts) together and make 19 pts combined, probably making pacman an entry into the tournament with just one vote.

-- Gameboy9 (goldengameboy@yahoo.com), September 28, 1999.

gb, while I don't really agree with either, I can live with the first one, but definately NOT the second one. There is no way in hell you are going to tell me games like Ms. PacMan and say Lock 'n' Chase or Ladybug, or even Jr. PacMan are the same. There is no way these should be combined. If we are combining, only one sport game then, only 1 puzzle game (they are similiar, according to current rule, they are all combined.) By your rule, we would combine centipede with millipede with gorf which would be to galaga and galaxian, to 4dwarriors, to... YOU SEE THE POINT? I personally like how you within 24hrs decided to make rulings, gb... What happened to giving people time?

-- Chris Parsley (cparsley1@hotmail.com), September 28, 1999.

Lady Bug and PacMan would NOT be combined with this possible new rule - nor Lady Bug or Lock N' Chase. Nor Ghost Pilots and 1943 - all examples are made by different companies altogether. PacMan and Ms. PacMan and Jr. PacMan, but NOT PacLand nor PacMania would be combined - the first three are directly related, but the other two aren't(PacLand = Just about super mario brothers, PacMania - 3D Maze Game, not 2D) To do your final example Chris, Centipede and Millipede would be combined. Galaga(which can't be voted this time, we played it last tourney), Galaxian, Galaga '88, and Galaga 3 would be combined. Galaxian and Centipede would NOT be combined. Gorf does a lot of different things other than galaxian, so it would NOT be combined.

To make a long story short(I know... too late), if a game is made by a different company, it would not be combined. If a game has the same theme, yet is different enough in gameplay, it would not be combined, regardless of who made it.

My problem with it is it brings in way too much subjectivity for me to figure out which gets combined and which do not... I can figure out pacman and ms. pacman, or pang/super pang... but what do I do with others? This is why I'm neutral at this time instead of siding.

Well regardless... vote stands at 2 - 2... obviously that second rule is NOT official...

-- Gameboy9 (goldengameboy@yahoo.com), September 28, 1999.

Here's the swing vote to help defeat rule #2. The rule that Chad (I think) proposed was to count originals and clones together for more voting power. BTW, excellent idea!! However, this issue seems to have gotten mixed up with the notion of limiting different TYPES of games in a given tourney.

Thus my suggestion is to 1)count originals and clones together (highest point total within that set gets in) and 2) do not allow more than 2 games of the same type (e.g. puzzle, racing, maze, shooters, etc...)

-- Pat (laffaye@ibm.net), September 28, 1999.

I vote yes to number one.

I vote no for number 2. Ms pacman and pacman are 2 different games, allthough they both have the same theme. I played ghouls and ghosts last night, it is definetly not the same as GnG.

PS: I'll be changing my game votes this weekend.

-- Dave Kaupp (info@kaupp.cx), September 28, 1999.

As long as we go by Lam's answer to the 2nd question, I can work with it fine. That means pacman and pacman fast are together, BUT NOT pacman and mspacman. If this is the case, I am all go. If not, I stay Heck NO!

-- Chris Parsley (cparsley1@hotmail.com), September 28, 1999.

As long as we go by Lam's answer to the 2nd question, I can work with it fine. That means pacman and pacman fast are together, BUT NOT pacman and mspacman. If this is the case, I am all go. If not, I stay Heck NO! ALSO - OFF THOUGHT, but. WHEN DID WE START USING AN ALTERNATE scoring method for Cyberball Regulation??? Currently, they just count by points scored, when the computer goes by Total Margin of Victory to decide it's winner! Your Score - Opponent's score.... Why does everyone ignore that fact in their Cyberball Regulation postings???

-- Chris Parsley (cparsley1@hotmail.com), September 28, 1999.

OK... I believe this is what people are saying: do not mix up pacman and mspacman - but DO mix clones and originals together - I.E. pacman and pacman-fast(clones) will mix together - most votes in that game will get the game, not both. I think I like that idea, so I will put a vote of no to allow direct realatives to the games(I.E. pacman and mspacman), and support mixing of clones(mspacman(6 pts for example), mspacman-fast(8pts), 14 total, mspacman-fast would be played, not mspacman).

The vote now makes 6 votes to 1 against the second ruling - according to the new voting rules, the motion is rejected(I know... quit the formal junk :) )

The new rule is as follows:

The only votes that will be combined together will be a game's original and it's clones. Whichever one gets the most points gets the game submitted into the tournament, but not both.

Next thing: Pat Laffaye alluded that we should have no more than two of one type: racing, shooter, collect em' up, etc. Current rule stands that we'd have no more than one of very specific types: hangon, outrun are similar(checkpoint racers), but say rally bike and F1 Dream would not.(qualifier racers) Granted, this could also be a subjective type, but probably easier to get right than the previous issue...

-- Gameboy9 (goldengameboy@yahoo.com), September 28, 1999.

I wish to say my opinion on this....but seems too late.....after 2 days theese new rules are already passed or discarded.....don't you think you're running too much, gb !?!?

Anyway: 1) too complex....I don't care.... 2) I think clones points should have been combined, but people can vote only 1 game per group.

Just my "late" comment....

-- Cicca (cicca@writeme.com), September 29, 1999.

Hearing everyone (Well, OK, two people) complain about the swiftness with which rulings are reached here, it seems to me that perhaps a change of the rules is in order. MARP is attracting new people, and as such a vote of 9 people would be reached rather quickly. Perhaps it should come under review to allow more people to react before a change to MARP is effected, or a minimum period of time? Granted, in my eyes you don't ~need~ more than two days to make a change. If you're not checking the board that often, hey, tough. ;) The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or something like that.

Looking at the tourney, I see about 20 people I'd consider real competitors (judging from number of games played, I know I'm leaving out those that played 10 and 11), so it's hard to really raise the number of people needed to make a vote. I leave that for gb to puzzle out.

Just don't kill anybody. ;)

Brian

-- Brian McLean (bmclean84@hotmail.com), September 29, 1999.